Mini 536: Heroes Smalltown. Game Over!

[Adele]

Who my target was, who I didn't get results on because of poo-head CKD of course.

[Adele]

I'd like to apologise for and withdraw the above "of course".

I don't know what's up with me today.

[cicero]

No worries.

Is CKD a poo head or is CKD a scummo? Why is Yvonne scummier than CKD? Could they both be scum together?

[curiouskarmadog]

I like how one hand, people say I am scummy for targetting Adele.

but on the other hand saying that Yvonne looks scummy....arent they both watchers?

again, answer the question...if a kill had not gone through last night, would I still be "scummy"? If I had targetted Yvonne last night..would I still be scummy? If so, why, because arent both Adele and Yvonne watchers?

I dont like how people are suggesting I dont use my ability. I am sure scum would just love that. No one thought I was scummy yesterday (except thinking I was the SK) when I targetted Gorgon. (WIFOM moment here), how does targetting Gorgon help mafia? At any rate, I target who I think could be scum. I obviously didnt send the kill last night. Of course, if I didnt use my ability, I am sure the mafia spin doctors would be saying I am obviously the one who submitted the kill.

you understand it is a lose lose here.

Cicero, please explain to me why you keep suggesting I am scum..if you have a case, present it..if you dont, quit eluding to it. Because right now, looks like you are trying to drum up support to see if it is worth pushing...I am calling you out..you have a case or not?

[cicero]

I already made the case, CKD. Now I want other people on the record on what their opinion of the case is. I actually don't understand how you could suggest I'm "eluding". I've been pretty up front. I'm not drumming support. I want people on the record. Adele's response was very wishy washy. Yvonne is scummy for wanting to go last but you were just, what was it? "disappointing".

I have no more to add on you besides what I already said. Now I want other people to weigh in on you. They should weigh in on the responses to you as well. Shaft.ed wants to give you a day because you caught us the serial killer. Adele finds your move disappointing. I want to know what everyone else thinks.

You can say all you want you targetted who would be scum, but what you did was target scum who would have been forced to lie as much as twice last night. We have other ways to ferret the watchers. Last night's action by you undeniably helped the scum out.

I think you are too smart not to know that. (Quite frankly I'm a member of the CKD fanclub. You're a great player) And I think you are too smart to do it and not have a good reason handy.

[Adele]

Of course, if I didnt use my ability, I am sure the mafia spin doctors would be saying I am obviously the one who submitted the kill.

you understand it is a lose lose here.

False dilemma much? Your ability has 3 sides. You stop people using their abilities, or killing if scum. You stop people being targeted. You stop people getting killed.

so, if you'd targeted Ando, the only possible effects would've been protecting him against nasty murderers or protecting others from him if scum. woot and suchlike.

If there had been no kill last night, it's possible that we'd've gotten info from nightchoices that meant that once again your target was 50-50 the killer. But it did, so the town knows for certain that I didn't perform a kill last night. Great and all, but if a watcher watches the NK victim then that's one scum down.

It's possible for any player to be scum. There are a good few reasons to suspect that Yvonne is scum. That should, of course, be

a factor

in your choices. However, I am not

just

a watcher, I am also a role absorber. If you'd not targeted me last night, I would be able to motivate Yvonne (if people trusted her much more than me) or linderman, or (???) shafted, who might then be able to motivate Yvonne and Linderman (I'm not sure about this, but anyway). Working together, shafted and I could've boosted Linderman to 3 protects a night. I've got a power build-up. And that should be a factor too. And, yes, the lost results should be too. Town-me had a one in eight chance of catching scum.

You're not being persecuted, you're not damned if you do damned if you don't, and this isn't illogical. The reasons you've given behind your decision don't appear to sufficiently support it in light of the downsides.

It's possible I rambled here.

[curiouskarmadog]

if there had not been a kill last night...you would not be saying the samething. I told you I did what I thought was best for the town. Furthermore, if I feel someone is scum (even if it is a watcher) I will do it again. For the beginning of this game, I didnt like people telling me to do things based on my role. I dont like being directed...which is what people are doing by suggesting I am scummy for who I target or will target. I will use (or not use) my ability as I see fit. Maybe some of you are not interested in actually scum hunting, but I am. If you have a probelm with this lynch me. But I want to hear a clear case, and I want people to take repsonsiblity for my lynch the following day. I too would like to hear people's thoughts on Cicero's case.

please repost your case cicero, and where is your vote? if you really think I am scum, maybe you need a vote to back it up. I also wonder if you think I should be the lynch of today, especially provided that it is a confirmed fact I didnt submit any kills for the past two nights. I personally think, you are trying to see if people agree with you before you vote.

Adele, it remains to be seen if I am being persecuted for my actions. Also, adele, you did not answer cicero's questions about Yvonne.

[cicero]

Why do you keep wanting me to repost my case? There's no lack of clarity. That's just weird. I'll also vote when I want to vote. For someone who doesn't like being directed, you seem pretty comfortable directing.

And yes - if there had not been a kill last night I would not be saying the same thing. But there

was

a kill last night. A kill that escaped scrutiny because somebody unnecessarily locked up a watcher.

[Adele]

if there had not been a kill last night...you would not be saying the samething.

Yes, opinions change depending on events.

I told you I did what I thought was best for the town.

What else would you say? But if your supporting reasons seem inadequate to the choice you made, then you look insincere

For the beginning of this game, I didnt like people telling me to do things based on my role. I dont like being directed...which is what people are doing by suggesting I am scummy for who I target or will target. I will use (or not use) my ability as I see fit.

Those are not the same; if a vig targeted a doc or mason then he'd be under suspicion for it; that's not direction, it's voting people when they behave in a way that appears to best benefit scum. People here are suggesting your targeting of me was a lesser corollary of that.

Maybe some of you are not interested in actually scum hunting, but I am. If you have a probelm with this lynch me.

pity play; no argumentation, not relevant except as a small scumtell.

But I want to hear a clear case, and I want people to take repsonsiblity for my lynch the following day.

The same way you're taking responsibility for crippling my pro-town abilities?

Adele, it remains to be seen if I am being persecuted for my actions.

I didn't say you weren't being persecuted for your actions. I said you weren't being persecuted. If you behave scummily, sure, expect the consequences of that. And you could call that persecution which I guess it literally speaking is. But you're not the underdog being mistreated just for existing here. You're being called to account for your town-damaging behaviour and you need to answer for that, not sling out wild accusations and present craplogic for why you couldn't help but be put in this position.

---------------------------------

Also, adele, you did not answer cicero's questions about Yvonne.

I didn't read them as being specifically to me, but general topics for the town to think about. In case you're right:

1. Is CKD a poo head or is CKD a scummo?

-No reason he's not both. His explanation for his behaviour incline me towards thinking he is the latter

2. Why is Yvonne scummier than CKD?

-Besides the reasons DGB raised:

She' linked to:
mathcam: early defense scumtell.
Gorgon: protects a lot in indirect ways scumtell.
Adele: thinks Adele is scum for no real reason, distancing scumtell.
shafted: strange night choice scumtell.

The manner in which she links herself to a short player list with either defense or baseless distancing screams scum to me

Though bearing in mind that DGB's obsessed with the idea that I'm scum and I'd characterise Yvonne's attacks on me as speculative wagon-building.

Going by instinct however, I've a generally bad feeling about Adele. Can't really explain it, it's been like this since early D1.

I have the same sometimes. However, while I can't explain it, I'm usually able to patch together a few quotes from that player that illustrate it. So, even if you can't justify exactly why my posts make you uncomfortable, could you give some examples that do?

That's quite a lot of help to give someone, but she doesn't ever get around to even providing this.

Nobody, except Adele, but she must go before me today since something's happened which involves her.

Also, all the players have to tell the truth if they go before me because they don't know my result. If I go first, the scum can escape easily and there is essentially no use to my role.

Looking hard to being the suspector/ checker-upper rather than suspected/ checked-up

3.Could they both be scum together?

-Sure, why not?

[shaft.ed]

A kill that escaped scrutiny because somebody unnecessarily locked up a watcher.

Do you honestly think that one of the watchers would have targeted Mathcam? I doubt Adele's being locked up had any effect outside of possibly confirming people's targets and me passing on my role to her, which is not incredibly high priority.

A few thoughts of mine. Sorry for the poor organization but I feel like some verbal diaharea at the moment. I think some of this will be conflicting so feedback would be cool.

A reason I don't think CKD is scum. If he were, the scum would know that Adele was locked up. They could have attempted a kill on Yvonne with only the risk of Doc protection and no risk of being caught. This seems like a good gambit to me. Only breaks down if Yvonne and CKD are scum, but then Fonz would be dead in that case not Mathcam. Therefore Yvonne and CKD are definitely not scumbuddies.

Cicero's comment earlier that Mathcam was responsible for Gorgon's lynch and thus he made a decent night kill is incorrect. CKD was directly responsible for ferriting out Gorgon. CKD can also do the same to mafia. I'm actually a bit surprised that Matchcam was targeted over CKD (add him to the long list of players that "shouldn't" be alive I guess). Cam hadn't really been doing anything in the game and his role isn't that scary to scum. However, it is much safer for scum to NK him as his lynch would very likely result in a vig'ing. He may have been on to someone. But I'm surprised the scum decided to pick off a peripheral role, because the core watching/protection roles get harder to hit as you remove unlikely NK candidates. They may be afraid of running into Watching/Doc protection but I think it more likely at least one scum is from the Watcher/Doc group. Do we take a chance at making it easier for scum and lynching one of them?

If CKD were scum, locking up a scumbuddy gives them both a good alibi and a bit of bus'ing. Not using this to cast suspicion on CKD, just want this thought out there on the off chance his alignment is revealed as scum.

Can DGB be watched? I know she can't be targeted but if performing a NK she can be watched right? If not, she'd be the perfect person so submit the kill. However, if she can DGB-scum would have been more worried about Yvonne than ZONEACE N1. Thus less likely DGB is in the scum group.

Shaft.ed wants to give you a day because you caught us the serial killer.

This is a distortion of my view. I'm not giving him a day. I'm giving him more leeway. I'm a bit upset with his choice but I do not find it scummy. Especially given the fact that Mathcam died. As I said above if the scum knew one watcher was out of commision they could easily have taken out someone more useful than Mathcam last night.

[shaft.ed]

For the record my post above is not in response to Adele's they were cross posted.

[curiouskarmadog]

Why do you keep wanting me to repost my case? There's no lack of clarity. That's just weird. I'll also vote when I want to vote. For someone who doesn't like being directed, you seem pretty comfortable directing.

And yes - if there had not been a kill last night I would not be saying the same thing. But there

was

a kill last night. A kill that escaped scrutiny because somebody unnecessarily locked up a watcher.

please provide the post number that you supplied a "case" against me. Because your whole case is I jailed Adele last night and you dont except my reason why..thats it. So I am scummy because I chose Adele and there was a night kill, but I wouldnt be scummy if I chose Adele and there wasnt a night kill. So the whole reason I am scummy is because there was a night kill, for you wouldnt be attacking me right now if there wasnt. So you are blaming me because a watcher did not watch mathcam, how do you know adele would have targetted cam? How do you know that Adele is even town?

the only reason you do not have my vote at this point is a.) shafted confirmed your action yesterday, b.) you made note that I targetted Adele before I claimed I did (which means you made an action last night) and c.) I am only interested in lynching someone today who actually could have made the kill. Now the fact that you have not made a kill does not mean you are not scum, but I would like to go after someone who could have made the kill.

that being said, there are 3 scum in this game. unless my math is incorrect we are at 5:3...a mislynch today and a NK tonight means we a 3:3 tomorrow...and if I am correct, that means we lose.

Now you can keep barking up my tree cicero, if you want, but it is very anti-town to do so, especially since I am confirmed to have sent an action both nights and could not have submitted a kill...now, this means very little in regards to my alignment, but shouldnt you be trying to figure out at least WHO could have submitted a kill instead of trying to drum up support for me being scummy? I think Yvonne is one of our scum...I think she is the play today.

..if I am scum then please, I also want your thoery of who my scum buddies are.

[cicero]

That's it, CKD. There isn't anything else. I'm accusing you of a sub-optimal choice in a game wherein, you are correct, there aren't many nights available. See how up to speed you are!

I'd love to give you a massive case with lots of other parts but there isn't one. Your play other than that has been fine and I'd expect no less. The fact is that your move was more optimal for scum than town.

As for barking up your tree, the way for me to figure out if you have scumbuddies or not, or if you are scum is to press you and get other people's reactions. You know better than to ask me to outline who your scumbuddies are. Your buddies could be anyone. This mafia thing ain't an exact science.

Shaft.ed made some good points. Adele's made some too. We need to fill TSQ's chair. I'd like to hear more from DGB and Fonz on this subject.

[curiouskarmadog]

We need to fill TSQ's chair. I'd like to hear more from DGB and Fonz on this subject.

there is one thing you and I are both in agreement on.

[cicero]

We need to fill TSQ's chair. I'd like to hear more from DGB and Fonz on this subject.

there is one thing you and I are both in agreement on.

CKD you need to understand that *I* am not convinced you are scum yet (and I'm not convinced you're not either). But this is a very appropriate line of inquiry and I want everyone weighed in.

[shaft.ed]

that being said, there are 3 scum in this game. unless my math is incorrect we are at 5:3...a mislynch today and a NK tonight means we a 3:3 tomorrow...and if I am correct, that means we lose.

I think we have found out why the scum targeted Mathcam last night. They have enough kills from the unlikely to be watched/protected pool to take the game home. This furthers supports the idea that one of the Doc/watcher group is scum. Also trying to lynch Mathcam could mess up their LyLo status, but it also could have won the game for them so I don't think this is a large factor.

[The Fonz]

again, answer the question...if a kill had not gone through last night, would I still be "scummy"? If I had targetted Yvonne last night..would I still be scummy? If so, why, because arent both Adele and Yvonne watchers?

But the problem with this is, the fact that a kill did go through changes the situation completely. If there was a strong chance you were responsible for blocking the mafia kill one way or another, that's a considerable piece of evidence in your favour.

Also, a lack of kill last night would not be conclusive in the way that the lack of a scum kill was- since I couldn't protect from the SK kill, we knew that it was definitely your power (or Gorgon's) that caused the lack of kill. Therefore, the killer had to be Gorgon or targetted Gorgon. That, combined with the fact that Gorgon's own ability made him an unlikely NK target made it overwhelmingly likely that he was the SK. Whereas a mafia kill could also be docblocked, nor would I be willing to assume, even if Adele were jailed, that she were killer and not target.

I dont like how people are suggesting I dont use my ability.

The problem here is that no-one suggested that. It was suggested that locking up watcher, motivator or doc would be scummy- locking up DGB, TSQ, or Cicero would have been strictly preferable to doing nothing.

How does targetting Gorgon help mafia? It doesn't, but it doesn't hurt, and anything anyone does that obviously helps mafia draws attention to said player and makes their lynch more likely. Given that you didn't kill, I don't see any reason for scum CKD

not

to jail Gorgon.

My most important question here, is this. You've stated earlier that your criterion for jailing someone was that they looked scummy. So Adele looked scummy. Why have you not at any point in the game raised any point against her?

During this game you've voted or FOSed mathcam, DAS (me), Zoneace, Gorgon (on day one and after you jailed him) shaft.ed, and today Yvonne.

I want to know WHY you thought Adele was scummy enough to warrant jailing and taking away the opportunity to catch scum if she's town, and why if you felt she was scummy you didn't mention this.

Do you honestly think that one of the watchers would have targeted Mathcam? I doubt Adele's being locked up had any effect outside of possibly confirming people's targets and me passing on my role to her, which is not incredibly high priority.

This is, erm, disturbing. The notion that locking up Adele

did not cause the town harm

is not the same as the notion that it

could not have caused the town harm.

Imagine the situation where I didn't doc protect anyone or CKD jailed me, and say TSQ died.

A reason I don't think CKD is scum. If he were, the scum would know that Adele was locked up. They could have attempted a kill on Yvonne with only the risk of Doc protection and no risk of being caught. This seems like a good gambit to me. Only breaks down if Yvonne and CKD are scum, but then Fonz would be dead in that case not Mathcam. Therefore Yvonne and CKD are definitely not scumbuddies.

So, the most logical candidate to be watched dies, with the jailor locking up one watcher and the other conveniently looking the other way at the time. I'd say that would draw suspicion pretty heavily onto the pair of them, no?

Can DGB be watched? I know she can't be targeted but if performing a NK she can be watched right?

Yes, we got this confirmed D1 relating to JDodge.

[curiouskarmadog]

I dont like how people are suggesting I dont use my ability.

The problem here is that no-one suggested that. It was suggested that locking up watcher, motivator or doc would be scummy- locking up DGB, TSQ, or Cicero would have been strictly preferable to doing nothing.

CKD, you didnt have to target anyone.

How does targetting Gorgon help mafia? It doesn't, but it doesn't hurt, and anything anyone does that obviously helps mafia draws attention to said player and makes their lynch more likely. Given that you didn't kill, I don't see any reason for scum CKD

not

to jail Gorgon.

Any reason I provide here is walking further down the WIFOM territory. But you really cant see why targeting anyone else Day 1 would have been better for mafia if I was mafia?

My most important question here, is this. You've stated earlier that your criterion for jailing someone was that they looked scummy. So Adele looked scummy. Why have you not at any point in the game raised any point against her?

Read post 889 again. I reread before I chose, I thought the link between Yvonne and Adele looks slightly scummy. I don’t believe that Yvonne submitted a kill the day before, so I went with Adele. Question for you, after my explanation of why I did what I did you post 899, but did not mention that the action was scummy at all. Why do you do it now when it is now in fashion to do so?

If I knew (or felt) then what I know (feel) now, I would have targeted Yvonne instead. But look, that is still a watcher and I probably would be in the same place I am now. I am not sorry for what I did, I tried to stop a kill and find scum. I chose Adele (over Yvonne) because I felt no one would predict that I would do that.

Town, there are 3 scum left in this game. We are essentially at lylo. I am one of the only people in this game that can stop a NK. IF Fonz is scum, I am the only person that can stop a NK. They need to convince 2 of you that I am scum to hang me. Then it is up to Fonz to save the game at night. If Fonz is scum, the game is over. Some of you are really good analytical players and should be realizing that I am not really the play today. The mafia want me out of this game. You can label this as a plea for emotion (or a pity play), but I hope you really are thinking about what I am saying here.

It is confirmed that at least I haven’t submitted a kill. Shouldn’t the play today be someone who at least could have submitted a kill either night?

My vote stands..I think Yvonne is scum.

[DrippingGoofball]

Some of you are really good analytical players and should be realizing that I am not really the play today.

I don't fit in that category, but Yvonne is light years ahead of any other player right now in the scum race.

I can't imagine myself voting for CKD today.

[shaft.ed]

Do you honestly think that one of the watchers would have targeted Mathcam? I doubt Adele's being locked up had any effect outside of possibly confirming people's targets and me passing on my role to her, which is not incredibly high priority.

This is, erm, disturbing. The notion that locking up Adele

did not cause the town harm

is not the same as the notion that it

could not have caused the town harm.

Imagine the situation where I didn't doc protect anyone or CKD jailed me, and say TSQ died.

Fonz you're taking my quote entirely out of context. This was in reply to cicero's inflammatory post:

A kill that escaped scrutiny because somebody unnecessarily locked up a watcher.

Here he's trying to make it sound as if Adele would have 100% been watching Mathcam last night. While I know this can't be known for certain, I would definitely put the odds of her not watching Cam much greater than the odds she would have.

So, the most logical candidate to be watched dies, with the jailor locking up one watcher and the other conveniently looking the other way at the time. I'd say that would draw suspicion pretty heavily onto the pair of them, no?

There are many viable players for Yvonne to have been watching last night besides yourself. Also the watchers don't want to overlap their watching targets so it's likely they will want to spread out the watching. There are soooo many ways that Yvonne can explain not watching you that are perfectly viable. CKD would likely have drawn more ire for jailing Adele but I don't see that gambit as incredibly more dangerous for such a pairing and it locks up today as LyLo.

[cicero]

A kill that escaped scrutiny because somebody unnecessarily locked up a watcher.

Here he's trying to make it sound as if Adele would have 100% been watching Mathcam last night. While I know this can't be known for certain, I would definitely put the odds of her not watching Cam much greater than the odds she would have.

Shaft.ed, I am not! Why not? Because that would be stupid and, at least in this particular respect, I ain't stupid. My answer is the same as Fonz's which he articulated very well:

This is, erm, disturbing. The notion that locking up Adele did not cause the town harm is not the same as the notion that it could not have caused the town harm. Imagine the situation where I didn't doc protect anyone or CKD jailed me, and say TSQ died.

If there had been three watchers going, Mathcam was a perfectly reasonable choice to watch. The rest of what you are saying is WIFOM.

CKD keeps telling me I need to shoot in the dark to find the person who took the shot. But I don't know who took the shot. What I do know is the guy who blindfolded the more experienced watcher when I know he knew better.

Vote: Curiouskarmadog

[YvonneSeer]

Those of you who have me very high up on the naughty list, could you please post an overall case as to why you think I'm scum? Put in as many tiny details if you want, as long as you think it's relevant to me being scum. Don't do word-heavy walls of text though. Keep it short and simple, thanks.

Oh, and no "I agree with Player X" after Player X has posted his case against me. Even if you have nothing new to add, rewrite the damn thing in your own words if you must.

[curiouskarmadog]

cicero please address the bolded...

Town, there are 3 scum left in this game. We are essentially at lylo. I am one of the only people in this game that can stop a NK. IF Fonz is scum, I am the only person that can stop a NK. They need to convince 2 of you that I am scum to hang me. Then it is up to Fonz to save the game at night. If Fonz is scum, the game is over. Some of you are really good analytical players and should be realizing that I am not really the play today. The mafia want me out of this game.

You can label this as a plea for emotion (or a pity play), but I hope you really are thinking about what I am saying here.

It is confirmed that at least I haven’t submitted a kill. Shouldn’t the play today be someone who at least could have submitted a kill either night?

My vote stands..I think Yvonne is scum.

even though it is a certian that I did not submit a kill you want us to believe you think there is a higher chance that I am scum than others. You also want us to believe that you think I am the best play for a lynch today given that if you mislynch, the only person that can protect from a kill is fonz. You feel after he coached (in your words) Yvonne he is not scummy? Please explain why this is a wise vote.


What has change that now I deserve your vote?

should I be expecting Yvonne's vote shortly for no reason too?

[curiouskarmadog]

Those of you who have me very high up on the naughty list, could you please post an overall case as to why you think I'm scum? Put in as many tiny details if you want, as long as you think it's relevant to me being scum. Don't do word-heavy walls of text though. Keep it short and simple, thanks.

Oh, and no "I agree with Player X" after Player X has posted his case against me. Even if you have nothing new to add, rewrite the damn thing in your own words if you must.

put in tiny details, but you dont words of text...(laughing)..you are even directing how someone can provide a case against you.

here I will make is simple.

have you scum hunted at all this game?

you refused to go claim until Fonz practically told you (or gave away) the best claim for the moment.

You tried to direct me yesterday by telling me I should spend the rest of the game jailing gorgon, why, were you afraid I might jail someone else?

[shaft.ed]

OK. I'm rethinking my CKD position at the moment. I'm not liking some of his appeals to emotion but I really think he is right. Mathematicaly speaking he is a horrible play for today. We know he's not the killing scum on either day this means he has only a 1/4 chance of being scum. Adele is the only other play from last night that has these same odds being 1/4. The rest of us are at 3/8 since no one's actions can be verified. Yes I know I posted yesterday that if CKD jailed Adele for this specific purpose we're screwed so if someone truly believes this please make a strong counter argument.

Additionally CKD and Fonz are the only chance of saving the town in a mislynch tonight. Should be noted that CKD can protect in two ways were the Fonz is only one. Finally, the Fonz cannot self protect thus with CKD out of the game the scum kill Fonz and it's completely over with a mislynch. Thus a CKD mislynch is a complete loss.

I'm going to do a thorough review of the last two day's night actions to try and come up with some useful insights. I'll try to get that up in a bit.