Mini 539: Game over

[Incognito]

And please don't lynch kuribo or the masons...

Oh goodness, no. Me and SSK are IMMORTAL. Didn't I tell you people we're un-day-killable?

[Gorgon]

Jester came up innocent, obviously.

I'm not going to explain my investigation of Jester any more than I already have. There's no way I can make it more credible than it is.

Xtoxm still hasn't answered my question, which I find f*cking insulting, and this one more reason to thrash him once the game is over, if he's town. Seriously, you're playing like a dick if you're, Xtoxm. Absolutely refusing to consider the possiblity that you're wrong is stupid, and again, I will taunt you no end over this once the game is over, if you're town. Just bear this in mind. It will be fun - if the town wins, that is. If the town loses, and you're part of it, I will hold you largely responsible. Refusing to answer reasonable questions and to explain your suspicions is antitown.

That said, I have gone over all of Jester's posts. I wish I'd done so sooner, since there's a lot of interesting stuff there - stuff that's enlightening to read. I recommend everyone else does this - Jester is very insightful at times.

Jester was quite suspicious of Hjallti, and had good reasons for it. I agreed with him on this at one point (but of course, my opinion about anything in this game is probably a moot point, and will remain so until my death, or the end of the game, whichever comes first).

My gut right now, coupled with my review of Jester's posts, tells me Hjallti is scum, and that Xtoxm is a misguided townie. On a personal level, I would like to lynch Xtoxm, but that's besides the point. Xtoxm is just too 'obvious' of a lynch. I feel his behaviour is most consistent with a townie who's dead sure he's right. If he's town, Xtoxm was dead on about Shteven yesterday (even if he refuses to explain why), so I could somewhat understand if he's full of himself now. Hjallti, however, is more slippery, and his behaviour is consistent with that of scum who doesn't want to rock the boat too much.

One thing about Justin's comments bothers me though ... Justin, a GF doesn't really have a great incentive to draw an investigation onto himself, as the cop typically won't reveal his results until he has a guilty, or under duress (as I did). There is therefore somewhat limited value to be found in having the cop investigate you - although of course as soon as the cop is forced to reveal his results, the benefits are plain. This undermines the case against Hjallti somewhat, unfortunately.

I do, however, see where Justin is coming from here. I agree that if Justin is scum, he has done an amazing job in this game, and kind of deserves a win. The same applies to kuribo. I do not think that they are scum, and really hope they're not.

I think Hjallti's suggestion to no lynch is a scumtell. Why would you want to do that as town while known masons remain alive? On this point, my gut tells me that Hjallti is trying to buy time so that he can kill me tonight. Also, the fact that Jester was so suspicious of Hjallti might indicate that Hjallti wanted him out of the picture. The WIFOM side of the coin says that Jester was killed in order to get the town to think along these lines, but that's WIFOM for you ...

Regarding the Jester kill, note that Hjallti is doing his best to cast suspicion towards Justin. While I agree with his sentiments somewhat, I see a lot of puzzle pieces coming together if I assume Hjallti is scum - killing one of the two guys whom Claus listed as Naughty, leaving only one on that list left alive, and then going after him and trying to get him lynched is a perfectly logical thing to do, if a little obvious.

I have therefore made my decision. I agree with where the town is going in that Xtoxm and Hjallti should be lynched, but I think Hjallti should be lynched first. I think it just might win us the game.

Vote: Hjallti

Again, my word is probably not worth much in this game at this point, but these are my thoughts nevertheless. If the rest of the town disagrees with me, I will go along with lynching Xtoxm.

[Gorgon]

Bah, I hadn't noticed this when I wrote the above:

Ok..I think I realised the *slight* advantage of not lynching Gorgon today.

If he doesnt get a scum result I say to lynch him, whatever the reason may be...He's not trustable enough...

I guess Hj would be the next one.

This is a pretty reasonable post, and Xtoxm gains townie points for it. I've said before that I would have less of a problem with being lynched tomorrow than with being lynched today, if it comes down to that. I also fully understand that I have little credibility with the town.

Yeah, I think Xtoxm is town.

[Xtoxm]

Sorry if you honestly think i'm being a dick, that's not my intention. I just think you are the last mafiate.

[Gorgon]

Sorry if you honestly think i'm being a dick, that's not my intention. I just think you are the last mafiate.

Yeah well, I somewhat withdrew that statement of mine in my second post, and I apologise.

[Xtoxm]

And I do admit it's not 100% ...But when I become sure of something I argue vehemenently for it.

[Xtoxm]

Sorry if you honestly think i'm being a dick, that's not my intention. I just think you are the last mafiate.

Yeah well, I somewhat withdrew that statement of mine in my second post, and I apologise.

[kuribo]

I dunno. I'd probably go with kuribo at that point and if JP ends up being scum then bravo, Justin. You deserved the fucking win anyway with that awesome busing work while not even ever getting a chance to speak with Claus as he replaced and being on his Naughty list and all.

No, I absolutely hate the idea that if scum plays well then they should be handed the win.

Sorry, but I think the fact that I started the bandwagon on Shteven, and kept it going at great personal risk to myself--- that should kinda speak about my alignment. At the time I pointed out his slip and started my case against him, no one else was suspicious of him--- even me--- I was after Xtoxm at the time.

There would have been no good reason for me to bus Shteven and sacrifice a scumpartner who had been coasting along just fine until then.

[kuribo]

Gorgon is right--- I haven't liked alot of Hjallti's play throughout the game, he fought tooth and nail in Shteven's defense, and now when he posts his "plan" for the town to follow, he conveniently has us assume the scum will forget to NK our claimed cop and brings himself to the endgame.

Not liking it one bit.

Unvote, Vote: Hjallti

[kuribo]

No, I absolutely hate the idea that if scum plays well then they should be handed the win.

And by this I mean that I'm going to do my best to make damn sure that no matter which one of you is scum, and no matter how hard you play, the town gets a W.

[Xtoxm]

No, I absolutely hate the idea that if scum plays well then they should be handed the win.

And by this I mean that I'm going to do my best to make damn sure that no matter which one of you is scum, and no matter how hard you play, the town gets a W.

I strongly agree with this.

If by that statement what you mean is "JP has looked to me suffiently pro-town for me not to lynch him ever" then I accept that, it's how I feel about Kuribo.

[Incognito]

No, I absolutely hate the idea that if scum plays well then they should be handed the win.

And by this I mean that I'm going to do my best to make damn sure that no matter which one of you is scum, and no matter how hard you play, the town gets a W.

I strongly agree with this.

If by that statement what you mean is "JP has looked to me suffiently pro-town for me not to lynch him ever" then I accept that, it's how I feel about Kuribo.

My comment was sarcasm. Obviously I don't want the town to lose this game either especially with the awesome position we're in right now; it seems next to impossible for the town to lose. My point is I find Justin Playfair to be a very unlikely scum candidate in this game. The only people who

really

make sense to me as being scum are either Hjallti or Gorgon.

Having said that,

unvote

for now.

[Hjallti]

he conveniently has us assume the scum will forget to NK our claimed cop and brings himself to the endgame.

Not liking it one bit.

Unvote, Vote: Hjallti

First of all I never said scum would forget to NK Gorgon. I just said that whoever thinks we have already won is wrong because there is one line out for a scenario that could be caused in two ways and doesn't give us an angle on who will be killed. I never stated that scenario as the only possible or even the most likely. If stating that this scenario is the most likely is a scumtell, then Incognito is scum. I can only congratulate you with that conclusion.

I do think your town, so your blatant misrepresentationS of what I said are propably misinterpretations rather than convenient lies.
and I do think you need reading lessons: I just writed down a couple of scenarios with names available and pointed out that the names could change. I clearly stated that Justin Xtoxm and myself are interchangeable in these scenarios but just started of with a Xtoxm lynch because he was leading the vote count. It is at least short sighted to think that is a scumtell.

Look kuribo I don't like you playstyle a bit. I thought you were wrong about Shteven, and thought you were scum, I was wrong and I have admitted that you are wrong. At this point I do believe you are town, but keep in mind we are not sure.

I understand you don't like my playstyle, I can live with that. We were on differnet points concerning Shteven and I was wrong. But please explain to me what you think is a scumtell, because with your vote at this point has been totally unsubstantiated.

Gorgon, I don't see how you say I cast suspicion on Justin

regarding the Jester-kill

. I clearly stated that I have a MotR reading of Justin. In fact with only one scum left I don't think Justin is scum. I also don't see any puzzle pieces falling together, and you probably also not, because the assumption you say they make them fall together is wrong.

Actually I don't care if I am lynched to day, if the alternative is lynching Xtoxm, because I do believe the result stays the same, we go to night with 5:1 and Gorgon is the center of the actions with 3 possible outcomes: Gorgon is dead, Gorgon is alive with a innocent, Gorgon is alive with a guilty. Unfortunately the first and the second doesn't give us enough information to win the game. Only the third would finish the game, either in one or two days regarding Gorgons alignment (note that we also still might have something else than a 9:3 start configuration, but the meta from Incognito on Nanosaurus might be enough here to forget those). Therefor it is stupid at this point to be willing to lynch a player that might be scum with the excuse that a mislynch still is no problem.

So Gorgon if you are cop and you mislynch today (as you seem to be easily willing to do), you have to investigate right or you might be losing the game for town.

If I get lynched today, I would suggest you investigate Justin, rather than Xtoxm.

I also want to add that scum doesn't loose any chances by leaving Gorgon alive tomorrow, he is not certainly scum.

[Xtoxm]

If you didn't have such a bulletproof claim...lol...

[Incognito]

If you didn't have such a bulletproof claim...lol...

lol. Do I seem scummy right now or something?

[Hjallti]

Incognito, you have any reason to say I would make sense in being scum (except for not having any reason why I would be town, which is the case for you, MafiaSSK and kuribo, at least)?

[Xtoxm]

If you didn't have such a bulletproof claim...lol...

lol. Do I seem scummy right now or something?

Seems like you're trying to get just anyone lynched

[Incognito]

Incognito, you have any reason to say I would make sense in being scum (except for not having any reason why I would be town, which is the case for you, MafiaSSK and kuribo, at least)?

Yes, I'll get more detailed when I'm at home. Still at work.

[Incognito]

Okay. Instead of just focusing on Hjallti, I'm going to stop being lazy and I'll be going from the very start of the game to look at notable interactions between players alive today (alignment unknowns) and players alive earlier (alignment knowns). I'll be going alphabetically trying to find interesting interactions during this reread. I feel like this game hasn't really demonstrated me at my best while being aligned on the side of the town; I feel more like Incog-lazytown about this game since tbh, a lot of the wordiness of this game went over my head O_O but blah, here I go.

[Incognito]

Oh P.S. This won't be a PBPA but I'll be going player by player giving each player his own post in the next five posts.

[Incognito]

charter/Gorgon

Page 1

- Nothing notable. Random votes MafiaSSK-town. Mentions meta about DS-town.

Page 2

- Didn't post.

Page 3

- 1) Unvotes MafiaSSK-town after being asked about his random vote by Ythill-town.
2) The infamous case against Apyadg-town for unvoting MafiaSSK.

Sidenotes that something in the back of his mind is telling him that ChronX-scum is scum.

Page 4

- 1) Mentions that he feels like MafiaSSK-town's vote was more likely to be a joke vote than a serious one. Mentions that Apyadg-town never really responded to his main reason for voting against him.
2) Asks for clarification from Ythill-town about why he listed him as definitive town.
3) Gives reason for why he feels SSK-town isn't likely to be scum but then concludes by saying that he very well could be though.

Also mentions that he's tempted to vote against Northjayhawk-scum as well but gives him an OUT by mentioning that he's probably exhibiting newb-tells as opposed to scum-tells if anything (interesting point which I'll get back to).

Page 5

- 1) Again questions Apyadg-town about why he can't think of good questions to come up with in the game to help build his own case against MafiaSSK-town.
2) Questions Northjayhawk-scum about something related to Ythill's town or scum list.

Page 6

- Responds to Ythill-town's question about his read of Incog-town. Provides a very fence-sitting response about me.

Page 7 through 20

- Nothing.

Page 21

- Gorgon replaces in.

Page 22

- Mentions suspicions. Thinks Apyadg-town and Xtoxm would be good lynch choices. Mentions that SSK-town and Incog-town looked suspicious so it's good that they claimed masons.

Page 23

- Discusses my mason claim.

Page 24

- Mentions that Shteven-scum's knowledge of there being 3 scum is a weak tell and mentions that he's leaning town on both kuribo and Shteven.

Page 25

- 1) Pokes head in for a second.
2) Elaborates more on his suspicions linking Xtoxm with ChronX/Claus-scum. Also elaborates suspicions linking Ho1den/Hjallti with ChronX/Claus-scum but plays down these suspicions since he notes Ho1den's early treatment of ChronX <<<--- This is a very good point and it's one that leads me to believe that Ho1den and therefore Hjallti are most likely not scum with Claus/ChronX. Elaborates on suspicions of Claus-scum/Shteven-scum but again plays down those suspicions by mentioning that Claus-scum could have been buddying up to Shteven-scum. Mentions other suspicions but dismisses most of them. The main suspicion he sticks with Xtoxm.

Basically, this is one of Gorgon's more insightful posts. The only person he seems to be most suspicious of in this post is Xtoxm, and he seems to give everyone else an out to explain why they may be town instead of scum. It's certainly one of Gorgon's townier sounding posts.

Page 26

- Post 640 and Post 641 both strike me as seemingly pro-town as well. He admits to Jester-town that his "damning" case against Apyadg-town wasn't as damning as he initially thought. He still leans town on Shteven-scum and becomes intrigued by Jester-town's case against Hjallti while asking for input from players about his own case against Xtoxm.

Page 27

- Gives long-winded explainations as to why he doesn't buy the case against Shteven-scum made by Jester-town and kuribo.

Page 28

- Here's what's interesting though. It's here on Page 28 where Gorgon provides a new post that summarizes his read of the players. What's interesting about this page is Gorgon now flips his read on Shteven-scum to read as "looking less town" and Xtoxm as "looking slightly more town". This was the page where I re-popped into the thread voicing some concern about Shteven's content asking him to explain an inconsistency I found. Did Gorgon realize that distancing at that point might be a good idea?

Page 29

- Votes for Xtoxm?

Page 30

- Questions why I voted for Jester-town mentioning that he's been looking more and more town to him.

And then came Day 3.

Some conclusions:

If Gorgon is scum, he's certainly better at it than charter was. The interesting things I found about charter were the following: 1) He tried to give Northjayhawk-scum an out against Ythill-town early on by mentioning that he might be exhibiting newb-tells as opposed to scum-tells. I find this interesting because he didn't give Apyadg-town this same out when he built his case against him despite the fact that Apyadg was also a newbie.

2) That comment about ChronX possibly being scum irritates me and it's exactly the kind of comment I would expect to be said by one scum in relation to his scum buddy without bringing more attention to him.

About Gorgon: The above-mentioned posts where I list as townie-sounding do intrigue me and could point to him actually being the cop. He seemed open-minded in these posts instead of forceful and accusatory. There were some contradictions following that though: After mentioning that he didn't see the case against Shteven, on the very next page he lists him as looking less town and lists Xtoxm as looking more town. And then on the page after that, he votes for Xtoxm. I don't know what to make of these later day actions but he claimed cop so we'll assume he's the cop at least until tomorrow.

Next up: Hjallti/Ho1den

[Incognito]

My eyes hurt lol.

Does anyone else think that going about this the way I've done for charter/Gorgon is actually helpful or should I simplify this somehow? Any suggestions would be nice because this is rather tedious. x_x I'm thinking about just focusing on the interactions between players and the people we now know to be scum (Shteven and Claus/ChronX).

[Xtoxm]

Looks like a lot of work Incog.

[Hjallti]

I sure think this is interesting and good. If I had time at hands (like I had 10 years back) I would be probably doing the same thing. But it is a big task you set yourself.

[kuribo]

But please explain to me what you think is a scumtell, because with your vote at this point has been totally unsubstantiated.

No, it hasn't, I explained why I was voting you.