Mafia 74: Minimally Flavoured - Game over!

[Snaps_the_Pirate]

Hey. I'll be low activity until next Monday and then no activity until Wednesday. Sorry for the inconvienience.

Bah! I missed this post somehow. Looks like RL has Liamcool too.
I'm going to let my vote stand for the time being. Liamcool has been a low poster and added little content for the whole game.

[Snaps_the_Pirate]

If there truly are two scum groups, then looking at how people interacted with Xyl and Egruntz won't be all that helpful. It also seems really strange, considering their behaviour looked exactly like distancing to me.

It does look as if these two were distancing. However, now that we know that they are on two different scum teams (I don't see any other explanation for the names being different colors) then the logical conclusion is that Xyl was assuming that Egruntz was an innocent, one who looked like he was about to be lynched, and was trying to establish an FoI for himself.

I can't agree with Bookitty's statement that "looking at how people interacted with Xyl and Egruntz won't be all that helpful." Xly and Egruntz both have scumbuddies who knew their status. This is bound to affect the interactions between them.

[Bookitty]

I've given my reasons for my OGML vote. (I don't remember offhand if anyone else had voted him.) The only other reason I have goes to WIFOM about the night kill and Fonz's suspicion of OGML perhaps being a reason for his death, but that depends on OGML being scum with Xylthixlm, not egruntz (assuming we're right about two scum groups) and I can't find any connections there.

I think a clearer way to say what I meant is that *I* haven't found much of use in looking at how people interacted with Xylthixlm. And I have the opposite problem with egruntz... basically all the interactions I'm looking at there can be taken as legitimate bad reaction to his horrible no-lynch plan, or defending someone who is clearly a newbie... I can't derive much from it either. Nearly all of us had one reaction or the other to egruntz, and I don't have a clear idea whether scum would distance or defend such play. If you see something different, Snaps, I'd be glad to hear it, but I'm not gleaning much I think is definitive or useful in either case personally.

Have you seen any such connections? If so, what information have you derived?

[Skruffs]

Side note: Egruntz quoted bookitty more than any other person. Is this because bookitty focused more attention on him than others, or was there something MORE...

[Bookitty]

Hmmm. I would guess it was because I voted him in the first place, and because I was one of his most active and vocal critics. For instance, Skruffs, he'd have had difficulty quoting your predecessor more, because your predecessor hardly posted at all.

[PJ.]

Unvote, Vote: BooKitty

For post 552. How do you know that Xyl wasn't killed by an SK or Vigilante? Why are you assuming that the NK's were not CKD and Fonz, in a situation in which a Egruntz-OGML team would could have killed Fonz and the Xyl scum group killed CKD. Not only does that situation seem a lot more likely but it seems like you have inside knowledge of how the Night Kills went down.

I'm still suspicious of Phate but this is of much more importance.

[Bookitty]

According to your theory, insofar as I can follow it (and correct me if I'm wrong) I was scumbuddies with Xylthixlm, distancing with him during our argument, and then I pushed a case on egruntz that he was scumbuddies with Xyl and was trying to lynch town. But in order to know who egruntz's scumteam was targetting, I'd have to be buddies with egruntz, not Xylthixlm, and so why would I have pushed a case on my buddy when I didn't have to? If there are two scum teams, as we now believe, then they are in direct competition with each other, and they would NOT be bussing right now.

So your argument depends on me knowing that Xylthixlm was killed by one of the scumteams. He wasn't killed by his own scumteam, so you're arguing that I was scum with egruntz and bussed him, since the only way I could know that egruntz's scumteam killed Xyl is if I was on egruntz's scumteam. I don't think scum would be bussing when they know there's two scumteams and they lose if the other one has more people at the end. If there are two scumteams, then it's a safe bet that two out of the three nightkills were scum-kills and the third was ... whatever, so speculating on who might have killed who isn't proof of anything.

You have it backwards. I gave my reasons for thinking OGML might be scum with egruntz earlier, and I was looking for reasons for the nightkills. The Fonz was very combative with OGML, so perhaps that's a reason for OGML to want The Fonz dead. Therefore, it's WIFOM, as in fact I said, because it's a small additional reason why MY vote is on OGML, but it wasn't the bulk of my case against him.

Panzer, if you think I'm scum with inside knowledge about who killed who, which scumteam would that make me a member of, and why? Because your logic only makes sense if I was part of both.

[PJ.]

You missed my arguement apparently. You were assuming that Xyl was killed by a scum group. He could have been shot by a vig, in which case OGML doesn't have to be part of egruntz's group. It seemed you completely ignored that possibility, which could lead to you knowing one of the kills.

So group 1 Egruntz-___-____ and group 2 is Xylthixm-____-____

By your logic you saying that OGML-Egruntz- ___ is a group but the only thing stopping you is that you are set on thinking that they shot Xyl. 3 kills means they could have shot Fonz. The only reason you wouldn't consider this is due to you knowing one of the night kills.

Since your accusing OGML if he is indeed scum he is I believe he is of the XYL scum group. I believe, you are in the Egruntz group and you are just trying to get OGML lynched regardless of his alignment. which is how you'd know your group killed Xyl and trying to pin it on OGML. It would be safe to bus Egruntz because it makes it easier to stay at 2 and you'd be tied with xyl due to dying,

[Bookitty]

I made my case on OGML without mentioning my WIFOM thoughts about The Fonz's nightkill. I don't know who killed The Fonz. I don't see a reason for a vig to do so, but I was suspicious he was scum with Xyl, as I stated previously, so I was wrong about that. I wasn't considering two scum groups at the time because there hadn't been any reason to do so. And additionally, I don't know how you can know it's two groups of three, rather than two groups of two... why are you assuming that?

Your logic is escaping me. According to you, I'm in egruntz's scumgroup, and ... so I accused him of being scum with Xyl, and pushed for his lynch, so I could bus him? WHY would I do that as scum? Would I WANT to even the odds for the other scumteam? How would that be helpful to my team in the least?

Why would scum bus one of their own when there's another scumteam in the equation? What is the advantage to doing so at this point, in your view?

[vollkan]

I think a clearer way to say what I meant is that *I* haven't found much of use in looking at how people interacted with Xylthixlm. And I have the opposite problem with egruntz... basically all the interactions I'm looking at there can be taken as legitimate bad reaction to his horrible no-lynch plan, or defending someone who is clearly a newbie... I can't derive much from it either. Nearly all of us had one reaction or the other to egruntz, and I don't have a clear idea whether scum would distance or defend such play. If you see something different, Snaps, I'd be glad to hear it, but I'm not gleaning much I think is definitive or useful in either case personally.

Have you seen any such connections? If so, what information have you derived?

I actually agree with you about egruntz. Boo, remember Roach in Mini 492? I think I see the same thing happening here egruntz - both were newbscum who played in an insane manner, denying the ability to judge reactions. I've been reading over egruntz without being able to nail down anything solid.

I'm going to review OGML next up myself.

[PJ.]

Cause the norm is 2 groups of 3..every game i've been in with 2 greoups has been 2 groups of 3.

[Phate]

Your logic is escaping me. According to you, I'm in egruntz's scumgroup, and ... so I accused him of being scum with Xyl, and pushed for his lynch, so I could bus him? WHY would I do that as scum? Would I WANT to even the odds for the other scumteam? How would that be helpful to my team in the least?

Why would scum bus one of their own when there's another scumteam in the equation? What is the advantage to doing so at this point, in your view?

Panzer, did you miss all these questions?

[PJ.]

The advantage is to raise one's perception as town. Bussing your teammate is a viable option because it makes you look town. It would help your team by not getting you lynched by the town because they think you are town. You weren't the only one who accused him and until you mentioned it I didn't even know you had an arguement against egruntz. Again you'd do it because it'd make you look town.

[Bookitty]

The advantage is to raise one's perception as town. Bussing your teammate is a viable option because it makes you look town. It would help your team by not getting you lynched by the town because they think you are town. You weren't the only one who accused him and until you mentioned it I didn't even know you had an arguement against egruntz. Again you'd do it because it'd make you look town.

This is just ridiculous, Panzer. I was the one who brought UP the idea that egruntz and Xyl were scumbuddies. I made the case, I pushed it, and you didn't even know I had an ARGUMENT against him? Did you read anything during the last day of the game?

Your argument is complete nonsense, and you admit you don't even KNOW what happened yesterday. I ask you again, what is the advantage to a scum TEAM to bus one of its members as soon as it finds out there are two scumteams? How does that help a scum TEAM to win?

[Bookitty]

I'll second that question rishi, although i think some of his analysis(in the post 427) I don't necessarily agree with, one being voting OGML.

I'm in consensus with BooKitty. I feel we had it right and we let it slip right through are fingers

Unvote,Vote:Egruntz

\

At this point, I think if DE is scum, there are probably 2 scum groups, Egruntz and Xyl and maybe one other, in "Group A" and DE and company in "Group B".

Okay, this was right after my case on egruntz. So... you didn't know I made an argument against him?

O RLY?

[vollkan]

The advantage is to raise one's perception as town. Bussing your teammate is a viable option because it makes you look town. It would help your team by not getting you lynched by the town because they think you are town. You weren't the only one who accused him and until you mentioned it I didn't even know you had an arguement against egruntz. Again you'd do it because it'd make you look town.

This is just ridiculous, Panzer. I was the one who brought UP the idea that egruntz and Xyl were scumbuddies. I made the case, I pushed it, and you didn't even know I had an ARGUMENT against him? Did you read anything during the last day of the game?

Your argument is complete nonsense, and you admit you don't even KNOW what happened yesterday. I ask you again, what is the advantage to a scum TEAM to bus one of its members as soon as it finds out there are two scumteams? How does that help a scum TEAM to win?

I'm in agreement with Bookitty here. She led the charge against egruntz in #426. I followed that up with my analyses, but she definitely started it.

As for the bussing charge, I'll go further and call it bullshit. Fine, yes, Bookitty could have bussed egruntz - but beyond that speculation I see nothing. Similarly, Bookitty might well be scum on the non-egruntz scum group. Similarly, Bookitty might well be town.

[Phate]

I find it highly unlikely that Bookitty is scum in group A (egruntz). I find it most likely that she's town, although, as vollkan mentioned, she could indeed be scum in group B (Xyl).

[xyzzy]

I've been without interwebz (gasp! shock! horror!) for nearly a week; sorry for my absence. Will start catching up.

[PJ.]

Upon further review, I am defeated

Unvote

.

[Bookitty]

Upon further review, I am defeated

Unvote

.

What's your impression of OGML?

[Snaps_the_Pirate]

Welcome back Xyzzy. Hopefully we’ll be seeing some contribution from him now.

Everyone knows that the best way for mafia to avoid making a mistake and giving themselves away is to avoid posting.
Xyzzy is doing just that. He has posted a grand total of 8 times in the entire game. On top of that his posts have not added very much to the discussion. Looks like mafia lurking to me.

My lack of posting has been due to non-mafia issues. If you'll notice, I post more heavily on the weekends than during weekdays. This is no coincidence.

I’m not sure of what to make of this, considering it is now Sunday evening and he only posted twice this weekend, and those post have not contained much substance.


Currently my biggest FoSs are Xyzzy then Liamcool. Phate is now on my radar, too.

[xyzzy]

Snaps, you keep accusing everyone who doesn't post 20,000 times per day (yay hyperbole), but

is that really a scumtell

?

Are you willing to lynch someone based on how high their activity level is, or on how much they post? I'm getting the sneaking suspicion that the answer is "no", and that you're really just trying to start a wagon or two. If you get me lynched because I have a life beyond MS and I generally don't have the time to make massive posts analyzing the number of instances of the letter "m" a particular player uses, and why that proves they're obvious scum, does

that make me scum?

Is it

better

to invent random attacks on people than to post when it really contributes something?

I think you'll agree, if you're really acting on behalf of the town, that baseless attacks for the sake of looking protown aren't helpful, and to suggest that I'm scum because I choose to contribute only that which will actually help the town, does nothing useful - it only slows us down.

Cause the norm is 2 groups of 3..every game i've been in with 2 greoups has been 2 groups of 3.

Assuming that this game is remotely similar to anything else is really quite scummy - we have no reason to assume that anything about this game is "traditional". Knowledge about the setup is a really bad thing to guess at, and any good player should know that - but remember, the scum have MUCH more information about the setup, so for scum to suggest something like this usually seems quite rational.

FoS: Panzer

[vollkan]

Cause the norm is 2 groups of 3..every game i've been in with 2 greoups has been 2 groups of 3.

Can you explain the relevance of this Panzer? What were you addressing when you said this (as in, what question was the "Cause" in response to)?

[Snaps_the_Pirate]

Snaps, you keep accusing everyone who doesn't post 20,000 times per day (yay hyperbole)

Not quite true. My argument has been that lurkers provide a hiding place for scum. If a large group of innocents lurk, it becames really easy for scum to get away with posting very little, and therfore much harder to find.

Are you willing to lynch someone based on how high their activity level is, or on how much they post?

The answer to that question is "Yes". I am quite willing to vote for a player based on their post count IF they don't contribute much in the way of discussion. So far, out of Xyzzy's ten post in this game, only two of them have contributed anything, his first and his last. (Although the last is mostly defense of his low postings.)

to suggest that I'm scum because I choose to contribute only that which will actually help the town, does nothing useful - it only slows us down.

Let's explore this shall we? How much has Xyzzy REALLY contributed to the town?
post 214 : His first post after replacing into the game. A detailed post examining Egrunts and Disciple Slayer. Votes for Fonz and DS.
post 217 : Unvote Fonz
post 263 : Agrees with Xyl. Stuff that hurts town is scummy
post 332 : "Eteco looks bad"
post 384 : "Xyl's argument vs. Panz is weak. 99% sure Ecto is scum"
post 428 : "Good player can post little and still contribute"
post 433 : "BM makes 100 post per day"
post 489 : FoS everyone who voted for Erguntz
post 567 : I'm back
post 571 : Defends low post style, FoS Panzer
I do agree that a good player can post little and still contribute, but I don't see Xyzzy doing this. He looks like he is hiding.

Unvote Liamcool
Vote Xyzzy

[Antithesis]

That is pretty much how I read Xyzzy as well.

vote Xyzzy