Open 60: The New C9 - Game over!

[kabenon007]

I agree that a particular scumtell, or even town tell, cannot be placed on everyone. Take vollkan for instance. His large posts, contentful, appear pro-town. But he also does them when he is scum. I want to wait for a recent vote count before I vote, mostly because I don't have time to check myself. (I'm lazy and busy, sue me!)

[vollkan]

Take vollkan for instance. His large posts, contentful, appear pro-town. But he also does them when he is scum.

Yes. Content from me is a nulltell.

[Spacecase]

Thank you for explaining the relevance of past games. Also sorry for not posting as much. My computer is messed up and im currently posting off my wii...

[LaptopGun]

Myself, Phate, Shteven, and Oman all appear to have one vote each but I could have missed some, I did a very quick scan.

If posting from a Wii is anything like posting from an iPod Touch, I feel for you buddy.

While we're waiting for an official vote count, I'd like to figure out a few things from the vote of ysterday. I have something I'd like to address about the voting yesterday that I just figured out. Intially I thought, unless my count was inncorrect, that players piled on after Six Aces already had enough votes to be lynched. This was Shteven and SSF. Would anyone find it below the mafia to pile on after a scum buddy's fate has already been sealed in order to blend in with the town? I thought so. However, I was wrong. I thought Peers had hammered Six Aces and I made a comment about his advatar being appropriate. I was mistaken, as everyone knows that Peers voted for Jess. Oops. SO Shteven cast the deciding vote, hence my count is wrong int that regard. That does leave SSF casting a meaningless 11th vote, but it's within a reasonable time of Shteven's post. More importantly, he could have miscounted like I did. So that leaves me in the same place I was talking baout scumtells and metadefenses.

[Shteven]

If I may offer some unsolicited advice, if you are posting some factual analysis, such as me and SSF's vote being after the hammer, and then recheck it to find out that only SSF's vote was unnecessary, then just remove the first part and post the correct portion

A lot of people have thoughts about which positions on bandwagons are most likely to be scum. The 3rd and 4th positions being likely scum is even posted in the wiki, and I notice many people think that the hammer can be a scummy position. I don't put too much stock into positions, as you can generally hold off a day or two and change it, although the 3rd/4th ones are useful for pushing something that might not make it. In this case, though, once Jesse claimed the guilty result, the wagon was almost certain, and position isn't going to tell you much of anything other than who saw the claim first.

In that sense, I think SSF was just late to the party and wanted to contribute thoughts. I don't think it's a strong tell either way, and I'm not even sure you could get a weak tell out of it either. I'd be more inclined to ask MadCrawdad why he didn't place a vote yesterday. What did you think of the six aces wagon, MC?

[MadCrawdad]

If I may offer some unsolicited advice, if you are posting some factual analysis, such as me and SSF's vote being after the hammer, and then recheck it to find out that only SSF's vote was unnecessary, then just remove the first part and post the correct portion

A lot of people have thoughts about which positions on bandwagons are most likely to be scum. The 3rd and 4th positions being likely scum is even posted in the wiki, and I notice many people think that the hammer can be a scummy position. I don't put too much stock into positions, as you can generally hold off a day or two and change it, although the 3rd/4th ones are useful for pushing something that might not make it. In this case, though, once Jesse claimed the guilty result, the wagon was almost certain, and position isn't going to tell you much of anything other than who saw the claim first.

In that sense, I think SSF was just late to the party and wanted to contribute thoughts. I don't think it's a strong tell either way, and I'm not even sure you could get a weak tell out of it either. I'd be more inclined to ask MadCrawdad why he didn't place a vote yesterday. What did you think of the six aces wagon, MC?

Leading up to Six Aces lynching I mentioned that I thought he was likely scum, however, I held off voting him as it was a pretty quick wagon. My concern wasn't really that the town was making a mistake, but more along the lines that some may not have been ready to end the day, or may have had more questions to ask of Six Aces. I didn't want to help bury him before most folks were ready to do so . By the time I came back, he was already gone.

As far as the wagon, it was quick, but on the money.... of interest is the fact that both Phate and yourself expressed hesitation regarding the speed of the wagon yet piled on (which kept it moving along), you even hammered. If concerned, wouldn't it have been more prudent to hold off on voting (and especially hammering)?

SSF hopping on post mortem does seem a little odd, as well...

[Jesse Gunn]

Wouldn't mafia be more likely to not vote at all, last round?

[vollkan]

While we're waiting for an official vote count, I'd like to figure out a few things from the vote of ysterday. I have something I'd like to address about the voting yesterday that I just figured out. Intially I thought, unless my count was inncorrect, that players piled on after Six Aces already had enough votes to be lynched. This was Shteven and SSF. Would anyone find it below the mafia to pile on after a scum buddy's fate has already been sealed in order to blend in with the town? I thought so. However, I was wrong. I thought Peers had hammered Six Aces and I made a comment about his advatar being appropriate. I was mistaken, as everyone knows that Peers voted for Jess. Oops. SO Shteven cast the deciding vote, hence my count is wrong int that regard. That does leave SSF casting a meaningless 11th vote, but it's within a reasonable time of Shteven's post. More importantly, he could have miscounted like I did. So that leaves me in the same place I was talking baout scumtells and metadefenses.

To be frank, I don't believe that scum are any more likely to vote before the hammer than after. A guilty investigation is a death sentence, so it seems most sensible to me that scum would willingly join the wagon, in the hopes of blending in. SSF's vote is basically a nulltell.

[MadCrawdad]

Wouldn't mafia be more likely to not vote at all, last round?

Always a possibility, but not an effective method of blending in....

[LaptopGun]

It was noticeabl enough for me. Then again, as I said, it could mean nothing. SSF has been pretty much protown vibe (granted the game has moved alarmingly quick so the body of posts for everyone is pretty low). Shteven seems to be the same way. Sorry for bringing weird things to attention.

[Oman]

The problem with voting as mafia is 1) it solidifys your position and 2) the bold sticks out.

[The Fonz]

The problem with voting as mafia is 1) it solidifys your position and 2) the bold sticks out.

Can you explain this? Not 100% what you're saying here. I personally see little reason for scum *not* to bus a partner with a guilty on him. You may recall my pissed-offness in Stargate when wagoned for apparently having 'avoided' a Theo lynch, when in fact there was no point between his claim being busted and his death when I could have. Being on an obvscum wagon to me means absolutely nothing.

Opposing it is something I haven't really thought about. Anecdotally, one of my favourite newbscum tells in RTR games is being more sceptical than is justified about a claim.

[The Fonz]

*Should be haven't really figured out, not haven't thought about.

[Oman]

They should definatly bus their partner UNLESS its late in the game and they have previously displayed doubts about the cop.

I'm more sceptical about a claim if its in the wrong places (like D1) I keep thinking "man, this would make a great scum gambit!"

[-TinVision-]

Second Vote Count of the Day

Oman: 1

(

Phate

)

Shteven: 1

(

kabenon007

)

LaptopGun: 1

(

farside22

)

Phate: 1

(

Oman

)

farside22: 1

(

Shteven

)

Not voting: 10 (

Jesse Gunn, Justin Playfair, LaptopGun, MadCrawdad, OpposedForce, somestrangeflea, Spacecase, The Fonz, vollkan, Wesaq

)

[farside22]

Typically if scum see's there partner is going down they will join the wagon to look town. You can hardly ever tell which person is the scum.

[somestrangeflea]

I'm more sceptical about a claim if its in the wrong places (like D1) I keep thinking "man, this would make a great scum gambit!"

I agree with this, but as I said earlier

I don't think any sane Mafia buddies would let half their team go out on a claiming, self-lynching gambit.

And I stand by it... Risk v reward just doesn't seem right.

[Phate]

I think it's foolish to suspect the claimed cop with a correct guilty as scum. In agreement with SSF: scumgambit is possible but certainly not likely.

[kabenon007]

I think we should keep the idea that Jesse might be scum in the back of our minds, just as a last thought kind of thing. We can scum hunt without worrying about it too much. If we can't figure it out, we can always go back and examine him thoroughly later.

[Shteven]

I think we should keep the idea that Jesse might be scum in the back of our minds, just as a last thought kind of thing. We can scum hunt without worrying about it too much. If we can't figure it out, we can always go back and examine him thoroughly later.

It seems like Jesse's dominating the thread; there isn't much other hunting going on at all. I'm not saying I'm blameless in this either, and a lot of it is due to the shortness of day 1, but there isn't exactly much going on that we need a reminder to not forget Jesse.

[vollkan]

I think we should keep the idea that Jesse might be scum in the back of our minds, just as a last thought kind of thing. We can scum hunt without worrying about it too much. If we can't figure it out, we can always go back and examine him thoroughly later.

It seems like Jesse's dominating the thread; there isn't much other hunting going on at all. I'm not saying I'm blameless in this either, and a lot of it is due to the shortness of day 1, but there isn't exactly much going on that we need a reminder to not forget Jesse.

I agree.

The main problem I am seeing in this game is that, given the events of D1, we've missed out on the sort of snowballing discussion that is usually generated on D1.

For now, I am going to

Vote: Kabenon

. I didn't like his stance on shteven, and that's the best lead I have right now.

[kabenon007]

Just expressing my opinion, Shteven. That way, when people ask what it was, I can go back and point to a specific spot and say, Look there it is! Instead of saying "Well, judging from how I worded this post, I felt XXX." Much more concrete, more helpful to the town.

[-TinVision-]

Rigel replaces OpposedForce

.

[Rigel]

Hey, I'm your friendly neighborhood replacement. I'm reading the thread at the moment, but I'll get a post up as soon as I'm done.

[farside22]

@kabenon007 :

Were you thinking about putting some pressure on Wesaq because of his comments about random vote that wasn't so random. What ever happened with that?