Open 60: The New C9 - Game over!

[kabenon007]

Why do you want to know?

[-TinVision-]

Third Vote Count of Day Two:

Oman - 1 (Phate)
Shteven - 1 (kabenon007)
LaptopGun - 1 (farside22)
Phate - 1 (Oman)
farside22 - 1 (Shteven)
kabenon007 - 1 (vollkan)

Not voting - 9 (Jesse Gunn, Justin Playfair, LaptopGun, MadCrawdad, OpposedForce, somestrangeflea, Spacecase, The Fonz, Wesaq)

With fifteen alive, it will take eight votes to lynch.

[farside22]

Why do you want to know?

Because we are on day 2 and no one is really saying anything about scum. I've tried to reread stuff, but there is little to go on from day one. That was the only thing that came out so I thought I would ask.

[Rigel]

Okay, I've finished my read-through, and here are a few things that I picked out.

First off, I'm going to say that I believe that there is an almost 100% chance that Jesse is a (the) cop. The possibility that he and his scumbuddies set up a Day 1 lynch of their own just to make him look like a townie is too farfetched to be possible. Thus, he's got to be the cop.

Secondly, LG brought up a good point a page ago; that SSF voted for Six Aces after there were already 10 votes on him and he was going to be lynched. I know that the general theory on this is that he was "late to the party" but he was 8 hours late to the party, not just one or two. A miscount is possible, but since SSF never even explained the situation, I'll like to hear his side of the story. So, SSF, if you could address this, I'd greatly appreciate it.

After Peers and ryan were NKed during Night 1, LaptopGun said that Phate was referencing an SK when he clearly was not. Here are the two posts to compare:

I know congratulating the doctor is a scumtell, but I'm not sure about congratulating the killer... at any rate, I tip my hat to whoever offed Ryan for making an excellent choice.

Jesse, why are you alive? Am I confusing this with another game or did you not just claim cop?

Phate how do you know Ryan was killed by the SK?

Anyhow I think the mafia have decided a confirmed, or so I believe, townie of jessie's ability is less of a danger than one of the two who was offed last night. I'm gonna have to reveal some posts, and I suggest others do the same, to see if either said anything potentially dangerous to the mafia or SK. It is potentially damaging that Jessie is still alive without a doc protect, but I find it totally reasonable that the mafia attempted to confuse the town. We now have the possibility that Jessie is scum instead of having a confirmed townie. He did reveal a Mafia though, so unless he turned on his scum buddy (which I just don't see- Day 1 under no real pressure) I have a hard time believing it. Or he's the SK and got extremely lucky he hit scum on Day 1 in a blind guess. Or Jessie is such a criminal genius he is going to out the other mafia as if he were the cop and hope to survive alone until the end of the game. Not that those last two are ridiculous or anything

I don't like outing the cop esp. on Day 2 with 3 mafia left and no guarantee of a doc, but Jessie you do need to tell us who you investigated. I want this mafia ploy over and done with so we can focus on other suspects.

Oh and if it's not obvious: If we have 1 or more doctors please do not out yourself or selves. The town doesn't need another power role in jeopardy.

This doesn't really cast LG in a good light. In the first line, he puts suspicion on Phate for something that isn't even in Phate's post, and in the paragraph below, he discusses what the Mafia might have thought overnight, and then tries to direct the town into investigating Jesse again. It's not particularly damning evidence, but it's at least a little bit scummy, to say the least.

At the beginning of Page 7, Shteven makes a rather strange comment.

Also, I'd like to amend my previous maybe answer. It's still maybe, but

if we do have a vig, it's possible that both he and the SK picked up jesse as a possible scum

. So it's a slightly more likely maybe. Would be pretty interesting to see that all 3 night powers were on him over his vote on jesse.

It is stated at the beginning of the thread that there is no vigilante. The only killing roles that are in this game are the Mafia, and the Serial Killer. Which makes this comment about the Vig uninformed at best, and deliberately confusing at worst. I would assume that the roles would be known by all players, although I could be wrong, so this is more scummy than accidental in my eyes.

Later on, Kabenon chooses to criticize Shteven for asking why Jesse was still alive. What he fails to do is criticize either Phate or Farside, both of whom had previously addressed the same point. I'm not really sure what to make of this, but since there has been other evidence brought up of Kabenon's scumminess, such as his odd voting style at the game's beginning, and the fact that he's been taking an odd stance on Shteven the whole game, I'm going to chalk this up as another scummy move. This might clear Shteven of his Vig comment, but then again, it might not; the two of them could be bussing each other.

However, one incident that I find more probable to be bussing is one from the very beginning of the game, between Kabenon and Wesaq. Remember him? First off, Wesaq hasn't posted since January 15. So I'm going to ask if we can get a

Prod: Wesaq

, just to see if he'll show up to defend himself.

At the very beginning of the game, Wesaq random votes Kabenon, giving a reason for his vote that isn't particularly random. Kabenon jumps on this, OMGUSing him for his "random vote with a reason". Wesaq eventually responds to this OMGUS vote, saying that:

I phrased it not as clearly as i thought. I selected you as a random target. And after that i found a reason to choose you.

His reason is Kabenon's usage of Unrightousout Quitdirty to refer to Justin Playfair when voting, and this train of thought derails the town for a while, keeping them from doing any actual scumhunting. Next, Wesaq says that:

But i still see no other choice, so the Vote is still with you.

People ignore this at first, but then Kabenon redirects townthought back towards Wesaq, saying the current idea being discussed (interrogating veteran players) is pointless and they should focus on Wesaq. It appears as though the Wesaq-Kabenon Conflict is being used as a tool to divert the town from any conversations that might be helpful. His plan works; many of the town's more analytical thinkers begin to discuss and interrogate Wesaq, ignoring anyone else for the time being. The only reason that the Wesaq conversation is broken off is because Jesse goofs and FOSes Johnny Playfair, eventually cracking under pressure and revealing his role.

Now, I'm not saying for sure that this is bussing. It could very well be that Kabenon is scum and he picked a seemingly weak townie to throw darts at and distract the town. However, Wesaq hasn't posted since the debate, and so I'm going to

Vote: Wesaq

. He needs to post, and this is the best way I can think of to make him do so.

[somestrangeflea]

Secondly, LG brought up a good point a page ago; that SSF voted for Six Aces after there were already 10 votes on him and he was going to be lynched. I know that the general theory on this is that he was "late to the party" but he was 8 hours late to the party, not just one or two. A miscount is possible, but since SSF never even explained the situation, I'll like to hear his side of the story. So, SSF, if you could address this, I'd greatly appreciate it.

I miscounted.

It is stated at the beginning of the thread that there is no vigilante.

There should be...

[Justin Playfair]

I was a bit curious about Vollkan’s vote on Kabenon. Having reread the thread to check on Vollkan I find myself now a bit more curious about Kabenon.

Kabenon,

The fact that you have made the following two posts so early in our proceedings is of interest to me:

A word of warning Phate, vollkan always gives off town vibes...

And then later, giving an example:

I agree that a particular scumtell, or even town tell, cannot be placed on everyone. Take vollkan for instance. His large posts, contentful, appear pro-town. But he also does them when he is scum. I want to wait for a recent vote count before I vote, mostly because I don't have time to check myself. (I'm lazy and busy, sue me!)

All right, so you have warned us twice that Vollkan may be scum however town he may seem. Do you have any reasons for suspecting Vollkan beyond his usually seeming town that would warrant two warnings about him in the first nine pages?

So I guess I have two questions about this.

Who are you waiting on a vote count to vote on? You’ve already voted Shteven, making a rather persistent case against him. Is it Vollkan, which might be suggested by the linkage in the above post, or someone else?

Does your above statement about waiting to vote mean that you no longer believe the vote you already have on Shteven is appropriate?

This post bothers me some:

Just expressing my opinion, Shteven. That way, when people ask what it was, I can go back and point to a specific spot and say, Look there it is! Instead of saying "Well, judging from how I worded this post, I felt XXX." Much more concrete, more helpful to the town.

First, because the post you made which you are referring to here is this:

I think we should keep the idea that Jesse might be scum in the back of our minds, just as a last thought kind of thing. We can scum hunt without worrying about it too much. If we can't figure it out, we can always go back and examine him thoroughly later.

If you could please explain both how saying that Jesse might be scum or he might not but we can find out later is “concrete”, and how it is “helpful to town”. I understand how it might later be useful to you.

Finally there is this, in response to Farside22 asking you about your suspicions of Wesaq:

Why do you want to know?

While it is perfectly appropriate to ask the question you are asking in return, it would also have been appropriate to answer Farside22’s question. In this case it actually would provide something “Much more concrete, more helpful to the town”.

Why did you choose not to answer Farside22’s question?

Anyway, thank you for any answers provided. For now:

Vote: Kabenon007

[Justin Playfair]

Pardon,

Vote: Kabenon007

[kabenon007]

All right, so you have warned us twice that Vollkan may be scum however town he may seem. Do you have any reasons for suspecting Vollkan beyond his usually seeming town that would warrant two warnings about him in the first nine pages?

Well, my first game was with vollkan here on MS. I was town, he was scum. He did exactly what he is doing now: long posts, responding to everything thrown at him with long posts. He was scum in that game and I knew it, but no one else believed me. And I can't help feeling that this is exactly how he acted that first game... and I know I said it was how he plays everytime... but something just seems different. But yes, it was vollkan I was considering putting my vote on. I believe my vote could do better on someone other than Shteven.

If you could please explain both how saying that Jesse might be scum or he might not but we can find out later is “concrete”, and how it is “helpful to town”. I understand how it might later be useful to you.

Well, I was saying that we don't necessarily need to concentrate on him at the moment. We keep him as a possibility in the back of our minds, only as a possibility, because I don't really think he is scum, but there is a slight chance, and then if we are really stuck, we can go back and investigate him more thoroughly.

While it is perfectly appropriate to ask the question you are asking in return, it would also have been appropriate to answer Farside22’s question. In this case it actually would provide something “Much more concrete, more helpful to the town”.

Well, I don't like it when people just ask me questions without providing reasons. It can provide false links between persons that the scum might manipulate to get a townie lynched. So I don't like it when I am just asked a question without a reason or case on it.

And now that she has posted, I will respond. I haven't pushed it because I haven't seen him around here very much, and I hate it when I keep asking and asking someone who isn't there to provide an answer. So I just dropped it. Saved it for a later date.

[farside22]

@kabenon007:

You shouldn't drop something is you think someone is scummie. You should push for it and see if the person responds like I did with LapTop. Although I'm not a fan of using past games to say this is how I am and has no scum links showing if he is the same that way too.
Anyways either people listen or they don't, but you shouldn't just drop a case with a non response. You should be more aggressive. I wondered if you dropped it because you may have been trying to buss you partner. It seemed an odd play.

FOS LapTop

(you don't have to be wishy washy if get's you no where)

Unvote: Vote: Kabenon007

I think you have a poor excuse for what you did. I think you can be more agressive so your slack off just rings false to me.

[The Fonz]

I was in one or two with Fonz and SSF, so they can talk about that.

The only other game I've been in with you was Newbie 349 where I mislynched LTGDoc... Incidentally, one of my posts was "This just screams Wishy-Washy."! So yeah, I'm going to support the meta on WishyWashyLTG...

I don't really remember you, I'm afraid. I play a lot of games. I see no reason for you to come out with something so eminently disprovable if not true, mind. Then again:

Myself, Phate, Shteven, and Oman all appear to have one vote each but I could have missed some, I did a very quick scan.

If posting from a Wii is anything like posting from an iPod Touch, I feel for you buddy.

While we're waiting for an official vote count, I'd like to figure out a few things from the vote of ysterday. I have something I'd like to address about the voting yesterday that I just figured out. Intially I thought, unless my count was inncorrect, that players piled on after Six Aces already had enough votes to be lynched. This was Shteven and SSF. Would anyone find it below the mafia to pile on after a scum buddy's fate has already been sealed in order to blend in with the town? I thought so. However, I was wrong. I thought Peers had hammered Six Aces and I made a comment about his advatar being appropriate. I was mistaken, as everyone knows that Peers voted for Jess. Oops. SO Shteven cast the deciding vote, hence my count is wrong int that regard. That does leave SSF casting a meaningless 11th vote, but it's within a reasonable time of Shteven's post. More importantly, he could have miscounted like I did. So that leaves me in the same place I was talking baout scumtells and metadefenses.

This is a ridiculously longwinded way of saying nothing at all.

Yes, there is no universal scumtell, as something which is a scumtell for one person may not be for someone else.

ZOMG! Oman is wagonning!

I'm not sure I see the case on Kab. Can someone enlighten me?

[somestrangeflea]

I was in one or two with Fonz and SSF, so they can talk about that.

The only other game I've been in with you was Newbie 349 where I mislynched LTGDoc... Incidentally, one of my posts was "This just screams Wishy-Washy."! So yeah, I'm going to support the meta on WishyWashyLTG...

I don't really remember you, I'm afraid. I play a lot of games. I see no reason for you to come out with something so eminently disprovable if not true, mind.

I was referring to LTG only in that post, sorry if that wasn't clear. The only game all three of us have been in together was the older New C9.

[The Fonz]

I thought i was quoting LTG directly there.

[-TinVision-]

It is stated at the beginning of the thread that there is no vigilante. The only killing roles that are in this game are the Mafia, and the Serial Killer.

We interrupt this program for a breaking news bulletin: In the confusion of moving the role PMs from the first to the second post, it appears a role PM was eaten by the Internet.

In this, as in all "New C9" games, there is either 0 or 1 Vigilante. My apologies for any confusion. We now return you to your regularly scheduled program.

[kabenon007]

Now you're just being opportunistic farside. I am the one who decides whether I want to press an attack or not. He is not here, my energy would be wasted, and is therefore more useful doing other things.

[Rigel]

It is stated at the beginning of the thread that there is no vigilante. The only killing roles that are in this game are the Mafia, and the Serial Killer.

We interrupt this program for a breaking news bulletin: In the confusion of moving the role PMs from the first to the second post, it appears a role PM was eaten by the Internet.

In this, as in all "New C9" games, there is either 0 or 1 Vigilante. My apologies for any confusion. We now return you to your regularly scheduled program.

Oops. Sorry about that. I'm not specifically familiar with the New C9 format, I was just working off of the rules listed at the beginning of the game.

As for your latest post, Kabenon, this doesn't fly. There is no reason that Wesaq should have gone this long without a replacement or prodding. You choosing not to put any pressure or attention upon him may be directly related to why this has thus far not occurred. Whether or not this is because you are scum is something I haven't fully determined yet, but I'm leaning towards scum at this point.

FOS: Kabenon007

[Shteven]

Zero or one player received this PM:

You are a Vigilante. Each night, you may PM me the name of a player. You will kill that player. You win when all threats to the town are eliminated.

It is stated at the beginning of the thread that there is no vigilante. The only killing roles that are in this game are the Mafia, and the Serial Killer. Which makes this comment about the Vig uninformed at best, and deliberately confusing at worst. I would assume that the roles would be known by all players, although I could be wrong, so this is more scummy than accidental in my eyes.

So by this logic, you'd now be more scummy than accidental? There's zero or one vig, not zero. Also, all of this was a response to SSF's post, directly above mine, who first speculated on the wording of the kill meaning he was targeted twice. Why did you not pick up on SSF's post, but focused on mine?

P.S. Just saw tinvision's post at the bottom (I generally write up responses in line while reading the thread so I don't forget things by the end). So you probably have a valid defense here; but the roles were listed at the start, and I remembered without looking back. I wouldn't fault you much for forgetting that. But also overlooking SSF mentioning it first is a more significant issue, so I'm still going to post this response.

[kabenon007]

That is idiotic Rigel. The only reason Wesaq isn't here is because he chooses not to be or because he cannot. My not putting pressure on him does not make him more inclined to lurk. You are grasping at straws and I believe you were expecting more people to start ganging up on me, so you seized the first opportunity you could find to get on board and be suspcious of me.

unvote, vote:Rigel

[vollkan]

It is stated at the beginning of the thread that there is no vigilante. The only killing roles that are in this game are the Mafia, and the Serial Killer. Which makes this comment about the Vig uninformed at best, and deliberately confusing at worst. I would assume that the roles would be known by all players, although I could be wrong, so this is more scummy than accidental in my eyes.

I don't think it is inconceivable that Shteven might have forgotten about that. Off the top of my head, I can't recall what roles may or may not be in this game. That said, the proper thing to do would be to check to verify what he was saying.

The fact that you have made the following two posts so early in our proceedings is of interest to me:

A word of warning Phate, vollkan always gives off town vibes...

And then later, giving an example:

I agree that a particular scumtell, or even town tell, cannot be placed on everyone. Take vollkan for instance. His large posts, contentful, appear pro-town. But he also does them when he is scum. I want to wait for a recent vote count before I vote, mostly because I don't have time to check myself. (I'm lazy and busy, sue me!)

All right, so you have warned us twice that Vollkan may be scum however town he may seem. Do you have any reasons for suspecting Vollkan beyond his usually seeming town that would warrant two warnings about him in the first nine pages?

Well, my first game was with vollkan here on MS. I was town, he was scum. He did exactly what he is doing now: long posts, responding to everything thrown at him with long posts. He was scum in that game and I knew it, but no one else believed me. And

I can't help feeling

that this is exactly how he acted that first game... and I know I said it was how he plays everytime... but something just seems different. But yes, it was vollkan I was considering putting my vote on. I believe my vote could do better on someone other than Shteven.

Anyone that has played with me before knows how much I

detest

play by "feeling". It's an unchallengable assertion. Kab, my play here is precisely the same as my play in all my other games. True, I appear protown regardless of alignment (which, as Justin notes, you have stressed on two previous occasions) but that is at most a recent to hold me to higher scrutiny - it doesn't, on its own, form a basis for suspicion. If you feel something is amiss in my play here, then go back and find out if there is any substantive basis to this 'feeling'.

[Rigel]

That is idiotic Rigel. The only reason Wesaq isn't here is because he chooses not to be or because he cannot. My not putting pressure on him does not make him more inclined to lurk. You are grasping at straws and I believe you were expecting more people to start ganging up on me, so you seized the first opportunity you could find to get on board and be suspcious of me.

unvote, vote:Rigel

If I was going to "seize the first opportunity I could find to get on board", I would have simply posted my suspicions of Wesaq and voted for you right off the bat. Doing so now is quite tempting. However, I feel that Wesaq has been ignored for long enough, and so I feel he needs to be drawn out. I'm not for sure saying that you and Wesaq are scumpartners. But if I was scum, and I was under suspicion on Day 1 but got ignored on Day 2, I'd make sure I stayed ignored. That doesn't automatically make you scum, but it does make you partially responsible for Wesaq's ability to lurk. Those aren't the same thing.

@Shteven: I honestly don't know why I didn't pick out SSF's post. I noted it, but for some reason, it didn't seem as glaring as yours. The only thing I can think of is that you specifically mentioned the Vig, which caught my eye, whereas SSF's didn't. However, since this whole thing was a simple misunderstanding on my part b/c of my inexperience with the game roles. When I read the opening pages, there was no mention of the Vigilante; if there was a mentioning of it in the sign-up thread, I obviously didn't see that.

[kabenon007]

Come now vollkan, you have to admit that some words, some turns of phrase, cause you to feel a certain way about them. Your words merely caused a scummy sensation in the pit of my stomach. I was right last time.

[vollkan]

Sure, kab, I agree that some "words" and "turns of phrases" can be concerning. If you have found any said by me, then by all means bring them to the table of discussion and see whether there is any serious grounds for suspicion.

All you have presented so far is a declaration that you feel I am scummy. The fact that you are now 'appearing' more specific by referring to ambiguous words and phrases makes your suspicion of me no less baseless.

I was right last time.

Yeah, but back in Newbie 358 you actually had a case against me. It wasn't just "feeling".

[Shteven]

Seems Kabenon007 now has 3 votes + 1 fos. So far, I'm just not really seeing the case, honestly. It's mostly just tone, I don't have anything solid, I am mostly just posting this for notes so I don't forget.

IGMEOY: Justin.

There is definitely something odd about his claims on vollkan and then vollkan voting for him, but I don't consider that vote worthy alone.

[kabenon007]

My case was that I felt you hadn't attacked me as hard as you could have! That is a thought of mine, a feeling, that I attacked upon.

[vollkan]

I'm just not really seeing the case, honestly.

I'll try and give a recount of the case.

Kab's first post D2 is this:

vote:Shteven

Take a look at his first line. Okay, it's the second line, but I don't count agreed as a line.

Agreed. I'd say it's most likely that he was doctor protected, and that mafia chose other targets instead of taking the chance on there being a doctor protection.

He says it's likely Jesse was doctor protected, he didn't say that the scum thought that Jesse was doctor protected. This means he was thinking about Jesse being protected. This makes me think he is scum who made what I believe is called a Freudian slip.

Then, Shteven in #150 responds:

I have a hard time seeing how this makes a case at all. I realize what you're trying to get at, but I'm capable of thinking that Jesse got doctor protection as a pro-town. It's not only scum who may have thought that. If only scum could ever think about doctor protections, everyone should be lynching Jesse now because there would be no reason for him to be alive.

Then:

My point, Shteven, is that you had no reason to be thinking about it. It's possible for a townie to think it, but why would you? It doesn't do us any good to think about, therefore why bother? However, for scum, thinking about whether the cop will be protected is high on the priority list.

Farside then makes the point that she and Phate had already made comments similar to those of Shteven and they hadn't been attacked by Kab at all. Then I also pointed out that Shteven was responding to a post by Fonz that implied a similar line of thought and, moreover, that this sort of thing is something that the town, in fact,

needs

to think about.

Then we have #156 by Kab:

I think it is good to figure it out as well. I was more concerned with the word choicing and placement. It struck me as scummy, and it is kinda hard to explain. It's a feeling more than anything, and I tried to explain it, apparently not very well.

Now it has shifting to "word choice" - but he also stresses that it is grounded in 'feeling' (there's my favourite word again ). It's basically just becoming very vague.

Then we get #169:

Okay... I think I found a better way to explain it. For instance, would a townie have to deliberate about whether or not the cop is going to be protected? No, we have no reason to, whether we think about it or not has no bearing on whether the cop survives the night.

For a scum, he has to sit and think and mull over the fact that there is probably a doctor, so should he take the chance and try to kill the doc, or should he just kill someone else.

But it was the wording that tipped me off to this fact. He doesn't say the mafia thought that he would be doctor protected, he just said, it's probable that he would have been, or something along those lines. So I took that to mean that he was deliberating about whether or not the cop was going to be protected enough, deliberating enough to post that fact.

I tore this down myself in #171 in some detail. Probably the most important point against Kab that comes from this post is that the last paragraph has Kab characterising what Shteven said as being of the type which most people would say was much less scummy (Kab, without explanation, seems to take a contrary view).

And, of course, now we have his baseless insinuations against me.

The case on Kab is not "mostly just tone" by any means. He attacked you individually for what was not only a bad reason, but was also something that other people had done also. Then he shifts and tries to justify his position on the basis of your word choices, but ends up characterising your actions as being not scummy (though, he doesn't seem aware of this).

[Spacecase]

Come now vollkan, you have to admit that some words, some turns of phrase, cause you to feel a certain way about them. Your words merely caused a scummy sensation in the pit of my stomach. I was right last time.

Could you please clarify what you mean by the last time you were right? Also you have quite a weak argument using "feelings" as your evidence in my view.

FoS Kalenon007