Mini 539: Game over

[Jester]

I'll put my post #3 out tomorrow, all. Have to get some work done today at some point, too.

[Shteven]

Shteven. Of Shteven, Ythill says, "the majority of the tells I uncovered regarding he and his predecessor were dropped while defending and under pressure which, IMO, makes them less reliable". I disagree. In my experience, tells dropped under pressure are the most reliable... if you know how to read them.

I imagine this is coming up in post #3 anyways, but just in case:

1) What do you mean by if you know how to read them? I wouldn't mind some useful tips on how to find scum if you're willing to teach your secrets

2) What then, do you think of me? What tells in particular did you see and is there any confusion I can clear up/questions that need an answer?

[kuribo]

Jester, two things:

One, I feel that given Ythill's attitude in the early part of the game, (basically taking the welfare of the town onto his shoulders alone) he likely had Claus in his mind as a target, and chose not to disclose that. Perhaps even intentionally misleading us as he had done by purposely dropping scumtells. Maybe he feared the existence of a Mafia doctor.

And two, regardless of his reasoning, we still got extremely lucky. It was a very risky move on Ythill's part, and if it hadn't paid off, we'd be cursing him right now.

[Jester]

A brief delay before my post #3, which I promise will be up within the hour. But there's a clump of it that doesn't really fit with the rest, and I felt like it made more sense to separate that clump into its own post.

I feel his interaction with Claus was particularily damning.

Could you go into more detail here?

SSK hasn't denied the claim, so that means they are indeed both masons, or both scum. The second possibility is too remote to address today.

I agree with this, with one little caveat. Let's assume for a minute that Incognito and SSK are telling the truth. If this is the case, Incognito has been a very good scum-hunter. MafiaSSK has been a very poor scum-hunter, possibly the worst I've ever seen. The mafia aren't going to kill MafiaSSK because that would confirm Incognito's claim. They might kill Incognito, except that would confirm MafiaSSK's claim, leave the rest of us with a confirmed townie, and put the mafia in the position of probably having to waste a NK on a useless, but confirmed townie. Either way, that gives the town a confirmed-innocent townie. Therefore, killing either of them is not a good play for the mafia. Better to leave some of us in doubt. Therefore, I can't see the mafia NKing either Incognito or MafiaSSK, at least not tonight.

Now let's assume they're both lying. In that case, they're also both obviously not going to be NKed, unless there's an SK. So, this mason claim could be a very clever claim indeed, one intended to throw the town into turmoil for the next couple of days while the two of them sit safely in their "presumed townie" status. I think this is unlikely... but "too remote to address today"? No.

If the town gets desperate and can find no better targets, it might be instructive to lynch MafiaSSK. He's completely useless as a scum-hunter, and lynching him would either definitely prove or definitely disprove Incognito's innocence. If Incognito is innocent, the mafia would

have

to respond by killing him the next night, but if we kept that day going for a while, we could potentially learn some really interesting things, plus all of Incognito's (long) posts would be confirmed as truth as he sees it. Right now, MafiaSSK might be worth more to the town dead than alive.

Want to get into the game, MafiaSSK? I'd appreciate it. Thanks.

[Jester]

Post #3.

OK, who do I think is suspicious? In rough order:

Shteven.

kuribo makes the beginning of a great case for the Shteven lynch in his post 563. I found myself nodding pretty much all the way through it. My own case for being suspicious of Shteven, in addition to what kuribo points out:
:arrow: Northjayhawk got on a very early Xtoxm band-wagon, apparently randomly (16). Then, when questioned on it, he suddenly said it was a serious vote and went out of his way to justify it (39). Then, when he was pressured on this, he tried to defend himself (101), then flipped this post into a weird little justification against "arguing for innocence", which made no sense to me. Ythill (correctly) called him out on it, and his response was an over-reaction to say the least (135). I really feel like NJH felt like he was digging himself into a hole, and abandoned the game rather than try to defend his questionable actions.
:arrow: Then Shteven jumped in, and his own play, if anything, started out even weirder. Here's an excerpt from his 163:

I am never happy to mislynch anyone. I've mislynched townies after they claimed a power role, then re-claimed a non-power role and admitted to lying. It's still a dead townie. However, mislynches are designed into the game. There's a reason town outnumbers scum (roughly, depending on setup) 3:1. You just can't be right all the time. Some mislynches are worse than others. I would never be proud of it, but I think a MafiaSSK mislynch wouldn't be as bad as some others, mainly due to the shallowness of his answers.

I'm trying really hard

not

to read this as, "Yes, MafiaSSK would be a mislynch, but it would be a

good

mislynch!" Ummmm...

huh?

:arrow: More minor to me, but interesting: as kuribo correctly points out, Shteven was the champion of the DS lynch (275), and was ranked high on Claus's nice list. What kuribo misses: Shteven immediately agreed with most of Claus's lists (317)... until Claus was found to be scum, at which point, Shteven felt there was limited value to looking at the lists (476). None of these are scum tells in and of themselves, but combined with everything else, none of them look particularly good.
:arrow: I found Shteven's defense from kuribo's 563 (567 and 570) to be over-defensive. In particular, he says:

Funny, that was exactly my point. Maybe, maybe not. Maybe Claus is a cross dresser*, maybe he isn't. You have to -show- that he is or isn't. Just saying "Well he might be" is not helpful in the least.

Tell me, Shteven, how do you go about proving a negative? Suspicion is what this game is all about. Only rarely do scum stand up and proclaim themselves as scum, so all you

can

do is lay out suspicions, say people might be scum, and proceed from there. For you to argue that kuribo can't or shouldn't play this way is specious at best, damning at the worst. You also gloss over the point that kuribo listed lots of suspicious activity in his 563, not just the fact that you appeared on Claus's nice list. kuribo correctly points this out in his 573.
:arrow: Finally, and this is a lot harder to pin to a single post, but Shteven's play has been... slippery. Initially, he was very gung-ho for a Ythill lynch, and a lot of this play felt very OMGUS-y. He listed three initial targets (Apyadg, Ythill, and ChronX) but his cases against Apyadg and ChronX were extremely weak, leading to a Ythill vote. When that didn't go anywhere and Ythill claimed, suddenly Shteven's suspicions became completely unanchored. He had suspicions at various times during this period for (deep breath) Apyadg, Incognito, Xtoxm, ChronX, MafiaSSK, charter, and finally, Disciple Slayer. That's more than half the players. Then he seemed to wait, and went into a councilor/adviser kind of play-style, until the DS band-wagon started gaining steam. And now he seems to be trying to settle back into that councilor/adviser role for day two. I find people who do this scummy.

So, really long explanation for my

vote: Shteven

.

Who else?

Hjallti

. His play has been incredibly off the radar. Ythill kept describing Ho1den as "definitive townie" or whatever, but never really justified it, something that I thought was kind of odd. I found Ho1den's play to be really off:
:arrow: In the early game, he joined the Xtoxm band-wagon with ChronX and MafiaSSK (25), but then took a blast from ChronX for doing it (49)! An early obvious inconsistency from ChronX. What's suspicious is that ChronX's attack on Ho1den was rather mild, but Ho1den's defense was

very

graceful, almost elegant (56). It pinged my scumdar rather hard.
:arrow: For the rest of the early- to mid-game, Ho1den was content to sit back, voice no suspicions about anybody, but instead just chide this person or that person on their play. JP got chided in post 80, DS got chided in 91, Xtoxm and SSK got chided in 149. It was like Ho1den was just hanging back, coaching people. Ho1den even admits to it... but doesn't stop doing it. Who'd he admit it to? ChronX.
:arrow: Then Ho1den received a massive defense from Ythill in Ythill's 167 ("Ho1den is the towniest mofo in our bunch, IMO.") which I felt was completely unjustified. How Ythill came to this conclusion on the strength of 15 posts, most of them of the "coaching" variety, I don't know.
:arrow: Then Ho1den drops out, there's a long,

long

gap, then Hjallti jumps into the slot. He says "I just went reading day 1, a long read! I will comment when I have time." Then... doesn't. Then, when he finally comments, starts with day two!
:arrow: His play since then has been of the NFL color commentator variety.

So, early play was very suspicious to me, later play has done nothing to reassure me about it.

Gorgon

. Talk about flying under the radar!
:arrow: charter had a grand total of 11 posts! Two of them struck me as particularly odd, 96 and 112. In 96, charter wants to know why Ythill thinks he's "definitive town." So do I. It was a perfect opportunity for charter to comment on someone -- anyone! -- else on the list Ythill posted. He didn't, other than mentioning that Ythill also felt that Ho1den was also definitive town. Nothing about anyone else. Scumdar ping. 112, though, was even worse. In it, he chides Apyadg for not asking questions of players in this game. Guess how many questions charter had asked of people in the game up to that point. Two. One of Apyadg ("Why did you remove your vote from MafiaSSK?"), one of Ythill ("Why do you think Ho1den and I are definitive town?"). Inconsistent, to say the least.
:arrow: Gorgon has 6 posts, one of which is "hi" and another of which is "too busy to play." Of the remaining four, I have questions about them. One, I posted in my previous post (why does he think the interactions between Claus and Apyadg were particularly damning?). I want to hear the answer to this before I start asking my others.

Anyway, my current feeling is that charter/Gorgon is too far under the radar. More after I get my first Gorgon question answered.


And finally, kind of a hail mary. I mentioned that I currently completely believe that JP and Claus were on opposite teams. I still believe that. My current belief is that JP is pro-town. But if we

do

end up with two bodies on night two, I think it would be interesting to reevaluate JP from the stand-point of him possibly being an SK. And I have to admit my reasoning on this is a little touchy-feely.

Countries routinely build war-plans on how they would fight anyone and everyone. There was a recent Real Life Comics comic about this which I think illustrates this neatly. I occasionally see MS players go this route, and they always turn out to be something other than what they appear at first glance. JP puts out an enormous amount of text, but as I was taking notes on his play, I finally realized that he's playing just this way (I think it finally struck me when he got around to doing Xtoxm in his 407). He's put out at least one such post about everyone's suspicious play. JP, are you suspicious of

everybody

? If so, why? I'd second Ythill's earlier nomination. If there's a cop, investigating JP would be a great choice.

Don't read too much into that right now. Right now, I think JP is town. But if we end up with two night two bodies, I think it's worth a close look.

And that's it for my suspicions for now. One more post to catch up with stuff since I joined, and I think I'm caught up! Yay!

[kuribo]

If the town gets desperate and can find no better targets, it might be instructive to lynch MafiaSSK. He's completely useless as a scum-hunter, and lynching him would either definitely prove or definitely disprove Incognito's innocence. If Incognito is innocent, the mafia would

have

to respond by killing him the next night, but if we kept that day going for a while, we could potentially learn some really interesting things, plus all of Incognito's (long) posts would be confirmed as truth as he sees it. Right now, MafiaSSK might be worth more to the town dead than alive.

This is a terrible play: If Incog is telling the truth, then both he and Mafia are town. If we lynch MafiaSSK, then the scum can kill Incog tonight, and we've lost two confirmed townies. On the other hand, if we keep hunting scum, then at best, they can only kill ONE confirmed townie.

Simply put, the scum can't afford to let both stay alive, and the town will be at a huge disadvantage if we kill one and let them kill the other.

Sure, we could get confirmation today, but we'd basically be killing one of them, and then allowing the scum to murder the other. Why give them what amounts to a free kill?

I really hope you haven't thought this through as opposed to intentionally trying to misdirect us.

[Jester]

This is a terrible play: If Incog is telling the truth, then both he and Mafia are town. If we lynch MafiaSSK, then the scum can kill Incog tonight, and we've lost two confirmed townies. On the other hand, if we keep hunting scum, then at best, they can only kill ONE confirmed townie.

::nods:: I recognize this. Like I said, it's a desperation play, not a first (or second, or even third) resort.

I feel like a lot of people are being influenced by Incognito, which is fine if he's town. If he's not, though... That's why I'm thinking if we get desperate, that will be a possible way to confirm his townie-ness.

[Incognito]

I need to read through Jester's case against Shteven and his suspicions of Gorgon and Hjallti more thoroughly before coming to a decision about all of this. Jester's play certainly stands in striking contrast so far to his predecessor's, which was to be expected of course considering how he played in my Vengeful game. =)

Jester, I may have missed this but what are your feelings about Xtoxm?

[Justin Playfair]

Jester,

About your questions to me. Yeah, I am mostly suspicious of everybody. But I’m a little curious about the notion that I’ve positioned myself to go to war with anyone at any time. My behavior on day one led Ythill to suspect that Incognito and I were scum buddies, and I’ve barely done more than ask Kuribo to clarify his position on something. Certainly I went pretty hard against your predecessor and Ythill, I sure made a case against DS, here on day two I’ve been more suspicious of Xtoxm, and I can see where it could be construed that I laid the groundwork for an attack against Shteven, but I’ve barely taken a pass at Charter/Gorgon or Ho1den/Hjallti. In my defense neither were here very much until replacements. In a greater sense (and especially clear, I know, if you’ve metaed me) I do tend to suspect everyone, and sometimes (though I don’t think in this game) it diminishes my ability to effectively scum hunt.

Oh, and I’m not the SK, nor do I think it’s likely we have one. We should know for sure tonight, though.

Just a couple things about other things you’ve said:

You mention a couple times that you found Ythill’s clearing of Ho1den to be odd. But since we now know Ythill was town why would you characterize it this way as opposed to baseless or perhaps incorrect or something along those lines? Or do you see some possible ulterior motive in Ythill’s statements regarding Ho1den?

I also noticed Hjallti skipping day one and almost commented on it, but I can’t figure a reason why this would benefit scum in general or a scum-Hjallti in particular. Given the kind of neutral and technical opinions Hjallti evinced about day two it seems unlikely he would have felt forced to give any real conclusions about day one behavior either, so I rejected the thought of him not wanting to be pinned down to a position. So odd, yes, but if you have a scummier interpretation of this I’d be interested in hearing it.

Earlier you suggested you would be writing something about Xtoxm in your post #3. What happened that made him fall off your scum list, if he did?

Thanks for any answers.

[Shteven]

Jester says:

Then Shteven jumped in, and his own play, if anything, started out even weirder. Here's an excerpt from his 163:

I am never happy to mislynch anyone. I've mislynched townies after they claimed a power role, then re-claimed a non-power role and admitted to lying. It's still a dead townie. However, mislynches are designed into the game. There's a reason town outnumbers scum (roughly, depending on setup) 3:1. You just can't be right all the time. Some mislynches are worse than others. I would never be proud of it, but I think a MafiaSSK mislynch wouldn't be as bad as some others, mainly due to the shallowness of his answers.

I'm trying really hard not to read this as, "Yes, MafiaSSK would be a mislynch, but it would be a good mislynch!" Ummmm... huh?

I said:

If the town gets desperate and can find no better targets, it might be instructive to lynch MafiaSSK. He's completely useless as a scum-hunter, and lynching him would either definitely prove or definitely disprove Incognito's innocence. If Incognito is innocent, the mafia would have to respond by killing him the next night, but if we kept that day going for a while, we could potentially learn some really interesting things, plus all of Incognito's (long) posts would be confirmed as truth as he sees it. Right now, MafiaSSK might be worth more to the town dead than alive.

I don't see how he can believably have a problem with what I've said. Also, I specifically said it would bad to mislynch; calling it a "good lynch" is a big jump from "some mislynches are worse than others".

I'll get around to most of the other points soon, but this one was extremely weak and I couldn't wait. Just when I was starting to trust Jester, he manages to keep it interesting!

[Shteven]

EBWOP:

*mutter* the jester says and I said are reversed. His quote is on the bottom. The bulk of the top quote block is me (the inner part) the outer part is his. Sorry for the confusion.

[Shteven]

I found Shteven's defense from kuribo's 563 (567 and 570) to be over-defensive. In particular, he says:

Funny, that was exactly my point. Maybe, maybe not. Maybe Claus is a cross dresser*, maybe he isn't. You have to -show- that he is or isn't. Just saying "Well he might be" is not helpful in the least.

Tell me, Shteven, how do you go about proving a negative? Suspicion is what this game is all about. Only rarely do scum stand up and proclaim themselves as scum, so all you can do is lay out suspicions, say people might be scum, and proceed from there. For you to argue that kuribo can't or shouldn't play this way is specious at best, damning at the worst. You also gloss over the point that kuribo listed lots of suspicious activity in his 563, not just the fact that you appeared on Claus's nice list. kuribo correctly points this out in his 573.

And I asked in post 576:

Other than the nice list, the "there's 3 scum" issue, is there anything else you'd like me to discuss?

To which I haven't seen any response. I looked for the initial case posting but missed it, then got a bit lazy and figured I'd ask for a restatement than go digging. I have been a bit lazy this game, that's true. Now that you've posted the number, I will go back and look it up, and respond (in a later post, but it's coming).

As for the rest of the paragraph - yes, announcing your suspicions is all well and good. But you can't take them as proof. He was basically saying "Player X is scummy because I think he's scummy." He wasn't saying "I think player X may be scummy." I was going after him for asserting too much based on his opinions only. He was trying to imply that I was saying the list was off limits - what I was saying that you shouldn't focus on JUST the list. Notice that shortly afterwards I did a more in depth look at all of claus's posts - the main effect of which I was less suspicious of Jester for. Going just on the list I'd have been more likely to suspect Jester, because 3/5 in the naughty have been cleared - not much space left for him to put a scum in there. But now I just think that there probably isn't a scum in there, although JP could be possible.

Speaking of which:

Oh, and I’m not the SK, nor do I think it’s likely we have one. We should know for sure tonight, though.

I'd probably accuse you of being the SK for proactively defending yourself from it - but there isn't an SK, so I guess you'll get away with it. If there are two night kills - hang Justin.

[Shteven]

So I went and checked out post 563 - turns out there aren't as many assertions there as I thought there would be.

His attacks, summarized (let me know if I've missed anything):

1) 3 scum issue
2) Was on the nice list
3) Jayhawk was very defensive/quit
4) tried to ignore day 1
5) didn't say much to Claus
6) Doesn't like deep inspection of the nice/naughty list

Responses

1) already answered many times.
2) already answered many times. Initial attack even said this was trivial.
3) Explained way back on day 1, at least as well as I could. Jayhawk seemed to play somewhat emotionally - not that I never do, but he didn't take pressure well. That is a newbie tell and not a scum tell.
4) This claim is a misrepresentation - I was trying to coax content out of MafiaSSK by asking what he thought of today's events. Kuribo interpreted this as a demand that no one can talk about day 1.
5) I didn't have much of a bone to pick with him, frankly. He was only alive for half a day, and I hadn't found much to disagree with him about. Most of his reads were simple and accurate - scum only have to lie about one or two teammates (usually scum throw some attacks on one partner, give or take). I didn't detect it, and still don't think his list was noticably inaccurate. I already mentioned where we disagreed.
6) repeat of 2, mixed with 5. He didn't have to lie about 12 people - most of those reads are simply honest and probably right. With the fact that townies aren't 100% right, comparing two 80% right lists may not really be all that much different.

Frankly I feel that all of these were already covered. Perhaps 5 could have used some more discussion, but it's been mentioned. Nothing here is new. If there are more attacks from posts other than 563, please let me know.

[Shteven]

Sorry for spamming the thread, but I'm having trouble going to sleep leaving some things unanswered

The last few minor points that Jester raised:

1) Jayhawk was scummy - answered when kuribo mentioned it.

2)

Shteven was the champion of the DS lynch (275), and was ranked high on Claus's nice list. What kuribo misses: Shteven immediately agreed with most of Claus's lists (317)... until Claus was found to be scum, at which point, Shteven felt there was limited value to looking at the lists (476). None of these are scum tells in and of themselves,

Correct, they aren't scum tells! (sorry, too easy) Anyways, roughly 100% of the active players here were on the DS lynch as well - he was very scummy looking. Also, I take issue with the way you say "until" - it sounds like I've made some reversal. The next two claims are not a reversal - the list was agreeable because it was mostly true (scum don't have to lie about 12 players) and

very brief

. There's just not much meat there. Read ALL of Claus' posts, as I have.

3)

but his cases against Apyadg and ChronX were extremely weak, leading to a Ythill vote. When that didn't go anywhere and Ythill claimed, suddenly Shteven's suspicions became completely unanchored.

I had been somewhat lazy at the start of the thread (plus I replaced in and had less time) with regards to hunting scum. So Ythill put me to task and asked who my targets where. He was #1, but I don't consider fingering one person to be sufficient, so I went through the thread expressly looking to list two other players. I had to find some two - so I picked the best I could at the time. The cases were weak. When Ythill claimed one-shot vig - I believed him. That basically put me at square zero. I have since talked about nearly everyone in the game - I think that you should discuss everyone. For example: I just called JP a SK possibility (if we have one), so is he now someone I've targeted? I haven't seriously pressed cases on anyone but Ythill and DS. Granted, not the best accuracy, but that's only one mislynch. I believed Ythill by the end of the day.

I'll keep it shorter over the next day or two I promise

[kuribo]

Correct, they aren't scum tells! (sorry, too easy)

Scum tells are subjective, just because you don't see something as one, doesn't mean that someone else won't.

I believed Ythill by the end of the day.

As I've said before, it was clearly in a scum's best interest to believe Ythill so as not to draw attention to themselves.

[Gorgon]

A brief delay before my post #3, which I promise will be up within the hour. But there's a clump of it that doesn't really fit with the rest, and I felt like it made more sense to separate that clump into its own post.

I feel his interaction with Claus was particularily damning.

Could you go into more detail here?

To be honest, no. I no longer feel that this statement of mine was accurate. It was an impression that I had - one that I don't have any more, after looking into things better.

My impression was mostly based on Claus welcoming Apy back into the game, while also coaching him somewhat (Claus' post 6). However, as can be seen in my last post, I have changed my mind my overall impression of the Apy/Claus link after a more careful review of the game.

[Gorgon]

5) I didn't have much of a bone to pick with him, frankly. He was only alive for half a day, and I hadn't found much to disagree with him about. Most of his reads were simple and accurate -

scum only have to lie about one or two teammates (usually scum throw some attacks on one partner, give or take)

. I didn't detect it, and still don't think his list was noticably inaccurate. I already mentioned where we disagreed.

The bolded part is a simplification, IMO. Scum have to play a much more subtle game of deception than just lying about their partners. Ideally, they want to get townies lynched, right? And this of course entails making up bogus cases against them. Well, either that, or following along wih townies' cases against each other, but that sort of behaviour is, of course, scummy. Primarily, what scum have to fake is

uncertaintly

. They know everything, but they must not let on that they do.

Anyway, I'm not sure this has much bearing on the current game. I find your answers to Jesters' and kuribo's case to be pretty credible. I don't find the case to be strong, and can elaborate on this in detail if anyone wants me to.

I am intrigued by Jester's case on Ho1den/Hjallti, though - Jester looks into things that I missed, and they only add to my own suspicions. I can see my vote going there ... there are certainly enough solid points building up against him.

I would, however, like to hear thoughts on what I have to say about ChronX's and Claus' interactions with Xtoxm. Shteven has addressed this somewhat, but no one else has.

[kuribo]

Anyway, I'm not sure this has much bearing on the current game. I find your answers to Jesters' and kuribo's case to be pretty credible. I don't find the case to be strong, and can elaborate on this in detail if anyone wants me to.

Of course I want you to elaborate, don't be lazy, tell us what you really think.

[Shteven]

Correct, they aren't scum tells! (sorry, too easy)

Scum tells are subjective, just because you don't see something as one, doesn't mean that someone else won't.

Interesting how you didn't completely quote the discussion. You know, the part where Jester himself said he didn't consider them scumtells. You are of course free to disagree with me, and to disagree with him, but don't try to make it sound like I he said "These are scumtells" and I went "oh no they aren't!" Also, I'd think that the (sorry, too easy) part would show that it was mostly a joke.

I've been trying to believe you for a while Kuribo, but things like this keep piling up. Suspicion of me isn't a scum tell in itself, but trying to turn everything I've ever said into a scum tell bothers me. I'd recommend being more willing to give players a second chance.

And while it may be somewhat ironic after my previous sentence, I think I've waited long enough, and that it's time I go 'on the record'.

Vote: Kuribo

[kuribo]

Correct, they aren't scum tells! (sorry, too easy)

Scum tells are subjective, just because you don't see something as one, doesn't mean that someone else won't.

Interesting how you didn't completely quote the discussion. You know, the part where Jester himself said he didn't consider them scumtells. You are of course free to disagree with me, and to disagree with him, but don't try to make it sound like I he said "These are scumtells" and I went "oh no they aren't!" Also, I'd think that the (sorry, too easy) part would show that it was mostly a joke.

I've been trying to believe you for a while Kuribo, but things like this keep piling up. Suspicion of me isn't a scum tell in itself, but trying to turn everything I've ever said into a scum tell bothers me. I'd recommend being more willing to give players a second chance.

And while it may be somewhat ironic after my previous sentence, I think I've waited long enough, and that it's time I go 'on the record'.

Vote: Kuribo

Blatant OMGUS. You've said yourself (recently) that despite my suspicion of you, you believe me to be town. So now you claim that you've "waited long enough?" But if you feel I'm town, as you've said, why were you waiting for a chance to vote me?

I'm not "trying to turn everything" you've ever said into a "scumtell." I don't believe in scumtells, more to the fact, you've said and done some scummy things and not explained them to my satisfaction.

[Xtoxm]

Sorry for my recent bout of inactivity...Been kinda limited access recently, and there's been so much heavy content in this game over the last couple days i've only had time to glance.

[Justin Playfair]

Shteven,

I don't see any cohesive case against Kuribo here. I haven't been willing to join in on his or Jester's cases because they don't seem nearly as compelling to me as the ones against XtoXm or Apyadg/Jester (emphasis on Apyadg) but this looks like unmitigated OMGUS, and combined with your OMGUSy reply to Jester it just smells bad. If you hadn't done the same sort of thing to others (including me) when you were being attacked in the first try at the New C9 I think I'd be voting for you now. Instead, I'd really like to see a real, substantive case against Kuribo, if you have one. And I just finished rereading him again, so I'll be curious as to just what it is. Kuribo's attacks against you have been overreaching and aggressive in a way that suggest someone looking for scum tells in everything someone does once that someone has tweaked his suspicions. But so have his attacks on nearly everyone he's gone up against, and you found him town enough until you were their object.

Thank you.

[MafiaSSK]

Blah to hell with it. I can't make long replies at all. So anyways my current reads on everyone are:
Jester- He is trying to prove himself to Town a bit too much as if he's trying to gain our trust. However like the others have said he ahs said some very suspicious things in his long replies. If you want me to bring up an example of his scummish sayings then I shall later on. I'm just too lazy too at the moment.
Kuribo: Kuribo just seems to be side-stepping the attacks that are given to him. However he does try to attack whomever he can. This makes me think that he might be the actual SK around here.
Justin Play
JP: He seems like a cop or another town power role. He seems to be pro-town in all of his posts and doesn't do a single scummy thing.
Xtoxm: He seems like a vanilla townie to me. He really just seems like a normal townie. Sure, he does a few scummish things but he seems quite normal.
Shteven: Shteven is a tough read. He is really middle of the road to me. He seems suspicious in his posts but I can't quite figure out why he does.However he does come up with some great ideas on whose scum and whose not.
Gorgon/Hjallti: I haven't really seen much of them so I can't get a good read on them.
Incognito: Well since we're both confirmed masons I know he's a fellow townie.

[Shteven]

I'm not "trying to turn everything" you've ever said into a "scumtell." I don't believe in scumtells, more to the fact, you've said and done some scummy things and not explained them to my satisfaction.

Did you completely miss where I asked for you to list what you still want an explaination for? Did you happen to not read post 637, where after not getting an answer from you, I answered all of Jester's points? If you'd care to add something to the list, go ahead. I've answered a lot of points against me and I really don't know what you are talking about. It's all of this pushing without saying why that I suspect you're scum.

Justin: It's true that I've been wavering on kuribo somewhat; and I'm not certain he's scum. But day 2 has lasted exactly 1 month now, and I wanted to vote for someone. Perhaps kuribo suffers from just being on my mind the most lately, but so far he's my leading suspect. I just don't see a Jester/Claus scum team after how Claus treated Apyadg. If he's scum, Claus did a fine job distancing the two of them. Which frankly I don't think distancing yourself from someone like Apyadg would be worth the risk for clausScum, but maybe that's just me.

In any case, I'm not suggesting we all speed lynch Kuribo. I just felt it was time to drop a vote. I'll summarize the case again in another post shortly, perhaps that will clarify.

[Shteven]

Thanks for contributing mafiaSSK. Two short things:

1) Sure, we'd love to know why you think Jester's scummy.
2) Try to avoid listing town power roles - it will probably help the mafia more than the town.

For everyone else keeping score I think he's probably more new than scummy, but still, role fishing is a serious problem.