Mini 551- Mod Abandoned

[Khelvaster]

I'm also wondering how the priorities are decided among the groups of same precedence. According to the game's mechanics, roleblockers are all on the same "level" in the stack. My guess is that all roleblockers block at the same time, regardless. Killers are resolved after roleblockers, so only roleblockers that weren't blocked get to do their blocking successfully...

You don't understand me correctly.

Let the roleblocking chain be
A>>>>B>>>>C>>>D>>>E>>>>Mafia Goon

Where A blocks B, B blocks C, and so on.

I take this and stack it as follows:
A
B
C
D
E
Mafia Goon

Goon is making the non-blocking night action, so he is on the bottom of the stack. E blocked Goon, so he goes on next. It goes like that up to A. Now I start to resolve this, from the top down.

A resolves, and blocks B. This means both of them are now off the stack, leaving me with
C
D
E
Mafia Goon

C blocks D, removing both of those, leaving me with

E
Mafia Goon

E blocks Mafia Goon, so Goon's night kill does not get through.


Is this clear?

[SensFan]

Say A and B are paired. Come night, A blocks B, and B blocks A.

Now assume A is scum, and tries to kill instead of blocking. Now B is blocking him, and no one is blocking B. So there is no kill. The same logic applies if B is scum.

The net result is that the scum can't kill at night unless two of them happen to get paired with each other. That's a huge advantage for the town.

Vote: A

Vote: K
Vote: I
Vote: L
Vote: L
Vote: S

Vote: A
Vote: N
Vote: D

Vote: C

Vote: B
Vote: L
Vote: O
Vote: C
Vote: K
Vote: S

Vote: B

Vote: I
Vote: N
Vote: S
Vote: T
Vote: E
Vote: A
Vote: D

Vote: O
Vote: F

Vote: D


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Unvote

[Joubert]

Okay, but then, in the example, from A to E, who's who? Is it on a "first come, first serve" basis?
How do you decide which roleblocker is A, which one is B, etc... ?

[Korts]

@Joubert: the one making a night kill is always at the beginning of the chain (in the example, the mafia goon). After that, the one blocking the goon is always E. The one blocking E is always D. the one blocking D is always C. The one blocking C is always B. And the one blocking B is always A. Do you see now? Also, read Post 1. It's all there.

[ting =)]

Sensfan would be right if the mafia have roleblockers. Otherwise, the scum can't block whoever is blocking their nk-er. Can we assume that since we're all mostly roleblockers, the scum are all goons?

[Cavebear with a toothache]

Joubert: Did you miss the part where you weren't supposed to reveal who you blocked? To answer your question, A is the person who is blocking B who is the person blocking C etc all the way to the action that is NOT a roleblock (in this case a night kill). In other words, as long as there is an even number in the chain, the final action will be blocked; if there's an odd number of people, the action will go through.

SensFan: C would still be blocked by D, so it wouldn't matter. I think the plan to pair up is pretty solid. (Chain would be townD blocks scumC who can't block townB who blocks scumA who then can't NK. Even if the third scum, scumE, tried to block townD (or townB), scumE would in turn be blocked by townF.) Now, did you find anything last night?

[Korts]

The plan also works most probably if the mafia have an RB, because the mafia RB will be paired with someone else too, and if he tries to block anyone else than his partner, he will be blocked.

Also, I think it's possible that the mafia is all-RB too. Or are they too overpowered that way?

[Korts]

Yeah, been ninja'd. Cavebear's saying just what I was trying to.

[SensFan]

Now, did you find anything last night?

The alternative would be that we decide that SensFan is trustworthy. In that case, it would be better to leave him for last and use that information to narrow down the possible liers amongst the roleblockers.

[Cogito Ergo Scum]

Okay, so this should be easy.

Xyl blocks jerubbaal and vice-versa.
Joubert blocks Korts and vice-versa.
Imat blocks Shanba and vice-versa.
ting blocks Cavebear with a Toothache and vice-versa.
I will not submit an action.
We will lynch SF after he reveals his result.

[Cavebear with a toothache]

Now, did you find anything last night?

The alternative would be that we decide that SensFan is trustworthy. In that case, it would be better to leave him for last and use that information to narrow down the possible liers amongst the roleblockers.

Right. The alternative. I thought about that, and I believe that it's better to have a higher chance of outing you (ie gambling on the scum not being in a position to screw things up by letting them reveal last) than betting on you being a cop to begin with. The possible gain is higher (revealing a fake cop compared to establishing that someone unknown is lying about their claim).

Of course, this is increasingly becoming a moot point what with people revealing their actions anyway. Anyway, if anyone strongly objects against SensFan revealing his stuff before the remaining three (I think?) people reveal their actions, let him/her speak now.

I do really think that a mass-claim is the absolute best thing for us at this moment.

I agree about the claim, but not the revealing of actions. If we can confirm SensFan as a cop, and we can keep the scum from killing at night, this game is won.

Let me repeat that:

If SensFan can be confirmed as cop and we can keep the scum from killing him by locking them down in pairs, WE WIN.

Confirming should be easy enough if we can keep him alive; just go for no lynch each night and wait until he finds scum, roleblocking in pairs to keep them from NK:ing. Lynch that person. If he's scum, we're golden - we just rinse and repeat until all the scum are flushed out. If not, we're back to where we are now (scum can't NK, we try to find them by discussion) except we know one scum for sure (SensFan).

On that note,

FoS Xylthixlm, FoS Cogito Ergo Scum

for these quotes:

So: Pair off all the players except SensFan and one other. Lynch SensFan.

We will lynch SF after he reveals his result.

What's your rush, if the scum can't NK?

[Korts]

Okay, so this should be easy.

Xyl blocks jerubbaal and vice-versa.
Joubert blocks Korts and vice-versa.
Imat blocks Shanba and vice-versa.
ting blocks Cavebear with a Toothache and vice-versa.
I will not submit an action.
We will lynch SF after he reveals his result.

Vote: CESc[/]. I think it's highly suspicious that he left

himself

without a pair, effectively making sure he won't get blocked.

[Joubert]

Sorry for the fuss, people. Now I understand. I did read the first post and the explanations, but it was just not perfectly clear. Now it is...

Cavebear, yes, I did read about not revealing the blocked person, but since there was some people who already did, I thought it would make things clearer for subsequent plans...

The pairing strategy seems to be good. If there are Mafia roleblockers, this could make things more confused and break our setup...

Korts, I see what you mean, but there must be someone not paired, since there's an even number of people and SF is supposed to be left alone. Do you think we should replace CES with someone else?

[Korts]

Sorry, EBWOP:

Vote: CESc

I think no single person should decide who should be left unpaired. How about an unofficial vote or something to decide? I propose Xyl.

[Joubert]

Anyone would be WIFOM, unless we throw a dice...

[Korts]

Also, didn't have the energy to read through Cavebear's last post earlier, but now I've run through it, I have to say, I agree completely. But for now, my vote stays on CESc. At least until he reacts.

[Korts]

Anyone would be WIFOM, unless we throw a dice...

If we vote for the one we find the least scummy, the chances are we leave a town player without a pair. Do you have any better idea?

[SensFan]

Do you have any better idea?

Vote: L
Vote: Y
Vote: N
Vote: C
Vote: H

Vote: O
Vote: N
Vote: E

---

Vote: P
Vote: A
Vote: I
Vote: R

Vote: E
Vote: I
Vote: G
Vote: H
Vote: T

---

Vote: I

Vote: I
Vote: N
Vote: V
Vote: E
Vote: S
Vote: T
Vote: I
Vote: G
Vote: A
Vote: T
Vote: E

[Cogito Ergo Scum]

Korts: Being unpaired is hardly an advantage. If there'd be a kill tonight, that'd be a huge point against me. However, you can go unpaired to, if you wish. I'm 100% sure you're town.

[Imat]

...100% sure? That can never happen, unless the person is dead. Then you may POSSIBLY be sure of their alignment.

However, I disagree that CESc's act of not pairing himself is Scummy. If we are all paired and the NK happens, odds are hes the one who did it...Unless of course Sens doesn't get good info, then its probably him. But, in case of the unlikely event of pairing Scum, I think we need to lynch one to clear up our choices...I don't want to ruin what we've got, but its an even better plan in the end.

[Cavebear with a toothache]

If there's one person we could leave, it's probably SensFan, assuming we're going to use him to find scum, and assuming he can't block and investigate at the same time. That would imply that the prudent course of action is to lynch no one, as that leaves us with even pairs plus one (which would be SensFan), meaning scum would have to be paired up with each other to pull off a night kill. As a matter of fact, SensFan of all people should realize that.

SensFan, I do believe you should reveal your results from last night now.

[jerubbaal]

Pairs should break this, as long as we don't end up pairing scum with scum or leaving the scum as the last man out. Simply based on this, I don't see how we can SF live. If I'm reading correctly, I don't think SF has even claimed his results from last night. If he was roleblocked (which he would be if the scum have RB's too and SF is the real cop), we won't have any current information from him. If we mislynch today, tomorrow is lylo, and the perfect position for SF to be in if he's a falseclaiming cop. We can't "test" his results - if we do, we lose the game, flat out, if SF is scum (which I think is extremely likely). Basically, no, I'm not willing to gamble our entire game on the extremely small chance that SF is a cop with a PR in a mini-normal. It seems ridiculous and useless in this scenario.

And anyway, if we decide that we can't take the chance to confirm his results, then he's actually more of a liability than a help. If he can't RB, there is a hole in the system. If he's going to stay around, he has to be the unpaired one. So yes, he's definitely the lynch today.

Vote: SF

I am slightly confused how you are 100% sure that Korts is not scum, CES. Looking through our blocking patterns from night 1, I don't think we really learn anything useful.

Also, we need a claim from Shanba, just to fill things in. If there is a missing link here, we need to figure out what to do with it.

[jerubbaal]

If there's one person we could leave, it's probably SensFan, assuming we're going to use him to find scum, and assuming he can't block and investigate at the same time. That would imply that the prudent course of action is to lynch no one, as that leaves us with even pairs plus one (which would be SensFan), meaning scum would have to be paired up with each other to pull off a night kill. As a matter of fact, SensFan of all people should realize that.

SensFan, I do believe you should reveal your results from last night now.

No, we're at 10 now, will be a 9 after lynch. If we lynch, we have an outlier, not if we no lynch. And of course scum could only kill if they were paired, unless of course SF were scum. And if we're planning on keeping SF around, then we can't pair him. It completely defeats the point, which leaves yet another person unpaired. We need to lynch someone, and it needs to be SF. You are basically setting up the equation SF=cop, we win v. SF=scum, we lose. I think the odds on that favor the scum heavily.

[jerubbaal]

I'm not condemning Joubert until we see lovo's dead body. He might very well be scum.

I actually like CES's pairings. I'm reading him as most likely to be town right now, mainly because of his comment about not being so sure about lovo coming up scum. At that point, the roleblocker thing wasn't out of the bag yet, and the comment reads exactly like, "I'm a roleblocker too, so I wouldn't be surprised if he's lying." Almost exactly the same thing with Korts.

Actually, lovo, I'm a little surprised by your claim. I mean, you must be telling the truth, no need to lie anymore, so I'm not saying I doubt you, just, you know, surprised.

It's kinda funny, we actually got some hints because Khel gave us twilight for like a week that we might not have gotten if he was actually paying attention.

So anywho, I'd be completely fine with either CES or Korts as the odd man out.

[Imat]

I think you missed something very important here jerubbaal: This isn't a normal setup. With so many roleblockers, I actually find it likely that a Power Role of some other sort would have some distinguishing mark of some sort. So, in the end, probability in a normal game=close to none, probability in this setup=much, much higher.

And to Cavebear: We should probably lynch if we want this to work well.