Mafia 75: Return of the Mafia! TOWN WINS (really late)

[Antithesis]

Hmm several different ways to read those deaths. All I can add is that, to me, a shotgun kills sounds like a PGO.

[Antithesis]

Paranoid Gun Owner Also know as an Army Vet

http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php ... _Gun_Owner

[Antithesis]

Well I should say, not known as an Army Vet but kind of similar to it.

If the Bodyguard is a Protector/Doctor type, could be that if he targeted a PGO for protection, the PGO would kill him.

[Antithesis]

Matt S

You wrote

And it's not the bandwagoning I'm against per se: It's the lack of discussion behind it. Battle Mage claimed miller. If he was scum, it seems fairly dumb. If he's town, he's trying to get the most out of whatever cops we may have left. The people who are actually discussing the issues I have no problem with. But there's been some votes that are just "I vote BM because he's scummy". And Rosso Carne is tired of people mentioning the cult recruiter. He's not the only one, but because he (probably) joked about killing people who continue the speculation of what "delayed" means, he got voted. Yeah, I don't think they should have as many votes as they do, but like you said, they aren't in danger, and overreacting again won't do any good.

I think this is a well reasoned assessment of the current state of the game, which says to me that you are following the game closely, you take it seriously, and you have adapted from the smaller newbie games to a 30 person game rather well. You seem to be replying often in response to questions from others, so you are also very actively involved in the game so far...

And yet, in the same post you claim

I overreacted.
For the games I played in the past, L-2 and just 2 weren't far apart, maybe off by one vote. It isn't easy getting used to votes just being thrown around.

Is it really that difficult of a transition? It would seem to me that the different number of votes is a most obvious part to adjust to.

[Antithesis]

Not sure what a vote on BM is supposed to achieve at this point. He's already claimed Miller, so it isn't like we can pressure him to claim. It is too early yet to build a consensus regarding his behavior or go by his voting record, it is still day one.

Then again, I think there is only peers voting on him now, so maybe its a moot point anyway.

I think that is part of the problem I have with the current crop of 'suspects'. People seem more than happy to drop a vote on someone, but I have yet to see anyone actually push for/ make a case against anyone so far. Everything to this point strikes me merely as a vote of convenience.

[Antithesis]

Changed Post 4 slightly to correct a mistake (Changed JDGA's death to Shotgunned rather than shot).

Also updated Vote Count

Do most of the Vig kills here at mafia scum involve shotguns? Rosso says it sounds like a Vig kill. Given what JDGA posted, and my experience elsewhere, I stand by my reading of it, which is that JD protected the PGO.

[Antithesis]

The vig discussion is one that really doesn't do much for me. First, as stated previously, I don't think it was a vig kill, and two, maybe its just me and my history elsewhere, but I am used to town vigs having restrictions placed on them, like if they kill a townie by accident, they leave the game as well. That sort of thing.

I guess the typical town vigilante here is much more... ruthless.

Either way, I don't see the point of treating the existence of a vig as a de facto certainty or not day 1 when another couple of phases will make that clear. Besides, I thought that sort of discussion would only help the mafia, anyway.

The Battlemage thing... a question for the veterans here. Is BM considered a strong townie player? By this I mean, does he have a rep as a strong scum hunter? If so, I do wonder why he wasn't targeted night one then.

Conversely, maybe I have misread things, and is BM more noteworthy as someone who always seems suspicious? By this I mean is BM one of those players who has a reputation for being hard to trust? If so, then I could see why scum would leave him alive, he's certainly managed to attract a lot of attention already. Then again, he himself has helped feed that with his Miller claim.

[Antithesis]

A concenus of a town player, lets the mafia know who to eliminate, keeping the scummiest players around to confuse the town.

Not that I disagree with you, but...

So what happens if, say, the Mafia doesn't eliminate that player... does he or she become a suspect by default, and thus loses their 'townie' status?

This isn't so much about this game, but a game I played here not that long ago, everyone's concensus townie player turned out to be scum, and I was the only person in the game to call them on it, only to have other townies argue with me and defend the fake townie over my accusations.

Sure, it was a newbie game, but still. It isn't like Mafia aren't playing blindly themselves. They'll try to kill perceived townie leaders regardless of what we say in the thread. IMO, the best townie players (especially those with power roles) act a little scummy and possibly ignorant early on, to avoid being targeted at night. The balance is not to overdo it and get lynched for it.

[Antithesis]

again, how does posting town list help anyone but the mafia?

I think it could be quite telling, in those cases when the poster is a member of the Mafia.

I guess my point was that it need not be inherently bad, per se... depends more on context and circumstance really. Though I do agree making such lists day 1 or 2 is perhaps so meaningless as to be silly, as enough time hasn't passed to make the list anything more than arbitrary at best.



BM, you asked

lol is anyone else getting exceptionally scummy vibes from this?

I think its a valid point, for what it is worth. Hypothetically, say its.. I dunno, day six or seven and only a handful of players remain, you being one of them. If we just go by the Miller claim, then yes, you might appear scummy enough to be mislynched.. possibly costing the town the game.

This however discounts how you play between now and then, and what contributions you might make for the town. Between your Miller claim and that hypothetical day six or seven, you might lead the charge on lynching quite a copious amount of scum, help redirect the town when it gets off course, possibly intuit some major information about the game's set up, thus helping townies make better informed decisions.

All that is possible, and it is why I don't feel it's necessarily a good idea to lynch someone who claims Miller early, or even late for that matter.

That said though, if its around day 3 or 4, and you havent voted for any scum lynchings, and you don't really contribute much in the way of helping the town win, that combined with the Miller claim should make you very suspect.

Just my opinion.

[Antithesis]

Nemesis and Antithesis, I've liked your contributions to the game so far but I've noticed that neither of you are currently voting. Where do your suspicions lie at this point in the game?

I am suspicious of everyone.

Aside from that, there is one person in particular I am watching at the moment, but I'd rather not say their name, at least, just yet.

[Antithesis]

--Edited by Mod--

-Albert

[Antithesis]

"And a claimed Miller shall lead them..."

Chapter 8, verse 12, from the Book of What the **** is this ****!

Just a quick meaningless mod opinion: Funniest Post of the Game so far. Keep up the good work!

[Antithesis]

ah. well if you're dangling it like so, I expect they'll deduce that you're not a power role. I don't see the point

Its called double reverse psychology...


with a twist.

[Antithesis]

Does anyone actually read around here. All I see is sarcasm going back and forth between WhoMe and Lloyd at this point.
@WhoMe: No a deadline does not need to be placed. I know things are a bit slow.
Why did people think the TLP wagon was going fast with 7 votes. I would have understood if it was closer to 11 votes then I would say yes that is a quick BW.
Those voting for Lloyd why are you voting against him?

Maybe they are voting against him to see who would ask, "Why are you voting against him" ?

[Antithesis]

Yes! New page! Quick reply is back on the screen!

The 1 interesting thing I've noticed from that chart so far is antithesis has yet to make a vote.

I am waiting for someone to make a rational, well thought case against someone else. So far, all I have seen is copious amounts of 'I think you are scummy for miniscule reason X' sort of posts and a bunch of wagon hopping. To wit I can make neither heads nor tails of where a majority of people stand.

That, plus I think it is entirely possible scum might be encouraging this behavior so as to make it easier for them to hide behind this monolithic wall of inane nonsense.

[Antithesis]

Yes! New page! Quick reply is back on the screen!

The 1 interesting thing I've noticed from that chart so far is antithesis has yet to make a vote.

I am waiting for someone to make a rational, well thought case against someone else. So far, all I have seen is copious amounts of 'I think you are scummy for miniscule reason X' sort of posts and a bunch of wagon hopping. To wit I can make neither heads nor tails of where a majority of people stand.

That, plus I think it is entirely possible scum might be encouraging this behavior so as to make it easier for them to hide behind this monolithic wall of inane nonsense.

HoS: AntiThesis

Scum Slip Up Alert! Sirens! Big flashing lights!
lol

Why are you simply waiting for someone to make a case, which you can hop onto, as opposed to making a case YOURSELF. If you are town, get some fecking motivation. Your laziness isnt going to help the game. If you are scum, i look forward to an impending town victory. You seriously think we're just going to let you get away with tagging along to others logic?

Conservative scum is my favourite

BM

Why am I waiting? Because I have no way of reading people who change their votes 3 times a week without botehring to attempt to justify it. My scumdar consists of gut feeling, and evaluating arguments.

To date, nearly every case made for or against anyone has been either weak, or out right fallacious.

Yet, surely some of the accussed must be scum. The sheer numbers involved would indicate as much. But the game, for me, has been like a bee hive.

And you are asking me to jump right in?

No thanks.

[Antithesis]

I am waiting for someone to make a rational, well thought case against someone else. So far, all I have seen is copious amounts of 'I think you are scummy for miniscule reason X' sort of posts and a bunch of wagon hopping. To wit I can make neither heads nor tails of where a majority of people stand.

That, plus I think it is entirely possible scum might be encouraging this behavior so as to make it easier for them to hide behind this monolithic wall of inane nonsense.

Why are you waiting for someone to do your job as a townie? Is it because you're not town, and need a strong BW to get behind?

Oh, I dunno, I may get around to making a case on someone when I feel pretty certain they are scum. Of course, my waiting isn't stopping you from doing the same, whenever you feel ready.

[Antithesis]

Sorry, this week was active IRL.

OK, I admit that post was fisher as hell, but i did it because I found Matt a little overdefensive for this stage of the game.

I am waiting for someone to make a rational, well thought case against someone else. So far, all I have seen is copious amounts of 'I think you are scummy for miniscule reason X' sort of posts and a bunch of wagon hopping. To wit I can make neither heads nor tails of where a majority of people stand.

That, plus I think it is entirely possible scum might be encouraging this behavior so as to make it easier for them to hide behind this monolithic wall of inane nonsense.

You do realize information doesn't just happen, right? If we don't begin tracking the smaller tells, we won't have anything for the later game.

Unvote. Vote: Antithesis

for being lazier than me.

Sigh.

I never said I didn't feel like hunting scum. I said I can't make sense out of all the previous wagon hopping. I'd venture to say that I am not alone in that.

[Antithesis]

so you're saying that if we don't post at least paragraph for votes we're automatically scum?
the "policy" should be as long as you have a good reason...quality is better than quantity

This is quite possibly the worst attempt at a strawman I have ever seen.

Please quote where I said posts had to be of a certain length. If your contention is that short arguments can contain quality, let me know when you want to start doing that. If what I quoted above is any indication, it might be a while.

[Antithesis]

Woops. I completely misread that. My apologies.

A post length requirement is a bad idea, and has nothing to do with what I said.

[Antithesis]

Anti, if you are town you dont want to be lynched, so do yourself a favour and post some analysis please. Get at least some opinions down. If you think all cases so far have been shit, what does that make you think about those pushing them (most probably me in particular).

I consider you to be a vey curious case.

On one hand, you have claimed Miller, early, making you suspicious to some, and on the otehr hand, you seem to be perhaps the most active person here in hunting scum, making you a target for a scum kill.

These two aspects, your claim, and your play, are seemingly in opposition. The less mindful among us may very well look at this and , in his or her confusion, think you are scum based upon this alone.

However, what you are doing is playing a very dangerous game, where you must keep some suspicion on you, so that scum will want to keep you alive, and yet, you must produce results for the town, so they don't lynch you.

If the game were just Mafia and a SK vs the Town, then what you are doing... I have seen before elsewhere.

What bothers me is the Cult.

Lets assume that they aren't dead, that there is a recruiter and a cult leader, as some Cults have.

The game you are playing works perfectly if you are, in fact, a cultist. What better way to explain away potential investigations then claim a Miller. And being Cult, with a seperate win condition (I imagine) from the Mafia, you'd be more than happy to serve the Mafia up to be lynched, all the while quietly going about your recruitments.

Of course, it being day one, and with the early death of a cultist, and no one countering your Miller claim (yet anyways) everything points to you being what you claim. However, as I mentioned in another post earlier, somewhere around day four or 5, if you are still alive, a hard look needs to be taken at your voting, and at your history in this game in general. Also by then, we may have a better understanding of the status of the cult. Understand that, even if you are a Townie miller now, I think claiming early makes you a damn near perfect target for recruitment later on.

I have decided to take a wait and see approach to you.

[Antithesis]

Unvote, Vote Antithesis

You last posts only dig a deeper hole, especially where you go off and accuse dahill of strawmanning....

I read his post and thought he was replying to me. In that case, his contention would have been a strawman. However, I caught my mistake and apologized, even added my thoughts on the one paragraph notion, that Ross brought up and that Dahill was actually speaking to.

If you believe that fact that I scrolled past a couple of posts by mistake makes me scummy, whatever. I went back and addressed the error.

[Antithesis]

You are being ridiculous. If you think arguments made are weak, then maybe you should consider looking at those PUSHING THE WEAK ARGUMENTS? -.-

This is a slightly different but related issue.

It strikes me that some are simply wagoning or posting to post, to seem active without doing anything at all.

My natural inclination is to think that this is scummy, but there are too many people doing it. To bring it home, so to speak, I cannot discern between people who are doing it because they are naive, against those who are doing it because its in their interests to do so. The only people who should be interested in playing this way, by page 30, are scum.

That isn't a scientific fact, but it is a fairly well followed rule of thumb here that even I managed to pick up, somehow.

Maybe I should do a metaread on everyone.

[Antithesis]

No it was my fault, I scrolled over the post you were referring to and I thought you were speaking to me. Again, my apologies.

[Antithesis]

So, at least you've been consistently looking for the easy wagon for over a month.

No, I've been looking to lynch scum. Maybe you have other motives that you want to ascribe to people, but I fail to see what is so difficult to understand about a townie wanting to lynch scun, and expressing his (I should say mine) exasperation at the fact that I find wagon jumping to be scummy, such that if a multitude of people engage in it, it confuses me to no end.

Even with a night behind us, the entire purpose of today is to develop and look for the small reactions, the tiny links, the things that do not become obvious until a couple of days are behind us. Waiting for the case to be made, so you can get behind it is not scumhunting.

Again, you misunderstand. I am quite willing to make cases on my own, that is, if there were more to go on than Person A votes for person B, then C, Then D, and person B votes on person A, then C, and Person D votes on person X, then A, and person X then votes on....
This is exactlky what was going on, but add to that, few people were actually trying to justify their votes. Now, I am sure you didn't sleep through all of this, so you must have seen it as well. I'll admit you have taken the trouble to address some of my points here, which means you are at least trying to justify your vote. I'd cheer you on, if it weren't for the fact that you either are purposefully trying to twist what I say (scumtell) or you refuse to recognize the point as being valid.

So I will ask. Which is it. Were people not jumping around on random wagons with little to no reason given, or did I just imagine it?

There SHOULD be lots of votes thrown around, and lots of wagon-shifts today. This is not a problem, this is a good thing.

Oh well, nevermind then. You say its a good thing. I say that its not how I find scum. It could very well be we are both right, and we could both be town as well.

Basically, what you are saying here is because I don't throw votes around at random, like a fool, I must be scum. This argument is inherently weak (weak arguments are, for me, scumtells). This is the stuff I like to evaluate. Your point is: random nonsense good, logical reasoning bad!
This isn't an either or situation, presenting it as such is a fallacy. Specifially, the either/or fallacy. Making fallacious arguments doe not mandate that you are scum, but does make me a tad more suspicious of you.

This was almost a month ago. Who was it, and how do you feel about them now? You know what, it doesn't really matter, because this is the type of post I've seen that when a strong wagon begins to go you can point back at this, whomever it is, and claim you've been watching them.

Why ask if you don't want to hear the answer? Actually, if you go back and re-read my posts, the answer isn't hidden at all. Since the person first drew my attention i asked him several innocuous questions, and have been trying to follow him ever since. I have no problem saying that his latest ploy has me rather confused, but that is nothing new, there is much in this game that i am uncertain about.

But as you say, it is day 1. And We are all looking for little signs, here and there. Why is it for you, this becomes an excuse to act, but for someone who would wait and see, it becomes worthy of a vote? Have you ever read Hamlet? Not to spoil it, but at the end, after all that moping around and thinking things over, Hamlet does kill his uncle.

Ooh, here's one of those minor things you love so much. Why "them" and not "us"?

Who said I love minor things? Maybe you ahve confused me with yourself, and you just happen to love minors? Or maybe Miners?

Who knows. But if you are going to make stuff up I can as well.

Now, as to your point, why them and not us? Simple. BM doesn't lead me. You didn't see me jumping on the half dozen or so wagons he started do you?

Hope that answers your question.

Are you suggesting that if, in fact, the cult began with a leader and a separate recruiter, that both can recruit? Otherwise, why are you worried about them? The recruiter is the one who is dead.

Why mention it? Because I am playing a game right now off site where the cult recruiter died night one and the leader took over recruitment thereafter. There is nothing in the Wiki I've read that says Cult recruitment absolutely has to stop with the death of the recruiter.

Maybe it did, maybe it didn't. I just think it shouldn't be forgotten, lest it become a reality later. Why, does my mentioning it make you uncomforatble?

[Antithesis]

Much as i'd like to think otherwise, i highly doubt the mafia are going to try and waste an NK on a claimed vanilla. lol!

I dunno, I think they'd try to kill you if you were tearing them a new one. I can already see you are starting to move into a leadership position here. In my experience, scum do not like town leaders.

But then again you did claim Miller, so we'll see.

[Antithesis]

ROFL. Yeh thats right. Im the last remaining Cult Member. Im basically a survivor from Day 1 onwards. So ya know what i do? I draw as much attention to myself as possible, making it virtually impossible for me to survive to anywhere near endgame.
I'm nearly wetting myself with laughter here!

Again, everything points to you being what you've claimed.. for now anyways. Thats always the case in mafia. Claims get tested, if by nothing else, the apprehension of a counter claim.

I'm actually shaking in my boots.

I doubt I'll make it that long.

[Antithesis]

@Antithesis: Not everyone is wagon hopping around. Some people voted based on crap unvoting (TLP) and saying there was a deadline when there wasn't. Some votes are based on those not participating and voting to vote without reason and making OMGUS comments instead of answering questions directed at them (Killa seven). It's not all nonsense if you are reading. You still haven't answered my question about your "quote" on your sig. Do you have proff that was said word for word by me because I take offense at slander.

Post # 63, from Short and Sweet Two.
Written by Farside22

Holy crap! I'm sorry that was really unexpected story twist I did not see coming.
Well I am sorry a few people don't like what I have had to say. I am just trying to keep up and put my own view points in here. Sorry it isn't up to people standards. I truely thought the discussion about what scum would and would not do was terrible. If people want to give the scum idea's on what they can get away with then the will be glad to point the finger along with those people. That was my issue. It's almost like hanging a sign on yourself saying hey scum I'm a sap come agree with me.
Sorry, I'm just passionate.
Well I didn't think others were right about Antithesis.

He did a dumb newbie thing and role claimed and somehow in the middle of the day got killed because of it.

I almost want to look at every person that voted against him for the killer, but I don't think the person who did that would be that stupid.
Based on Ether point of view and the only one that I feel had the best comments thus far I will be changing my vote.

Now kindly stop asking me to change my sig.

[Antithesis]

Antithesis: After his response to the issue I brought up about him not voting, I'm very happy with my vote here right now.

Unvote, Vote Antithesis

You last posts only dig a deeper hole, especially where you go off and accuse dahill of strawmanning....

Says here you voted on my reply to dahill. You have yet to explain why that makes me worthy of a vote, actually you have failed to explain your vote on me at all. Maybe you think my name is some safe harbor you can hide out at until deadline, but I would really like to see you justify your vote.

[Antithesis]

?

Its fairly obvious. You said you didn't want to vote anyone because no one was scummy, which is complete BS and obviously you covering yourself for trying not to get involved in a potentially attention getting wagon.

Didn't feel like it needed explaining.

I never said no one was scummy. Please point to where I said that. I said I couldn't discern between scum wagon hopping and naive (i.e. newbie) wagon hopping. In fact I am on record as stating that i find wagon hopping scummy in and of itself.

Now, you are just making shit up.

[Antithesis]

Again, quote where I said no one was scum.

I see some quotes relating to the fact that I have admitted I find it difficult to pick up on scum at this point in the game and... you are going to lynch me for that?

Aside from myself, tell me, master scum hunter, who else is obviously scum here, so that I my sup at the font of your wisdom.

[Antithesis]

So you think Matt S is town?

[Antithesis]

Again, quote where I said no one was scum.

You don't have to say no one was

scummy

to imply it. The only excuse for implying that is laziness or not wanting to be found, and your posts are advanced enough I'm leaning B.

Instead of imagining what I mean, why not read what I say? I said I found the wagon hopping scummy but could not discern as to which hoppers are actually scum. Isn't that alone enough to negate whatever silly implication you hallucinate?

[Antithesis]

Didn't you think Matt's entire 'guess my role' bit was odd? Or his earlier mistakes? Is their some kind of dissonance or perhaps, distance, between you two?

[Antithesis]

I felt he handled himself well enough in response to this last round of attacks that he isn't on my top scum list.

As for scummy vs scum, you seem to act like you only vote people you are sure are scum, not those who are scummy. Not the case. You attack people you think are scummy to garner responses to get reads to determine who is scum, then lynch them.

Eh.. I think it comes down to what a person has found that works for them. This is the first full sized game here that I was able to start in from the very beginning. My other games here I either joined into them after the wagon stuff was over, or it was a game with time and post limits, so band wagons were not going to be prevalent anyway. A majority of games I have played were offsite. They have all had 48 hour day phases and 24 hour night phases. There, literally, you can vote on someone and log off only to learn they were lynched an hour later.

So, maybe that is why I tend to be more cautious with my vote.

[Antithesis]

The Killa deal.. is that just a day one thing, or is it a consistent thing regardless of where the game is at?

[Antithesis]

I dunno. If I was scum I'd certainly try to avoid doing anything zany on the way to a deadline. Not saying Killa can be reformed into someone more productive... if that is his history, there are arguments out there about eliminating distractions early, regardless of their allignment.

I just can't help but think that his actions might be a tad too convenient to be real scum. Then again, maybe he's counting on people to believe that.

[Antithesis]

I say Antithesis is our best option for reasons I have already stated. If people don't follow me there, I'm willing to vote TNE just so we get a lynch on someone decently scummy who isn't being replaced right now (oEJo)

Decently scummy?

Why not look at the people who pushed for the Killa lynch (assuming Killa's being honest) ?

[Antithesis]

Well, at least ya didn't start in alphabetical order

[Antithesis]

I agree the throat slash sounds a tad too much SKish. Plus, I kind of expected for an SK to be in a game of this size.

I dunno

[Antithesis]

Anyone think there might be two vigs, and one gets to pick his kill style, and he just happened to pick a knife?

not vig

oh and

vote killa7

[Antithesis]

Is it possible they are both telling the truth?

2 vigs versus a mafia and a cult?

[Antithesis]

As for the Farside deal.

She was a replacement, wasn't she? Asking her about why someone else did or did not do something is pointless.

[Antithesis]

Looks like there is a lynch party goin on right here.

[Antithesis]

Oh my, I missed a lot. Some real life stuff has come up and there is no way I can keep track of this game any longer.

Consider this a request to replace me.