Mini 568 - Nubigena (Game over!)

[Ripley]

OK, first welcome to the game, Ripley. Good to play in a game with you again. =)

You too!

Many recent criticisms of Near sounded a bit contrived[...]

Which criticisms in particular did you feel sounded contrived?

I've mentioned quite a few of these already. There were the comments made by Imat in Post 177 and you yourself in Post 176 (I talked about this already in Post 244.) There is the criticism from a number of people of Near for pursuing a matter they personally wish to be dropped or consider irrelevant. He has repeatedly said he has a reason for his questioning and will explain it when Sammich eventually answers his question:

Completely wrong. Once Sammich answers my question and I present my view, I think you will believe me. That is, you might still say my test was not very useful depending on how Sammich answers, but I am confident that townies will find my explanation genuine.

Other things. This more recent attack from Y just isn't true:

I believe Near saw a growing wagon and decided to jump in, using the most recent accusation.

Near was already voting Sammich for the "vouching for MP" incident at the time Sammich produced the dice roll saga. He voted him in Post 73, then after a brief skirmish with Imat, revotes Sammich in Post 89, commenting "back to my original suspect". This vote was still in place when Sammich makes his post 175 (the dice roll exposition). You cannot jump in to a wagon you're already on.

Then, earlier, there was this from jerubbaal:

Near, I made it quite clear that the meta evidence I cited to vote Lowell the first time was extremely minor. Do learn to recognize sarcasm in type, it makes the game much more fun when people don't get anal about it.

This is a bit different from the other examples in that jerubbaal is responding to a theory of Near's regarding his (jerubbaal's) possible scumminess, and people are naturally a bit more animated in that situation, but all the same it seemed a surprisingly sharp rebuke, and I agreed with Near where in Post 168 he quotes jerubbaal's two posts on this subject (the Lowell/avinashv meta) and can find no trace of sarcasm in the second, longer quote.

And of course MP was happy to put him L-1 for a daft reason. You can't attach much weight to this since MP would probably vote for almost anything. But still, it was a vote.

Now, none of these things on their own would necessarily be a big deal, but if several different people are making what seem to me to be weak, dubious or invalid criticisms of a player who's already under suspicion, that's a danger sign to me. I could see exactly where Near was coming from when he said "At this point i almost feel like there are 5 scums in this game." I'm aware that this is not the popular view but to me he comes across as genuine, and believing he's on to something. He's refused to back down under considerable pressure.

I had some stuff to say about Sammich but it'll have to wait till later now. Maybe by then we'll have a response to Near, and about the "night start" remarks.

[Near]

Ripley, you write well. Thanks for being able to illustrate/defend my point of view better than I could have.

[Lowell]

Prod received. Sorry all, left for the weekend.

[Y]

I still feel like Near is staying on that wagon just because he thinks leaving it wouldn't worse than staying on it without a really good reason.

[jerubbaal]

Near, I actually agree with you on the relevance of the dice-rolling thing. I don't think he's been back on since you phrased your question clearly.


Rip, I did have a reason for placing the vote on Lowell, but it wasn't anything I would take to the gallows. If I got a reaction which was out of character with the seriousness of the charge, I would take that as scummy, but the charge itself had little weight.

I don't believe I ever used Near's inability to read my sarcasm as an attack against him. A rebuke, perhaps, because it's really not fun when people can't understand sarcasm, but this has nothing to do with any evaluation of Near's scumminess so far.

[Y]

EBWOP:
"Wouldn't" should be "would be".

[Sammich]

I got more negative comments for pursuing this "useless" dice-roll incident than I received support. I am pursuing this because I think this is relevant.

Why the heck isn't Sammich answering my questions? Why is he not answering anyone else's questions?

Maybe because I have other things to do than sit at the computer and speculate about some user rolling a dice?

I will get back to you all friday. I have some family business to attend to.

[Near]

I got more negative comments for pursuing this "useless" dice-roll incident than I received support. I am pursuing this because I think this is relevant.

Why the heck isn't Sammich answering my questions? Why is he not answering anyone else's questions?

Maybe because I have other things to do than sit at the computer and speculate about some user rolling a dice?

I will get back to you all friday. I have some family business to attend to.

Sammich, if you have been reading the posts in this game, it shouldn't take you more than 15 minutes answer my question. If you have not been reading the posts, you should. Else you should volunteer to find a replacement.

It feels like Sammich is trying to let this "dice" incident die down by avoiding to answer my question until the investigation moves on to other things. I am not sure whether to just say what I want to say about Sammich or wait. We don't have a deadline yet, do we?

[XReyoX]

Maybe because I have other things to do than sit at the computer and speculate about some user rolling a dice?

Maybe you should pay attention to the thread and put some effort into answering the questions. They don't get solved automatically when all you do is avoid them. You should know where the problem lies when people are calling out on you.

[Imat]

Ok, not to say move on, but we should consider multitasking right about now. We can't sit here and stew about the same thing whilst waiting for Sammich to return, lets find more leads and follow up on them, remembering to keep whatever it is you want to question Sammich about in the back of your mind until he returns.

@Ripley: I don't think we can dismiss the arguments against Near's list as much as you want. It doesn't seem at all odd to you that he put most of the players who attacked him on his Town list? And its not just that he puts those who attacks him on there, he openly states that the attacks against him aren't very good at all, yet we're still on the Town list. Or, at least, thats why I'm on there. I can't and won't ignore that, and neither should you. "Contrived" is not the right word for it.

In fact, Ripley's downplaying the significance of this kind of alarms me. Asking to ignore the dice thing is completely reasonable. Asking to think nothing of the list is downright suspicious.

[destructor]

.::] Vote Count [::.

Mafiaplayer (1)

- XReyoX

Sammich (2)

- Near, gorckat

Near (3)

- Lowell, Y, Mafiaplayer

Not Voting (5) - Ripley, Imat, Incognito, jerubaal, Sammich

Six

votes makes a lynch.

[gorckat]

@Y: Earlier, you said you had a thought about Sammich's claim that you were saving for later. Since he hasn't answered Near or XReyoX about why he did it and how he can vouch for MP or Ripley's Night start questions, what do you think of it now? What did you think then?

@Imat: Does an attack have to be well formed for a person to be town?

[Y]

I'd prefer not to comment on this at the moment, unless you all really want to hear it. I believe it might hurt the town if not done at the right timing.

[Lowell]

I'm having second thoughts about Y. He's no longer atop my scum list.

[Y]

I'm having second thoughts about Y. He's no longer atop my scum list.

Thanks. I'm so relieved now.
Could you please give us some insight about who is at the top of your list and why?

[Near]

I'm having second thoughts about Y. He's no longer atop my scum list.

Thanks. I'm so relieved now.
Could you please give us some insight about who is at the top of your list and why?

LOL. Y, you didn't have a single vote on you.

Two people who currently has their votes on me says to each other "I love you"...

[jerubbaal]

Wow, you just really don't get sarcasm, do you?

[Incognito]

There were the comments made by Imat in Post 177 and you yourself in Post 176 (I talked about this already in Post 244.)

For what it's worth, Post 176 wasn't contrived criticism - it was an inconsistency that I noticed and felt the need to question Near about, especially since there were other things that I didn't exactly like about Near's play prior to that post. I need to read through the rest of the criticism you've cited to see if I get the same feeling from it that you do, and I'll try and post my feelings about more recent stuff later as well.

[Ripley]

For what it's worth, Post 176 wasn't contrived criticism - it was an inconsistency that I noticed and felt the need to question Near about, especially since there were other things that I didn't exactly like about Near's play prior to that post.

"Contrived" maybe wasn't the best choice of word, my dictionary defines it as "artifically intricate" which isn't what I meant. I just meant that I thought the criticisms were weak.

I can't and won't ignore that, and neither should you.

I haven't been telling people what they should or shouldn't ignore, though plenty of that has been going on. I actually stated I thought it was a useful post. I simply disagreed with your interpretation. I don't see the town list as obvious buddying, as it seems you do. As for the other charge of distancing, you already conceded that you had no actual problem with the scum list and just threw that in as an opposite to buddying.

Maybe because I have other things to do than sit at the computer and speculate about some user rolling a dice?

I will get back to you all friday. I have some family business to attend to.

I love it when a guy who's signed up for an online game starts sniping at the people who are actually trying to play, with the whole "you sad losers need to get a life" routine.

It feels like Sammich is trying to let this "dice" incident die down by avoiding to answer my question until the investigation moves on to other things. I am not sure whether to just say what I want to say about Sammich or wait. We don't have a deadline yet, do we?

Unless it's been over-ridden by a subsequent post I missed, we have an extendable deadline of April 2nd.

Mod

: is there any formal definition of "extendable"? Will this be determined by you according to the level of posting, or by requests from players, or else how?

I'd prefer if players who have things to say regarding Sammich, which they don't want to reveal yet, hold on until they think the revelation will be most useful, unless there are deadline constraints.

[destructor]

Mod

: is there any formal definition of "extendable"? Will this be determined by you according to the level of posting, or by requests from players, or else how?

I'll consider an extension on the 26th of March, which is in a week. I'm not in favour of extending the deadline but will be willing to, by a week or so, if enough players want it and the thread maintains its current level of activity. Other circumstances such as players being away from the site or requiring replacement will also be taken into consideration.

[XReyoX]

I had another thought about Near's scumlist. Tbh, it does sound a but like trying to appeal others by saying they are on his townlist in the hope that they would return the favor. I'm not sure if that is classified as buddying up as Imat pointed out.

---

I still feel like Near is staying on that wagon just because he thinks leaving it wouldn't worse than staying on it without a really good reason.

That is possible. However this can't be justified until Near has ended his case on sammich. If he is scum just trying to hang onto his target, it shouls be easy to tell later.

---

I'm having second thoughts about Y. He's no longer atop my scum list.

Lowell, why is that?

---

FTR, this dice debate is useless.

Me also think we should hear what lowell has to say since he thinks what we're discussing is useless.

Lowell, do you care to comment on anything else in the game?

I really hate these kinds of comments that criticize current happenings but do nothing to move us away from that kind of discussion.

[Near]

What do you call a person who is not a scum but wins with a scum and whose wish is to be lynched in order to save scum?

[XReyoX]

What do you call a person who is not a scum but wins with a scum and whose wish is to be lynched in order to save scum?

The mysterious Flying Pig?

[Lowell]

I read back. I have a few more things. Starting from page 6.

I think Sammich and XReyoX are innocent. Sammich, because, even though he's a moron who can't work out the simple math of how to use 2 dice to give an even chance of voting for 11 people, he doesn't strike me a scummy per say.

XReyoX, as much as I don't really care about many of the "points" he brings up, does seem to be the one driving discussion, which is good.

MP I've already said strikes me as being genuine about his role.

unvote, vote gorkat

. I'm not really sure I understand the point of his defense of sammich. It seems like he saw someone in trouble and used it as an opportunity to make himself look good. Couple that with the fact that he doesn't do much (yes, yes, pot, kettle, black, whatever) is good enough.

For those I haven't mentioned, I'm still working on...

[gorckat]

unvote, vote gorkat. I'm not really sure I understand the point of his defense of sammich. It seems like he saw someone in trouble and used it as an opportunity to make himself look good. Couple that with the fact that he doesn't do much (yes, yes, pot, kettle, black, whatever) is good enough.

My defending Sammich was based on a significant amount of weight being put behind crap arguments about how it was impossible for him to have made the die roll in <2 minutes (disbelief about people having dice at the desk, and the list was shown by XReyoX, iirc, to be simply who had posted at the time he rolled).

Note that I'm now voting him for his uncooperation and unwillingness to answer questions about why he felt he could back MP up.

I actually need to re-read from the point I replaced in because I got pretty wound up in Sammich's dice roll and never kept up on my notes.