Mini 533: Something wicked this way comes! Game over!

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

My read at this point is that zeek thought miller was significantly more common than it actually is, and is scrambling to defend his shaky claim.

That said, I find it sketchy that both skruffs and michael are talking as if its known that there is an SK. There's really no evidence to support that, unless, of course, you are the sk or scum and targeted someone who wasn't yvonne, like zeek said.

Vote Count for page 23, Day 2

Shaka!!

- 1 (OhGodMyLife)

Soupfly

- 1 (geraintim)

Skruffs

- 3 (MichelSableHeart, ZeekLTK, Petunho)

MichelSableHeart

- 2 (soupfly, Skruffs)

ZeekLTK

- 2 (shaka!!, TheSweatPantsNinja)

Not Voting

- 1 (Ting =))

6 will lynch.

[ting =)]

I don't have time to adress everything now so I'll just defend Quickben for now. I'm basing my defence on Zeek's post in 251. He first attacked Quickben in 249, but his point then was repeated in 251, so I'm not going to adress it. If anyone wants me to answer to anything else, tell me which post the question is. I'll try, but note that I'm not quickben. I can only state what I think of the situation - not what quickben was thinking, or his reasons for certain actions.

I'll be quoting certain parts of post 251, which I think are the main points of Zeek's arguments. It'll help if you read it first, and then keep it in a seperate tab, just to make sure I'm not taking things out of context.
----------------------
#1:Not an argument.

#2:

I can't think of any reasons for a townie to avoid a game, but a mafia can easily avoid suspicion by not posting much.

QuickBen decides it would be to his benefit (for whatever reason) to just stay away from the conversation....his only other post on Day 1 had absolutely nothing to do with anything, it was more along the lines of a "make a post to appear active but don't actually contribute."

I'm 100% confident that QuickBen is mafia.

In summary - Scum will lurk. QuickBen was lurking. Therefore, QuickBen is scum.
This is a horrible argument. It's founded on the premise that 'all lurkers are scum'. I'm sure if you try and look at other games, you can find numerous cases of people lurking, but not being scum - making this an argument based on a faulty premise.

#3:

...he hasn't posted anything relevant in 15 days... he has made SEVERAL posts in all of his other games during this 15 day period of inactivity in our game).

Then a few hours after posting that, he votes for me (citing the miller claim and hammer). He completely ignores the case against soupfly that is also being debated at the time AND completely ignores all of the events from Day 1. He doesn't say a word about soupfly's L-1 vote OR any of DS's actions...

And don't you think any townies who have been gone for a long time would want to try to address everything that has happened to make sure they are caught up?

Instead QuickBen just sees that there is a bandwagon against a townie and just goes back to find a few reasons in order to push the townie a little closer to being lynched and make his vote *appear* justified.

The unformatted text is the groundwork for Zeek's arguments. They are all factual, I'm not going to argue with them.

This point goes wrong in the bolded and italicized portion - the bolded portion is once again a faulty premise. The italicized portion is an interpretation of QuickBen's actions based on the premise.

First off Zeek, no they wouldn't try and adress everything. Case in point being myself and Shaka. After reading through everything, the player which stood out the most is YOU. I've hinted suspicions at other players, but my posts mainly were about YOU because your actions have stood out. Same principle like when you see a red stain on a white sheet and say, 'hey there's a red stain'. It's not that you're ignoring the existence of the white sheet, you can see it, but you're more focused on the red stain.

Anyone reading through the whole thing will zero in on you, and it's no surprise that QuickBen, after rereading everything, went for you. Also, the italicized bit runs on the assumption that you're a townie. Without that assumption, it's just QuickBen looking for reasons to justify a vote against a person exhibiting suspicious behaviour. Nothing wrong with that.

#4:

QuickBen goes inactive yet again for numerous days (10 more days now - and 15 more posts in games that aren't ours).

During this time the bandwagon against me has stopped, so I guess he decides that he needs to add a little fuel to the fire

and makes a post questioning the "breadcrumb".

Michel responds, giving a good answer. QuickBen makes a half-hearted attempt to argue Sabel's response when OhGodMyLife chimes in.

Basically this whole exchange feels like, to me, QuickBen sees the bandwagon is grinding to a halt so he's trying to get it going again. He tries to take a point used and say "this could benefit scum too". Someone says "not really because [...]" QuickBen says "yeah but..." and then another person says "no... the first person was right, [...]".

QuickBen seems to give up after this and hasn't really posted since, though he's still left his vote on me, hopeful that either it'll swing back on me somehow or we'll all forget about him again. He still hasn't commented about ANYONE else on Day 2 here.

In fact, he hasn't even said anything about ANYONE other than me the entire game other than his vote for Sabel on Day 1 which was an OMGUS vote.

He's playing exactly like a mafia would. He's not trying to catch scum, he's just trying to cover his tracks, stay out of sight/out of mind, and do just enough to push the town in the wrong direction.

To begin, there's nothing wrong with pushing a bandwagon which you genuinely find suspicious. In fact, you're pushing for the QuickBen wagon despite it having died down already. Does that make you scum? Hardly. All it shows is that you really believe QuickBen is scum. (Although, why you unvoted him if you really did think he's guaranteed scum is beyond me)

On the bolded bit - that's entirely subject to interpretation. For instance if I assume that you're town, then yes, you're right, QuickBen was not trying to catch scum. If I assume you're scum though, then your argument is wrong because, no, QuickBen was trying to catch scum.

The 'stay out of sight/out of mind' is a rehash of your argument against him based on lurking. I don't deny that he's lurking, but I maintain that it's not a valid scum tell. At least, not one that would make me '100% sure xxxx is scum.'

'... do just enough to push the town in the wrong direction.' Again, only true if we assume that you're obviously a townie.


In short: You seem upset that QuickBen has focused all his attention on you and have attacked him for every reason you could find, like lurking, and you've looked at all his actions from the viewpoint that, 'I am town, he is attacking me, therefore he is scum' - which is a very tinted viewpoint to use when looking at a game.

In fact, it's implied in your post that since he's attacking you and no one else he must be scum, making that bit no more than an omgus reply. This has the implication that in order for QuickBen to clear himself in your eyes, he must 1)stop attacking you. 2)attack someone else. To be fair, this paragraph is no more than my interpretation of zeek's actions. I won't hold it against anyone if they form a different conclusion from zeek's actions.

[ting =)]

Also, I know I've said that I'll post on what I think of everyone else, and make a proper attack against the people I find suspicious, but I can't seem to find the time to dig through all those pages.

[ZeekLTK]

First off Zeek, no they wouldn't try and adress everything. Case in point being myself and Shaka. After reading through everything, the player which stood out the most is YOU. I've hinted suspicions at other players, but my posts mainly were about YOU because your actions have stood out.

Same principle like when you see a red stain on a white sheet and say, 'hey there's a red stain'.

It's not that you're ignoring the existence of the white sheet, you can see it, but you're more focused on the red stain.

Well, I'd say this situation is more like there is a white sheet with a red stain, a blue stain, a green stain, and an orange stain... and you see it and say 'hey there's a red stain'. Well, that would make me wonder why you'd only point out the red stain and not the others.

To begin, there's nothing wrong with pushing a bandwagon which you genuinely find suspicious. In fact, you're pushing for the QuickBen wagon despite it having died down already. Does that make you scum? Hardly. All it shows is that you really believe QuickBen is scum.

(Although, why you unvoted him if you really did think he's guaranteed scum is beyond me)

On the bolded bit - that's entirely subject to interpretation.

For instance if I assume that you're town, then yes, you're right, QuickBen was not trying to catch scum.

If I assume you're scum though, then your argument is wrong because, no, QuickBen was trying to catch scum.

The 'stay out of sight/out of mind' is a rehash of your argument against him based on lurking. I don't deny that he's lurking, but I maintain that it's not a valid scum tell. At least, not one that would make me '100% sure xxxx is scum.'

'... do just enough to push the town in the wrong direction.'

Again, only true if we assume that you're obviously a townie.

So basically when it's proven that I am a townie then we'll know QuickBen was scum? Because I know I am town, so your argument has hardly convinced me to change my mind on QuickBen when you say my argument "is only true if you are town" and I already know that I am town...

For the other bolded (first one), I unvoted because:

a) soupfly, the other player I was highly suspicious of, quickly changed his vote to QuickBen shortly after I did, so I was wondering if maybe I was wrong and soupfly was scum just trying to get another bandwagon going - not caring if it was against townie me or townie QuickBen.

b) I'm much more confident that Skruffs is mafia at this point, and he is probably more dangerous to the town as well (especially with his bets that try to put the town in a position to lose), so I feel my vote is better placed on him.

[ZeekLTK]

My read at this point is that zeek thought miller was significantly more common than it actually is, and is scrambling to defend his shaky claim.

That said, I find it sketchy that both skruffs and michael are talking as if its known that there is an SK. There's really no evidence to support that, unless, of course, you are the sk or scum and targeted someone who wasn't yvonne, like zeek said.

I think you think the miller role is significantly more uncommon than it actually is - because it's been in 100% of the minis I've played in.

Also I'm wondering how you could read the DS situation so "correctly" and yet read this situation so wrong. Maybe because you are scum and it benefited you to try tell us that DS was town (because you knew he would get lynched anyways), but now it benefits you to try to convince everyone that I'm scum (to try to get me mislynched)?

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Well, it obviously benefits me if you're scum. Conveniently enough, I happen to think you're scum.

And don't fucking put correctly in quotes. Obviously, we won't be able to tell until after the game whether or not I had extra information, but at least give me the credit of having been accurate.

[ting =)]

Zeek, you've just admitted that:
1) You are not 100% sure QuickBen was scum.
2) Your argument on QuickBen is based on your belief of being a townie.

These two are both things that indicate that your suspicions on QuickBen are in no way justified, to me anyway, me not knowing for sure that you're town.

Two things I want to adress from your reply:

So basically when it's proven that I am a townie then we'll know QuickBen was scum?

No. If you are proven to be a townie, all it'll show is that QuickBen was wrong in his suspicions. It doesn't follow that, 'A is a townie. B attacked A. Anyone attacking a townie is scum. Therefore B is scum.' There's a proper term for that kind of fallacy, but I can't remember.

Even good players sometimes suspect the wrong people - if you'll call QuickBen scum on the basis that he attacked you, you might as well call nearly everyone else in this thread scum, since most of the players here have mentioned suspicions of you at one time or another.

Well, that would make me wonder why you'd only point out the red stain and not the others.

Your case stands out the most. You hammered the mislynch, you're the only player whose claimed, you made a threat to hammer which can be interpreted in a trillion ways, you've claimed an unfounded belief in a self-lynching jester, you're easily one of the most vocal players... Long story short, it's hard not to miss you. That on it's own doesn't make you scummy though, just noticable.

To make a better analogy, it's like a Buggati Veyron crashing into a beat up Toyota Corolla. Sure, they're both severely messed up, but everyone will talk about the messed up Bugatti more than they'll talk about the messed up Toyota.

Lastly - please stop saying how you're town. It's not that I've made up my mind not to believe you, it's just that you must have said it a trillion times in this game already. Saying something over and over won't make it sound any more true to everyone hearing it. You're more likely to annoy people than convince them.

Also, could you please stop making arguments that run on the basis of you being town? We get how it seems altogether right and logical to you, but it won't look that way to anyone else since we have no way to guarantee that you're town. Just a suggestion.

[ZeekLTK]

And don't fucking put correctly in quotes. Obviously, we won't be able to tell until after the game whether or not I had extra information, but at least give me the credit of having been accurate.

Okay I apologize for that, I put the quotes around the wrong word. I should have put it around "read", because - as you said - we won't know whether you did actually read the situation correctly or if you already knew DS was town when it was happening (in which case you didn't "read" the situation, you were just telling us what you already knew).

-----

Anyways, I'd like to go back and just look at facts - voting records.

Here is a summary of the entire game's votes, followed by each player's.

*Day 1*

QuickBen: DS (L-6)
DS: QuickBen (L-6)
OGML: Petunho (L-6)
Zeek: soupfly (L-6)
*Official Start*
Petunho: OGML (L-6)
Yvonne: Zeek (L-6)
Michel: QuickBen (L-5)
DS: Michel (L-6)
QuickBen: Michel (L-5)
Zeek: DS (L-6)
DS: Zeek (L-5)
OGML: DS (L-5)
Petunho: *Unvotes* OGML (L-7)
geraintm: Zeek (L-4)
Yvonne: soupfly (L-6)
Lowell: Zeek (L-4)

soupfly: DS (L-4)
Yvonne: TSPN (L-6) [actually voted gispy]
DS: soupfly (L-6)
Michel: DS (L-3)
OGML: *unvote* DS (L-4)
soupfly: OGML (L-6)
Lowell: DS (L-4)
Zeek: Lowell (L-6)
TSPN: Lowell (L-5)

SensFan: DS (L-4)
TSPN: SensFan (L-6)
OGML: DS (L-3)
geraintm: DS (L-2)
soupfly: DS (L-1)
Zeek: DS (*HAMMER*)

--------

*Day 2*

Zeek: soupfly (L-5)
soupfly: Zeek (L-5)
Lowell: TSPN (L-5)
TSPN: Zeek (L-4)
Michel: Lowell (L-5)
OGML: soupfly (L-4)
QuickBen: Zeek (L-3)
SensFan: Zeek (L-2)
Petunho: soupfly (L-3)

Michel: soupfly (L-2)
Michel: Lowell (L-5)
soupfly: Petunho (L-5)
TSPN: Lowell (L-4)
OGML: geraintm (L-5)
soupfly: *unvote* Petunho (L-6)
Lowell: *unvote* TSPN (L-6)
OGML: Lowell (L-3)
Lowell: OGML (L-5)
Zeek: QuickBen (L-5)
soupfly: QuickBen (L-4)
Petunho: QuickBen (L-3)

geraintm: OGML (L-4)
*Skruffs joins*

Zeek: soupfly (L-5)
soupfly: *unvote* QuickBen (L-5)

Michel: Skruffs (L-5)
soupfly: QuickBen (L-4)
Zeek: Skruffs (L-4)
Skruffs: Michel (L-5)
geraintm: soupfly (L-5)
Lowell: Skruffs (L-3)
soupfly: Michel (L-4)
Petunho: Skruffs (L-2)
Skruffs: Michel (already had his vote on him)

*ting replaces QuickBen; Shaka replaces Lowell*

ting: *unvote* Zeek (L-6)
Shaka: *unvote* Skruffs (L-3)
Shaka: Zeek (L-5)
geraintm: soupfly (mod never changed it before)
TSPN: Zeek (L-4)

--------------------------------
*In order of player list on first page*

geraintm

Zeek, L-4
DS, L-2
-
OGML, L-4
soupfly, L-5

MichelSableheart

QuickBen, L-5
DS, L-3
-
Lowell, L-5
soupfly, L-2
Lowell, L-5
Skruffs, L-5

OhGodMyLife

Petunho, L-6
DS, L-5
DS, L-3
-
soupfly, L-4
geraintm, L-5
Lowell, L-3

Petunho

OGML, L-6
-
soupfly, L-3
QuickBen, L-3
Skruffs, L-2

Shaka!! (Replaces Lowell)

Zeek, L-4
DS, L-4
-
TSPN, L-5
OGML, L-5
Skruffs, L-3
Zeek, L-5

Skruffs (Replaces SensFan)

DS, L-4
-
Zeek, L-2
Michel, L-5

soupfly

DS, L-4
OGML, L-6
DS, L-1
-
Zeek, L-5
Petunho, L-5
QuickBen, L-4
QuickBen, L-4
Michel, L-4

TheSweatpantsNinja

Lowell, L-5
SensFan, L-6
-
Zeek, L-4
Lowell, L-4
Zeek, L-4

ting =) (Replaces QuickBen)

DS, L-6
Michel, L-5
-
Zeek, L-3

ZeekLTK

soupfly, L-6
DS, L-6
Lowell, L-6
DS, Hammer
-
soupfly, L-5
QuickBen, L-5
soupfly, L-5
Skruffs, L-4

[ZeekLTK]

Honestly, (and surprisingly) I think Petunho has the worst voting record... thoughts?

[ting =)]

Wow.. you read my mind. I had a half finished version of that. I was up till page 9 when I decided I was too lazy to read through everything.

Worst is subjective. It depends on your criteria for worst voting record. Most hopping? Greatest number of near hammer votes? Most votes cast? Greatest number of people voted for?

My criteria for worst is whoever was on most of the wagons. I don't have time to go through the whole thing now, I'll post my thoughts on it later.

[Skruffs]

If you want to assume that all votes were strategical instead of opinion-based, ie swayed by the current discussion, then I think the most interesting trend happens here:
geraintm: Zeek (L-4)
Yvonne: soupfly (L-6)
Lowell: Zeek (L-4)
(???) <- this spot missing for some reason
soupfly: DS (L-4)
Yvonne: TSPN (L-6) [actually voted gispy]
DS: soupfly (L-6)
Michel: DS (L-3)

Zeek is at -5 after yvonne moves to someone else, lowell puts zeek at -4, and then two people move to DS, putting him past zeek and to -3.

But analyzing vote counts without also looking at what people were sayign is like looking at words in a book without reading it. It has no context.



For the record, I brought UP the mode of death of n1's kill and michel immediately suggested i was the sk, and that's when he suggested he knew the mafia didn't kill yvonne last night. I am assumign that the kill was therefore an SK kill, because I trust michel and zeek to make reliable scum-slips in telling me the size, decisions, andpartners involvd in the mafia group.

(Thanks guys btw)

[Skruffs]

Also, Zeek:

In one of your recent posts you are accusing me of only being able to 'know' that there is an SK if I was an sk or in the mafia and know they didn't target yvonne:

I HAVE SAID THIS EXACT SAME THING AGAINST MICHEL AND YOU HAVE IGNORED IT!!


so why are you suddenly accusing *ME* of knowing that, when Michel is the one who camea up with those ideas himself???


ANd if only the mafia know who the mafia are why are you saying that you are a confirmed townie when the only people who could possibly know you are a townie are yourself and the mod??? you are continuously doing everything you attack other people are doing, and it's getting very frustrating. Your incessant attempst to get ANYONE lynched except michel, ANYONE but michel, is such a blatant tell in and of itself... any normal townie would at least CONSIDER that michel was buddying up to them to look better when you turn up town, but you and michel have BOTH stated you think the other is town and basically REFUSE to examine each other - now you are takign points i have made against michel, ignored the case on michel and are trying to say in turn that because i made those posts that I am the one who made the original tells in the first place.... I am so frustrated with you right now I want to pull my hair out. I have to hope you are scum because there is

no way[/] you can stay alive near the end of the game,

as town

, and expect for a win. You are ACTIVELY helping scum right now.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

No problem, zeek. I don't expect to be cleared for being right on DS. And thanks for doing all that legwork. Much appreciated. I still think you're scum, but, y'know, thanks anyway.

The one thing that does really jump out at me is petunho's record. He's probably been the single most under-the-radar player this game, and the fact that he's hopped on every wagon (except zeek and ds, curiously) is worth noting.

[OhGodMyLife]

Skruffs, I'd like to know what you think makes michel a better lynch than zeek?

[Skruffs]

IT varies HOW much better he is from day to day; Basically Michel is playing the game the EXACT same way as Gorgon did in Mini 499; polite, astute, but not town enough to prevent mislynches. Well he was until I ruffeld his feathers.

Zeek is playing the way Cicero did in Mini 499 - and in Mini 499, Gorgon buddied up hardcore to Cicero, as did Pwayne, and they were both scum.

I understand that players play differently, and games are varied in setups and such not, but the way they are playing is SO similar that it is surreal, and I got *just* as much flack in Mini 499 as I did in this game. Of course, in Mini 499, I was a vigilante, and I'm not anything like that in this game, BUT, even so, BECAUSE I'm without power means I *AM* more expendable, so I have *LESS* of a problem 'going out there' and calling out things EXACTLY the way I see it, even if there ARE flaws.

[ting =)]

Michel, why do you think Zeek is town? Do you believe his miller claim?
Zeek, why do you think Michel is town? You're the person defending him most. Is it because he's been defending you?

Skruffs, why

did

you bring up the whole poison thing anyway?

[MichelSableheart]

Sorry for being away again; I have been much more busier then I expected to be. My apologies if the scope of this post is rather limited. I've made quite a long post here, but still have a lot of catching up to do.

I still have no idea what the difference is because I had only played one themed mini before this (and 0 normals) and I have had the exact same role (which I thought was an "uncommon role") in both. I mean honestly, as far as I can tell, the only difference I notice is that there is flavor in a theme and no flavor in a normal. For example in that themed game I was "Ginger Cartman" while here I'm just a regular "miller". Other than that, I'm not convinced that anything else is different as I've only seen 3 roles total in this game (a vanilla townie, a cop, and my own role - miller). There was a cop and a miller in the themed game, so basically it's 2/3 for "same roles" in each game. How should I know there won't be insane cops, roleblockers, or even a jester in this one too?

Zeek, go read the definition of a normal game on the wiki. All mini normals are normal games, and follow the rules laid out in that article.

Also, what you must realize, is that the suspicions against you are completely justified. Your play at the end of day 1 was horrible. Througout day 2, you have been using arguments that completely ignore the possibility 'I am scum trying to be tricky'. And you have been OMGUS attacking everyone who attacked you. I believe you are horribly inexperienced town, but it is absolutely no surprise that some other players think you're scum.

Michel, why do you think Zeek is town? Do you believe his miller claim?

First, Zeek could only make his post about there being no vanilla townies if he was planning a miller claim all along, because I don't think he could have justified his belief with any other role.

Of course, scum can plan a miller claim in the hope that it will be believed. However, that is not a likely course of action. There is a very significant chance that the other players won't believe you, and even if you are believed, people may want to lynch you 'just to be sure'. Especially a vig kill (if there is one in the game) is likely to happen. On the other hand, for a pro-town miller, claiming miller early is a logical course of action.

To summarize my thoughts thus far: It is possible that Zeek is scum trying to be tricky, but it's more likely that Zeek is indeed a miller.


Next up is Zeek's belief in the complete absence of townies. Suppose that Zeek knows that normal games always have townies, suppose that Zeek did read the vanilla townie pm in the first post, and that Zeek knows the difference between a mini theme and a mini normal. Then Zeek would know that noone is going to belief him when he makes his claim that there are likely no vanilla townies, and Zeek would know that he would come under a lot of scrutiny for suggesting it. If any of us had played better during day 1, we would have torpedoed his suggestion. Zeek, as scum, knowing all this, would never believe that the suggestion of 'no vanilla townies' could lead to a mislynch on DS.

This leads me to believe that Zeek honestly thought there were no vanilla townies. And when is the conclusion 'there are no vanilla townies in this setup' more logical: when you have the exact same role as in a previous game where there were no vanilla townies, or when you are generic mafia and someone who isn't in the mafia claims vanilla townie?

Again, I believe that the suggestion that there are no vanilla townies is much more likely to be made by a miller then by scum.


The third point I would like to adress is Zeek's belief that DS was a self-lynching jester. Suppose that Zeek is scum trying to manipulate the town there into allowing him to do exactly what he did. Zeek makes the self lynching jester suggestion for the first time in post #110. At that time, DS was at L-4. Do you believe that, at that point in time, Zeek scum who knows a self-lynching jester is extremely unlikely would anticipate that:
- Noone would call him out on the unlikelyness of a self-lynching jester,
- DS would be at L-2 soon and
- when Zeek made the announcement that he would hammer at L-1, someone else would be stupid enough to put on the L-1 vote?

A much more logical explanation for Zeeks behaviour is that he indeed believed there was a self-lynching jester (not knowing how extremely unlikely that is). And I don't think there is any reason to believe that scum is more likely to believe in a self-lynching jester then a town miller is.


What ultimately made me belief Zeek is pro-town though, is the way SensFan and QuickBen jumped on the bandwagon. They gave no signs whatsoever of considering Zeek's explanations. Instead, their arguments to me felt something like 'he behaved strangely! He must be scum!'. Only the previous day, DS had been mislynched on very similar arguments. I would have expected pro-town players to be a lot more careful after that. Their attack on Zeek felt extremely like scum pushing for a mislynch.


Some replies to Shaka!!'s posts on the subject.

If someone claims vanilla townie, gets investigated and comes up guilty, chances are they are going to be lynched. It is safer to claim vanilla during the day but by night the Miller is much safer.

What were the chances he was going to be investigated when he made the statement 'I believe there are no vanilla townies in this game'? True, when he ultimately claimed miller, it was pretty likely he was going to be investigated, but when he made his statement, all arguments from his post #146 apply.

According to the circumstances surrounding his claim, an early fake claim would help him push his lynch. So he would have reasons as scum to fake his claim early on.

If Zeek is mafia, he would have known that DS was not mafia, and therefore likely speaking the truth. Where there's one townie, there are more. Who was he hoping to convince?

Fake counter claiming sets you up as a target as well, with fake counter claiming you have to put yourself up against another claim and hope that the town believes you. Fake claiming Miller would still be safer and rather beneficial because his real role can't be figured out until he is lynched.

True, but sometimes fake counterclaiming is the only way the mafia can win the game. By claiming miller early, he has taken away the possibility completely.

But that game was a themed game. And on the first page of the game the mod left a quote of a vanilla townies role. Do you think it is likely that Zeek did not realize the difference between a normal and a themed game and that there was a vanilla townies role pm quoted on the first page?

Considering Zeek's experience (2 newbies, 1 mini theme), and considering how unexperienced his behaviour seems to be (OMGUSing, WIFOM everywhere), I think it is quite likely that Zeek has absolutely no idea whatsoever of what to expect from a normal game.

[Skruffs]

Okay:
DS is dead and town, as is Yvonne. Almonds = Poison (Cyanide), which is further confirmed by the aparent lack of trauma to her body.

What does Zeek do? He immediately talks abotu DS Some more.
"Oh, well, see after I Spent all that time convincing everyone he was the jester, I had to lynch him myself, because, if he did it... he'd win.. cuz that's what he was gonna do. Really. That's what Jesters do." Wrong. Most times jesters CAN'T vote for themselves. Almost NO mini normal games have jesters in them, they AREN'T considered normal roles.

The crap claim about being a miller as an excuse to counter a vanilla townie claim was just that: Crap. Different mod, different game, different setup. There's no reason to assume that there would be identical setups. Zeek is full of it.

This is the post where I bring up the death.
Nobody else seems to have even noticed that the cop hadn't been shot, which is what the mafia normally do. I realized "Oh, maybe nobody knows about the almond smell being a poison" - It was fresh in my own head because it was in a CSI episode a week or two before I had posted that. And since nobody else had brought it up, I did.

The whole otehr stuff about Zeek was stuff that I enjyoed reading so I also included that.

[shaka!!]

IT varies HOW much better he is from day to day; Basically Michel is playing the game the EXACT same way as Gorgon did in Mini 499; polite, astute, but not town enough to prevent mislynches. Well he was until I ruffeld his feathers.

Zeek is playing the way Cicero did in Mini 499 - and in Mini 499, Gorgon buddied up hardcore to Cicero, as did Pwayne, and they were both scum.

I understand that players play differently, and games are varied in setups and such not, but the way they are playing is SO similar that it is surreal, and I got *just* as much flack in Mini 499 as I did in this game. Of course, in Mini 499, I was a vigilante, and I'm not anything like that in this game, BUT, even so, BECAUSE I'm without power means I *AM* more expendable, so I have *LESS* of a problem 'going out there' and calling out things EXACTLY the way I see it, even if there ARE flaws.

I can back this up in case no one actually reads mini #499.

NOBODY thought that Gorgon would turn up scum, both Gorgon and Pwayne were scratching Ciceros back and in turn he scratched theres, as in he was almost completely sure of their innocences (how ever he %30 sure that Pwayne was SK, lols for Skruffs).

Skruffs was the one to pick it out and they tried to chew him up and spit him out. If it weren't for Skruffs replacing into that game we would've lost.

How ever, I won't let Mini #499 interrupt with my opinion in this game when I reread. I doubt it would change much anyway.

I'll continue with my reread after gym today. Been job hunting the last few days and haven't had much time at all.

[ZeekLTK]

Zeek, why do you think Michel is town? You're the person defending him most. Is it because he's been defending you?

Okay, look at the voting records. The very beginning of Day 2 everyone casts a vote (except geraintm):

Zeek: soupfly (L-5)
soupfly: Zeek (L-5)
Lowell: TSPN (L-5)
TSPN: Zeek (L-4)
Michel: Lowell (L-5)
OGML: soupfly (L-4)
QuickBen: Zeek (L-3)
SensFan: Zeek (L-2)
Petunho: soupfly (L-3)

The vote count is:
Zeek is at L-2
soupfly is at L-3
TSPN is at L-5
Lowell is at L-5 (Michel voting for him)
no one else has votes

Michel is the first person to change his vote. He votes for soupfly to put him at L-2. To me, this makes me think Michel is not mafia. If he were mafia, he easily could have said "you know what, I think Zeek is lying. He's obviously scum, vote: zeek" and put me at L-1. This would have drawn little to no suspicion because there were already 4 players voting for me anyways. Then, most likely someone else would have switched to me, got me mislynched, and put the town in LyLo for Day 3.

Instead, he went back and looked at my past game, understood my explanations, and stopped the scum from mislynching me.

As I said before, this is very very bad play for the mafia because they had a chance to end the day relatively quickly while still killing a townie. This would have moved them on to a better situation: LyLo the following day.

Since I highly doubt a mafia would prevent an easy mislynch of a townie, I highly doubt that Michel is mafia. Does this make him town? Not necessarily, but it's likely. Could he be an SK? It's possible. Especially since he's involved in this "poison debate". But even if he is an SK he still needs to avoid putting the town in LyLo, because he would also lose... so at the moment, whether Michel is town or SK, he needs to help us lynch a mafia, so there is no reason to go after him.

[OhGodMyLife]

ZEEK: STOP USING ARGUMENTS THAT RELY WHOLLY ON YOU BEING TOWN AND DO SOME ACTUAL SCUMHUNTING

[ZeekLTK]

ZEEK: STOP USING ARGUMENTS THAT RELY WHOLLY ON YOU BEING TOWN AND DO SOME ACTUAL SCUMHUNTING

He asked me why I thought Michel was town... I answered him.

I've called out soupfly for his L-1 vote on DS (and we resolved that)
I've called out QuickBen for lurking and placing an opportunistic vote to start Day 2 and then lurking again
I've called out Skruffs for SensFan's bandwagoning (Days 1 and 2) and his poor arguments and his appeal to emotion and his "deal"
I've called out you for following bandwagons (pointed out that both Lowell and geraintm pegged you for that earlier)
I've called out Petunho for his voting record
I've voiced my concerns about TSPN (but admit these are mostly the vibe I get from his posts, I don't have much evidence to attack him with).

Basically I've come to the conclusion that today I would be fine lynching either Skruffs or QuickBen. Now I might also be willing to lynch Petunho just based on his voting record, but I feel I've looked into/attacked most players and the ones I keep coming back to are Skruffs/QuickBen so I'd like to lynch them. No one is voting anymore though, everyone is just arguing the same points...

But what have you done to hunt scum? Your vote is on Lowell (now Shaka). No one else is voting for him. You are not telling us why we should vote for him. So what good is your vote doing? How are you helping us try to lynch scum? It seems like you just have your vote put aside, out of the way, and you are waiting for us to solve this ourselves. Why don't you either try to tell us why Lowell/Shaka needs to be lynched, or take a position in the current arguments going on. Same with geraintm (except he is voting soupfly instead of Lowell).

Also, Shaka... your predecessor found me to be likely to be town and Skruffs likely to be scum (he was voting Skruffs when you replaced in). I'd like you to at least consider WHY he thought this on your read through, and at least explain why you don't agree with him (or maybe you will agree with him by the time you catch up).

[ZeekLTK]

geraintm: Zeek (L-4)
Yvonne: soupfly (L-6)
Lowell: Zeek (L-4)
(???) <- this spot missing for some reason
soupfly: DS (L-4)
Yvonne: TSPN (L-6) [actually voted gispy]
DS: soupfly (L-6)
Michel: DS (L-3)

Also, I forgot to address this.

There is nothing missing there. I just put a gap there (and put them elsewhere in that post) to try to make it a little more readable.

[Qman]

Prodding geraintm

[Skruffs]

Now that you don't want to lynch Michel even if he's an SK - which is my OWN argument against why Michel is ONLY HUNTING For the SK and NOT MAFIA...

Why do you think I am mafia and not SK, since you NOW seem to be able to tell the difference between one and the other, Zeek?