Mini 533: Something wicked this way comes! Game over!

[MichelSableheart]

To be completely frank, I believe that one of the following is true...

A- Zeek is scum
B- Soupfly is scum
C- Both are scum

We're not at lynch or lose, the case against either of you has merits. If I didn't think that switching my vote to Soupfly would let you wriggle out of being lynched tomorrow, I'd do so.

This feels like setting up two mislynches in a row, which would cause us to lose the game. Why do you believe that they aren't both town, QuickBen?

Michel: I don't know the meaning behind last night's kill involving poison. I originally thought that it meant that there was a poisoner involved: a killing role (usually mafia) that could do a delayed kill which is not stoppable by a doctor. However, the kill wasn' delayed... So I'm not sure what, if anything, it means. I am not sure why scum would kill yvonne; she was oppurtunistic and scummy. I would guess that a vig would be more likely to hit her than scum.
What do you think about it, michel?

To be honest, till you mentioned it, I did not think about it much, thought of it as pure flavour. When you brought it up, however, I realised that poison isn't the usual flavour of a mafia kill. It's more what you would expect of a serial killer, unless each mafia goon has a different MO, what is unlikely given the townie pm in the third post. Therefore, if the flavour matters somehow, I believe it's likely that we have multiple killing groups, probably a mafia and an SK, where the mafia didn't kill last night for whatever reason.

I can only find one reference to a poisoner in the wiki, and that refers to EmpTyger's mini 229, which was titled poisoner because there was a poisoner as SK. Besides that, as you said, the kill wasn't delayed. I don't think that you had any reason to believe a poisoner would be in a mini normal. And if you believed so, you would probably mentioned it alongside mentioning the MO.

In fact, I think your answer to my question is completely unsatisfying. There was only a single kill last night, so there was no reason to assume that the flavour was relevant. The fact that you brought it up strongly suggest that you believed it was relevant though. Your claim that you don't know what it means seems therefore rather unlikely.

I personally believe you slipped up. You knew there was a relevance to the flavour, probably because you were part of the killing group that didn't kill last night, the mafia.

The behaviour of Sensfan strongly supports this assumption, IMO. Take a look at the DS bandwagon. Sensfan seems to be the only person there who is actively advocating lynching DS, trying to get other people to vote for him. Having seen that DS was a townie who was playing extremely poor, that would be the behaviour I expect from mafia: violently pushing for the mislynch, for good reasons.

Then there is SensFan's reaction to Zeek's post #146, which completely disregards the argument made, and the way how he jumped on the Zeek wagon in general, seemingly wanting to go for a second easy mislynch.

Of course, I may be horribly wrong here, but I have reasons to believe I'm right.

Unvote: Lowell

Vote: Skruffs

The most likely player to be the SK is, in my opinion, geraintm. His decision to vote sparingly makes sure that he won't draw much attention to himself. His actions seem to be aimed at survival, not at finding scum. And there is, of course, his response to the fact that Yvonne was reveiled to be a cop.

FoS: geraintm

I still remain suspicious of Lowell. He has a bad voting history, as TSpN pointed out, and his attack on TSpN early in day 2 is completely different from how I read TSpN day 1.

FoS: Lowell

I also agree with much of Zeek's case against QuickBen.

[geraintm]

MSH - your post above and your switching to voting Skruffs seems to be based on skruffs mentioning the poison? how come you give me no credit at all for mentioning this exact thing in the one post previous??

and now i am going to have to say i don't like you bringing up the possible existence of a serial killer. where did that come from? there is no reason to suppose there is a SK in this game at all?

And there is, of course, his response to the fact that Yvonne was reveiled to be a cop.

what do you mean by this? is this referring to my post of dec 14th??

[MichelSableheart]

I have to refine my suspicions. It's more logical that Skruffs is the Serial Killer and geraintm is mafia. The most logical reason for the nightkill of Yvonne seems to me to be that SensFan couldn't convince her to join the DS wagon, even though he seriously tried. And geraintm's response to the Yvonne kill would be better explained from the point of view of mafia who didn't kill Yvonne then from a SK who did.

what do you mean by this? is this referring to my post of dec 14th??

I am indeed referring to your post of dec 14th. The fact that you compliment the mafia with killing the cop is suspicious, especially if the mafia didn't kill Yvonne at all.

MSH - your post above and your switching to voting Skruffs seems to be based on skruffs mentioning the poison? how come you give me no credit at all for mentioning this exact thing in the one post previous??

Because that wasn't the mentioning of poison I was talking about. Back in the first lines of post #274, Skruffs mentioned Yvonne being killed by poison. I asked him about it in posts #278 and #312. Skruff's post #319 was an answer to those questions.

and now i am going to have to say i don't like you bringing up the possible existence of a serial killer. where did that come from? there is no reason to suppose there is a SK in this game at all?

That suspicion comes from the fact that poison (which was used to kill Yvonne) is not usually the way the mafia kills. Mafia kills are usually described as gunshots. Serial Killers are in general more likely to poison their victims, at least as far as I know. See also the wiki on the topic Modus Operandi.

[QuickBen]

@Mike- Its mainly their interaction on the lynch that leads me to believe that one, or the other, or (less likely) both are scum. The whole "if he gets to L-1 I'm hammering" statement stinks. Its too easy for scum to say that knowing that a townie is on the block, so he can point the finger elsewhere. The fact that shortly afterwards, soupfly put him at L-1 was scummy too.

I could see either:

A- scum zeek claims he'll hammer a townie if he gets to L-1, in the hopes that a less than intelligent townie (soupfly) will indeed vote him next.

B- scum soupfly seeing a townie zeek make a stupid call like that and voting to "dare" zeek into hammering.

or

C- scum soupfly & zeek working together to essentially speedlynch, but with a gambit that allows them to distance and then should one of them be lynched, the other looks more townie.

[soupfly]

@Mike- Its mainly their interaction on the lynch that leads me to believe that one, or the other, or (less likely) both are scum. The whole "if he gets to L-1 I'm hammering" statement stinks. Its too easy for scum to say that knowing that a townie is on the block, so he can point the finger elsewhere. The fact that shortly afterwards, soupfly put him at L-1 was scummy too.

given that DS was going to get lynched, regardless of whether jesus christ himself replaced into this game for him, you believe that two scum would get involved in a poorly thought out gambit where one would claim to be trying to preempt a self lynching jester from winning the game while the other would be challenge the anti-jester...all of this to ensure the death of a player who was going to get lynched anyway? this is result of your brilliant scum-hunting?

thanks for making this easy

vote: QuickBen

[ZeekLTK]

@Mike- Its mainly their interaction on the lynch that leads me to believe that one, or the other, or (less likely) both are scum. The whole "if he gets to L-1 I'm hammering" statement stinks. Its too easy for scum to say that knowing that a townie is on the block, so he can point the finger elsewhere. The fact that shortly afterwards, soupfly put him at L-1 was scummy too.

I could see either:

A- scum zeek claims he'll hammer a townie if he gets to L-1, in the hopes that a less than intelligent townie (soupfly) will indeed vote him next.

B- scum soupfly seeing a townie zeek make a stupid call like that and voting to "dare" zeek into hammering.

or

C- scum soupfly & zeek working together to essentially speedlynch, but with a gambit that allows them to distance and then should one of them be lynched, the other looks more townie.

I don't like how you have completely ignored my entire explanation as to WHY I said what I did... but I want to point out I have been saying "B" this whole time for Day 2 as that is what it felt like happened to me. But, maybe this is a clever ploy between you two... but the more you attack soupfly the more I start to doubt if he is mafia since I'm fairly convinced that you are as well.

However, ever since Skruffs came into the game I've been leaning towards him being scum. I honestly hadn't noticed SensFan that much (I guess I was too worried about the jester on Day 1 and then soupfly on Day 2) but ever since his recap where he tried to cast suspicion on Yvonne... there was just something wrong about that, and then he hasn't even considered my miller claim being true - he's just blindly trying to push the mislynch against me.

In his "recap", he already knew DS was town when he was attacking everyone in that post (all of his points were - this guy did this against townie DS). So how come he didn't already know Yvonne was the cop?

Well he did, but he was just picking and choosing what information he wanted to share with us. If he was a townie, he wouldn't do that, he would just give us the facts - all of them, and then say what he thought of them.

IMO, a townie who found Yvonne suspicious would have most likely had LESS suspicion of players who went after DS, concluding that DS's play was so bad it even made the cop look scummy. Instead, he tried to twist it and say Yvonne was suspicious, and then he continued on and tried to accuse me, and others, for voting for DS (while

completely ignoring

that the guy he replaced was the one LEADING THE CHARGE).

AND, as I said before, I'm confident that people who voted for me early in Day 2 are highly likely to be mafia... Skruffs is one of those people (and SensFan had voted for me too!)

In fact, looking back, that's all SensFan did... he pushed the bandwagon against a townie on Day 1 (DS) and on Day 2 he immediately tried to push a bandwagon against another townie with his whole attack about WIFOM.

unvote; vote Skruffs

[QuickBen]

Thanks soup. So should I fear your vote on me more the second time than I did the first one? One of the two scummiest players in the game is voting me... witness the shaking in my boots. I enjoy that you brought up "the jester" again. I'm going to type this slowly for you:

T h i s i s a m i n i - n o r m a l . H a v i n g a r e g u l a r J e s t e r w o u l d b e u n l i k e l y a t b e s t . H a v i n g a s e l f - l y n c h i n g J e s t e r w o u l d b e r e t a r d e d .

If you need to go back and read that again, go ahead, I'll wait. As I said in my post (thank you for quoting something then trying to condemn me for a totally different part and committing yet another scumtell this game), I feel that both of you being scum is unlikely, but possible.

What I think happened is that a townie made an incredibly stupid play and a scum made a play to get a townie lynched. I'm just confused as to which of you made the stupid play and which was scum, although if soup commits one more act of scummery I'll be changing my vote.

[ZeekLTK]

T h i s i s a m i n i - n o r m a l . H a v i n g a r e g u l a r J e s t e r w o u l d b e u n l i k e l y a t b e s t . H a v i n g a s e l f - l y n c h i n g J e s t e r w o u l d b e r e t a r d e d .

This wasn't your stance on Day 1 (while you were off posting in other games and ignoring ours).

Also, face it, while it seems unlikely in retrospect... during that Day it did appear that it was a possibility. Trying to accuse people for playing a certain way while completely failing to acknowledge a plausible explanation for WHY they acted that way is pretty opportunistic/scummy IMO.

[QuickBen]

As I recall, the point that a Jester would not be considered traditional by any means in a mini-normal was brought up on day 1. I felt no need to repeat it. The whole point is that DS being a Jester was not PLAUSIBLE. It was hardly even POSSIBLE. I would like you (or soupfly) to find me one instance of a mini normal game in which a Jester was included. Please, show me a link.

[soupfly]

One of the two scummiest players in the game is voting me... witness the shaking in my boots.

my play has been less then stellar, i agree. however my point was that its extremely unlikely that both myself and zeek are scum.

I feel that both of you being scum is unlikely, but possible.

anything is possible, but when you post scenarios within the scope of the game they should be plausible scenarios, not unlikely ones.

What I think happened is that a townie made an incredibly stupid play and a scum made a play to get a townie lynched. I'm just confused as to which of you made the stupid play and which was scum

what you're missing is that its possible and even probable that both Zeek and I messed up the end of day 1. unless you think that there was any chance of DS not being lynched (yeah right!), then you have to realize that scum gained nothing from the Zeek/Soupfly exchange that led to DS's premature lynch. any scum in their right mind would have sat back and waited for the inevitable to happen instead of engaging in a course of action that would bring suspicion upon them.

although if soup commits one more act of scummery I'll be changing my vote.

despite not being a real word, i hope that "scummery" is not defined as "contradicting QuickBen".

[soupfly]

The whole point is that DS being a Jester was not PLAUSIBLE. It was hardly even POSSIBLE. I would like you (or soupfly) to find me one instance of a mini normal game in which a Jester was included. Please, show me a link.

why would i need to find you an instance of a mini normal game in which a jester was included? i thought it was a ridiculous idea from the beginning, hence the ill timed challenge to Zeek by bringing DS to L-1.

what you need to ask yourself is if Zeek is an inexperienced noob playing a town role (and trying to catch the devious self lynching jester) or scum trying to make sure that DS doesn't escape the D1 lynch mob.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Also, face it, while it seems unlikely in retrospect... during that Day it did appear that it was a possibility.

I still thoroughly fail to see how the Jester Scenario could ever have been considered a realistic possibility.

At MSH: I think you're stretching here. Making reads based on flavor is a dicey enough proposition, but making tells out of player's reaction to said flavor is a little bit of a stretch. There may be an SK, there may not be (although I'd say a doc save is orders of magnitude more likely than a no-kill), but basing that decision off of one bit of flavor is the kind of assumption that's led us to lynch self-lynching jesters.

[MichelSableheart]

@Mike- Its mainly their interaction on the lynch that leads me to believe that one, or the other, or (less likely) both are scum. The whole "if he gets to L-1 I'm hammering" statement stinks. Its too easy for scum to say that knowing that a townie is on the block, so he can point the finger elsewhere. The fact that shortly afterwards, soupfly put him at L-1 was scummy too.

I could see either:

A- scum zeek claims he'll hammer a townie if he gets to L-1, in the hopes that a less than intelligent townie (soupfly) will indeed vote him next.

B- scum soupfly seeing a townie zeek make a stupid call like that and voting to "dare" zeek into hammering.

or

C- scum soupfly & zeek working together to essentially speedlynch, but with a gambit that allows them to distance and then should one of them be lynched, the other looks more townie.

I understand where your suspicion is coming from. What I don't understand, however, is that you believe it is possible that Zeek as pro-town made a stupid move, or that Soupfly as pro-town made a stupid move, but not that both are pro-town but made stupid moves.

At MSH: I think you're stretching here. Making reads based on flavor is a dicey enough proposition, but making tells out of player's reaction to said flavor is a little bit of a stretch. There may be an SK, there may not be (although I'd say a doc save is orders of magnitude more likely than a no-kill), but basing that decision off of one bit of flavor is the kind of assumption that's led us to lynch self-lynching jesters.

The tell to me is that he reacted to the flavour at all. The Modus Operandi is mostly a relevant game mechanic if there are different killers around, to differentiate between the killers. There was only one kill last night, so there is no reason for a vanilla townie to assume that the Modus Operandi was relevant. If a townie believed there might be a poisoner (as in the mechanical role) around, he would have said so when he mentioned the killing method. If a townie believed he was wrong about that, he would delete the flavour speculation along with the mentioning of the poisoner. I admit that it's a bit of a stretch, but it's rather convincing to me, considering SensFan's behaviour.

[Petunho]

Sorry for my absence (exam week and computer's HD said "Poof"). I'll post tomorrow.

[Skruffs]

Zeek:
Why are you accusing me of blindly trying to push a mislynch on you? Isn't that exactly what you did on DS? To the point of saying he was likely a jester? And then fossing someone for 'baiting' you into lynching him, as if you knew he would be a mislynch?
Of course you knew. You also knew that it would be an easy lynch that you would very likely not be held accountable for: Hence why you are singlemindedly pushing after soupfly today.

And someone who sees through that? You have to say they are scum, too, because if you acknowledge any flaws that they see, then you are ackknowledgin you are intentionally playign scummy. So go on, attack me for being suspicious of you. It's hilarious that senfan wasn't scummy to you, because you 'didn't notice him', even though he was fairly vocal. Or.. wait.. was it because he didn't go against you that you weren't suspicious of him?

[QuickBen]

@Soupfly- I don't mind you contradicting me at all. If I thought you were THE scummiest player, I'd be voting you, not zeek. The fact that the last time zeek mentions me he throws in a little escape clause on your wagon, makes me think that I'm on the right track. See, your wagon, kinda stalled and he's stuck on it, because he was quick to point the finger at you to deflect blame for yesterday's lynch. Now he's at "well if QB is attacking soupfly, soupfly must be townie." Which is total craplogic, but it gives him an out, a reason to unvote you.

[ZeekLTK]

Zeek:
Why are you accusing me of blindly trying to push a mislynch on you? Isn't that exactly what you did on DS? To the point of saying he was likely a jester? And then fossing someone for 'baiting' you into lynching him, as if you knew he would be a mislynch?
Of course you knew. You also knew that it would be an easy lynch that you would very likely not be held accountable for: Hence why you are singlemindedly pushing after soupfly today.

And someone who sees through that? You have to say they are scum, too, because if you acknowledge any flaws that they see, then you are ackknowledgin you are intentionally playign scummy. So go on, attack me for being suspicious of you. It's hilarious that senfan wasn't scummy to you, because you 'didn't notice him', even though he was fairly vocal. Or.. wait.. was it because he didn't go against you that you weren't suspicious of him?

I wasn't suspicious of SensFan because everything he said at least had some logic to it.

Everything you say... you are

twisting

what happened to spin it so that you can attack people. Since you are attacking me, this makes it especially suspicious to me because the only roles I know are my own and the already dead players. Since I know I'm a townie, I question your motives for trying to spin an argument against a townie. Also, I now know Yvonne's role, so I find it especially suspicious that you made a whole

paragraph

where you were attacking Yvonne despite the fact that it was already proven that she was not only a townie, but a cop, when you made the post.

So basically I know for a fact you have tried to

spin what happened

in order to

attack two townies

so far. That is pretty suspicious to me. SensFan attacked two townies himself (DS and me) but he had valid reasons for both (DS's play is self-explanitory and he attacked me at the beginning of the day when questions were raised that hadn't been answered yet, so what he posted could be seen as a normal townie reaction). That doesn't change the fact that he attacked two townies himself, but it makes it less suspicious than you because he attacked them BEFORE he knew their roles. You have attacked me and Yvonne AFTER Yvonne was revealed as a cop and after I had already fully explained myself as a miller. So that is why I didn't really notice SensFan but certainly noticed you.

As I have said before (numerous times), I already explained the DS situation. But I will explain again if absolutely necessary. So let's look at this again:

Why are you accusing me of blindly trying to push a mislynch on you? Isn't that exactly what you did on DS? To the point of saying he was likely a jester? And then fossing someone for 'baiting' you into lynching him, as if you knew he would be a mislynch?

Because I have already explained that I am a miller. You are just trying to make a case against me

without even considering my claim

and because you even refuse to look at other possibilities that is

blindly pushing a mislynch

.

It is NOT exactly what I did to DS. This, again, was explained numerous times.

I said I would lynch him at L-1 because I wanted to

deter people from putting him on L-1

. This is the exact opposite of what you are accusing me for, which again shows that you are just twisting what happened to push your mislynch.

I already explained my reasoning for this too, but again, here goes:

-I have only played one other mini game before this. In that game I was a miller.

-In that game, EVERYONE had some kind of a role. There were multiple cops (with sanity issues), roleblockers, vigs, masons, etc. NO ONE was a vanilla townie. In fact, I caught the serial killer in that game because he tried to claim vanilla townie and I called him out on it.

-In this game I am a miller. This game is also a mini. I assumed that since I'm a miller again, it's probably similar to the last set up in which every single player has some type of role.

--- Yes, people have pointed out this is a "normal" as opposed to a "themed" which was my other game. I thought the main difference is simply that in a "normal" there isn't any flavor, roles are just what they are. In the "themed" game I was "Ginger Cartman" and was a miller because the other Cartman's thought I was against them because I looked different. In this game I'm just a "miller" and that's it. So I assumed that "themed" games meant there is a lot of flavor and "normal" games mean no flavor. I assumed that, especially since I had the same role in EACH type of mini, that there was no difference and either type could have any number of roles.

-Then DS claimed Vanilla Townie. Well, since I'm in a nearly identical position as the last game... and because like I said I caught the SK because he tried to claim vanilla last game... I was certain he was lying about his role.

-Then, when he only had 3 votes (and needed 7 to lynch) and the commotion around him seemed to be dying off (aka no one was pushing to vote for him) he said he would only explain himself at L-1... aka he wanted us to put him really close to being lynched.

-Okay look at this from my point of view. I already think he is lying about being a vanilla townie. He is no where even close to being lynched and now he is calling for people to put him on L-1. That screams jester.

-I know a jester wins if he is lynched, but because he keeps telling us "L-1" I start to think maybe he has a condition where he has to lynch himself. He keeps telling us "I will explain at L-1... so don't lynch me, just put me at L-1". To me, this makes it highly likely that he is setting us up so when he gets to L-1 he'll come in and vote himself and say "haha, I win". I wanted to prevent this from happening. Also, again because of my role and the previous mini I played, I feel it is MUCH MORE LIKELY that this is the case than his claim of vanilla townie.

-The worst part is, after he says "I will explain at L-1", people start voting again to be like "let's see what he says", etc. He gets to L-2 and I start to worry because I strongly feel he is likely a jester who has to lynch himself at L-1.

-This is when I say "WARNING! I'm going to lynch him if it gets to L-1" as a way to STOP people from voting for him. I figured if people think it's safe to put him at L-1 they might do it. If people think he will get lynched at L-1 then most likely they'll wait to cast the vote.

-Instead, soupfly immediately puts him on L-1 forcing me to take action and do what I said I would.

-This is why I went after soupfly so heavily, because any mafia would know that both DS and I were townies, so seeing a townie say "I will hammer [this other townie]" is probably like hitting the lottery because they can: a) get one townie killed and the b) they have an easy job of mislynching the hammering townie the next day.

-This is exactly what soupfly did too. He put DS on L-1, and then he said "if he's town..." to ALREADY SET ME UP for Day 2, hence why I've been so suspicious of him.

And, as I already explained before, after I cast the vote DS came on here and STILL stuck with his claim that he was a townie. At that point I am forced to believe him, because why would he lie after he already has been lynched? There is no reason to.

So then I realize most likely that there is a chance the cop will investigate me. If this happens, that will be really bad for the town because the cop will come out and say "I'm the cop - I investigated Zeek - he is guilty". Then I get lynched, another townie dead, and then the cop is out and the cop gets killed the next night without ever finding scum.

So obviously, the only way I can help the town with my role is to claim.

And, as already explained, this claim in NO WAY benefits the scum.

Why? Because:

a) The cop might not have investigated me, so if I was scum why would I give myself away for no reason?
b) Even if the cop investigates me, if I am scum, I would obviously want to make the cop reveal himself (herself in this case) in order to out me, so that if I was mafia, the other scum could kill the cop at night.

What I did prevented EITHER of these from happening. And a) was much more likely than b) too...

These were the options for the night:

-The cop investigates me
OR
-The cop gets killed (happened)
-The cop investigates someone else
-The cop gets roleblocked
-The cop misses the deadline and doesn't get an investigation in

There are MANY other things that could happen causing the cop to NOT investigate me, so it wasn't a sure thing by any means that I would be investigated.

So yes, in summary, if you STILL think I am scum then I am very confident in my vote, because I feel at this point only scum would try to attack me... because the only way you can is to

twist

what happened (the way you are doing) because my play has been completely pro-town and I would have to be the worst scum ever to have played that way if I was mafia.

And I can assure you that I'm not the "worst scum ever" because I am 2-0 in games where I actually am mafia.

[soupfly]

1535 words (not including quotes)...wow! that must be a new record!

everything about Zeek's game so far (including this last post) is so poorly played and wrought with local fallacies that i'm inclined to give him a noob townie pass...though just barely. if it were up to him half the people in the game would be scum for voicing any kind of suspicion against him. his voting record so far is a veritable manual in how to place OMGUS votes. while i don't think he adds any value to the town's cause i also don't want to lynch another townie...even if his play is bad.

[Qman]

VOTE COUNT THE SEVENTH OF DAY TWO!

ZeekLTK

- 2 (Quickben, Skruffs)

Lowell

- 2 (TheSweatPantsNinja, OhGodMyLife)

OhGodMyLife

- 2 (Lowell, geraintim)

QuickBen

- 2 (Petunho, soupfly)

Skruffs

- 2 (MichelSableHeart, ZeekLTK)

Not Voting - 0

6 will lynch.

Unless there is an objection I will start to edit vote counts into the first post of each page, current as of that post.

[Skruffs]

Geraintn - Yes, I've noticed most of your posts seem to be critiques on teh usefull ness of other players without actually scum hunting yourself. Minus brownie points for you. I am scumhunting, for myself. If you refuse to scum hunt, or, as you seem to be doing, you *RELY* on others to scum hunt for you? That's sign of being scum. Get on that.

To be honest, till you mentioned it, I did not think about it much, thought of it as pure flavour. When you brought it up, however, I realised that poison isn't the usual flavour of a mafia kill. It's more what you would expect of a serial killer, unless each mafia goon has a different MO, what is unlikely given the townie pm in the third post. Therefore, if the flavour matters somehow,

I believe it's likely that we have multiple killing groups, probably a mafia and an SK, where the mafia didn't kill last night for whatever reason.

This is interesting - see below for why.

I can only find one reference to a poisoner in the wiki, and that refers to EmpTyger's mini 229, which was titled poisoner because there was a poisoner as SK. Besides that, as you said, the kill wasn't delayed. I don't think that you had any reason to believe a poisoner would be in a mini normal. And if you believed so, you would probably mentioned it alongside mentioning the MO.

Maybe this is my 'vast experience' talking, but in my experience, there are lots of different roles, and they can be independant or in groups. I have seen mafia poisoners in scumchat and IRC games. I don't remember seeing one as an SK, but it's possible. But again, see below.

In fact, I think your answer to my question is completely unsatisfying.

On the contrary, I'm very happy with your answer.

There was only a single kill last night, so there was no reason to assume that the flavour was relevant. The fact that you brought it up strongly suggest that you believed it was relevant though. Your claim that you don't know what it means seems therefore rather unlikely.

I personally believe you slipped up. You knew there was a relevance to the flavour, probably because you were part of the killing group that didn't kill last night, the mafia.

This is hte below section.

Michel, first of all, I would like to thank you for confirming that there is mafia. I always assume that there is a mafia, and that secondary kills are from Vigs and SKs. So when I saw that there was a kill, I assumed it was from the Mafia, you know, hold that as the most likely conclusion until proven otherwise.

I figured that since the kill was from poisoning, or at least the smell of almonds in the air, that the mafia had a poisoner. Perhaps hte poisoner can kill in a way that the doctor, if there is one, can't prevent. Maybe it's a one time super-kill poisoning. I don't know.

You on the other hand, seem to think... no wait, KNOW, that the mafia did NOT try to kill Yvonne.

Even more so then that, you seem to KNOW... that the mafia didn't try to kill, AT ALL.

Which is unusual that you would discredit the possibility of a doctor, or a roleblocker, or that the poison was from the mafia. I can understadn why, if the wiki says poisonings are from SKs, you, as town, might think that the SK did a poisoning last night and not the mafia, BUT

BUT

You actually went out and said that the mafia chose NOT To kill. That tells me that you have insider information. That tells me that you *know* that the mafia wasn't roleblocked, protected, or even using the poisoning method to kill, it tells me that you know that they didn't kill. THat means you are mafia.

Unvote (if necessary)
Vote: MichelSableheart

I will use a second post to adress to the parts between this and the ending, which I had to include below, but for now:

Of course, I may be horribly wrong here, but I have reasons to believe I'm right.

Unvote: Lowell

Vote: Skruffs

This is a GREAT way to cover your bases. Acknowledge the errors in your ways while you simultaneously push them to avoid being held responsible later on.


It's of great interest to me, and apparently none to Zeek, that you are still buddying up with him after the two of you helped mislynch DS, which you are now apparently trying to put on Sensfan. IF I remember correctly, Michel, you KNEW that DS was at -1 adn that Zeek would hammer, in his next post, but you chose to leave your vote in place. You can bluster all you want about previewing and etc, its still something you chose to do.

You keep pushing that zeek is town, today, but you haven't commented on his attack on Soupfly. Why is this?

[Skruffs]

Sensfan seems to be the only person there who is actively advocating lynching DS, trying to get other people to vote for him. Having seen that DS was a townie who was playing extremely poor, that would be the behaviour I expect from mafia: violently pushing for the mislynch, for good reasons.

Funnily enough, I read through your posts, and while you asked for an explanation of DS's behavior, demanding that it be REALLY good or you wouldn't move your vote, the rest of your time seems to be just a general criticism of him. You say that he's being noisy, that he's either scum or jester, and htat you DIDN'T BELIEVE his vanilla claim. THat is not outright saying "More people vote him", but it's about as forceful as you CAN get in encouraging his lynch without being able to be directly reproached for it if it's a mislynch.

With allt he rubbish you gave about him being stupid to want to wait until he got to -1 before explaining himself, you were more than happy to 'risk' it when he got there. The only way you could validate yourself keeping your vote on him WAS BY saying "Well let's see if he gets to do that" or whatnot.
Here, in case you forgot, I'll quote it for you.

My apologies for being gone for a couple of days. I'm back now.

Sorry for bringing up the jester issue up in the first place. I wanted to know how likely it was, and came to the conclusion that it's not a very likely role in a mini normal. I really don't like how Yvonne has latched on to the idea.

I also strongly dislike that Disciple Slayer completely ignored the requests for an explanation BEFORE he is put on L-1. In my opinion, he should already have explained his actions by now. But let's see if he is given the time to come up with something...

See? "There's no real jester... not liking Yvonne thinking there is one... Let's see if he is given the time to come up with something BEFORE ZEEK HAMMERS HIM LIKE HE SAID HE WOULD! (That was the original sentence, Michel just editted it so as to not incriminate himself. )

And just like you have from your THIRD POST, you have it set in your mind that Zeek is town and you have been defending him ever since... even while you warn soupfly not to buddy up to you.


hmmm.

Then there is SensFan's reaction to Zeek's post #146, which completely disregards the argument made, and the way how he jumped on the Zeek wagon in general, seemingly wanting to go for a second easy mislynch.

Again: Why is Zeek a mislynch?

Why are you so quick to tout Zeek as town? Why is being critical of him a scum tell?

Why are you so invested in protecting him?

Immediately after that post, that you provided, is a post by you defending Zeek, even acknowledging that sensfan's 'comment' about it being WIFOM was at least partially true. But yet, now, Sensfan was the scummy one in pointing out something that YOU AGREED With, and Zeek is deftown? :9

Not buying it.

[Skruffs]

Zeek:
I posted an analysis of the game, writing is AS I read it.

You atre saying that I am scummy for making an attack on someone who is KNOWN to be dead and cop. I Did NOT know Yvonne was dead and cop. I posted suspicions based on how people were acting, and it was only a good bit afterwards that I realized taht she was dead. IF you are accussing me for being suspicious of the dead cop, then realize that lots of people in the game were suspicious of Yvonne day one, before she was a dead cop. They didn't know, Either. It's ridiculous to accuse me of "SPINNING" anything when IF I wanted to spin something, I would have only attacked LIVING players that other players are suspicious of, IN AN attempt to convince other players to hop on.


KIND of like what you and Michel have been doing since this game started, only not with each other.

[geraintm]

soupfly - votes seem to be part of trends - the vote on quickben admitted as a random vote that helped create bandwagon on him that he jumped off and then back on again

the votes for zeek early on in day 2 - twice

dec 11th post - allowing himself wiggle room
but he had forced zeek to push DS under a bus and his post on dec 12 blaming zeek doesn't work. you can't force someone to hammer and then just not take any responsibility yourself

to my eyes, he looks like he forced the lynching of a townie day one and early day two tried to get a lynch going on zeek that i think he shouldn't have been involved in for the reasons he stated
he then switches his vote to quickben based on the argument of Zeek, the person he believes to be scum (even though on the 8th he had backed off from zeek when it looks like zeek is not going to get lynched.)

i have to admit, at this point in the game i don't think zeek is lying about his miller claim. i think he is wrong about some of his reasoning, but i believe him to be a miller.

anyways

vote soupfly

[Skruffs]

"you can't force someone to hammer and then just not take any responsibility yourself"

soupfly didn't force seek to hammer. Zeek preemptively tried to avoid responsibility for hammering by saying he would as soon as he was at -1.Soupfly voting DS in now way 'forced' zeek to hammer him. If you think that, then you should also be suspicious of michel for intentionally leaving ahim at -1 when he could have unvoted, knowing that Zeek would hammer.

[MichelSableheart]

So yes, in summary, if you STILL think I am scum then I am very confident in my vote, because I feel at this point only scum would try to attack me... because the only way you can is to twist what happened (the way you are doing) because my play has been completely pro-town and I would have to be the worst scum ever to have played that way if I was mafia.

Sorry Zeek, but I strongly disagree with this. Your play was definately not pro-town (meaning that your actions weren't in favour of the town, not that you intended them to be antitown). Your play was scummy enough that I don't blame people for not believing you. Opportunistic jumping on the most likely lynching wagon is a different story, of course.

Maybe this is my 'vast experience' talking, but in my experience, there are lots of different roles, and they can be independant or in groups. I have seen mafia poisoners in scumchat and IRC games. I don't remember seeing one as an SK, but it's possible. But again, see below.

There aren't a lot of roles that are considered normal though, and the poisoner you're talking about isn't one of them. I doubt that, in a mini normal game, you would immediately think of a poisoner, instead of dismissing the MO as just flavour. You don't have the excuse that in the only other game you played, you were a miller and noone was a vanilla townie.

I figured that since the kill was from poisoning, or at least the smell of almonds in the air, that the mafia had a poisoner. Perhaps hte poisoner can kill in a way that the doctor, if there is one, can't prevent. Maybe it's a one time super-kill poisoning. I don't know.

This is what I think is extremely strange. Why would you believe, assuming you are pro-town, that the mafia is likely to have a powerrole that is not considered normal? And why would you not mention this when you mention the poison the first time around?

You on the other hand, seem to think... no wait, KNOW, that the mafia did NOT try to kill Yvonne.

Even more so then that, you seem to KNOW... that the mafia didn't try to kill, AT ALL.

Which is unusual that you would discredit the possibility of a doctor, or a roleblocker

, or that the poison was from the mafia. I can understadn why, if the wiki says poisonings are from SKs, you, as town, might think that the SK did a poisoning last night and not the mafia, BUT

BUT

You actually went out and said that the mafia

chose

NOT To kill. That tells me that you have insider information. That tells me that you *know* that the mafia wasn't roleblocked, protected, or even using the poisoning method to kill, it tells me that you know that they didn't kill. THat means you are mafia.

The bolded parts consist of serious misrepresentation that I can't allow to exist. Take a look at a sentence from my post #325 (bolding mine):

Therefore, if the flavour matters somehow, I believe it's likely that we have multiple killing groups, probably a mafia and an SK, where the mafia didn't kill last night

for whatever reason

.

There are many reasons why a mafia wouldn't kill. It could be that they chose not to kill. It could be that they are not allowed to kill every night. It could be that a doctor prevented their kill. It could be that they're roleblocked. There could be another reason that I'm not aware of at this point in time. I did not intend to disregard any of these reasons. I just did not specify them, because that might lead to role speculation that is not wanted at this point in time.
And considering the certainty expressed... I left out the second "I personally believe...", because I already said so in my first sentence. The added part between brackets in the following quote should make that clear.

I personally believe you slipped up.

You knew there was a relevance to the flavour, probably because you were part of the killing group that didn't kill last night, the mafia.

You keep pushing that zeek is town, today, but you haven't commented on his attack on Soupfly. Why is this?

Because my feelings on soupfly are a lot less clear then those on Zeek. In the case of Zeek, I'm convinced he's speaking the truth. In the case of Soupfly however, I don't know. My opinion on him has shifted slightly, to "I can see his play as a play town would make". I'm not convinced enough to actually defend soupfly though.

Sensfan seems to be the only person there who is actively advocating lynching DS, trying to get other people to vote for him. Having seen that DS was a townie who was playing extremely poor, that would be the behaviour I expect from mafia: violently pushing for the mislynch, for good reasons.

Funnily enough, I read through your posts, and while you asked for an explanation of DS's behavior, demanding that it be REALLY good or you wouldn't move your vote, the rest of your time seems to be just a general criticism of him. You say that he's being noisy, that he's either scum or jester, and htat you DIDN'T BELIEVE his vanilla claim. THat is not outright saying "More people vote him", but it's about as forceful as you CAN get in encouraging his lynch without being able to be directly reproached for it if it's a mislynch.

I used the word actively on purpose there. Believing that DS was scum is not suspicious. Wanting him lynched isn't either. The "HE'S SCUMMY! HE'S SCUMMY! LYNCH HIM! LYNCH HIM!" that SensFan's posts seem to be feel too enthousiastic though.

With allt he rubbish you gave about him being stupid to want to wait until he got to -1 before explaining himself, you were more than happy to 'risk' it when he got there. The only way you could validate yourself keeping your vote on him WAS BY saying "Well let's see if he gets to do that" or whatnot.
[snip my post]
See? "There's no real jester... not liking Yvonne thinking there is one... Let's see if he is given the time to come up with something BEFORE ZEEK HAMMERS HIM LIKE HE SAID HE WOULD!
[snip accussation of editing to make my post less incriminating]

That was indeed a stupid move I made, as I admitted and explained shortly at the end of post #186, before anyone even brought this up. I had a couple of busy days, but when I came home that night, I decided to quickly write a post in this game, to show that I was still there, and to catch up. I read the entire thread up to Zeek's post #119 (soupfly's posts weren't there yet), and wrote a couple of lines to give my feelings at that point (the first two paragraphs of post #122). I then previewed to see if any posts had been made, and noticed Soupfly putting DS at L-1. At that point in time, it was 1:45 am for me, after a couple of busy days, and with another busy day upcoming, so I wanted to go to bed. Because of this, I did not take the time to think what would be the best course of action, but decided to go with my feelings instead. DS had said that he would only explain himself at L-1. I was affraid that, if I unvoted, DS would refuse to explain himself again, seeing that he was not at L-1. I wanted to hear DS's explanation, but believed at that time that DS was scum, so Zeek hammering before DS explained did not concern me as much as it should.

And just like you have from your THIRD POST, you have it set in your mind that Zeek is town and you have been defending him ever since... even while you warn soupfly not to buddy up to you.

My mentioning of Zeek in my third post was an example of a random vote. I have believed Zeek to be town and defended him since early in day 2, not during day 1.

Again: Why is Zeek a mislynch?

Why are you so quick to tout Zeek as town? Why is being critical of him a scum tell?

Why are you so invested in protecting him?

Immediately after that post, that you provided, is a post by you defending Zeek, even acknowledging that sensfan's 'comment' about it being WIFOM was at least partially true. But yet, now, Sensfan was the scummy one in pointing out something that YOU AGREED With, and Zeek is deftown? :9

Being critical of Zeek is not scummy. Completely ignoring his explanations and hopping on a fast moving bandwagon without virtually any explanation of your own is.

I have already explained why I believe Zeek to be town, but here we go again.
- Zeek committed to a miller claim at a point in time where it was not opportunistic for mafia to do so.
- Zeek's miller claim completely explains his odd behaviour during day 1, but no people on the bandwagon even seem to consider it.
- The bandwagon against Zeek moved extremely fast, with people jumping on with virtually no reasoning, making it feel like scum pushing for an easy mislynch.

That last reason is also the reason I defended him so vehemently. The bandwagon on Zeek felt like it was driven by scum pushing for an easy mislynch. In particular, I did not like SensFan's post #150, a post I argued vehemently against. My defense of Zeek in posts #193, #202, #204 and #209 follow from my arguing against post #150.

soupfly didn't force seek to hammer. Zeek preemptively tried to avoid responsibility for hammering by saying he would as soon as he was at -1.Soupfly voting DS in now way 'forced' zeek to hammer him. If you think that, then you should also be suspicious of michel for intentionally leaving ahim at -1 when he could have unvoted, knowing that Zeek would hammer.

If Zeek is town, and therefore really believed DS was a self-lynching jester, he had to hammer to prevent DS from winning. If Zeek is scum, and did not believe DS was a self-lynching jester, he had (and wanted) to hammer to maintain his believability and to get a non-mafia member lynched. There was no way in which Zeek did not hammer if DS was at L-1. This means that putting DS at L-1 forces Zeek to hammer, regardless of his intend with his statement. And yes, I am therefore guilty of forcing Zeek to hammer, and have explained the reasons why I acted the way I did earlier in this post.