PIRATES v. NINJAS! Game Over!

[Skruffs]

As scum, obv.
sorry thesp. >.>

So Cicero you KNOW that scum get to talk to each other? HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT MISTER CICERO??

[Mgm]

You're right. Serves me right. I shouldn't have read the thread when my brain was still full of work-related stuff. Consider the vote retracted for now.

Unvote: Guardian

[cicero]

[quote="The Fonz"][quote="Twomz"]

Vote: KaleiÐoscøpe

for no apparent reason other than I always think he's scum for not saying why he votes and never ever posting any content that I can remember.[/quote]

I'm really not comfortable with wagonning someone for something you admit he 'always' does. I don't think Kscope is one of those players whose very existence is town-threatening, and I don't think two weeks to deadline is a reason to lynch just anybody.[/quote]

OK, Fonz and everyone. I want to take a second to address this. In one of my many games, which shall all remain nameless, I am currently at the end. I am in the interesting position of getting to choose who dies because I'm confirmed town. My choice will end the game. Three other players remain. One of them will be dead in the morning. Two of them really havent said shit the whole game. Nothing. And they made it to endgame. This means that I may have to choose between two blank teflon slates. OR between one very active player and one blank slate. Either way, I would be in a much better position if I had some actual play to review before I make my call. But I don't.

And that is why letting day one lurkers live is bad. There is never going to be a better time to swat them, I don't think. There will always be some super scummy player that takes the focus. Then the lurkers just keep on livin' until you're one of the last townies alive and you're swinging at the pinata with your blindfold on. I know you dont get as much info on day one but you trade it for more info at end-game.

So that's my take. What's your advice? When do we swat these corner dwellers? What is the appropriate time and manner for dealing with them?

Just curious.

[Erg0]

I find cicero's point about scum strategy interesting, and possibly accurate/applicable but:

1. It would mean Thesp is town, something I'm not sure I'm comfortable with
2. It boils down to WIFOM easily
3. Why are you thinking about scum strategy, cicero?

Where were you when Skruffs and I were discussing this a few pages ago?

Also, I can't see how thinking about scum strategy could be considered a scumtell. How are you supposed to find them without considering how they're likely to act?

[Erg0]

cicero, I can sympathise as I've been in a similar position in the past - but there's no need to lynch the lurker

immediately

. The first few kills tend to thin them out a bit, and we get much more information from wagonning more active players than pursuing easy lurker lynches.

[cicero]

cicero, I can sympathise as I've been in a similar position in the past - but there's no need to lynch the lurker

immediately

. The first few kills tend to thin them out a bit, and we get much more information from wagonning more active players than pursuing easy lurker lynches.

The time is never right, it seems. Yes... we will get more information now. But we might pay for it dearly later. And lots of info is upcoming anyway, with nightkills, investigations and what not. Which means from a town strategy viewpoint, after a robust day like this, if you can spot someone who is likely not going to become an active contributor and will therefore remain opaque, an excellent strategy would be to wagon and possibly lynch that person.

Ah well. That's my counterpoint to "lynch all lurkers" is dumb. Do with it what you will y'all. You know my feelings.

[Thok]

What am I missing, Thok?

Assuming you aren't partners with Guardian, and you honestly believe what you are saying, you're missing the fact that Guardian is Guardian and not Mafiabot X352. Given his style of play, he's never going to lurk and given his style of play he's always going to want to exert some control over town.

You're also assuming that scum focus on hunting scum during the day. Really they just want any lynch they can get. After all scum can use night to remove the opposing scum groups from the game.

[cicero]

What am I missing, Thok?

Assuming you aren't partners with Guardian, and you honestly believe what you are saying, you're missing the fact that Guardian is Guardian and not Mafiabot X352. Given his style of play, he's never going to lurk and given his style of play he's always going to want to exert some control over town.

You're also assuming that scum focus on hunting scum during the day. Really they just want any lynch they can get. After all scum can use night to remove the opposing scum groups from the game.

1. Paragraph one: I don't have good meta on Guardian. You two can hash that out. I can't account for it. I know some reputational things about Guardian but not much.

2. Absolutely not: In this game there is a cross-kill impediment for scum. It isn't no cross-kill but it IS designed as a disincentive. My original post feels more like a refutation of this last post of your because you havent said anything new to refute what I said. You just reiterated your opinion of optimal scum play, which I believe I have demonstrated is incorrect.

I agree that dumb scum might not care who they lynch. Do you think Guardian and Thesp would be dumb scum or smart scum?

[Gorrad]

Thok's right about Guardian's playstyle. Accursed Ork massclaim...

[cicero]

K. I looked at Ork mafia

Guardian is town in that game. What are you trying to tell me? How does his play differ as town and as scum? If at all. This is what I need to consider. Essentially, are his cases and reasoning demonstrably better when he is town? Is that the point?

[Guardian]

Thok's right about Guardian's playstyle. Accursed Ork massclaim...

Woah woah, it's enough that Thok is proposing (and heck maybe even believing) this. How is my playstyle significantly different here:

BTW Thok, I'm not overtly attacking you because I think you can out-argue me as you scum me town, just as well as you can out argue me as me town you scum. I find you very suspicious for this attack on me, especially since you are picking out selective points that help you and others you don't, but there isn't much concrete to point to, and generally things result badly if I just say "I find X very suspicious. Why? OMGUS."



Go find a real scumbag, wtf.

The one thing your attacks are encouraging is me posting less. For all you can say about you not attacking me for being active, and how I need to be active, and whatever whatever, its a choice, a choice you are discouraging. THis same exact thing happaned to me in Big Love Mafia, and I stopped posting and got replaced because of it. Not a signle one of your points against me is not punishing me for being vocal. Not a asignle one.

[Thok]

Thok's right about Guardian's playstyle. Accursed Ork massclaim...

Woah woah, it's enough that Thok is proposing (and heck maybe even believing) this. How is my playstyle significantly different here:

The point about your play style (which I think Gorrad mangled by his comment), was that you aren't the type to sit back and not participate. I don't consider your massive amount of participation by itself a scum tell; I consider the fact that you specifically keep running up people that strike me as townish and that you use bad reasons to do so scummy. The context was that cicero was wondering why any scum would behave the way you were doing; my point was that I'd expect you to be aggressive independent of your alignment, so that cicero's comment about scum wouldn't necessarily be applicable to you.

BTW Thok, I'm not overtly attacking you because I think you can out-argue me as you scum me town, just as well as you can out argue me as me town you scum. I find you very suspicious for this attack on me, especially since you are picking out selective points that help you and others you don't, but there isn't much concrete to point to, and generally things result badly if I just say "I find X very suspicious. Why? OMGUS."

Oh come on. When has "I'm afraid things will go badly for me" ever kept you from OMGUSing in the past? I could see you holding back if you ever found me town, but you've repeated said that you find things I've said scummy, but you apparently don't want to try to call me out or get me lynched.

Go find a real scumbag, wtf.

I have found a real scumbag, kthx die.

The one thing your attacks are encouraging is me posting less. For all you can say about you not attacking me for being active, and how I need to be active, and whatever whatever, its a choice, a choice you are discouraging. THis same exact thing happaned to me in Big Love Mafia, and I stopped posting and got replaced because of it. Not a signle one of your points against me is not punishing me for being vocal. Not a asignle one.

Have I ever said "Guardian is scummy for posting a lot?" I think I've specifically said that I'm attacking you for the contents of your posts and not for the sheer quantity. Don't try to use me as an excuse to hide in the background near deadline.

[cicero]

The context was that cicero was wondering why any scum would behave the way you were doing; my point was that I'd expect you to be aggressive independent of your alignment, so that cicero's comment about scum wouldn't necessarily be applicable to you.

I can see Guardian scum being very aggressive. Please don't misrepresent me if you can help it.

Quote tag fixed - Stoofer

[Thok]

The context was that cicero was wondering why any scum would behave the way you were doing; my point was that I'd expect you to be aggressive independent of your alignment, so that cicero's comment about scum wouldn't necessarily be applicable to you.

I can see Guardian scum being very aggressive. Please don't misrepresent me if you can help it.

How is this possibly a misrepresentation? Your comment about seeing Guardian acting that way as scum was made after my comment about Guardian, and was a reaction to the comment I made about Guardian.

[cicero]

The context was that cicero was wondering why any scum would behave the way you were doing; my point was that I'd expect you to be aggressive independent of your alignment, so that cicero's comment about scum wouldn't necessarily be applicable to you.

I can see Guardian scum being very aggressive. Please don't misrepresent me if you can help it.

How is this possibly a misrepresentation? Your comment about seeing Guardian acting that way as scum was made after my comment about Guardian, and was a reaction to the comment I made about Guardian.

You are not reading closely or I'm not understanding how you use the term. Let me break it down into quick and dirty shorthand:

Your point - Guardian is scum because he is pushing a disingenuous case against Iammars.

My point - whether Guardian is scum or whether he is town I think he believes his case against Iammars.

It has nothing to do with how active or how aggressive he is. We can argue about whether Guardian-scum would aggressively push shit cases against townies. Maybe he would. (Guardian himself points out correctly that this falls prey to WIFOM.) But I am NOT saying "Thesp and Guardian post a lot. Therefore they must be town." or "Thesp and Guardian ask a lot of questions and push cases against other players, therefore they must be town."

My point should be clear on re-read.

[Thok]

My point - whether Guardian is scum or whether he is town I think he believes his case against Iammars.

And my point was that because Guardian is always aggressive, as scum he'd be willing to push cases simply to push cases, independent of any other factors, including whether or not he believed the case and that you should not assume Guardian believes his case just because he's pushing it strongly.

Now I can see why you thought my comment was a misrepresentation; you thought I said "Cicero didn't realize Guardian could be aggressive", when it's more like "Cicero didn't realize that Guardian's aggression would lead him to act in ways that differ from what Cicero posits as the typical actions of aggressive scum".

[cicero]

Gotcha.

[Guardian]

And my point was that because Guardian is always aggressive, as scum he'd be willing to push cases simply to push cases, independent of any other factors, including whether or not he believed the case and that you should not assume Guardian believes his case just because he's pushing it strongly.

This is a completely false assumption. When I'm town, I push the cases I believe in the most.

Your line of thinking would have me pushing cases that I don't believe in, as town. I completely believe in my current case on Iammars.

[Guardian]

Thok's right about Guardian's playstyle. Accursed Ork massclaim...

Woah woah, it's enough that Thok is proposing (and heck maybe even believing) this. How is my playstyle significantly different here:

The point about your play style (which I think Gorrad mangled by his comment), was that you aren't the type to sit back and not participate. I don't consider your massive amount of participation by itself a scum tell; I consider the fact that you specifically keep running up people that strike me as townish and that you use bad reasons to do so scummy.

Well, I disagree on both counts; I find them scummy, and I find my reasons to be excellent.

The context was that cicero was wondering why any scum would behave the way you were doing; my point was that I'd expect you to be aggressive independent of your alignment, so that cicero's comment about scum wouldn't necessarily be applicable to you.

that makes sense.

BTW Thok, I'm not overtly attacking you because I think you can out-argue me as you scum me town, just as well as you can out argue me as me town you scum. I find you very suspicious for this attack on me, especially since you are picking out selective points that help you and others you don't, but there isn't much concrete to point to, and generally things result badly if I just say "I find X very suspicious. Why? OMGUS."

Oh come on. When has "I'm afraid things will go badly for me" ever kept you from OMGUSing in the past?

When I was town and didn't want to be mislynched. Something of an example of this, off the top of my head, was in Ork mafia, when I didn't push a case on Gorrad for using poems, because I thought that might be suspicious.

I could see you holding back if you ever found me town, but you've repeated said that you find things I've said scummy, but you apparently don't want to try to call me out or get me lynched.

There's nothing I can put my finger on.

Go find a real scumbag, wtf.

I have found a real scumbag, kthx die.

No, you haven't.

The one thing your attacks are encouraging is me posting less. For all you can say about you not attacking me for being active, and how I need to be active, and whatever whatever, its a choice, a choice you are discouraging. THis same exact thing happaned to me in Big Love Mafia, and I stopped posting and got replaced because of it. Not a signle one of your points against me is not punishing me for being vocal. Not a asignle one.

Have I ever said "Guardian is scummy for posting a lot?" I think I've specifically said that I'm attacking you for the contents of your posts and not for the sheer quantity. Don't try to use me as an excuse to hide in the background near deadline.

Why not? If I'd just sat back like, say, Iammars, and contributed next to nothing, you'd not be suspicious of me at all.

No matter how much you say otherwise, I am being punished for being vocal; if I say enough things, you're going to find something or another you can find scummy, especially if I say what is on my mind, because my thoughts don't always make sense.

Again this makes me think we should get a lurker. I (wooh look, diverting attention to the biggest wagon) am beginning to appreciate the wagon on Kscope. I think Iammars is better, but heck, Kscope has a better shot at being scum than me, and his play right now would be GREAT play as scum in the Thok scumhunting world.

Don't be a nail that sticks our and you won't get hammered down.

[Thok]

Responding to 692

Huh? I'm claiming that you're an aggressive player as either town or scum. There's no reason that aggression has to be expressed the same way as town or scum.

As for your comment that you completely believe your case on Iammars, obviously you'd say that independent of your alignment.

----------------
From 693

(Snipping a bunch of stuff that can be summarized as "Nuh-uh", since my response would basically be repeating myself and going "Yeh-huh!" [well except the Ork thing which can't be verified since not a matter of public record])

No matter how much you say otherwise, I am being punished for being vocal; if I say enough things, you're going to find something or another you can find scummy, especially if I say what is on my mind, because my thoughts don't always make sense.

Again this makes me think we should get a lurker. I (wooh look, diverting attention to the biggest wagon) am beginning to appreciate the wagon on Kscope. I think Iammars is better, but heck, Kscope has a better shot at being scum than me, and his play right now would be GREAT play as scum in the Thok scumhunting world.

Don't be a nail that sticks our and you won't get hammered down.

Why should we go after KScope rather than Rosso Carne or Sir Tornado, both of whom are worse lurkers than KScope?

[Thestatusquo]

Eh? Really?

- Asking for other players to advance the game:
Call me stupid, but I don't see where I did this. You mean the Kscope questions?

- Not advancing the game:

1- I think that asking simple, direct questions is a way to advance the game.
2- I also do think the Iammars wagon deserves more notoriety. Until I decide if I want to vote Kscope or not, this vote is a good cause.

===
So, I'm putting my ass on the line by booing Thesp wagon and cheering Iammars wagon. I don't think my last post is as bad as you put it.

Claus, I wasn't attacking you i was giving my input on why I was voting Kscope.

[Twomz]

[quote="cicero"][quote="The Fonz"][quote="Twomz"]

Vote: KaleiÐoscøpe

for no apparent reason other than I always think he's scum for not saying why he votes and never ever posting any content that I can remember.[/quote]

I'm really not comfortable with wagonning someone for something you admit he 'always' does. I don't think Kscope is one of those players whose very existence is town-threatening, and I don't think two weeks to deadline is a reason to lynch just anybody.[/quote]

OK, Fonz and everyone. I want to take a second to address this. In one of my many games, which shall all remain nameless, I am currently at the end. I am in the interesting position of getting to choose who dies because I'm confirmed town. My choice will end the game. Three other players remain. One of them will be dead in the morning. Two of them really havent said shit the whole game. Nothing. And they made it to endgame. This means that I may have to choose between two blank teflon slates. OR between one very active player and one blank slate. Either way, I would be in a much better position if I had some actual play to review before I make my call. But I don't.

And that is why letting day one lurkers live is bad. There is never going to be a better time to swat them, I don't think. There will always be some super scummy player that takes the focus. Then the lurkers just keep on livin' until you're one of the last townies alive and you're swinging at the pinata with your blindfold on. I know you dont get as much info on day one but you trade it for more info at end-game.

So that's my take. What's your advice? When do we swat these corner dwellers? What is the appropriate time and manner for dealing with them?

Just curious.[/quote]

And guess who that active (and extremely protown if I do say so myself... which I do) player is?

(hint: It's me)

PS: Stop referencing ongoing games Cicero.

[Claus]

Claus, I wasn't attacking you i was giving my input on why I was voting Kscope.

Ah! That is why I thought your post didn't make sense!

Sorry about that.

[Gorrad]

I meant that Thok was right about Guardian wanting to exert some control over the town. As seen in Ork mafia where he pushed that frikkin' massclaim for what, 40 pages?

[Skruffs]

Re: Guardian beign town or scum and Thok's insistence withwhereal.

I do not want to have to deal with a Thok and Guardian end game situation like in Open 19, where Guardian was scum, and somehow made it to the end.

Guardian as scum:

-Pushed one mislynch (IH) the first 60% of the game and then retracted for the remainder, finding his voice only to help lynch anyone he possibly could.

-Tended to be sloppily accusative: some of the things he accused others of, especially near end game, were things he was doing himself.

-There was other things, too. Thok caught him, more than me. I actually defended him because he replaced Battle Mage and at that point I thought that when Battle Mage made sense, it meant he was town. (I've sense learned differently)