Mini 520 - Triumvirate Mafia - ABANDONED

[Mizzy]

This is why I don't support an MoS lynch. Yes, MoS is dangerous if he's scum, but if he's town (which is 75% likely), he's a huge asset to lose.

AND we would lose his kitty avatar...

T_T

[Mastermind of Sin]

Actually it's a cake avatar, at least for the next month. But if you keep me alive for a month, the kitty can return!

[Mizzy]

Actually it's a cake avatar, at least for the next month. But if you keep me alive for a month, the kitty can return!

Oh yeah, did I hear something about you getting Glork's avi?

[TrustGossip]

<<That cake is gross.>>

Also Mizzy/MoS, if you're going to off-topic would you mind moving it to AIM? I say this with politeness and no ill will.

[Mastermind of Sin]

It's not like we're interrupting anything...

[somestrangeflea]

I came upon this problem in another game, where people tried to give their votes to other people because they were protown.

There's a very big difference between proxying and what's going on here.

I come up town you can say you were just going along with the majority and point out that you had me somewhere in the middle of your list.

You were top of the list. You just happened to be there along with 8 other people.

Voting for someone before all the vote strings were in, and voting without discussion really bothers me. It also bothers me that he makes his actions out to be honorable. Voting an unconfirmed "winner" without talk first and giving the impression he thought we would all do the same...grr. I don't like it.

It had been two days since anyone voted. I found it difficult to imagine that anyone else would. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Well, we DO need a lynch, and he IS my #2.

Is it just me, or is there something inherently flawed with wanting the lynch of your #2 lynch candidate?

[Mizzy]

Well, we DO need a lynch, and he IS my #2.

Is it just me, or is there something inherently flawed with wanting the lynch of your #2 lynch candidate?

No, I think that's just you, especially since my number one candidate was, if you look at my old vote chain, not someone I thought was scum. There's more than one scum in the game, you know, so why should having a second choice be a bad thing?

[TrustGossip]

I would like to say a big LOL that the most recent conversations have basically illuminated my point that condorcet lists are anti-town.

No-one has really been truthful with them, all they serve as are tools to manipulate collective opinion.

Minor FOS: Everyone except Rishi and MoS

Condorcet = NOOOO

[skitzer]

Your FoSing everyone because they made a list that you thought was untruthful?
I know mine was, this list couldn't of had a major effect anyway unless people actually agreed to condorcet voting and lynching.

[Mizzy]

I would like to say a big LOL that the most recent conversations have basically illuminated my point that condorcet lists are anti-town.

No-one has really been truthful with them, all they serve as are tools to manipulate collective opinion.

Minor FOS: Everyone except Rishi and MoS

Condorcet = NOOOO

Did the part where we don't have 10 mafia in this game ever occur to you?

[TrustGossip]

Did the part where we don't have 10 mafia in this game ever occur to you?

Did it ever occur to you that constant anxiety over the setup and the mechanics of triumvirates could possibly cause this game to become a cesspool of stagnation that is the perfect ecological niche for scum?

I am only reporting on my opinions. This is what I've gathered that those who have made lists are guilty of.

1. Agreeing to condorcet voting.
On the surface this seems to be a mechanistic way to find some way to end the day. In reality this is like discussing your country's counterintelligence program while knowing that spies are in your midst.

2. Falsifying condorcet results. There are two reasons why someone would do this. Either they would like to appease the restrictions of condorcet methodology and they have a tenuous grasp of who they are suspicious of, or they are intentionally misrepresenting suspicion in order to manipulate possible voting.

I can kind of see how 24 pages can make someone complacent, but I'm incredulous. I've never seen a town made more lackadaisical just because the details of a setup are known.

What is wrong with you people?

[Rishi]

I think people are being a little harsh on TrustGossip and I can see why he's getting frustrated.

I agree that condorcet voting is a bad idea. And I think TrustGossip is dead on the money about the stagnation in this game being caused by the anxiety of possibly lynching one of the Triumvirate. Heck, 3 Mafia vs. 7 Vanilla Townies (which is what we'll get if we lynch Triumvirate) is bad odds for town, but it's not impossible to overcome.

I think TrustGossip could be a little calmer in stating his opinions and there's no need to point fingers at everyone. I don't support condorcet voting, but I don't think people who are embracing it are necessarily scum.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I came upon this problem in another game, where people tried to give their votes to other people because they were protown.

There's a very big difference between proxying and what's going on here.

No, there isn't, and you know it. The fundamental problem with both situations is divestment of responsibility. They're a lot more similar than you're making them out to be.

I come up town you can say you were just going along with the majority and point out that you had me somewhere in the middle of your list.

You were top of the list. You just happened to be there along with 8 other people.

So why does your suspicion list have 8 people tied for first? Unafraid to single anyone out on your own?

Vote: Somestrangeflea

[Mizzy]

Did it ever occur to you that constant anxiety over the setup and the mechanics of triumvirates could possibly cause this game to become a cesspool of stagnation that is the perfect ecological niche for scum?

Actually, yes it has. I said I'd be perfectly happy to vote for a good scum candidate, but none had really showed itself. My hesitancy was not JUST because of the game set-up but also because of a lack of a target.

1. Agreeing to condorcet voting.On the surface this seems to be a mechanistic way to find some way to end the day. In reality this is like discussing your country's counterintelligence program while knowing that spies are in your midst.

With how little participation we had, at the time, I thought the condorcet voting was better than a deadline lynch and a no-lynch. Lesser of evils. If my opinion is not correct in your eyes, it does not make me scum. It just means that we have conflicting opinions.

2. Falsifying condorcet results. There are two reasons why someone would do this. Either they would like to appease the restrictions of condorcet methodology and they have a tenuous grasp of who they are suspicious of, or they are intentionally misrepresenting suspicion in order to manipulate possible voting.

Or, it could be that not all of us were voting for scum and were voting for lurkers, instead. But that doesn't mean the lists were falsified. My list was honest...I had someone I felt was lurking too much in slot A and possible scum in slot B...but I wasn't sure enough of the scum candidate to lynch him at that point.

[Shanba]

Vote Count:

3: Miztef

(Elmo, Rishi, Cephrir)

3: flea

(TrustGossip, Mizzy, MoS)

2: MoS

(Phate, flea)

1: Rishi

(Thin_Man)

Not voting: skitzer, Sir Tornado, Miztef, spurgistan

Not convinced by the accuracy of this votecount

Urk...

Should be accurate now

[skitzer]

I honestly don't truly agree with condorcet voting. But I DO feel we need to get off Day 1

[Elmo]

Don't 100% agree with TrustGossip, but I agree with the principle; the reason I agreed with (suggested, whatever) condorcet voting is because we were supposed to be having a deadline placed soon after that time, and we needed some sorta consensus. Then the replacements started happening. I'd be quite happy to do it, like, the normal way, but it hadn't been happening for the past 20 pages, and it didn't look like it would happen, to me. I'm not happy about that, but that's the way it goes.

*shrug*

I think concorcet vote analysis is certainly different.. I'm not convinced that it makes voting records useless, although order is obviously important. My condorcet list is truthful.. I really, really dislike the idea that anyone is saying theirs is not, because, well, you shouldn't be lying if you're pro-town, obv?

Not sure what'll happen if we wagon someone claiming triumvirate. I would suggest that

we never put anyone at more than L-2 without a claim

as a scum quickhammer would be very viable if people didn't unvote.

You were top of the list. You just happened to be there along with 8 other people.

I especially dislike this. Why are you meant to be pro-town, again?

I'm kind of pissed that we've gone from everyone agreeing with each other that not a lot's happening and something should be done about it to everyone agreeing that MoS is scummy but not a lot's happened and something should be done about it.

My dislike of MoS stems mostly from this and the fact that he generally smells funny. I think he's scummy, but no, I don't know why he's public enemy #1 either. This fact annoys me.

edit:

I honestly don't truly agree with condorcet voting. But I DO feel we need to get off Day 1

Okay. Cop result claims, doc probably didn't stop the NK, statistically the roleblocker shouldn't have used their night action and either way didn't do anything. Assume we've got an innocent result and a dead townie. Now what? I mean siriusly, this is why we can't have nice things, kids; we need scumhunting, not so much just a lynch.

Mod

: I are voting Miztif from 495! Thanks!

*<3*

[somestrangeflea]

Well, we DO need a lynch, and he IS my #2.

Is it just me, or is there something inherently flawed with wanting the lynch of your #2 lynch candidate?

No, I think that's just you, especially since my number one candidate was, if you look at my old vote chain, not someone I thought was scum. There's more than one scum in the game, you know, so why should having a second choice be a bad thing?

Oh, you were referring to #2 on your vote list. I thought you meant just #2 in general...

No, there isn't, and you know it. The fundamental problem with both situations is divestment of responsibility. They're a lot more similar than you're making them out to be.

If I proxy my vote onto someone else, I think that person is town. Going along with the condorcet results is essentially me proxying my vote to the entire town, which is guaranteed to have three scum manipulating it and is therefore... worse.

Ohkay I think you win.

So why does your suspicion list have 8 people tied for first? Unafraid to single anyone out on your own?

Unafraid?
Unable.

[Shanba]

Everyone who is actually inactive has been replaced, and the others have promised to post. As such, this game is now deadlined - Feb 16, officially midnight Eastern America time (which I think is 6 AM my time), but all votes will be counted up until I lock the thread (likely a few hours later)

[somestrangeflea]

Unable.

But I'm going to have a damn good shot at trying...

I shall return with thoughts in the future...

[Elmo]

Going along with the condorcet results is essentially me proxying my vote to the entire town

...what? In what way is that even vaguely correct? I suppose it's irrelevant, but I still wonder what's going on there.

Why do you think you're unable to single anyone out? I mean, you're here to hunt scum; what's been preventing you from doing so?

Ninja edit: Okay, good.

[Rishi]

Not sure what'll happen if we wagon someone claiming triumvirate. I would suggest that

we never put anyone at more than L-2 without a claim

as a scum quickhammer would be very viable if people didn't unvote.

How useful are claims in this game though? If a scum is going down, there's a good chance that they are going to claim Triumvirate which will force us to turn our attentions elsewhere. (Since the Three Triumvirates aren't going to counterclaim.)

[Miztef]

Not sure what'll happen if we wagon someone claiming triumvirate. I would suggest that

we never put anyone at more than L-2 without a claim

as a scum quickhammer would be very viable if people didn't unvote.

How useful are claims in this game though? If a scum is going down, there's a good chance that they are going to claim Triumvirate which will force us to turn our attentions elsewhere. (Since the Three Triumvirates aren't going to counterclaim.)

I have to agree, claims are basically useless. Even if scum claims townie, everyone is gonna be up in arms saying "oh, a scum wouldn't claim townie, they'd claim trium!".

My stand on this is that

claiming is irrelevant

because it will only cause more confusion. I won't condemn someone for claiming, just saying it's unlikely to affect my decision.

[Elmo]

I think you've missed the point of what I said, which is that we shouldn't put someone in a position to be hammered until we've heard their claim and decided to lynch them based on that.

Claiming is hardly irrelevant to me, I just don't subscribe to any hard-and-fast rules about what to do; I'll figure it out when it happens. I've toyed with some ideas, but I'm not happy with any of them, yet. But I do think we should be asking for claims, and I'm not convinced that all the scum will claim trium.

[Elmo]

EBWOP: What I am concerned about is the following:

1. Someone looks scummy and is placed at l-1.
2. They claim trium.
3. A scumbag comes online before anyone unvotes, and knows they must be telling the truth, and hammers.
4. We lose all the power roles in exchange for lynching one scumbag the next day.
5. We lose.
6. ???
7. Profit!