Mini 533: Something wicked this way comes! Game over!

[Lowell]

I find it just a little bit jarring the way geraintm uses the word "townie" all over the place. Maybe it's nothing, just sayin'.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

[quote="geraintm" townies should be very active and switch their votes around a lot, picking up ne whunches for their suspiscions and dropping tem just as fast? [/quote]

Not necessarily. But I think you ought to vote for whoever you suspect the most and not just FoS, HoS, or whatever other weaker version of vote you prefer, and if that person changes a lot over the course of the day, then it changes a lot. I don't think you should be hesitant to vote too many times.

[Petunho]

After QuickBen came back he made a list of his suspects and surprisingly it included all the players that had voted for him. Yes there was some base for those accusations but being so clear just to put suspicion on all the players voting for him struck really bad on my eye.

Truth. I can't help but feel that people who are bandwagoning quickben either don't want to lynch lowell, or just aren't really paying attention.

And still you put soupfly in the bottom of your scummy list in post 275. And who is your second protown player? Skruffs, whose summary post wasn't that great and based on just that summary(?) you put him in most protown player in your list. Could you explain this?

And you repeat Skuffs innocence again in post 283:

Here you go, lowell. As for "not wanting to get involved in what is happening around you," I don't really think michael or skruffs are scum, so I'm not going to switch my vote off of you. Sounds to me like you expected to be able to lurk through the day and people would forget about you.

Why did you brought Skruffs name again up and stated he wasn't scum? Even more oddly you compared Skruffs to Michel (who really is looking the most protown) when stating they aren't scums. Why was that? I think you make lot of effort to make Skruffs look townie when he really doesn't look that townie.

Soupfly's style of jumping with his votes disturbs and even more he rarely gives his own explanation for his votes. Also the try to buddy up with Michel in post 288 looked weird to me.

[QuickBen]

@Petunho- And the really amusing part is that I just spoke my mind.

1. Did any part of what I had to say about them have anything to do with them voting me?
2. Did their votes on me have any bearing on the points I made against them?
3. Did anything I say ring of falsehood?
4. Should I have tried to find something scummy about someone who wasn't voting me just to include them?
5. Wouldn't doing so be a scummy play?
6. Should I not have included someone I felt might be scummy just so I wasn't making cases on all the people voting me?
7. Wouldn't doing so be a scummy play?

I rest my case.

[Skruffs]

Petunho:
Why does michel look the most townie to you?
It sounds like you are being hypocritical here, accusing TSPN of something you are doing in the same paragraph you are accusing him of doing it in.

For the record, mafia are the only people who have a 'good idea' who is town and who isn't, at this point in the game, unless there's another investigative role or something. So when someone is saying someone else is townie, they are probably 'faux defending' that player, so that if the first player turns up scum, the second player will have more attention put on them.

Just an FYI.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

And still you put soupfly in the bottom of your scummy list in post 275. And who is your second protown player? Skruffs, whose summary post wasn't that great and based on just that summary(?) you put him in most protown player in your list. Could you explain this?

Why did you brought Skruffs name again up and stated he wasn't scum? Even more oddly you compared Skruffs to Michel (who really is looking the most protown) when stating they aren't scums. Why was that? I think you make lot of effort to make Skruffs look townie when he really doesn't look that townie.

Well, like I said, after my first three, the order is fairly arbitrary. Putting soupfly at the bottom was as much as symbolic statement on the zeek and soupfly argument as anything else. As for why I said I didn't think skruffs and michel weren't scum, lowell called me out for "not wanting to get involved in what was happening around me," which I interpreted as skruffs and michel making long posts. So I argued that what was happening around me didn't really affect who I thought was scummy.

[ZeekLTK]

Well we seem to be spinning our wheels here.

Why exactly is NO ONE else suspicious enough of soupfly to vote for him??

[Skruffs]

Maybe I missed the case on him; if you are voting him, I have no reason to though.
Scum.

[ZeekLTK]

Maybe I missed the case on him; if you are voting him, I have no reason to though.
Scum.

Hmmm, he put DS at L-1 after I said I would hammer

and

then immediately said "if he's town..." to imply that he already knows DS is going to be town and he's just trying to get the bandwagon rolling against me for when I do hammer.

I can just imagine the scum's reaction when they see that a townie says "I am going to hammer" another townie. I think he got way overeager trying to take advantage of this and exposed himself.

Plus, I pointed out all of his votes on the other page. In some of them he asks OTHER PEOPLE to MAKE A CASE FOR HIM (like the Petunho vote). This isn't pro-town, it's just taking shots in the dark against people and hoping a bandwagon forms.

We already went over how I'm a miller, I'd really like to hear a good reason why you still don't believe it because it's already been laid out throughout the thread.

[soupfly]

Hmmm, he put DS at L-1 after I said I would hammer

and

then immediately said "if he's town..." to imply that he already knows DS is going to be town and he's just trying to get the bandwagon rolling against me for when I do hammer.

you really are dense aren't you?

ever stop and think that we're both probably townie because scum would have no reason to get caught up in a controversial lynch of a player who was going to get lynched anyway. i've already admitted that maybe my play wasn't great as far as trying to set you up for a scummy move. can't you realize that your entire play to prevent the self-lynching jester from winning was completely ridiculous? are you still trying to convince everybody that its okay to prejustify a move that benefits the town in no way?

people aren't buying my wagon or yours because what we did was more just stupid play rather than scummy play. in my defense i'd been drinking at the time of the post so it made alot more sense to me then. in retrospect it was all a pointless exercise on both our parts. i set you up to do something stupid (which you did), but which brought no tangible benefit to the town because ultimately i probably didn't out scum...just an inexperienced player.

[soupfly]

btw, a miller claim is pointless because nobody can ever verify it. if anything it makes the person look more guilty because it allows for plausible deniability of a guilty investigation.

for those of you who don't know, a miller is a townie who will show up scum if he's ever investigated by a cop.

however a few things to consider. if you are indeed a miller then the time to claim is as soon as the game starts. otherwise it can appear to be an opportunistic ploy by scum who suspect that they've drawn enough attention that they may be investigated. for this reason players often times do not know they are millers at the beginning of the game exactly so that they can not claim early.

in Zeek's case he claimed during twilight of Day 1 when he had a medium amount of pressure on him following DS's lynch. to me this was a bit odd.

[Lowell]

Hmmm, he put DS at L-1 after I said I would hammer

and

then immediately said "if he's town..." to imply that he already knows DS is going to be town and he's just trying to get the bandwagon rolling against me for when I do hammer.

you really are dense aren't you?

ever stop and think that we're both probably townie because scum would have no reason to get caught up in a controversial lynch of a player who was going to get lynched anyway. i've already admitted that maybe my play wasn't great as far as trying to set you up for a scummy move. can't you realize that your entire play to prevent the self-lynching jester from winning was completely ridiculous? are you still trying to convince everybody that its okay to prejustify a move that benefits the town in no way?

people aren't buying my wagon or yours because what we did was more just stupid play rather than scummy play. in my defense i'd been drinking at the time of the post so it made alot more sense to me then. in retrospect it was all a pointless exercise on both our parts. i set you up to do something stupid (which you did), but which brought no tangible benefit to the town because ultimately i probably didn't out scum...just an inexperienced player.

WIFOMiest. Post. Ever.

[MichelSableheart]

Skruffs, why did you bring up the Modus Operandi, and what do you feel can be concluded from it?

69- OGML encourages DS to post his thoughts [looks a bit suspicious]

Why does it look suspicious? As Zeek's quicklynch proved, waiting till L-1 was a bad idea for DS.

Because at the time it looked like he was trying to pass the responsibility of thinking onto someone else. It fits the trend of OGML being around but just passing the ball every time it comes to him.

In post #66, DS states that he'll explain himself when he's at L-1. In post #69, OGML tells DS not to wait till L-1, but post his thoughts now. With the way people were looking at DS at that point in time, I highly doubt he wanted DS to speak so that OGML could follow DS's reasoning.

106- sweatpantsninja votes Sensfan, for same reason as he votes Lowell

He voted you for an unexplained 3rd vote. He voted Sensfan for 2 factual errors. How is that the same reason?

I think what I was referring to was his voting myself and sensfan for not believing the jester thing. But who cares. Either way, he argues that a third vote is dangerous (it isn't) and uses that as a justification for voting me, which is itself opportunistic.

Point is, though, he never voted anyone for not believing the jester thing. Also, as far as I can see, he does not vote you because a third vote is dangerous, he votes you because your third vote is

unexplained

.

113- sweatpantsninja declares DS unlikely to be jester [inconsistent with previous votes]

I don't see the inconsistency. He stated in earlier posts that he didn't believe DS to be either scum or jester. Neither of his two previous votes where made on the assumption that DS was a jester.

That's not how I read his defense of DS.

Then take a look at his posts again. In post #99, he says: "I don't understand the fascination with jester either. . . but I also don't think DS is scum." He says that he doesn't understand the fascination with jester. That's the complete opposite from saying "I think it's likely that DS is a jester". Then, in post #106, he makes absolutely no comments about the likelyhood of DS being a jester. Instead, he says it's unlikely that DS is scum trying to look like a jester in order to not be lynched. Where in these two posts does TSpN say anything that comes even close to "It's likely that DS is a jester"?

I also dislike that Lowell's summary does not include Zeek's suspicion of a jester who has to hammer himself, which explains WHY Zeek hammered almost immediately.

I didn't take the jester thing seriously, as I find it unlikely to exist in a small, normalish game. So I dont' really care what qualifications people put on a role that doesn't exist.

It was Zeek's explanation for his behaviour. In your post, you expressed suspicion of Zeek, while completely ignoring the explanations he gave. IMO, you should at least have mentioned why you believed they weren't sufficient.

Most of Lowell's post #294 is him saying "I don't believe the explanations you've given". There's not much I can say about that. One remark stood out though.

Of course, I could be scum trying to gain a town player's trust. (Zeek, if you decide to trust me, please don't let the sole reason be that I argued in your favour.) However, wouldn't it be a much more logical play for me as scum to keep a bit more low profile and see if the bandwagon against Zeek does indeed reach that mislynch it seems to be heading to?

Again, I disagree. "Keeping a low profile" doesn't work as a means of surviving the game, at least not in one this size. Also, scum needs to earn people's trust... which is the whole point of buddying.

Scum also needs mislynches. Suppose that I had mentioned I didn't like the Zeek wagon, without defending him as boldly as I did. Then the chance of that wagon getting to lynch had been much higher. That's what I mean when I say "keeping a low profile". Scum needs to earn people's trust, but if they can get a mislynch on the way, so much the better for them.

[ZeekLTK]

Of course, I could be scum trying to gain a town player's trust. (Zeek, if you decide to trust me, please don't let the sole reason be that I argued in your favour.) However, wouldn't it be a much more logical play for me as scum to keep a bit more low profile and see if the bandwagon against Zeek does indeed reach that mislynch it seems to be heading to?

Again, I disagree. "Keeping a low profile" doesn't work as a means of surviving the game, at least not in one this size. Also, scum needs to earn people's trust... which is the whole point of buddying.

Scum also needs mislynches.

Suppose that I had mentioned I didn't like the Zeek wagon, without defending him as boldly as I did. Then the chance of that wagon getting to lynch had been much higher. That's what I mean when I say "keeping a low profile". Scum needs to earn people's trust, but if they can get a mislynch on the way, so much the better for them.

Yes they do. I made my miller claim BEFORE night, so that means scum had a chance to talk about it during the night. Most likely they decided I would be the easiest target to go after for Day 2 to get a mislynch.

Therefore, I don't think it's a stretch to look at who voted me to start Day 2 to try to find scum who were hoping to get the bandwagon rolling so they could get their mislynch.

Here was the last vote count where I had the most votes:

Soupfly - 2 (ZeekLTK, OhGodMyLife)

ZeekLTK - 4 (soupfly, TheSweatpantsNinja, Quickben, SensFan)

TheSweatpantsNinja - 1 (Lowell)
Lowell - 1 (MichelSableHeart)

Not Voting - 2 (geraintim, Petunho)

I hadn't really been that suspicious of SensFan until Skruffs took over and now I'm very suspicious of him. The other three... soupfly has been my prime suspect the whole day, TSPN was one of the people I listed immediately as potential scum (for defending DS on Day 1), and then I've already stated that I think QuickBen is highly liked to be mafia.

I'm not saying all 4 of them are, but I'd say there is a good chance at least 2 of the people who voted for me are scum.

[Qman]

OhGodMyLife has been prodded

VOTE COUNT THE SIXTH OF DAY TWO!

ZeekLTK

- 2 (Quickben, Skruffs)

Lowell

- 3 (MichelSableHeart, TheSweatPantsNinja, OhGodMyLife)

OhGodMyLife

- 2 (Lowell, geraintim)

QuickBen

- 1 (Petunho)

soupfly

- 1 (ZeekLTK)

Not Voting

- 1 (Soupfly)

6 will lynch.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Zeek, you've seriously lost scumhunting credibility. I'm tentatively not voting for you now, but you've been entirely too

certain

for my comfort.

[ZeekLTK]

Zeek, you've seriously lost scumhunting credibility. I'm tentatively not voting for you now, but you've been entirely too

certain

for my comfort.

Four votes against a townie early in a Day... how can you NOT assume that most likely there are scum involved in that?

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Because

assumptions

get townies lynched. And probably because I thought the case against was, and is, not too shabby (unsurprising, since I led it). Of course some of those players might be scum, but I don't fall into the camp of bandwagons or bandwagoners being automatically scummy.

[QuickBen]

To be completely frank, I believe that one of the following is true...

A- Zeek is scum
B- Soupfly is scum
C- Both are scum

We're not at lynch or lose, the case against either of you has merits. If I didn't think that switching my vote to Soupfly would let you wriggle out of being lynched tomorrow, I'd do so.

[Skruffs]

It's interesting how zeek worries about the possibility of scum being on his wagon: I don't remember seeing him questioning any of those people being on DS yesterday. Apparently it's only scummy to bandwagon when he's not directing it.


Michel: I don't know the meaning behind last night's kill involving poison. I originally thought that it meant that there was a poisoner involved: a killing role (usually mafia) that could do a delayed kill which is not stoppable by a doctor. However, the kill wasn' delayed... So I'm not sure what, if anything, it means. I am not sure why scum would kill yvonne; she was oppurtunistic and scummy. I would guess that a vig would be more likely to hit her than scum.
What do you think about it, michel?

Zeek: you acted like you knew ds would come up town shortly after you voted him. Now you are suspicious of soupfly for putting a townie at -1. Why was this "connection" not made before you hammered?

[ZeekLTK]

Because

assumptions

get townies lynched. And probably because I thought the case against was, and is, not too shabby (unsurprising, since I led it). Of course some of those players might be scum, but I don't fall into the camp of bandwagons or bandwagoners being automatically scummy.

Yeah but sometimes you have to make assumptions or you aren't going to catch scum.

Generally the mafia just sits back and lets the town go after each other, and they mostly just step in to either a) try to divert the town from going after one of their own or b) help nudge along a case against a townie.

And look at soupfly's play... all of his votes have been very weak, usually without any type of a case - which means he wasn't actually trying to find scum, he was just trying to distract the town and hope that maybe a bandwagon would form. The only vote he really fought for was against me - he actually argued that a little bit (all the other ones he gave up on right away) but eventually even gave up on me after it was going nowhere because all it was doing was bringing attention to him.

QuickBen did the same. He went MIA from us on Day 1 to stay out of sight and then comes in and puts an opportunistic bandwagon vote against me on Day 2 - then he tried to push it along by asking some questions and raising doubt about the miller claim, but when he realized all it was doing was bringing attention to himself and not pushing the bandwagon against a townie any further he backed off and hasn't really posted much since (but he left his vote just incase the town starts to sway that way again).

That, plus everything else I've said about either of those two (including my theory that it's likely the people who voted for me at the beginning of the day are highly likely to be scum) is enough for me to be pretty certain that at least one of them is mafia.

If you don't think so, then who is? You are going after Lowell... what exactly has he done that is worse than either soupfly or QuickBen? He misrepresented some stuff and missed some questions asked of him, but his voting record isn't nearly as bad as either of those two.

At least soupfly is here defending himself somewhat. His stance has gone from trying to push the bandwagon against me to trying to convince everyone that we are both townies. But he's still not going after anyone, still not looking for scum. QuickBen has just sat back in the shadows again, only to re-emerge when things start swaying against me so that he can try to push the bandwagon a little further...

So yes, using evidence AND assumptions, I'm pretty confident that either QuickBen or soupfly are scum and one of them should be lynched today.

It's interesting how zeek worries about the possibility of scum being on his wagon: I don't remember seeing him questioning any of those people being on DS yesterday. Apparently it's only scummy to bandwagon when he's not directing it.

Zeek: you acted like you knew ds would come up town shortly after you voted him. Now you are suspicious of soupfly for putting a townie at -1. Why was this "connection" not made before you hammered?

DS admitted that he played scummy. He set himself up to be lynched, so it's going to be hard to determine which players that voted for him were scum and which were townies because everyone had good reason to vote for him. That's why I'm suspicious of TSPN, because only the mafia would have known that DS was a townie, so if TSPN knew we were heading to a DS mislynch I could see his play as trying to tell us not to go after DS being that of the mafia so that once the mislynch happened, it made him look better, being the only person to have "stuck up for a townie". But because DS played so scummy, I just don't see how anyone could have possibly defended him on Day 1 unless they knew he was town... and only the mafia knew he was town at that point in time.

After I voted for him, he came in here and STILL stuck to his claim that he was a townie. Once a player has been voted to be lynched, they generally admit their role and say "bah, good job... I was actually [whatever]" or something. Instead he stuck to it saying he was town, so I was forced to believe him then, but the vote had already been cast and there was nothing to do about it.

This part was already explained earlier as well. You really should read the thread again because everything you have said or questioned about me has already been resolved previously...

[ZeekLTK]

It's interesting how zeek worries about the possibility of scum being on his wagon: I don't remember seeing him questioning any of those people being on DS yesterday. Apparently it's only scummy to bandwagon when he's not directing it.

Also, I fail to see how I was directing the bandwagon yesterday.

At some point DS said he will only explain when he got to L-1 and that seemed to give everyone a free pass to vote for him as he got like 2-3 votes in a relatively short period of time.

At that point I stepped in and said I would hammer in order to stop the votes - I figured no one would put him on L-1 if they thought I would hammer - so we could try to force him to tell us what he had to say BEFORE he got to L-1.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

If you don't think so, then who is? You are going after Lowell... what exactly has he done that is worse than either soupfly or QuickBen? He misrepresented some stuff and missed some questions asked of him, but his voting record isn't nearly as bad as either of those two.

Well, I kinda think you are. But in any case, there might be scum on your bandwagon, but being so certain that there must be, especially that there must be two, is only unnecessarily narrowing your viewpoint. I mean, what do you think, the scum got together during the night and said "OK guys, if zeek gets bandwagoned, have two of us jump on it. Not three, not one, but definitely two. Go team."

I also disagree about lowell's voting record: On a readthrough that I admit may not be complete I note:

An unexplained bandwagon vote on you in post 45.
A vote simply quoting what you said and bandwagoning ds (confirmed townie) in post 92.
Then he votes me based on my never-happened vote on ds in post 142.
Then he unvotes in post 237, FOS's three people and votes OGML in post 241, which, remains his only well-explained vote.

And that's it. I see three bad votes and one kinda-good vote, with a lot of lurking in between. This post in particular:

TSPN, I'm lazy. Do me a favor and tell me what you want me to answer, and I'll be happy to oblige. Your vote sitting on me looks like you just don't want to get involved in what is happening around you.

In other words: Hey, I didn't post for a while. Other people are doing stuff. Go vote for them. If I don't say anything, I can't be suspicious, right?

[QuickBen]

Actually zeek, I made my points against you. I voted you. Are you suggesting that I'm scummy because I'm *not* actively pushing other players to vote for you? I'm scummy because I'm letting them make up their minds? Puh-lease. I would love to see you swinging at the end of today, but everyone needs to make up their own minds about who to lynch.

[geraintm]

Right now, i can't make up my mind over zeek.
i hated the miller thing, really do, but despite that i can't bring myself to vote for him and haven't really come close at any point in the game

Soupfly - dislike your post 310. i don't like posts that add nothing to the game except add helpful information. helpful posts like that ring alarm bells to me

Skruffs - post 319 - mentioning on day one about the jester was what confused yesterday.
today you are suggesting weird poison delay killings. and i can't see that happening in this game. i can't beleive there are roles that weird, as with the jester.
you entered the game with what appeared at first glance a very helpful couple ofposts, but since then you have become less and less useful.

i feel like my posts just keep on saying what i think is good and bad play...