Mafia 74: Minimally Flavoured - Game over!

[Skruffs]

The difference between this and most setups is that the scum are just as interested in scumhunting as the townies. Unless there's some kind of wacky win condition (doubtful), the scum usually need to eliminate the other scum group in order to secure victory. As long as the other scum team lives, a win is impossible.

So, yeah, I could see scum trying to fly under the radar, but most likely, they are actually trying to find scum. That's the tricky thing about this game.

When I was in Big Brother mafia, a mini game with two 3-person scum teams, three or so of the scum were adament in saying that the scum would probably do lots of scum hunting, since there was 'another team'.

It didn't turn out that way; because the scum also want to kill townies. So what happened was that they did SOME scum hunting but mostly tried to stay 'normal', making mistakes and acting like unhelpful townies. They won, too.

I'm always suspicious of people, anyone, who tries to suggest that scum would do things that are beneficial to the town. The scum only care about the other scum in so much as they don't want to lose to them; but on the other hand, as long as there is one scum group being mroe obvious than your own, are YOU going to try and get them lynched or nked?

Keep your friends close and your enemies closer, and all that.

So FOS on the Rishi for trying to suggest that the scum are going to be scum hunting. All that does is make people skeptical of those who ARE town and scum hunting. Fos fos fos.

[Bookitty]

I'm happy with my vote where it is, but I also see and agree with the logic behind a Snaps lynch for reasons I previously stated.

Oh... and speaking of wishy-washiness (not to mention that this post is awfully agreeable).

Have you read any of my previous posts, Rishi?

What is your point with this? That I agree with and approve of lynching either of my top two suspects?

[OhGodMyLife]

Panzer, I don't consider what I'm doing giving up. I truly believe if I am left alive, it will be detrimental to the town. This is not a gambit. I am a vanilla townie, I am not a power role, so my loss is not a big one, but if I am left alive there will always be a question mark next to my name because of how I played on day one and the cases brought against me by Bookitty and Vollkan. They were good cases. I got bitched around a lot D1 and it makes me look like a likely member of either scum team. I also had real life issues that made me fairly lurky throughout day one. I'm all but positive that I will be lynched eventually, and I want that to be today instead of when we're approaching LyLo. Today my lynch won't cost the town the game, but it will get a major distraction out of the way.

[vollkan]

I’m not sure what I’m being called to explain. A little more specific please, Volkan.

The pbp broadly, but you seem to have responded to the main points yourse

Lurkerhunting:
Yes, I am a lurkerhunter. Lurking is an anti-town behavior and must not be tolerated. Lurking causes games to stall, stifles conversation, and provides cover for the mafia. I will always put pressure on lurkers because of this. True, it is better for lurkers to be replaced, and if that is a possibility it is one I endorse. However, the problem comes when we have a lurker or few who post just enough to avoid being replaced.

Lurkerlynching is as anti-town as lurking itself (potentially more so, potentially less so in special circumstances). Can you meta-link me to you lurker-hunting as town?

(Theory point: The correct means to deal with lurkers, imo, is to bombard them with questions and give the following ultimatum: "Answer or f*** off completely and be replaced". That gives them no excuse.)

On day one I voted Disciple Slayer, not only because he was lurking, but because he was distracting the town and not even attempting to contribute. I didn’t then, and don’t now see why a townie would act in that way.

That's not the point. As I said, late day those things can be justification. But from the start of the day you were effectively pushing DS purely for his unhelpful play.

Then we have things like:

He has been lurking and bandwagoning. Both very common mafia tells. He has not contributed to the discustion at all. He has two posts in this thread, both are bandwagon votes with no statement.

As of yet, my highest suspicion is still DiscipleSlayer. His obvious bandwagon votes and lack of contribution to the discussion really makes him seem like a mafia, and I can see no reason for an innocent to use such obvious mafia tells. I beleive he is a mafia hiding in plain sight.
Vote : DiscipleSlayer

I agree with Mills that Disciple Slayer is being unhelpful, and that pointless bandwagon votes without contributing discussion is pretty scummy looking. However, his scumminess seems to me to be way too obvious. What mafia would give such blatent tells? On the other hand, what townie would? If I were to hazard a geuss right now, I would say that Disciple Slayer is a mafia attempting to hide in plain sight. Perhaps, he thinks that such obvious tells would incline us to belive that he is not mafia after all. I will be reserving my vote until after Disciple Slayer attempts to explain himself.

None of this is actual evidence for scumminess. It's you equating unhelpfulness and pointless BWing with scumminess.

On day two I initially voted for Dark Ermac. I thought he was scum because he seemed to have information that only scum would have. Looking back at his posts, it still seems to me that he was saying he KNEW Disciple Slayer was innocent, though I know now he couldn’t have know for sure. Another reason I was suspicions of him was because he ignored my allegations. I changed my vote to Egruntz when he claimed scum, because he claimed scum. I am sure everyone who didn’t would have if they had the chance.

Yes. He expressed the view that he DS was pro-town, but when, for example, Mills points out that you weren't reading it closely enough, you don't shift your position

On “conspiracy theories” and being “wishy washy”:
I believe that is important to consider all possibilities. That is why I brought up the possibility of a jailkeeper or that Antithesis might be lying about his role. I personally don’t think either of those is the case, but needed to be addressed as possibilities.

The conspiracies I can see are:
* Suggesting egr may be scum faking newbtells
* DS as mafia in plain sight

This is not a question of valid possibilities - this is contriving suspicion based on mere conjecture.

[PJ.]

Snaps, you've suggested 2 lurkers and went after them, they were both town(power roles too) Isn't that enough to get you to stop? It's also very chic to OMGUS me. Can we lynch this scum?

[Skruffs]

Are there any lurkers snaps HASN'T gone after?

[OhGodMyLife]

Are there any lurkers snaps HASN'T gone after?

Rishi: Replaced in late in day one. Pointed out that Xylthixlm and Egruntz names are different colors. As I stated earlier, I don’t see this as a scum or innocent tell as both are likely to point out the difference. However, this seems to be his only contribution to the game.

Actually, yeah. He points out here how Rishi has been inactive, but neglects to call him scummy for it, and later in one of his postcount posts he notes Rishi's low activity levels and voting pattern, but again ignores him in favor of calling out xyzzy and liamcool on their lurking.

[Rishi]

So FOS on the Rishi for trying to suggest that the scum are going to be scum hunting. All that does is make people skeptical of those who ARE town and scum hunting. Fos fos fos.

The game that I played with two scum groups (Twofold Mafia), the scum were fairly active in scumhunting and were desperately trying to get the other group.

You seem to keep pointing the finger at me based on anecdotal experience from other games. The problem is that you are assuming that all scum are going to play the same way. If scum always played the same, then it'd be pretty darn easy to catch them.

But, you are now saying that the lurkers aren't scummy and the people who are scumhunting aren't scummy. Who's left? Not everyone is town.

[Antithesis]

The game that I played with two scum groups (Twofold Mafia), the scum were fairly active in scumhunting and were desperately trying to get the other group.

You seem to keep pointing the finger at me based on anecdotal experience from other games.

I find this interesting because Rishi starts with an anecdote about another game (as a justification for something he argued earlier). Then impugns Skruff for using anecdotes in his arguments.

The problem is that you are assuming that all scum are going to play the same way.

Didn't you make the same assumption with your anecdote?

If scum always played the same, then it'd be pretty darn easy to catch them.

If you knew this, then why did the topic ever come up?

But, you are now saying that the lurkers aren't scummy and the people who are scumhunting aren't scummy. Who's left? Not everyone is town.

I think he's actually saying that you are trying to be just active

enough

to seem like you aren't lurking without adding anything to the discussion in terms of scumhunting.

[Rishi]

The game that I played with two scum groups (Twofold Mafia), the scum were fairly active in scumhunting and were desperately trying to get the other group.

You seem to keep pointing the finger at me based on anecdotal experience from other games.

I find this interesting because Rishi starts with an anecdote about another game (as a justification for something he argued earlier). Then impugns Skruff for using anecdotes in his arguments.

The problem is that you are assuming that all scum are going to play the same way.

Didn't you make the same assumption with your anecdote?

If scum always played the same, then it'd be pretty darn easy to catch them.

If you knew this, then why did the topic ever come up?

But, you are now saying that the lurkers aren't scummy and the people who are scumhunting aren't scummy. Who's left? Not everyone is town.

I think he's actually saying that you are trying to be just active

enough

to seem like you aren't lurking without adding anything to the discussion in terms of scumhunting.

Good points. My main criticism of Skruffs, however, was that he was saying there was ONE METHOD of catching scum. I offer the idea that scum are scumhunting as a possible scenario. Maybe it's true, maybe it's not. But Skruffs, using anecdotal evidence, says that it's definitely not true. Well, I'm providing anecdotal evidence that it might be true. So maybe scum are scumhunting, maybe they're lurking, maybe they're doing absolutely nothing.... but I don't buy it if anyone is going to say, "Well, I know x is scum because..."

This is probably why it's hard for me to get a handle on this game. Add on top of that that there are a LOT of good players in the game (and, yes, some bad ones), and it's tough.

Many of you have played with me before. I'm always semi-lurkerish in the early game. As time moves on, you'll see me get more active and more sure about my accusations.

[OhGodMyLife]

Rishi, 26 pages and three days in is still the early game?

[PJ.]

Rishi, 26 pages and three days in is still the early game?

answer this.

[Rishi]

Rishi, 26 pages and three days in is still the early game?

Day Three in a large game isn't early? There's still 12 players left.

Plus, I replaced into this game fairly late, at the very end of Day 1. Day 2 was ridiculously short. So, for me, it still feels like the early game. There's a colossal difference between reading the first 20 pages and actually participating in the first 20 pages.

[Bookitty]

I'm happy with my vote where it is, but I also see and agree with the logic behind a Snaps lynch for reasons I previously stated.

Oh... and speaking of wishy-washiness (not to mention that this post is awfully agreeable).

Have you read any of my previous posts, Rishi?

What is your point with this? That I agree with and approve of lynching either of my top two suspects?

I'd like an answer to this, please, Rishi.

[Skruffs]

Are there any lurkers snaps HASN'T gone after?

Rishi: Replaced in late in day one. Pointed out that Xylthixlm and Egruntz names are different colors. As I stated earlier, I don’t see this as a scum or innocent tell as both are likely to point out the difference. However, this seems to be his only contribution to the game.

Actually, yeah. He points out here how Rishi has been inactive, but neglects to call him scummy for it, and later in one of his postcount posts he notes Rishi's low activity levels and voting pattern, but again ignores him in favor of calling out xyzzy and liamcool on their lurking.

THis is interesting. And it doesn't bode well for Rishi, who I've been buttsniffing since day started.

So FOS on the Rishi for trying to suggest that the scum are going to be scum hunting. All that does is make people skeptical of those who ARE town and scum hunting. Fos fos fos.

The game that I played with two scum groups (Twofold Mafia), the scum were fairly active in scumhunting and were desperately trying to get the other group.

You seem to keep pointing the finger at me based on anecdotal experience from other games.

In response to you doing the same thing.

The problem is that you are assuming that all scum are going to play the same way. If scum always played the same, then it'd be pretty darn easy to catch them.

Strangely enough, so are you. And I agree. But scum people do tend to have patterns.

But, you are now saying that the lurkers aren't scummy and the people who are scumhunting aren't scummy. Who's left? Not everyone is town.

Am I? That's a very shallow interpretation of what I am saying. Saying that ALL lurkers aren't scummy and ALL scum hunters aren't scummy is much different from saying SOME aren't scummy or that htey aren't scummy AUTOMATICALLY. Scum usually do one of things:

They Lurk (not very often because lurkers make easy targets for bored town)
They Waffle (Usually the case; support other people's misguided assumptions and encourage infighting between townies.)
They Bus ("Pro-Town Lurking", this is where a scum takes the 'easy way' to looking good and launches a case against a fellow member, ONLY useful in single-scum group games)
or
They Gambit (This is where mafia intentionally make 'strong' cases against townies or try to root out the SK, and is the most dangerous and is the oen I tend to be attuned to)


Crap, Antithesis already said all that for me. I hate you antithesis, or should I say "Glory Stealer"!!!


As for "anecdotal evidence" - I do not think scum come out of the bag swinging at each other. Scum hunting scum usually happens latently - See Waffling above - quietly building their own cases against who they THINK is scum for a situation where the other scum team is closer to winning OR if they are in danger of dying themselves. Scum in the beginnign of a game are going to loosely try to get power roles killed off, and at the end of the game, when town is a minority and not a threat to either of them, they will then attack each other. So yes scum WILL hunt each other LATER in the game or day 1 before it's even known there 'is' a second scum group.

[vollkan]

Plus, I replaced into this game fairly late, at the very end of Day 1. Day 2 was ridiculously short. So, for me, it still feels like the early game. There's a colossal difference between reading the first 20 pages and actually participating in the first 20 pages.

Is this an excuse?

Please respond to what has been said. I replaced in too, and I've managed to pull my weight in analyses. Not having played is not an excuse. It just means you need to try and make an extra effort.

[Elias_the_thief]

The Official "Maybe Four Weeks is too long" Flavorless Votecount:

OhGodMyLife - 3

(Vollkan, Bookitty, Antithesis)

Snaps the pirate - 3

(OhGodMyLife, Phate, panzerjager)

panzerjager - 2

(Snaps the pirate, Xyzzy)

liamcool - 1

(hasdgfas)

Xyzzy - 1

(Skruffs)

Rishi - 0

Phate - 0

Antithesis - 0

Bookitty - 0

Hasdgfas - 0

Skruffs - 0

Vollkan - 0

Nobody - 2

(liamcool, Rishi)

With

12

alive, it will take

7

to lynch.

---

Deadline will be

Sunday, March 9th, at 10 PM EST, one week from today.

[Snaps_the_Pirate]

I have a few questions I'd like answered.

Bookitty

: Why do you think voting for Erguntz after he claimed is a scum tell? Don't you think an innocent might also have voted that way? Of all those who voted after his claim, why do you find me the most suspicious?

Hasdgfas, Liamcool, Phate, Rishi

: Who do you find suspicions? After nearly three months and over 600 posts, you must have some suspicions.

Panzerjager

: What caused you to speculate on day one that we have two scum groups? Why do you feel that there are three in each group?

Skruffs

: If you suspect Rishi for pointing out the color difference in Xly and Erguntz names, why aren't you likewise suspicious of Panzerjager for having similar "in game" knowledge?

Volkan

: While your analysis and arguments are very good, I haven't seen where you state who you think is scum and/or town. Who do you suspect?

[vollkan]

Volkan : While your analysis and arguments are very good, I haven't seen where you state who you think is scum and/or town. Who do you suspect?

I rely on my analyses to give me proper reads on people.

Antithesis has claimed cop, which is a reason to think him protown. Other than that, seeing as scumhunting is not a towntell per se in this game, I am keeping an open mind.

Right now, my biggest suspects are OGML and snaps.

Something is bugging me about panzer and phate also, but I will need to reread them to work out whether this is just gut-nonsense, or if there is something behind it.

[Rishi]

Plus, I replaced into this game fairly late, at the very end of Day 1. Day 2 was ridiculously short. So, for me, it still feels like the early game. There's a colossal difference between reading the first 20 pages and actually participating in the first 20 pages.

Is this an excuse?

Please respond to what has been said. I replaced in too, and I've managed to pull my weight in analyses. Not having played is not an excuse. It just means you need to try and make an extra effort.

I think it's bad policy to criticize people for replacing in and expecting them to do MORE work. I read the first 20 pages and have been participating. Why would anyone want to replace into a game if they're going to get crap like this?

This makes me want to participate LESS, not MORE.

[Skruffs]

I didn't realize Panzer commented on the scum groups day 1; I'll be honest and admit that I wasn't in the game, day 1, and so I really couldn't have commented on it at that time. Irresponsible of me, I know. Did you comment on it?

Could you bring up the quote?

[PJ.]

There are probably more then 3 scum cause it's 18 player game.. My guess is either one group of 4 or 2 groups of 3. I try to avoid doctor speculation.

Antithesis, read the post that Bookitty pointed out and read a few of my post, I put a present a case a couple of times on Mills.

CKD is definently the next best lynch candidate. I still don't believe in the DS wagon and I think it is scum induced.

was in response to Antithesis' post 365 where he speculates about number of scum. I don't out and out say their are 2 scum groups of 3 i say there is another option(being one group of 4-5[didn't add 5 in the post on accident]) Anyway, this is really just blind speculation based on being in large games and playing mafia for a while. You come to know what to expect.

[vollkan]

Plus, I replaced into this game fairly late, at the very end of Day 1. Day 2 was ridiculously short. So, for me, it still feels like the early game. There's a colossal difference between reading the first 20 pages and actually participating in the first 20 pages.

Is this an excuse?

Please respond to what has been said. I replaced in too, and I've managed to pull my weight in analyses. Not having played is not an excuse. It just means you need to try and make an extra effort.

I think it's bad policy to criticize people for replacing in and expecting them to do MORE work. I read the first 20 pages and have been participating. Why would anyone want to replace into a game if they're going to get crap like this?

This makes me want to participate LESS, not MORE.

I didn't say you needed to do MORE work. I asked you specifically to respond to the questions which had been asked. You misunderstand what I mean by "extra effort". It's harder for replacements to contribute. Thus, they/we usually need to put in some more effort than a normal player otherwise would. But, the mere fact that someone has replaced doesn't excuse them.

[Rishi]

Plus, I replaced into this game fairly late, at the very end of Day 1. Day 2 was ridiculously short. So, for me, it still feels like the early game. There's a colossal difference between reading the first 20 pages and actually participating in the first 20 pages.

Is this an excuse?

Please respond to what has been said. I replaced in too, and I've managed to pull my weight in analyses. Not having played is not an excuse. It just means you need to try and make an extra effort.

I think it's bad policy to criticize people for replacing in and expecting them to do MORE work. I read the first 20 pages and have been participating. Why would anyone want to replace into a game if they're going to get crap like this?

This makes me want to participate LESS, not MORE.

I didn't say you needed to do MORE work. I asked you specifically to respond to the questions which had been asked. You misunderstand what I mean by "extra effort". It's harder for replacements to contribute. Thus, they/we usually need to put in some more effort than a normal player otherwise would. But, the mere fact that someone has replaced doesn't excuse them.

Fair enough. I'll respond to outstanding questions posed to me at some point in the next 24 hours. Probably some time when I'm not at work.

[Elias_the_thief]

Activity seems to have gone down...anyone you guys want me to prod? I'll probably end up prodding everyone tonight.