Mini 568 - Nubigena (Game over!)

[Sammich]

- your rolling dice in real game. and voting for urself. IMO, the probability of your being a townie AND getting the dice result to vote for yourself (1/11) is very small that it makes me think that probability of your being scum
AND rigging the dice result to vote for yourself in order to show us that you are "fair" is significantly higher.
- BTW, how did you roll the dice when there were 11 people you had to randomly pick?

In real game and voting for myself. Lolwut? But, it's not very easy to get a twelve sided dice in real life. It wasn't even a whole dice roll, per se. What I did was this.

1. Take two six sided dice. Dice one represents players one through five: Mafiaplayer, Incognito, Lowell, XReyoX, and myself. The sixth number on the die would indicate a reroll. Dice two represented thephantom, the catherder, Fat Tony, Imat, jerubbaal, and you, Near.

The odds of me being picked was actually 1 out of five players, but I wasn't shooting for that.

I rolled dice one and got the reroll number, odds of so being one out of six, even odds. Dice one rolled again got me, as you might think by now. The odds of me getting picked was one out of five players, and one out of six possible choices.

Dice two was an easier feat, and it rolled Imat. Right now that was one out of six possible choices, and the odds of him being picked were pretty average being that every player had one bid.

Rolling a dice that would've had more rerolls than players would've been stupid, so I took this to a simple heads or tails coin flip. Imat was heads, I was tails. It was even odds, entirely fair at 50/50. So, I flipped, and it came up tails.

Believe this story or not, there's not enough proof I rigged it IMO. Anybody can simply go offline and fabricate a story like this but who would really vote for themselves anyway?

- for vouching for mafia player

Already discussed.

[Incognito]

Near, I've read up on your current reads of people and I'm a bit confused here. It seems like you're reading a number of people as town but the reasons you've given just don't jibe well with what you've said so far in this game.

Your reason for labeling me as town is because I've gone after you for quite a bit of Day 1. You seem to apply that same level of reasoning to Imat as well since you referenced his Post 123 in which he contemplates the possibility of you being scum. So in essence, you've labeled two people as town just because of the fact that they found

you

to be suspicious. Interestingly though you labeled jerubbaal as scummy earlier because he thought you were scum as well (Post 110).

Can you please explain these inconsistencies?

I don't entirely agree with your read on jerubbaal but I will admit that I, too, was finding jerubbaal suspicious early on but for slightly different reasons from you. I thought his usage of night-time WIFOM against Lowell to try to figure out the reason behind the NK choice was a bit eyebrow raising and so I questioned him about it. His response was decent, and his contribution has been pretty good so far so I decided not to pursue it further.

[Imat]

Woot, heads FTW!

But, on topic again, I don't like Near's post 164. Every player on his Scum list is there based on other people's evidence. 3 out of 4 players on his Town list were, according to him, there for basically no reason. I'm on there for "The benefit of the doubt," and while I enjoy being thought of as Pro-Town, any player putting somebody on their Pro-Town list for that reason is Scummy. He openly calls Incognito Scummy and only provides Scummy evidence, yet he is on the Town list. Thats even worse than my "Benefit of the Doubt." MP is on the Town list for being able to state the exact name, the fact that he could only do so after being reminded of the Mod's post doesn't figure into this at all. XreyOX is the only player on Near's Town list with relatively sound Pro-Town reasons. Otherwise the list seems to be buddying up to certain players and distancing from others. What disturbs me is the fact that he buddies up to the players who attack him. Question mark?

Also, the idea of a list doesn't sit well with me at all. A list helps Scum more than Town more often than not. If you want me to explain that, I'll do so, but the reasons seem almost obvious to me.

[Near]

But, on topic again, I don't like Near's post 164. Every player on his Scum list is there based on other people's evidence.

Incorrect. I don't think anyone has yet expressed his/her suspicion of jerubbaal. And my reason for suspecting Lowell is different. At any rate, I don't think this is very relevant to what you are trying to say

3 out of 4 players on his Town list were, according to him, there for basically no reason. I'm on there for "The benefit of the doubt,"

Do not put words in my mouth. I gave a reason for why I think you are not a scum. It's good that you are trying to make a point, but be accurate.

and while I enjoy being thought of as Pro-Town, any player putting somebody on their Pro-Town list for that reason is Scummy.

Why? Because it looks like I am trying to buddy up with people? Isn't this another WIFOM situation? Saying I think someone is less likely to be a scum COULD be an attempt to buddy up, but it could also be an expression of my opinion. And if buddying up is considered scummy, scums would avoid it.

Anyway, someone (I forget who) had asked me to analyze everyone and what I think about them. I didn't do quite that, but I gave opinion on most of the players here.

He openly calls Incognito Scummy and only provides Scummy evidence, yet he is on the Town list. Thats even worse than my "Benefit of the Doubt."

True, but I did mention this in my post - that it is interesting that I get the feeling that they are town even though they accuse me.

MP is on the Town list for being able to state the exact name, the fact that he could only do so after being reminded of the Mod's post doesn't figure into this at all.

Let me ask you, do you think MP is a scum? I think the fact that he was confused when answering his role, as opposed to saying something else that's close to "townsperson" is a good evidence that he's not a scum.

XreyOX is the only player on Near's Town list with relatively sound Pro-Town reasons. Otherwise the list seems to be buddying up to certain players and distancing from others. What disturbs me is the fact that he buddies up to the players who attack him. Question mark?

Funny how at least one person in my scum list (jerubbaal) accuses me of OMGUSing and two people on my non-scum list accuse me of trying to buddy up with them. Neither. I am expressing my opinion regardless how speculative (as brought up by jerubbaal) and scummy you might find my reasons to be.

Also, the idea of a list doesn't sit well with me at all. A list helps Scum more than Town more often than not. If you want me to explain that, I'll do so, but the reasons seem almost obvious to me.

I think it can help the scum help decide who they should kill. For example, I would guess that it might seem more advantageous for scums to kill a person who no one suspects is mafia than someone everyone is suspicious of. (Is this what you are thinking of?) But on the other hand, when this logic is applied once more to the night time killing pattern, it could become another instance of WIFOM.

On the other hand, such list can help the townies substantial evidence on who is acting scummy and who is not.

[Near]

Near, I've read up on your current reads of people and I'm a bit confused here. It seems like you're reading a number of people as town but the reasons you've given just don't jibe well with what you've said so far in this game.

Your reason for labeling me as town is because I've gone after you for quite a bit of Day 1. You seem to apply that same level of reasoning to Imat as well since you referenced his Post 123 in which he contemplates the possibility of you being scum. So in essence, you've labeled two people as town just because of the fact that they found

you

to be suspicious. Interestingly though you labeled jerubbaal as scummy earlier because he thought you were scum as well (Post 110).

Can you please explain these inconsistencies?

Yeah. But I did express this dilemma in my original post. I said I find it interesting why I find some attacks on myself as scummy and others non-scummy. Obviously, my views on people's scuminess change over time and as i re-read my posts.

I don't entirely agree with your read on jerubbaal but I will admit that I, too, was finding jerubbaal suspicious early on but for slightly different reasons from you. I thought his usage of night-time WIFOM against Lowell to try to figure out the reason behind the NK choice was a bit eyebrow raising and so I questioned him about it. His response was decent, and his contribution has been pretty good so far so I decided not to pursue it further.

Shrug. I still find it suspicious.

[gorckat]

My daughter had some stuff to do on the computer last night, so I'm hoping to finish my note-taking this morning. I'll post as soon as I can.

[XReyoX]

jerrubaal was the first person to question mafiaplayer for his role. I have not yet played with mafiaplayer in my previous games, but jerrubaal seems to think he's trying to mess up this game. then comes up with a clever, yet not fool-proof way to confirm MP's vanilla claim. at the same time though, he seems to be pretty convinced that MP is vanilla. plus this post:

Top left corner of the box in your role PM, what is it? You have something there, I guarantee.

Ok, here's yet another speculation by me, but isn't he trying too hard to look townie here?

Both scum and town can try hard to proof themselves townie. There is no "too hard" in my book so I don't think it is a scumtell. Jerubbaal thinks MP is messing up this game and I agree with that. It is obvious.
His attempt on ask MP for his role to see if MP is lying seem fine, although getting the answer right doesn't means MP is town. It means if MP is town, MP is probably vanilla. Thats it. Jerubbaal being the first to ask doesn't make him scum either. First, second or third.... makes no difference to me.

---

Near:
Asking me to ignore some of your posts doesn't seem right. Even if it is a whole lot of rubbish, I'd like you to tell me where it has come from. It is scummy to throw something out here and wish someone can back you up or finding reasons for you.

---

Sammich's #175 seems fabricated to me. Voting for himself doesn't make it more believable.

- for vouching for mafia player

Already discussed.

Where?

---

Sammich:
I'm sorry if I've missed your answer somewhere. Why did you claim, why do you think that it was a good time to claim townie and what made you think you want to vouch for mafiaplayer because you are a townie.

[Incognito]

Um, guys? Since when is voting for yourself with a real pair of dice a scum-tell? The other part about vouching for Mafiaplayer I'll give credit for but rolling dice? Come on~

[Lowell]

Wow this a heavy posting game. I like it.

[gorckat]

Hah! jerubbaal rolled Lowell

I'll be on lunch soon, and will hopefully finish my notes and post for real.

[XReyoX]

Um, guys? Since when is voting for yourself with a real pair of dice a scum-tell?

Not a scumtell, but not a good play either.

[Incognito]

Um, guys? Since when is voting for yourself with a real pair of dice a scum-tell?

Not a scumtell, but not a good play either.

I don't get it. Why is it not a good play? Are you placing that much weight behind the random voting stage?

[XReyoX]

I don't get it. Why is it not a good play? Are you placing that much weight behind the random voting stage?

No, I don't put much weight behind it. But my point is that the random voting stage serves to create some discussion. A series of joke votes get people talking. Dicevoting is not scummy. However, it shows that the player who dicevote is either too lazy or do not want to take any responsibility for his vote. The dicevote also does not provoke any discussion at all. Just imagine if everyone dicevote at the beginning, where shall we go from there? It's something I've learnt recently. Joke vote>dicevote

[Incognito]

Oh, so you take issue with all kinds of dice voting? I thought it was more because of the fact that he used actual, real-life dice as opposed to the ones provided by the site.

[Near]

Oh, so you take issue with all kinds of dice voting? I thought it was more because of the fact that he used actual, real-life dice as opposed to the ones provided by the site.

Dice voting in real life

IS

scummy.

Thinking/setting up a complicated system to decide on who to vote between 11 people in real life to accomplish nothing

IS

scummy or the person in action is psychotic.

[Near]

Near:
Asking me to ignore some of your posts doesn't seem right. Even if it is a whole lot of rubbish, I'd like you to tell me where it has come from. It is scummy to throw something out here and wish someone can back you up or finding reasons for you.

I wouldn't say this is scummy. I think it would be more scummy to try to come up with a reason to defend what I meant. It's probably not that hard.

ANyway, I will watch myself in the future. I have a tendency to sometimes post hunches/speculations without concrete evidence. I still find the three people I listed under scummy list very scummy.

[XReyoX]

I think sammich lied because it is almost impossible to decide all the roll correspondence, roll the dice, flip a coin and post, all in 1 minute.

[Y]

I was the one pointing the dice vote and the lack of that information that kind of vote gives us is my main reason.

@ Lowell: What? The post you refer to as coaching was supposed to make him talk. I don't know if I'm the cause, but he's talking. I got what I wanted.

@ Near:

i re-read the posts already and i get some hunches but i have no good suspect i can back up with logic. give me some more time.

Yet you've already voted at least three different people.

gorckat, replacing into my game again, with destructor... Interesting.

[Lowell]

As an aside, can those geniuses who think dice-roll voting is useful just, you know, agree to eliminate THEMSELVES from the set of choices for said dice? I'd just as soon not have to sit through another discussion of whether self-voting is/is not a scumtell. Like, ever.

[XReyoX]

I think we should start whether lying is scumtell tho.

[Near]

@ Near:

i re-read the posts already and i get some hunches but i have no good suspect i can back up with logic. give me some more time.

Yet you've already voted at least three different people.

I am new on this site and I have not yet finished a game yet. I am playing 5 different games right now, and I find it interesting that people find early voting/vote hopping scummy. It's not even that I was trying to start a wagon or tried to put someone at very heavy pressure. I would need to adjust my actions in the future to try to look less scummy.

[Near]

I think we should start whether lying is scumtell tho.

I am also quite sure that Sammich lied about his dice rolling. But he could have admitted that he didn't actually roll the dice (and that he lied), yet he continues to lie and defends something that could be very trivial.

Well, I could be wrong and he actually rolled the dice, but I find that hard to believe.

[Near]

I was the one pointing the dice vote and the lack of that information that kind of vote gives us is my main reason.

@ Lowell: What? The post you refer to as coaching was supposed to make him talk. I don't know if I'm the cause, but he's talking. I got what I wanted.

Which post is that?

Immediate hunch: Lowell and Y partners?
Concrete evidence: none.

[XReyoX]

Well, I could be wrong and he actually rolled the dice, but I find that hard to believe.

The point I'm trying to make is that I highly doubt sammich rolled the dice.

Look at the time difference between the post where he messed up the code and the post where he said he rolled a dice and vote for himself.

Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 4:04 pm Post subject: 10
Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 4:05 pm Post subject: 11

1 minute.

So. in 1 minute, he
1) messed up the code and decide to do it manually
2) find 2 dice and a coin
3) assign 11 people and a reroll to each number
4) roll dice 1
5) reroll dice 1 again
6) roll dice 2
7) flip a coin
8) look up and see what he has got
9) type out his next post and submit it.

[XReyoX]

^ now you've got 1 minute, try it!