Mini 568 - Nubigena (Game over!)

[Lowell]

Your voting him now means nothing to me.

[gorckat]

Well...propping him up with a vigorous defense (that I still stand by) only to vote him for reasons I think, iirc, that I was pointing to then as legitimate flaws doesn't make much sense.

If I was scum trying to look good by buddying up to a townie going down, I'd

stay

on the good side wouldn't I?

If you were saying that I was taking a middle road, fence-riding postition in order to go whichever way the wind blew, that would be understandable. But you're not; you're picking and choosing what you want to say is scummy.

Since this is what you're choosing to focus on: Should a townie not defend someone they think is getting a raw deal?

[Incognito]

What do you call a person who is not a scum but wins with a scum and whose wish is to be lynched in order to save scum?

What is the intention of this post?

I'd like to reserve my final judgement about Near until after Sammich gets back and Near finally gets to follow through with this:

It feels like Sammich is trying to let this "dice" incident die down by avoiding to answer my question until the investigation moves on to other things. I am not sure whether to just say what I want to say about Sammich or wait. We don't have a deadline yet, do we?

I still feel like the lying about dice rolling argument is a bit weak and doesn't actually equate to Sammich being scum; the vouching for Mafiaplayer and recent question avoidance does look pretty bad, however. Maybe once Sammich gets back Near could clarify his reasoning for the repeated questioning of Sammich's dice roll.

Lowell again: answer Reyo's post 320, plz? kthx.

[Near]

What do you call a person who is not a scum but wins with a scum and whose wish is to be lynched in order to save scum?

What is the intention of this post?

I want to know what that role is called. Someone answer me please.

I still feel like the lying about dice rolling argument is a bit weak and doesn't actually equate to Sammich being scum; the vouching for Mafiaplayer and recent question avoidance does look pretty bad, however. Maybe once Sammich gets back Near could clarify his reasoning for the repeated questioning of Sammich's dice roll.

Let's start from the beginning. If sammich has indeed rolled the dice in real life to do a random vote, fine. It would make him very slightly suspicious, but it would not be that big of a deal.

Now if Sammich did not roll the dice in real life, but lied about it, again, it would be suspicious but I don't think it's worth voting someone over it. But, if Sammich did not roll the dice, and he's being repeatedly questioned about it, he should tell the truth and admit that he lied. Sure, townies lie too. But scums are much more likely to fabricate a detailed story of what really happened to cover/defend their lies.

It turns out that Sammich was able to recall very detailed description of how he rolled the dice. He remembers which pip represented which person. That the coin came up heads, etc. What I am trying to say is that, if he didn't lie and actually went through with what he said he did, then fine. It's very weird and maybe he has unusually good memories, but it's not enough lynch him.

But

if he lied about it, then he was contemplating how to cover up his lie. To come up with a detailed step by step recollection of what happened 11 days ago. Via the longest post he had written in this game. This is what I find suspicious, and I feel it is a worthy of a vote.

I won't re-summarize all the evidence against Sammich rolling the dice in real life. About 3 or so such points are repeated a few times already mostly by me. I will add one additional evidence/point to this in the next post.

[Incognito]

I want to know what that role is called. Someone answer me please.

I want to say a Jester but I'm pretty sure that's wrong.

But

if he lied about it, then he was contemplating how to cover up his lie. To come up with a detailed step by step recollection of what happened 11 days ago. Via the longest post he had written in this game. This is what I find suspicious, and I feel it is a worthy of a vote.

That's actually an extremely interesting point that I hadn't considered. Now you've got me

really

interested to read your continued questioning of Sammich when he returns.

[Near]

Anyway, even if I I can believe that you only admitted this because you thought not doing so would put you in a danger of getting lynched, STILL, i do not believe you rolled the dice in real life. It's just so unlikely. Since, everyone thinks we should let go of this dice incident, here are my final sets of questions for Sammich. Upon your satisfactory answer, I will let go of this incident. Sammich, please answer:

1. Did you roll the dice in real life?
2. If yes, is your post at #175 an accurate description of what happened?
3. How did you remember which pip on the dice represented who? Did you write this down?

Actually I have one more question after this. But I want to wait for your answers to above first. THanks.

Yes, yes, and no, short term memory is a good thing.

I did briefly mention this in the last post, but I feel like this is worth paying more careful attention to. He's claiming that he was able to remember exactly which pip represented who. And he credits his "short-memory" for it.

Now try to write down 11 random numbers and randomly assign 11 players in this game. Try sitting there for 5 minutes and try to remember which number belonged to who. Do something else for 1 minute, and come back and see how many pairs you can remember. I didn't try this, but I am guessing you wouldn't be able to come up with more than half of them.

The day he recalled what happened was about 10 days after he rolled the dice. Both 1) the detailed description of what Sammich said happened and 2) his credit to his short memory makes me think that there is no chance that he meant to say that he only remembers who came up on the dice and made up everyone else. I think this is impossible to do.

Finally, if you look at:

1. Take two six sided dice. Dice one represents players one through five: Mafiaplayer, Incognito, Lowell, XReyoX, and myself. The sixth number on the die would indicate a reroll. Dice two represented thephantom, the catherder, Fat Tony, Imat, jerubbaal, and you, Near.

The order of this player very closely matches the orders of people who posted on this game. Note that Sammich is the 5th person to post on this game other than avinashv.

Sammich's order:

• Mafiaplayer, Incognito, Lowell, XReyoX, Sammich, thephantom, catherder, FatTony, Imat, Jerubbaal and Near

Order of players posted in this game:

• Mafiaplayer, XReyoX, Lowell, Incognito, Sammich, catherder, Imat, thephantom, Jerubbaal, FatTony, Near

These lists look close enough to think that Sammich was browsing the front page (I don't know why he didn't use the mod's list) to collect the names of players he would add to his story.

[Near]

EDWOP:

I want to clarify by saying that, if Sammich had actually rolled the dice on after the fifth post in this game, he list shouldn't be similar to the order of the players posted in this game. On the fifth of post of the game, when people haven't posted yet, what else do you have to look up players for the game than mod's list:

• Fat_Tony, Imat, Incognito, jerubbaal, Lowell, Mafiaplayer, Near, Sammich, gorckat, the_cat_herder, Ripley, thephantom, XReyoX

As you can see, the orders are completely different.

[Near]

EBWOP:

• Fat_Tony, Imat, Incognito, jerubbaal, Lowell, Mafiaplayer, Near, Sammich, the_cat_herder, thephantom, XReyoX

[XReyoX]

Near summarizes well. Another point I'd like to add is that Sammich can remember all these plus the date he cleared his PM

BUT Not

his rolename. Hell, I don't even remember what I had for dinner a week ago. Compulsive liar?

I just hope people who are neglecting the probability to see where this is coming from.

As much as a liar I think sammich is, I don't think it can tell us his alignment. Those lies doesn't really serve any purpose in favor for the scum I think. Uneccessary, I would say.

[Lowell]

To answer incognito, I think that Y is pushing the analysis along more than a scum would, especially in such a quick-posting game.

[Ripley]

Does anyone really still believe Sammich's dice roll account? I'd have thought Near's latest posts enough to demolish any lingering doubts people might have had.

Near summarizes well. Another point I'd like to add is that Sammich can remember all these plus the date he cleared his PM BUT Not his rolename. Hell, I don't even remember what I had for dinner a week ago. Compulsive liar?

I'd had very real doubts about his "I deleted my PMs 3 days ago." statement too. The unlikely precision of the dating - is this an early example of the tendency to fabricate detail we saw later? And it's all so very convenient, this deletion, when he got the rolename wrong and was challenged on that.

Then this:

The second, jeruubbal's post about Mafiaplayer's rolename was on the 3rd, mine was 2 days afterwards, I wasn't on the fourth, why are you indicating a day's lack of reply is so long?

Here he states he wasn't around on the 4th where in fact his post 43:

How come we're metagaming on page 2?
D:
Is mafiaplayer a jester.

was made on the 4th, at least in most time zones (I don't know where he's located and it's possible I have this wrong). All he really needed to say here was that his post vouching for MP was his, Sammich's, first post since MP posted that he didn't get a role name (which was the first point where Sammich could have realised he needed vouching for). This is the relevant point. But again we have an over-elaborate story.

Another thing pointed out by XReyoX earlier was the total lack of scumhunting by Sammich so far. Then there's the avoidance of questions - we've been waiting for responses from him since I joined the game - and the untruths, and the early unnecessary roleclaim... so many problems. And I'm still bothered by all those "night start" references, which he's chosen not to reply to questions about. Anyway, it's Friday tomorrow, let's see what he produces on his return.

[gorckat]

I believed Sammich based on my own having dice on hand (at home, anyways), and what I thought was the first die being the people who had posted, and the second off the mod list.

I think I misunderstood Reyo or whomever posted that was how they thought Sammich had ordered the dice. I think they were actually saying that's how he got them for his fabrication. (I'm not trying to put those words in anyone's mouth- correct me if I'm wrong.)

[Near]

I believe Sammich is a jester.

Sammich. Cast a vote on someone other than yourself. Could you do that?

[Near]

unvote

[Incognito]

I believe Sammich is a jester.

I disagree with you on this. Sammich mentioned the following about Mafiaplayer very early on:

How come we're metagaming on page 2?
D:
Is mafiaplayer a jester.

This doesn't seem like the type of thing a player with the role of Jester would say. Also I think it's pretty rare for Jesters to exist in mini-normals and knowing destructor, I kinda doubt he would include one in this game.

[Imat]

...Really? A Jester? There aren't anywhere near enough players to even consider a Jester. Even if there were, Why would you want to bring it up in the first place?

Possibly saving Scum partners bacon with a defense that looks reasonable at first but, when thought about, is weaker than any other defense in this game? In fact, the fact that you are pushing Sammich so hard based on not much more than the dice thing makes me feel this is likely. When people started questioning your partner, you jumped right on with them, seeing a chance to confirm your Towniness. However, when people realized there wasn't much reason to lynch him, you retract your attacks and call him the Jester, a weak call in such a small game. I don't like basing evidence off of pairs, but regardless of Sammich's alignment, you have acted Scummy all game IMO.

Vote: Near

I'm also fine voting Sammich, but I think Near is the better option for today.

[Near]

...Really? A Jester? There aren't anywhere near enough players to even consider a Jester. Even if there were, Why would you want to bring it up in the first place?

According to mafia wiki, jester wins if he gets lynched. Therefore, I brought it up. I don't see what is wrong with this.

Possibly saving Scum partners bacon with a defense that looks reasonable at first but, when thought about, is weaker than any other defense in this game? In fact, the fact that you are pushing Sammich so hard based on not much more than the dice thing makes me feel this is likely. When people started questioning your partner, you jumped right on with them, seeing a chance to confirm your Towniness. However, when people realized there wasn't much reason to lynch him, you retract your attacks and call him the Jester, a weak call in such a small game. I don't like basing evidence off of pairs, but regardless of Sammich's alignment, you have acted Scummy all game IMO.

In fact, I had this thought that Sammich was a jester a while ago. That's why I wanted to ask him who he thinks are scums and why. If he comes up with reasonable list and tries to come up with a good evidence to back it up, I would have thought that he was a scum. If he comes up with a list that is completely out of whack, I would have concluded that he was a jester. I was impatient and should have waited until tomorrow for Sammich to respond.

If you look at how Sammich played though, his posts do make sense if he was a jester. His vouching of mafiaplayer, who we all thought was scummy. His saying that he "deleted his pm 3 days ago?" His insistence on sticking to his dice story even when many found it impossible. He doesn't answer people's questions. He decides to "leave" the game in the midst of people suspecting him. It's like he wanted people to vote him and lynch him off. And his asking of MP whether he is a jester I think is an evidence that he thought/knows of existence of jester in this game. What really got me though, is the Post Restriction section in the mafia wiki:

http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Jester
http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php ... estriction

Sammich voted twice in this game period. But he only voted himself. It's like he didn't have the ability to vote on anyone else. Which makes sense if you think about why Sammich had to resort to random dice roll and could not even use the html version. He had to *rig* the dice to justify his voting on himself.

[Imat]

I doubt theres a Jester in a game this small. Its next to impossible. And putting a restriction on the Jester which only allows him to vote himself would be evil Modding. I'm assuming we don't have an evil Mod.

His first vote on himself was random, his second was sarcasm in response to people pointing out him voting himself. I don't know why he hasn't unvoted, but it was a sarcastic vote.

[Near]

I doubt theres a Jester in a game this small. Its next to impossible. And putting a restriction on the Jester which only allows him to vote himself would be evil Modding. I'm assuming we don't have an evil Mod.

His first vote on himself was random, his second was sarcasm in response to people pointing out him voting himself. I don't know why he hasn't unvoted, but it was a sarcastic vote.

From what you and Incognito say, it sounds like it's not common to put jester in a small game like this. I wouldn't know, as I haven't played a game yet neither real life or on here with a jester. But if this is not a common practice, I would have to ask, why not?

I still think Sammich fits the jester role better than scum role, but if he's not a jester, I think he's a scum.

Also, I was in a hurry to unvote and expressed my guess at Sammich being a jester, because according to Wiki, jester wins if he gets lynched before townies or scums win.

[XReyoX]

Mod:

Please prod Mafiaplayer. Thanks

[Y]

I haven't played with a jester either, but it seems like it wouldn't be balanced. It's too easy to get lynched with such a low lynching threshold.

I also thought about MP as jester, so Sammich's logic isn't so far off as you're trying to make it look like.

[Lowell]

Just once I'd like to be in game in which everyone doesn't immediately cry "jester"

[Y]

Just once I'd like to be in game in which everyone doesn't immediately cry "jester"

That's the first time I hear it.

You've been completely unhelpful since the game began. Are you planning on adding some content anytime soon?

[Near]

What power does a soothsayer have?

[destructor]

.::] Vote Count [::.

Mafiaplayer (1)

- XReyoX

Sammich (1)

- gorckat

Near (3)

- Y, Mafiaplayer, Imat

gorckat (1)

- Lowell

Not Voting (5) - Ripley, Incognito, jerubaal, Sammich, Near

Six

votes makes a lynch.

Mafiaplayer and Sammich have been prodded