Mini 549 (Tarhalindur Mostly Mountainous) - Game Over

[Fat_Tony]

The Battousai thing only SlySly and battousai should understand. I'm still unhappy about a game we were in with Battousai, and I had more than half a mind to quit this game when I saw Battousai replacing in. And lord knows that if I was a vig I would kill Battousai right now for the town's sake.

While I appreciate the sentiment, by your own words, do not convince yourself that you would do it for town. You apparently have a meta-problem with him and would be doing it for your own ends. That sucks for town, because now we have to take everything you say with that thought in the back of our mind("Is he really thinking Battousai is scum, or is this personal?")

Though I appreciate your candor, once again, that bias really sucks.

QFT, aka blatant me too post.

[Battousai]

The Battousai thing only SlySly and battousai should understand. I'm still unhappy about a game we were in with Battousai, and I had more than half a mind to quit this game when I saw Battousai replacing in.

And lord knows that if I was a vig I would kill Battousai right now for the town's sake

.

WtF, kill an unknown, take the chance of killing a pro-town power role, vanilla townie, or scum. It's like an additional lynch, but with only past game as evidence and with out me defending myself. I do find this stupid, and suspicious. Since I see no way you will be lynched today, I will feel comfortable giving you a

FOS: Tamuz

[Ectomancer]

The Battousai thing only SlySly and battousai should understand. I'm still unhappy about a game we were in with Battousai, and I had more than half a mind to quit this game when I saw Battousai replacing in.

And lord knows that if I was a vig I would kill Battousai right now for the town's sake

.

WtF, kill an unknown, take the chance of killing a pro-town power role, vanilla townie, or scum. It's like an additional lynch, but with only past game as evidence and with out me defending myself. I do find this stupid, and suspicious. Since I see no way you will be lynched today, I will feel comfortable giving you a

FOS: Tamuz

Ditto for you too. This is crap.

Also

fos

Tamuz and

fos

Battousai for distancing.

[Tamuz]

The Battousai thing only SlySly and battousai should understand. I'm still unhappy about a game we were in with Battousai, and I had more than half a mind to quit this game when I saw Battousai replacing in.

And lord knows that if I was a vig I would kill Battousai right now for the town's sake

.

WtF, kill an unknown, take the chance of killing a pro-town power role, vanilla townie, or scum. It's like an additional lynch, but with only past game as evidence and with out me defending myself. I do find this stupid, and suspicious. Since I see no way you will be lynched today, I will feel comfortable giving you a

FOS: Tamuz

Battousai, honestly, having seen your play I believe scum have a better chance to win it for the town in an endgame than you as town. I told myself I wouldn't sign up for a game with your in it. But I made an agreement to Tar when I signed for this game, and picking you up as a replacement is not his fault. I'm not going to burden him with replacing another person because he had the unfortunate lluck of grabbing you as a replacement.

And I'd like to cite Pie's "kill-every-night-as-a-vig*" argument:

-Kill pretty much every night. If you ever submit No Kill, it should be very close to lynch-or-lose and/or you should have a very compelling tactical reason to do so.

-The above rule also applies to night zero. Always use your kill the first night.

Think of it this way: You NoKilling is pretty much the same as the town NoLynching. It's almost always stupid, and when it's the right move there are some pretty damn rare circumstances making that happen. I've posted stuff about this before (including in the other vig thread), but even a vig killing randomly is good for the town - even if you have no idea, kill anyways. Your vigkill is a lynch decided by exclusively protown members. Use it pretty much always. Not killing night zero because it's a crapshoot is like the town not lynching day one because it's a crapshoot as well.

Vigging night zero is always the correct play in a closed setup, and almost always the correct play in an open setup. Here's why:

Point: On night zero, it is rational to assume that the game is balanced. This one is pretty obvious.

Hypothetical Scenario: One day, the mod wakes up and is really pissed off, so he decides to kill someone from the game at random.

Point: If the game is balanced, then introduction of this "random kill" has an expected return of zero for both town and scum. That is, the odds of town winning are the same with no random kill at all and after the random kill has been introduced (but before it has been executed).

Conclusion: On Night Zero, a random kill would not help or hurt the town.

Realer Scenario: You are a vig. Do you kill night zero?

Point: A vig's night zero kill is exactly like a random kill, except that it can't hit the vig himself. So a vig night zero is like a random kill that will miss one of the town's strongest power roles guarenteed.

Obvious Conclusion A: So a vig killing night zero is better for the town than a random kill

Obvious Conclusion B: So vigges should always kill night zero.

Stupid Person, IN THE FUTURE wrote:
But a random kill is more likely to hit town than scum

Yes, but since a scum is more valuable to his team than a townie is it counterbalances. Go learn expected return.

This is irrelevant because I am NOT a vig, I'm simply mentioning if I was, thats were I'd use it.

It would NOT be solely done for my own ends. I would either be getting rid of a hard to spot scum--on grounds of impossible to differentiate town play-- or a detrimentally bad townie.

[Ectomancer]

Regardless of whether a Vig should kill nightly or not, your judgement is suspect.

Should we get rid of you because your bias makes it impossible to know whether you want to lynch scum, or it could just be a vendetta? That's a detrimentally bad townie to me.

Watch how you argue for someone else's lynch. You just might be arguing for your own.

[Johoohno]

My vote on you is now locked and I summarily ignore and dismiss the remainder of your post unless your innocence is proved upon your death.

This doesn't seem very beneficial for the town.

(Now I'm waiting for those who haven't called in since Tar's mass prod. There are only a few days left before deadline and a no-lynch would be incredibly bad for the town. As it is now, either Rosso or I seem, voteswise, to be going down this day.)

[Tamuz]

How bout you read and respond to 423 and your '''case'''.


Ecto. so your saying that now that my bias is open, I immediately become a worse player?

[Ectomancer]

How bout you read and respond to 423 and your '''case'''.


Ecto. so your saying that now that my bias is open, I immediately become a worse player?

Your bias makes you a worse player, not the fact that it is in the open. What has changed is that the rest of us are aware of it now.

So, you see, your argument that Battousai should die as a detrimental townie also applies to you. Do you still believe in that argument?

[Tamuz]

Yes, and I feel you are making a poor analogy, I'll explain later.

[Ectomancer]

Yes, and I feel you are making a poor analogy, I'll explain later.

Poor analogy or not, you should try to play this game objectively. If you cannot, I really would prefer you replaced out.

[Rosso Carne]

die bitches.

[RangeroftheNorth]

I'm sorry, but that last post was just too much, RC. I've put up with a lot of crap from you, assuming that it was just your playstyle, but then you go and post something like that. If you are pro-town, you aren't contributing to the benefit of the town. You are detracting from the ability of the town to detect scum by acting in such a way that a significant portion of the game wants to lynch you. In this way, you become a liability to the town. That's if you are pro-town. When, in the best case scenario, you are a liability to the town, and have acted in a way that provides ample reasons to believe you are scum, I say that it is best to completely eleminate you from the game before you can do an more harm.

unvote
vote: Rosso Carne

[Tamuz]

Firstly I want to point out how distressing it is that my post is being ignored for the strawman concept of the conspiracy theory with Battousai/my meta on him.

Instead of looking at my post and saying either "he's right, Johohno, you have no case against your 2nd scummiest" or "Tamuz, you're wrong, Johohno's case is valid for X,Y and Z" You strawman another point and ignore that which is relevant to the game.

Ecto here is the problem with your reasoning. I'm saying I would vig B

for the good of the town

because he has shown me that he would be a detriment to the town if he survives to endgame. Note For the town. My actions would be motivated by my win condition. Town. Win. You then have the gall to insinuate that I would attack B for a vendetta. This is just plain wrong. I act in accordance to my win condition, for the town to win. Nothing I have said is against that. (and on top of that most of this is based on a conditional that I have stated will not come to be).

I don't see how you have the impudence to say my bias makes me a bad player. In fact I don't see how you say bias. What you are doing is changing the rhetoric of the idea of a meta on a player to make me sound bad. Again, my argument on Battousai doesn't apply to me because I actual do try to obtain my win condition in a way applicable to my role. Not implying vanilla, then admitting vanilla then falseclaiming cop as a vanilla, then unclaiming cop, then claiming doc, then claiming vanilla and then going back to doc. Thats not trying to win.
You argument fails whether its because you don't understand something or you just want to paint me poorly I don't know.

Regardless wanna drop this and actually comment on Johohno's shite case (or the opposite if you feel it is so) rather than talking about dadaism.

[Ectomancer]

Ecto here is the problem with your reasoning. I'm saying I would vig B

for the good of the town

because he has shown me that he would be a detriment to the town if he survives to endgame. Note For the town. My actions would be motivated by my win condition. Town. Win. You then have the gall to insinuate that I would attack B for a vendetta. This is just plain wrong. I act in accordance to my win condition, for the town to win. Nothing I have said is against that. (and on top of that most of this is based on a conditional that I have stated will not come to be).

Dont lie to me. You said you have a meta problem with him, and that you would lynch him "for the good of the town". You indicate that would be regardless of alignment. We don't win by lynching town. You dont exactly inspire confidence by your continued pursuit of "permission" to lynch a townie. I dont care how he plays if he is town. He still counts towards a majority by being in game, and

THAT

should be your concern,

NOT

screwing us around trying to lynch a town member because "he would be detrimental in end game".

unvote

vote Tamuz

Dont try to blow smoke up my ass.

[Earwig]

/prodded. One of these days I'm going to actually post something.

[Tamuz]

Reading comprehension is a must!

And lord knows that if I was a

vig

I would kill Battousai right now for the town's sake.

'm saying I would

vig

B for the good of the town

Dont lie to me. You said you have a meta problem with him, and that you would lynch him "for the good of the town". You indicate that would be regardless of alignment. We don't win by lynching town. You dont exactly inspire confidence by your continued pursuit of "permission" to lynch a townie. I dont care how he plays if he is town. He still counts towards a majority by being in game, and THAT should be your concern, NOT screwing us around trying to lynch a town member because "he would be detrimental in end game".

1. You don't leave this moot and stupid point. Chasing it to attack me is scummy
2. You either suck at reading or again you are painting me incorrectly. I said vig, in an IF scenario. You repeat LYNCH. Again, Scummy. When have I said "lets lynch B or even attack him?
3. So we disagree on whats good for the town. I prefer to have quality plays who play like town when they are town, not scum when they are town. I prefer players who have a hope of winning the game. Buffalo theory, kill off the weak, make everyone stronger. I wrote more response, but then I felt dumb because it concerned lynching, and I haven't advocated a B lynch.
4. If you say you don't care about how he plays as town, you're lying. You better as hell care about how your fellow townies play as town. If your scum you shouldn't really care about how townies play. But part of being a good townie is being PREDICTABLE in your PRO-TOWN ACTIONS. If a townie doesn't act like this it is safe to begin thinking that they are SCUM


You are blowing this up to serve as a basis to attack me. I haven't said "lets lynch B" or even "I'm killing B tonight". I explained a conspiracy theory by Johohno and you mountain-out-of-a-molehilled it.

And even still you continue strawmanning this and ignoring anything else I say, so I'll repost it in big fucking red letters.

Firstly I want to point out how distressing it is that my post is being ignored for the strawman concept of the conspiracy theory with Battousai/my meta on him.

Instead of looking at my post and saying either "he's right, Johohno, you have no case against your 2nd scummiest" or "Tamuz, you're wrong, Johohno's case is valid for X,Y and Z" You strawman another point and ignore that which is relevant to the game.

[Tarhalindur]

Your mod has come down with an illness (probably the flu), hence the lack of vote count and/or fixing vote count yesterday. He will attempt to catch up later tonight, but he can make no guarantees at the moment. -Tar

[Ectomancer]

Yes, reading my posts, it is absolutely clear that I have been searching for a reason to vote for you. Glory hallelujah, you gave me one.

/sarcasm off

You demonstrated your bias with your statement on vigging Battousai. Your lie is that you are doing it for town. You are doing it for yourself. Then you try to convince us that it is good for the town?
Scum. How do I know? I've done it. Can't recall the newbie game myself, but it is still there. Our Cop was playing poorly, so I managed to quicklynched him. Then I
convinced the town, that even if he really

was

the Cop, that I lynched him "for the good of the town", because "he would have just confused us". Stupid town fell for it, and I walked away with the win as Scum. Neither I, nor my scumbuddy was lynched.

FYI, a strawman is you pointing out that I used the word "lynch" instead of "vig" as you did. So what? Your intention is the same, and that is to get a player killed,

even if he is town

, due to your own personal bias.

Cry all you want about Johoohno and your "case" on him. My focus is on

you

and your statement. Johoohno's case has nothing to do with your bias on Battousai. It could be valid or not. It will be far easier to evaluate after you're dead and your alignment is no longer of question.

My vote stands.

[Tamuz]

Don't admit that you were WRONG. You took what I said and used completely different words that mean absolutely different words and then made that into a reason to attack me.

Lynches and vigs are completely different don't even TRY to equivocate them. I have power in a lynch, I don't in a vig.

You still have yet to bring up any evidence of me asking or trying to convince any other member of the town to attack or kill Battousai.


AND YOU CONTINUE TO FUCKING IGNORE ANYTHING I SAY IN TERMS OF JOHOOHNO. GET OFF YOUR LAZY SPITEFUL FUCKING ASS AND AT LEAST APPLY YOURSELF TO THE GAME NOT THIS PISS THAT YOU HAVE NOW BROUGHT ABOUT TOWARDS ME.

You continue strawmanning away, keep doing this and someone might get the idea that you're defending Johohno

Your anecdote fails because its syntax is so broken I can't understand it




You'll feel quite a tool at the end of this. This should be a good game for you to reread and go "wow, my play sucks balls"


I think both of us should stop talking and others should actually discuss the game, not this stupidity that you continue coming back to (and thus I have to defend myself as my townily duty) because we are cluttering up any scumsearching.


BTW Earwig, your post is shit, I do note that you aren't doing anything real.

[Ectomancer]

How does Johoohno have anything to do with your desire to kill Battousai? How does lynch vs vig make any difference in the fact that you want to kill Battousai, and it has nothing to do with evidence that he is scum?

I'm sure you wish I would shut up. Shit in one hand and wish in the other and see which fills up first. You made a bullshit statement. When called on it, you could have said, alright, I'll try to be objective. Instead, you forged on with your attack on Battousai and are trying to convince us that it is OK to kill town if they suck.

I don't think so scum. Typing in big red letters and yelling strawman wont help you (which you then adequately demonstrate with your lynch vs vig and whatever the fuck Johoohno is supposed to have to do with your Vig Battousai statement)

Apply myself to the game? I have, with a big fat vote on you Tamuz.

[SlySly]

I have unintentionally been the bad playing townie before and was lynched early.

I have been the scum lynching the bad playing townie.

I would have to say, a bad townie does give scum an advantage of being able to essentially get on the bad townie wagon and hope for a night kill. At that point, it's 2 town down and advantage scum.

I think it is always pro-town to keep townies around whether they are playing bad or not. I think it is always scummy to promote a town lynch in any way. If you suspect a player that is playing bad is town, you should not vote, vig or harm in any way.

The town safety is in the numbers.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bias should not be carried from game to game as far as playing your role goes. However, witnessing horrendous play from a player in one game is hard to just erase from your memory when you find yourself in another game with them.

I don't sense any "vote this guy because he was terrible in another game" going on here.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If RC is the Jester, does everyone lose if we lynch him?

His play couldn't be any more anti-town than it is. So much so that it is becoming painfully obvious his play style is anti-town and on purpose.

[Tamuz]

Tar... I think you may want to look for a replacement. I'm sorry, but regardless of anything, this game will not be fun for me with the current status.

[Ectomancer]

I cant defend myself, I quit.

Fixt

[SlySly]

Some people really need to thicken their skin.

If I quit every time I got attacked, I'd rarely last passed the first post.

I really hate the, "WAAAAAHHHHH, this game is not fun for me because someone is attacking me so I quit." If think if that is your mindset, you shouldn't play mafia.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Once again, for those blinded by the recent bs, if RC is the Jester and we lynch him, does he win and everyone else loses?

I have never been part of a game with a Jester before so I don't know.

[Tamuz]

Sly, stop. If you've even read anything I've played I don't just quit when I get attacked. This is different.

Ecto, you can shut the fuck up you hypocritical tool.

Poor analogy or not, you should try to play this game objectively. If you cannot, I really would prefer you replaced out.

I can, but it is no longer allowed for me to be able to. This game is now corrupt with me in it.