Mini 539: Game over

[kuribo]

Kuribo: Kuribo just seems to be side-stepping the attacks that are given to him. However he does try to attack whomever he can. This makes me think that he might be the actual SK around here.

Unless YOU'RE a serial killer, please provide evidence that there is one.

[kuribo]

It's true that I've been wavering on kuribo somewhat; and I'm not certain he's scum. But day 2 has lasted exactly 1 month now, and I wanted to vote for someone. Perhaps kuribo suffers from just being on my mind the most lately, but so far he's my leading suspect.

You're not certain I'm scum, but the day has lasted too long for your taste, so you want to vote anyone? Just anyone?

[Shteven]

One vote will not end the day. I feel it's a somewhat similar to lurking when one never votes.

Also for the record:

Kuribo: Kuribo just seems to be side-stepping the attacks that are given to him. However he does try to attack whomever he can. This makes me think that he might be the actual SK around here.

I feel this is accurate, which surprised me coming from mafia, no offense. I didn't think he was still paying attention. Except for the part about the SK - I don't think we have one. Evading attention on yourself while continuing to press attacks makes me feel you're just looking for a lynch to happen. But then you project that onto me...The last mod votecount had 3 people voting, one of them being yourself, and then you get all shocked that I'd vote, and am just trying to bring the day to an end? You're at 1 vote. Relax. There are 3 other players who share that distinction with you.

[MafiaSSK]

EBWOP:
Right I forgot to

Vote:Kuribo

[Justin Playfair]

Incognito,

You're absolutely sure that MafiaSSK is your mason partner, right? And please, I know how things can make it hard to post for awhile, but I, for one, would really appreciate your participation today.

Given this recent turn I'm going to do an analysis on Kuribo in isolation, because I'm really not feeling this. I'm sort of about to be lynched in another game, though, so it may not be until the day after tomorrow (though I'll shoot for tomorrow).

[kuribo]

The last mod votecount had 3 people voting, one of them being yourself, and then you get all shocked that I'd vote, and am just trying to bring the day to an end? You're at 1 vote. Relax. There are 3 other players who share that distinction with you.

I wasn't shocked, I thought it was scummy that you're hustling for the day to end and that you never found me suspicious until I was looking into your actions.

Don't try to make it look like I'm jumpy, because I'm not.

[Hjallti]

I just had bad luck, I was doing a PBPA of kuribo and after almost an hour electricty went done and I lost my text.

Try to regather what I had:

mod: can we have a vote count?

As some find it neccessary that I comment on day 1 I will but I don't have anything original to say:

Ythill shouldn't have claimed. Even if he did shoot as a one-shot-vig he was still an asset to town as a good scumhunting townie. It was good that he apparently didn't shoot who he said he would, and he shot right (if he shot Claus).

Disciple Slayer plays so bad in every game I saw from him. He schould have been replaced rather than lynched. It is a pity that we lost a powerrole due to his erratic play. I think the turn out that we start day 2 with 1 scum and 2 townpowers down, means that provided the setup was balanced we are still balanced, with a slight advantage for scum, but that is merely speculation.

PBPA of kuribo: numbers of the singled out list (I paraphrase rather than quote, and I use

italics for comments

)
0. Enters on page 8
1. I won't summarize that post (again) but remark what I think stands a bit out.
(about page 1) He says he hates meta's and announced pressure votes, which in fact relief the pressure by announcing.
(about page 2-4) Ythill is clearly considered scum by kuribo and gets a lot of attention
(about page 5-8) Points out that SSK and Ythill are not consequent in lurker=scumtell remarks

He concludes by calling Yhtill (

NK-ed Vig

), charter (

replaced by Gorgon

) and DS (

lynched doc

) as his top-3 scum, and adds

Ho1den

MafiaSSK.
2. EBWOP Not Ho1den but MafiaSSK
3. reacts on Xtoxm when the latter comments his newbie card
4-5. about vig Ythill (see 7-10.)
6. Is the first to vote DiscipleSlayer, this wagon will get fast 3 extra votes (1 removed) but stall at 3 for a while and then later start again to lynch our Doc.
7-10. He again doubts Ythill.

Here I am getting worried: On one hand he teaches the newbies that you never should claim unless as "a last resort". He points out that it is not done on this site. But... I also think an un counterclaimed, un disproven claim is also not attacked in the early stages, and kuribo keeps on doing it. So while teaching about what you shouldn't do on one side, he actually does do something else that on this site is normally not done. It is hypocryte to say the least.

In post 10 he even clearly states that he would lynch the claimed vig untested.
11-17. Gets in quarrels with both Ythill and Xtoxm which leads to
18. Where he believes Ythill could be town and votes for Xtoxm.
19-24. continuing the quarrels
25-35. Still more quarrels, attacks Xtoxm for briefly stating to happy with a DS-lynch in a way that might be interpreted as I am happy with any lynch.
36-41. Uninteresting
42. Confirms his vote on disciple slayer, while I thought it was on Xtoxm...

---------

I will do day2 if I have more time.

@kuribo, could you clearify why you treath the two statements allow so different (zie comments regarding 7-10)?
"Never claim unless as last resort"
"A not counterclaimed power role should not be lynched"

[kuribo]

@kuribo, could you clearify why you treath the two statements allow so different (zie comments regarding 7-10)?
"Never claim unless as last resort"
"A not counterclaimed power role should not be lynched"

Maybe it's your english, but I don't understand what you're asking me.

[kuribo]

Disciple Slayer plays so bad in every game I saw from him. He schould have been replaced rather than lynched. It is a pity that we lost a powerrole due to his erratic play. I think the turn out that we start day 2 with 1 scum and 2 townpowers down, means that provided the setup was balanced we are still balanced, with a slight advantage for scum, but that is merely speculation.

With you having said that, it's hardly fair to place the blame for the DS bandwagon on me, now is it? We had no way of knowing he was a doc, and further, at the time he was the scummiest suspect. He had been actively lurking, he asked for a Mass Roleclaim on day 1, and was very shady.

In post 10 he even clearly states that he would lynch the claimed vig untested.

Please quote that, I can't seem to find it.

[Xtoxm]

Hey...Not liking the votes on Kuribo. Still think he's town personally. I think Jester has made a good start. Although I can't help but wonder if he hasn't mentioned any suspicion of me because he wants to try and shake me off after what i've said.

I'm starting to think more and more Stheven is scum.

Glad to be backed up on the SK issue. But yeh we wait to see the night.

[Xtoxm]

Thanks for input SSK, please continue to do so. I think you'll find this is quite a good game if you get involved, since we now also have a full squad. Your views are also important as a confirmed townie.

[Hjallti]

kuribo: Where did I BLAME you for starting the DS wagon. I just mentionned it in a post by post analysis.

Here is part of your post 10: (cost me 3 page loads to get this, I don't understand why you didn't look it up yourself: underneath the page you can coose a player whose posts you want to single out on one page)

My gut tells me he's lying, but it also says Disciple Slayer is scummier and we can sort Ythill on Day 2.

I rephrase my question:
Why on earth are you critizing newbies for not following one convention on this site (not claiming unless as 'last resort') while blatantly denying another convention (not attacking a claimed not counterclaimed power role)?

[Hjallti]

EBWOP: the fact that I said that DS should have been replaced rather than lynched was no way intented to call the voters of the lynch scummy.

[Jester]

OK... now to catch up with stuff that's happened since I joined the game. As a result, this post picks up around page 24, post 587.

Shteven says it is odd that Ythill attacked CLaus. Do we know that as a fact? If there is a mafia-role blocker, he would have targetted Ythill, the SK could have targetted Claus meanwhile. What is the likelyhood of this?

Yes, we do know that Ythill verbally attacked Claus, in his post 471, as I mentioned previously. I agree that if there's a mafia RB, that RB would have blocked Ythill. I don't believe that a SK (if any) attacked Claus because of the death method, "shot in the back of the head," I believe. This is a kill method consistent with a vig or the mafia. SK kills are usually quite a bit more dramatic.

The rest of this post, as I mentioned earlier, is pure NFL color commentator. You make

no

attempt to provide your own suspicions, Hjallti, other than snarking about kuribo. You're not outside of this game, commenting in. You're in this game. Start acting like it. Who are you suspicious of, and why? Will you be doing a page 1 recap as you promised? JP calls you on this in his 601, correctly.

Unless...If an SK AND mafia targetted Ythill, and a doc protected, would the overkill still kill him, or would the doc's protection save from both? I assume it's the latter, it makes more sense.

Huh. Interesting theory. Overly complicated for a mini normal, in my view, but still... interesting. And in my experience, a doc protect works against only one kill, not two.

Claus’ treatment of Apyadg is extremely gentle, given his handling of me and Incognito.

Granted, it's self-serving of me to say so, but this struck me as pack-following on Claus's part. Even the post that you quote in your 602 has explicit pack-following right in it. From reading Claus's "attacks" on Apyadg, they were mostly based on your own suspicions, as I've already said. More pack-following, in other words. I can understand what you're saying about Claus going easy on Apyadg, but I don't have a good response to it. I'm not sure why Claus would do that, other than to appear politic to the town.

I fall into this pitfall constantly. I wouldn't say I really drove DS by myself in this game day 1, but I was certainly a significant part of it.

You don't give yourself enough credit. You were the major champion behind DS's lynch, going back to your 271 and 275. The only person who jumped on the bandwagon earlier was kuribo, who was first to vote DS, but I don't think anyone pounded the drum harder. Even JP's case was based more on innuendo than real evidence. Tell me, if you

knew

you had a history of championing day 1 mislynches (as you state in your 275), why did you bang the drum on this one so confidently? The back half second-to-last para of 275

really

sounds to me like something you inserted so you could point back to it after you got a townie killed.

3. Calls MafiaSSK scummy for his joke (= a lie)

This is interesting that you say this. I'm not

quite

a policy lyncher on this issue, but I have a

very

strong tendency toward lynch-all-liars. I find people that joke that they're lying do it as a bread-crumb so if they're caught lying later in the game, they have a fall-back position ("I was joking!"). I'd definitely have a FOS on MafiaSSK right now if Incognito wasn't vouching for him.

1) What do you mean by if you know how to read them? I wouldn't mind some useful tips on how to find scum if you're willing to teach your secrets
2) What then, do you think of me? What tells in particular did you see and is there any confusion I can clear up/questions that need an answer?

I believe I've now answered both of these questions in my 629. In particular, I found your 567 and 570 to be really over-defensive. And see my next post.

Jester, I may have missed this but what are your feelings about Xtoxm?

Doh! No, you didn't miss it. I was going to include some notes about Xtoxm in my post 629 and forgot to. Xtoxm is kind of a puzzle. My initial read on him was newbie-town, particularly after the string of posts from 199 to 205. His join date seemed to confirm that feeling, so I let him slide off my radar for a while. His 270 kind of bothered me, but I forgot about that too (until later, when my suspicions started turning in Shteven's direction). Then, he got that very non sequitur defense from Claus (315), which again quieted my concerns, not so much because of the defense but because of his response to it (316), which struck me as a VERY unlikely thing for one scum to write to another scum.

He stayed off my radar until his 411:

At this point nothing a potential DS replacement says will change my opinion of him.

This struck initially me as something only a newbie scum, and a rather smug newbie scum, would say. He followed it with "This is getting a bit boring waiting. Surely we are ready to lynch DS/Apyadg...Replacements will be ok coming in on day 2 wont they?" (428) which strengthened that impression. Very soon after that was his 438, which also struck me as smug. The weird thing about it was that he hadn't even mentioned Apyadg among his suspects... until his 444 when suddenly, there he was, with no reasons stated. As a matter of fact, the only times he's mentioned Apy was when asking what the case against him was. If anyone directly answered him, I didn't see it. Am I being self-serving again? Probably. But this is isn't just my interpretation, I don't think; I think it's what happened.

So... yeah. Ythill nailed it. Xtoxm's early play led me to believe he was a townie, but his late day one play taints him. He's not in my top three right now, but he could move there.

In my defense neither were here very much until replacements. In a greater sense (and especially clear, I know, if you’ve metaed me) I do tend to suspect everyone, and sometimes (though I don’t think in this game) it diminishes my ability to effectively scum hunt.

I didn't do a meta search, but fair enough. As I said, for now, it's a hail mary long-shot. But I wanted to mention it because of my past experiences with people who suspect

everybody

.

You mention a couple times that you found Ythill’s clearing of Ho1den to be odd. But since we now know Ythill was town why would you characterize it this way as opposed to baseless or perhaps incorrect or something along those lines? Or do you see some possible ulterior motive in Ythill’s statements regarding Ho1den?

Just because Ythill was town doesn't make his opinions about everyone right. No, I don't see anything suspicious about it. It's just that Ythill didn't scrutinize Ho1den's play the way he did a lot of other people's, but instead just accepted what Ho1den said at face value.

634 starts Shteven's defense against my 629 and this post is getting a little long, so I'm gonna hit the pause button here. More from me shortly, either later today or tomorrow morning.

[Hjallti]

Yes, we do know that Ythill verbally attacked Claus, in his post 471, as I mentioned previously. I agree that if there's a mafia RB, that RB would have blocked Ythill. I don't believe that a SK (if any) attacked Claus because of the death method, "shot in the back of the head," I believe. This is a kill method consistent with a vig or the mafia. SK kills are usually quite a bit more dramatic.

Strange you repeat a mistake of Ythill here. The flavor of how a person is killed by the mod might be, but must not be indicative of the person/alignment of the killer.

By the way since I not life in the same nation as you I don't think I am supposed to even guess what a NationalFL color commentator style is. But if you just mean that I remained close with the facts, than I take it as compliment even if it is probably intended the other way around. I did recap day 1 as far as I think it is useful because you were whining before. Justin indeed commented on this but I understood he pointed out that I didn't say much because I don't have much to say about it.

What is your point that I shouldn't look in to kuribo's posts to find suspicions? Do you mean here that I should look away from kuribo? That sounds scummy to me...
I think I know who the next player is who I want to look in.

[Hjallti]

continuation of PBPA of kuribo (to make clear that I don't want to look away from him before looking more closely to Jester)

here day2 starts:
43. studies also Claus' list in which he makes his lightning twice mistake

which is not a scumtell ofcourse, but some argument to be neglected totally

44. adds that he was wrong about Ythill, which was a pretty superfluious remark.
45. agrees he was wrong about Claus and incognito having been scum together
46. Asks Xtoxm if he is a Sk only for raising an alternative for the scenario 'claus was killed Ythill'

everyone thinks they may call a fact here. I just think this is a childish reaction but not a scumtell, based on a general misconception also used before by Ythill, afterwards by Jester, in Illustrated Mafia it was also raised wrongly about the NK of the Vig.

47. misses Xtoxm's proposition to crossreplace
48. agrees he was mistaken
49. votes Xtoxm but states that he (again) won't take the claim for granted
50. clearifies suspicions about the claim
51. Points out that we can't be sure anyone is town because they would have been arguing with ChronX/Claus
52. just a remark
53. Whines about Xtoxm speculating about the setup.

I find it more disturbing that some players take unknown things for granted, than that people keep their minds open for other possibilities.

54. repeats his childish question about Xtoxm being SK.
55-59. annoying remarks between Xtoxm and him.
60. answers to Justin that he doesn't believe the claim of Incognito
61-63. Xtoxm gets annoyed that kuribo answers a question in other fashion than expected.
64-65. votes Shteven for assuming that there 3 scum and putting this as a fact.

The chance we have 3-scum team is bigger than the fact we have no SK. If you are going to vote over that you better self vote for denying the fact there could be an SK.

66. "Xtoxm, you shouldn't take anything about the setup for granted." I think this quote is really strange.

ends this post with a typical logical flaw of the positivists. He finds it suspicious that Shteven doesn't want to focus on the denomination in the list (which was pointed out by other players as well), but from scum-Shteven that would be very convenient so Shteven is scum. This topples down to: Shteven is scummy if he is scum, which is a nulltell

67. Answers Shtevens strange remark about kuribo using the singular partner, rather than partners, while there is for a mafia only one partner left anyway.
68. He assumed that Claus knew they would get Ythill anyway. I don't think Claus could have known that, only hoped that, which was correct due to the doc lynch and the apparent absence of a nurse.
69. reacts to my reaction to the previous, but as far as I am concerned not really convincing. changes would in could along the way though
70. Overdefense when I react I just noted the little flaw in kuribo's remark he starts to reexplain from another position.
71. Reacts to Shtevens simplicication of the arguments made about the list of Claus.
72. Repeats his selfreferential point about being distractive to pin down a possible line -up.

It is pretty tiresome, and indeed distracting, if the whole point you try to make is that the other should stop tunneling on only one possible setup by showing alternatives, and that person instead of admitting it keeps on whining that speculating about setup is counterproductive.

74. Still keeps on tunneling the setup

kuribo as long as we don't know more than we do stop saying that it what is most possible is true is a fact, it is not and it should not be treated like that!

77. kuribo points out that the evidence doesn't support the existence of an SK.

But the whole point I am trying to make is that the evidence doesn't support the NONexistence of an SK whatsoever. I am consider both possibilities you don't want to consider the second, you believe something without evidence I don't. Strange about claims you work the other way around totally.

78. Says that Ythill took risk and we were lucky it went our way.
79. Jester proposes to lynch MafiaSSK anyway to test the claim. kuribo points out that this is a terrible plan.

I agree

80. Makes a contentless joke to Shteven about being scum again.

Clearly kuribo is tunneling on Shteven by now, it might not be a clear scumtell, but it clearly against the interest of town when someone starts to tunnel like this.

82. Is pissed that Shteven votes him for this tunneling
83. Again thinks that someone needs to proof an SK to show that it is not proven that there is no SK.
84-85. Starts to get emotional over this vote. This is defenitely not protown behaviour.
87. Calls me out for blaming him for the DS wagon while I only mentionned it. Again to defensive.

FOS: kuribo

In the last part where he gets some pressure he gets very emotional. Although he has proven not to understand logic very deeply this is still the wrong way of reacting to pressure.

[kuribo]

I rephrase my question:
Why on earth are you critizing newbies for not following one convention on this site (not claiming unless as 'last resort') while blatantly denying another convention (not attacking a claimed not counterclaimed power role)?

"Sort him on Day 2" implies that come day 2, the truth or falsehood of his alignment would be known and we could sort it out.

I am free to follow whichever conventions I please--- Just because someone claims to be something and no one else has counterclaimed does not mean I have to believe it just because that's the "way things are done."

[kuribo]

Overly complicated for a mini normal, in my view, but still... interesting. And in my experience, a doc protect works against only one kill, not two.

Plus the doc died before Ythill and it's highly unlikely that we have another one.

[Incognito]

Coming soon: Content!

[Hjallti]

"Sort him on Day 2" implies that come day 2, the truth or falsehood of his alignment would be known and we could sort it out.

Given the number of different setup for 12 player games I have seen and played on this site this would have been unlikely, but okay I understand your point here, and consider to be corrected. That is the main reason I paraphrase rather than quote.

Two docs is not likely but a doc/nurse combination is used more than once on this site. Probably we don't have a nurse because we Ythill died.

[Gorgon]

Hjallti - NFL refers to National Football League; the common stereotype of an NFL commentator is of someone who mostly only describes exactly what is going on.

Anyway, kuribo wanted me to explain why I don't quite buy the case against Shteven. Perhaps it's just as well as I do this, even though it will take a bit of time to collect my thoughts and put them down coherently ...

Let's begin with kuribo's Post 563. Here is what he brings up about Shteven:

He was on Claus' "Nice" list, which while trivial, bears noting.

Indeed it is trivial. Although I agree that there is most likely at least one scum on Claus' Nice list, this fact says nothing about who it may be, by itself.

His predecessor, Jayhawk, got very defensive and even quit while under pressure.

At most a slight scumtell, IMO. This has been discussed quite a bit over the course of this game, and it appears I'm not the only one who has this opinion.

Shteven was one of the early driving forces behind the DS-lurker lynch.

A fair point. Advocating lurker lynches is scummy, IMO. Shteven did address this point, though - and not in an unreasonable manner.

Shteven tried to gloss over Day 1 interactions by saying:

How about, instead, you tell us what you think of day 2 events?

This is taken completely out of context. From what I see, this is addressed to SSK, who said:

I should have been replaced by now, but luckily our mod is a lazy mod. =D

So,

from the context

, Shteven was merely encouraging SSK to comment on what had happened so far. To say that this was an attempt to "Gloss over day 1 events" is an overstatement, to say the least.

Then, as Xtoxm (who I've disagreed vehemently on many occasions with) pointed out, Shteven and Claus didn't seem to interact with one another--- and for that matter, I've noticed that when they did, it was a bit "in passing:"

@Stephen
About Justin:
It is not the length of his posts. It is the fact that I can't really feel that he is attacking anyone (other than his earlier Ythill attacks). Reading him in this game (don't wanna read your link now), I feel I'm listening to a politician about non-popular matters.

That right there seems like he's saying, "I should respond, but I don't want to draw a possible link between us."

Meh. I don't see this the same way as kuribo does. It's reaching. Claus already 'draws the link' by responding. Why would he draw a bigger link by going into detail? It doesn't make much sense to me.

Then, there's the post following Claus' NK:

As for looking over the list, it's a good idea, but I'd go about it a slightly different way. Scum usually hinge their bets on such lists; so it's likely the the other scum are spread out on the list. Focusing on just the nice or just the naughty won't help much.

Gee, I wonder why we should disregard his Naughty/Nice designations? Could it be because he made a mistake in listing his scum partner as nice? Maybe, maybe not.

Indeed. Maybe, maybe not. I feel Shteven's responses to this are quite adequate, and not over-defensive. Shteven's initial premise, that it's likely that the scum are spread on the list, is valid, regardless of whether he's scum or town. Note that he didn't even dismiss the possibility that there might be scum on the 'Nice' list.

Coming up: Jester's points against Shteven.

[Nanosauromo]

Vote Count

Kuribo - 2 (Shteven, MafiaSSK)
Shteven - 2 (kuribo, Jester)
Xtoxm - 1 (Incognito)
Jester - 1 (Xtoxm)

Not voting: - 3 (Gorgon, Hjallti, Justin Playfair)

9 alive, 5 to lynch.

[Gorgon]

Now, onto Jester, in post 629 ...

Northjayhawk got on a very early Xtoxm band-wagon, apparently randomly (16). Then, when questioned on it, he suddenly said it was a serious vote and went out of his way to justify it (39).

I don't see anyone 'questioning' NJH's vote. Unless you mean Ythill's 19, which hardly qualifies - in fact, in post 97, NJH explicitly states that he never replied to Ythill's 19, and explains that his comment was not prompted by any pressure. Ythill did place pressure in post 84, to which NJH's 97 is a reply. I believe that all in all, this is a perfectly reasonable reply.

Then, when he was pressured on this, he tried to defend himself (101), then flipped this post into a weird little justification against "arguing for innocence", which made no sense to me.

'Tried to defend himself' is a loaded way of putting it. Do you mean to say that he did a poor job of it? How so? Also, his "arguing for innocense" point was a restatement of a question he already asked in post 97, and which Ythill did not answer to his satisfaction. It is plain to me to see why town-NJH could be pissed off at this point; he gets accused of not answering questions, while not really getting his own question answered.

Regarding his point, I believe it's plain to see, even though everyone might not agree with it:

Suppose every one of us started throwing around fingers of innocence and arguements for town along with FoS and votes? Wouldnt that just be a huge blinking neon sign to the scum saying "lynch [Later corrected to

kill

] these people to win"?

Please let me know if this line of thought is unclear to you.

Ythill (correctly) called him out on it, and his response was an over-reaction to say the least (135). I really feel like NJH felt like he was digging himself into a hole, and abandoned the game rather than try to defend his questionable actions.

Again, what did Ythill call NJH out on? Ythill and NJH's argument dissolved into Ythill accusing NJH of having lied about his playstyle, after which NJH quit the game. Scum or town, NJH had reason to be even more pissed over all this. Anyway, I encourage people to read this spat for themselves. I for one fail to see the uberscumminess in it.

What kuribo misses: Shteven immediately agreed with most of Claus's lists (317)... until Claus was found to be scum, at which point, Shteven felt there was limited value to looking at the lists (476).

Again, Shteven did disagree on some things on Claus' list .. yadayadayada. Also, " Shteven felt there was limited value to looking at the lists" is an oversimplification. Again, Shteven was commenting on Incognito's idea of looking at the categories Claus placed people into, warning that it was likely that the scum were spread throughout these categories. By no means did Shteven imply that there was 'limited value' in the lists. Also, why would you not immediately look at something differently than before when you discover that it was written by scum?

Bah ... Jester and kuribo have other points, but I'm tired now. Perhaps I can offer more later, but hopefully this is sufficient.

Bottom line is ... my gut tells me Shteven is more likely to be town than not. And this analysis on Jester's attacks on Shteven doesn't win Jester many favours with me. To be honest, kuribo's attacks look much more genuine.

[Shteven]

I fall into this pitfall constantly. I wouldn't say I really drove DS by myself in this game day 1, but I was certainly a significant part of it.

You don't give yourself enough credit. You were the major champion behind DS's lynch, going back to your 271 and 275. The only person who jumped on the bandwagon earlier was kuribo, who was first to vote DS, but I don't think anyone pounded the drum harder. Even JP's case was based more on innuendo than real evidence. Tell me, if you knew you had a history of championing day 1 mislynches (as you state in your 275), why did you bang the drum on this one so confidently? The back half second-to-last para of 275 really sounds to me like something you inserted so you could point back to it after you got a townie killed.

I've been hesitating to do this because I really don't like meta attacks, and meta defenses are only slightly worse. I've stated this in past games. And I'd sure as hell give me flak for doing this now. But this game and newbie 539 are just too similar for me to not use it.

In newbie 539, I:
Aggressively pushed for a day 1 lynch which ended up being a townie.
Continued to push for lynches on day 2.
OMGUS voted noah in LyLo (after FOSing right out of the gates crapor)...They ended up being the actual scum team, but hey. It was still OMGUS on noah.

And I was the cop. I had claimed on day 2 and went uncountered for a long time. Eventually a scum player realized I had a shot of convincing people, and instead counterclaimed me and they proceeded to lynch me pretty fast. The whole game's only 11 pages (12 is postgame). If anyone here reads it all, let me know.

Newbie 539

The funny thing about it was my main attacker was the town player I had investigated as innocent. So despite constantly bickering back and forth, I knew he was on my side.

This probably doesn't excuse my behavior of championing lynches and being wrong constantly, but it does show it's not proof of my being a scum role. I'm trying to be more cautious here day 2, although I'm not sure how effective that's been so far.

Coming soon: Content!

Really looking forward to this. As someone I am willing to trust (as a cleared mason), I would appreciate your thoughts on my play, if I'm correcting the problems from newbie 539 or not

[kuribo]

Newbie games are worthless as meta.