PIRATES v. NINJAS! Game Over!

[The Fonz]

/Confirm while i can

[The Fonz]

The way I see it, there are three 'teams'- pirates, ninjas, and town, with a few possible people with alternate win conditions. There's probably a pirate cop and doc, as well as a ninja cop and doc- a fact supported by DGB's role. I'd also expect some kind of weapons dealer. Also, Thok, Guardian typically writes Haiku in early days- it's not a PR.

Yeah, and this sort of speculation is intrinsically anti-town. It's a Stoofer game, assuming this kind of shit can bite the town in the ass very quickly.

On day one, we should be thinking about looking for people who look scummy, not trying to work out what the flavour of unknown scum X is.

vote: Gorrad

[The Fonz]

Claus and Fonz both have
dismissed setup discussion...
Consider Space Monkeys!

My point exactly
a minority knows stuff
flavour irrelevant

Or, to put it another way, each player knows whether they're town or scum. Scum know who each other are, town don't. It's basically irrelevant what the flavour is. Bringing up space monkeys hurts your case, since everyone assuming SM were town was precisely the problem, and that's exactly that sort of thing I'm objecting to here. Informed minorities and uninformed majorities act differently, regardless of what the flavour is. It's the tells arising from this we need to look out for.

[The Fonz]

This is a decent point, which was not at all what JordanA24 is saying. Note that it doesn't require a bazillion assumptions about the setup, just that there is a group of scum who are ninjas, and who are not comprised of pirates (and are otherwise unaware of what other roles might be out there before N1), which currently seem very, very reasonable to make.

You realize, of course, that I've hinted that I'm uncomfortable with making one of the assumptions you've suggested.

QFT. Things I wouldn't put past Stoofer:

Either of the eponymous groups isn't in the game at all.
Either or both groups = town.
Either or both groups = scum.
There is a mix of both pro and anti-town pirate and ninja roles, so some pirates are town and some aren't, and the same for ninjas.

Knowing Stoof, scumgroups are just as likely to be a sinister coalition of game show hosts or something. This means that flavour speculation is futile at best.

However what we CAN know for sure is that there is an informed minority, who have the exact same motivations of informed minorities everywhere.

[The Fonz]

Hi, been missing a while, just caught up, here's some play-by-play thoughts.

One- the case on Iammars is

execrable

. Seriously? You think confirming in a pirate voice in a pirates vs Ninjas game is a scumtell? Man. Thing is, I don't know who's scummier- Guardian for coming up with it, or everyone who said it was 'good logic' when it's clearly not (I'm looking at MBF and Sir T here in particular).

However, one thing that sticks in my craw is:

I see where people are coming from on the Iammars wagon, but I think it's kind of weak reasoning.

FoS: Iammars

.

You think it's weak reasoning, and yet you're willing to FOS on the basis of it?

(Not to mention that I find FOSes with so many votes needed for lynch incredibly wishy-washy in itself I kinda find FOSing whilst not using your vote a scumtell).

Ed: Ah, having read on several pages, it becomes apparent that Gorrad means 'the thing that the wagoners have pointed out is the biggest tell' not 'the wagoners' logic is the biggest scumtell' which is how i originally read it.

Ok, the whole discussing the setup thing? I don't get how that's scummy. If I saw someone else do it, I'd see it as a null-tell. Obviously some of y'all see it as scummy, if y'all want to explain why, that's cool, either way I really can't defend myself against something I don't understand.

Basically, it doesn't help, and it might give scum players information about what the town roles are that they didn't necessarily know. Also, that it leads to stupid wagons based on multiple assumptions that we don't have the right to make yet.

As for Mars, he's getting a good number of votes while he's not at his computer. The logic behind his bandwagon is the biggest tell I've seen in the game so far, so normally I'd vote him, but I'd rather give him a chance to say his peace than add one more vote to the list of ones he gets while not able to explain himself.

Again, overly cautious for this stage of the game.

I kind of see Jordan's point here, though he may not have expressed it in the best way. Seeing Mars' "Yar" as scummy requires a lot of assumptions to be made about the setup, none of which we can be particularly confident of being correct.

QFT. It assumes he's a ninja, ninjas are scum, and ninjas believe pirates to be town. I don't think any of these are safe assumptions.

No, it does NOT support your point. In fact, twito was outed PRECISELY because he effectively claimed scum. The space monkeys knew they were the scum, but they didn't know that the town thought that they were scum too. This led to the scenario where twito outed himself.

The town only realised who the scum were when Thok claimed. Prior to that they believed the SM to be town, and themselves to be scum, in fact one guy was lynched for making a space monkey claim that wasn't believable. I note that you later withdrew that, but I feel this comment is necessary to hammer home the point that we ought not to start speculating and assuming shit.

I'd side with Thok in his little spat with Shea. It didn't strike me that Thok was accusing TSQ of lurking at all, and then to suggest that Thok had somehow changed his tune because 'that reason wasn't in the original vote post' when no reason was in that post, seems rather desperate.

K, well obviously you wouldn't. I think the rest of the town will disagree.

I don't, fwiw.

I am in a game called pirates v. ninjas.
-->In this game, pirates oppose ninjas.
I am ninja scum
There is a town, and I as scum oppose them.
-->Pirates are town.

You consider that to be an unreasonably large leap of logic?

Yes.

As for Mars, he's getting a good number of votes while he's not at his computer. The logic behind his bandwagon is the biggest tell I've seen in the game so far, so normally I'd vote him, but I'd rather give him a chance to say his peace than add one more vote to the list of ones he gets while not able to explain himself.

So what tell did you see?

His piratey confirmation. It was a weak tell, but still the biggest I'd seen in the first few pages. I'm satified with his explanation, though, so I'm back to no leads so far.

No leads? Try looking. His explanation was the obvious one for his behaviour, so it's not like you could have not realised that such an explanation was possible, or even likely.

I honestly don't see anyone standing out right now- there's a lot of bad play here, enough that no one person stands out among it all. I'm going to reread soon (probably later today), but a vast majority of this thread has either been attack of me or attack of Iammars, neither of which I find based on good nor on solid tells.

FoS: Everyone on either bandwagon

.

mars thing was pretty much the best thing we have to go on, and would have voted for him yourself but were waiting for a reply. Now you FOS everyone on that wagon? On top of a big OMGUS FOS on everyone voting you.

His piratey confirmation. It was a weak tell, but still the biggest I'd seen in the first few pages. I'm satified with his explanation, though, so I'm back to no leads so far.

What other explanation would you have expected? "Aw, shucks, you got me"?

QFT. Seriously, I'm rather suspicious of everyone who was previously suspicious of Mars, but accepted this explanation happily enough, since it's the obvious one, and had been mentioned as a possible explanation several times. I don't see how it can reassure you at all if you genuinely thought there was a case there to begin with.

I also want to see Cicero contribute more. Hey, cicero! Come back or you're not getting a xmas present this year.

Possible connection here, worth bearing in mind if either comes up scum and the other lives. When someone draws attention to a particular individual for lack of contribution, when there's no particularly strong reason why said player should stand out amongst those not contributing enough, it's often a combination of distancing and coaching in my experience.

@ Twomz: Claus set out the basics of the Gorrad wagon:

1- Early on Gorrad was a bit too interested in setup discussion
2- Then he get all "Ooh, these reasons are weak, but they are also strong, but I can't see anything better", on Iammar's wagon.
3- When he is called on it, he backs down from pointing at Iammars, and says he has "no leads". When I press him further, he generally waves towards both bandwagons.

UA's list of people who are stupid

1) People who's only argument against setup speculation is Space Monkeys

/quote]

It strikes me that most people whose 'only argument' was SMM were using it to argue

in favour of

speculation.

One such false assumption is that since the pirate finder is town, pirates must be scum. Let's wait for a dead pirate before we draw any conclusions.

QFT. Pirates may well be scum, they may also be town (DGB being a limited flavour cop, or DGB may be a Red Herring role.

Which means you arent disappointed at not getting to lynch her at all. You are thrilled that she got nightkilled. So you lied.

Or you want to waste the town's day on a personal (albeit understandable having wanted to pull my hair out while playing with her) vendetta. Your stated preference is that you hoped an extremely distracting player would stay alive so she could distract the town all day one. Which we both know results in a far less useful day one.

I see that as far scummier than say, Iammers, silly pirate yar that took up so much of the last 10 pages of, as Thesp so aptly put it, verbal diarrhea.

There's a strong meta of TSQ absolutely loathing DGB, so I doubt it's indicative of alignment. I'd rather he didn't do it, in the same way I'd rather Battle Mage didn't fixate on a player being scum and try to fit the facts into his theory, or Flameaxe didn't call anyone who came out with a bad argument a fucking moron, or I didn't get pissed off really easily when being wagonned, but none of these things are scumtells.

(@Cicero) So you will continue to invent scenarios in your mind where I am scum no matter what I say? .

The man has a point.



















@Guardian: Your scumlist appears to be 1. a guy who confirmed by saying 'YARR!' and 2. People who replied to you using haikus. Neither of these are remotely good reasons.

[The Fonz]

No, like the rest it was in response to a specific post, this one:

In Ork Mafia, Gorrad, scum, copied my haikus/poetry.
I find it interesting that Fonz, UltimaAvalon, and MBF have done so here.

<snip>

It seems that at least one reasonable explanation is that Iammars is in fact ninja scum who wanted to look a pirate.

unvote vote: Iammars

MBF, UA, Fonz are also on my short list.

[The Fonz]

[quote="Twomz"]

Vote: KaleiÐoscøpe

for no apparent reason other than I always think he's scum for not saying why he votes and never ever posting any content that I can remember.[/quote]

I'm really not comfortable with wagonning someone for something you admit he 'always' does. I don't think Kscope is one of those players whose very existence is town-threatening, and I don't think two weeks to deadline is a reason to lynch just anybody.

[The Fonz]

And that is why letting day one lurkers live is bad. There is never going to be a better time to swat them, I don't think. There will always be some super scummy player that takes the focus.

Yeah, Heaven forbid we find ourselves unable to lynch lurkers later because there are actually scummy people around...

I guess I don't really get this idea of being concerned about 'content.' Votes are content. Positions on other players are content however expressed. I've seen players who can say less in eight paragraphs than could be said by 'This wagon sucks. vote: assface.' In fact, i see the fairly common 'write one paragraph on everyone in the game' post as somewhat scummy.

The bottom line here, i really feel Scope is being wagoned for a not hugely antitown playstyle, and I want no part of it. Like the Mars wagon, the wagon is scummier than the suspect.

[The Fonz]

The Fonz, who's the play?

I'd actually like to see a Mikeburnfire wagon here.

unvote, vote mikeburnfire

Reason being, he strikes me as being equally culpable for the Mars crapwagon as Guardian, but I find Guardian the more likely to be sincere, and it to be highly suspect that MBF gets a tiny fraction of the scrutiny for holding essentially similar positions.

do you seriously think that, at this point in the game, there was enough evidence against Mars to lynch him?

As good as any other reason

This really rings warning bells in my head, as if Mike is supporting the wagon simply because it's a wagon.

His actions seem to portray a general indifference to who gets lynched- see the 'I'm comfortable with lynching any of the top three atm' post. Even if they were all decent wagons, I find it hard to see it as pro-town to be basically indifferent between the main wagons. Granted, he does actually oppose a Guardian lynch.

Vote: Guardian

Whats funny is you believe the things you type.

I notice Guardian himself has already picked up on this, but if you believe him to be sincere, then why are you voting him for it?

Other points:

A Guardian wagon remains preferable to a Scope or Mars one. My meta on G is inconclusive- I've seen him act like this with the mass omgus 'everyone against me is either scum or moron' thing as both town and scum. Though there's some validity to the claim that he's drawing more attention because he's active, it's a long way from true to suggest that it's the main reason for his wagon. That's massively overplaying it. He has, after all, implied scumminess twice off the basis of things that I don't consider scumtells.

I'm also kinda concerned about where the Thesp wagon went. He had six votes at one point, and was the vote leader as recently as a week ago (with four). His wagon just seems to have disappeared, without anyone really have given much of a reason for now finding him less scummy. I hate both of Thesp's votes thus far (Mars, Scope) so this would, I think, be my wagon of second preference.

So,

1. MBF
2. Thesp
3. Guardian

[The Fonz]

Vote: Guardian

Whats funny is you believe the things you type.

I notice Guardian himself has already picked up on this, but if you believe him to be sincere, then why are you voting him for it?

You missed the point of that post entirely. I've already stated what I meant by it. Guardian's explosion when asked a simple question didn't help either.

Yes, you said you found his opinions unbelievable. But the plain meaning of your words is up there. It clearly suggests you think he believes what he's saying.

And Guardian ALWAYs explodes when he thinks he's being wagonned based on crap. (Or when he's scum trying to act like he does as town). He's known for it.

There is no lynch today unless it is Guardian's lynch. Anyone who reads pages 32 and 33 and thinks otherwise are dumb or scum. (See what I did thar?)

If it comes down to Guardian or Scope, i'm quite happy lynching the former. But I'm not going to accept that it's already determined that our choice is that narrow.

[The Fonz]

But I'm not going to accept that it's already determined that our choice is that narrow.

So you think there is enough time to drum up votes for another wagon within 48 hours?

There may be. It would be remiss of me not to at least try.

[The Fonz]

I think calling Guardian out for being the only fictional non-main character leaves enough space to lynch him, but -given the choice- I'd rather lynch Thesp and see if Guardian can come up with some clarifying results before opting to lynch him.

1. I'm uncomfortable assuming we have only 'main' characters based on a handful of deaths.

2. Last time I played with Guardian, he was scum, and claimed tracker. SSS I know, but it doesn't incline me to believe him much.

3. He also outed himself really quickly with a very badly thought out set of fake results.

I can live with him staying alive overnight, but I don't think we should wait more than a day or two before lynching him, unless he comes up with something.

[The Fonz]

1. I'm uncomfortable assuming we have only 'main' characters based on a handful of deaths.

In other words, you have a non-main person...?

Quit fishing.

[The Fonz]

I'm considering it as we speak. Trying to get an idea of the Rosso wagon, as it seems to have sprung up out of nowhere.

[The Fonz]

unvote, vote: Thesp

This Rosso wagon has a bad smell about it. The speed with which it sprung up, the fact that both Thesp and Guardian are on it... the fact that it seems like it might do a Hillary and be running on inevitability soon (I could see the 'ZOMG! It's Rosso or nothing!' arguments lying just around the corner).

unvote, vote Thesp

Has pushed both the Mars and Scope wagons, neither of which i liked, plus gone after a claimed mason, and an unsubstantiated suspicion of Skruffs.

[The Fonz]

Remind me which this game was? I believe I have pointed out that scum often use speed as an argument to derail a wagon on a buddy when they can't refute the arguments, yes.

Four votes in under three hours, including three consecutive posts switching to Rosso, from zero before, including at least two by seriously dodgy people, and with little reasoning beyond 'He's lurking' though, rings my scumdar. I see a very strong likelihood of following here, and I'm getting lynch of convenience vibes too.

It also strikes me as somewhat disengenuous how Cicero attacks a player he's voting for the very reason of lurking, for providing 'radio silence since the wagon sprung up' less than 48 hours after it appeared.

[The Fonz]

It wasn't that one... I seem to recall saying it somewhere in NY. In any case, said game is ongoing.

And the 'It's Rosso or nothing' sentiments have showed up right on cue. If you can get four votes on Rosso in three hours and make him the presumptive lynch favourite from a base of no votes whatsoever in that time, there's still time to sell the Thesp lynch.

[The Fonz]

It's not just "his lurking", it's also that his last two votes seem really weird. He jumped on the KScope wagon for no reason, and given that was essentially a pure lurker wagon, Rosso's vote seems incredibly hypocritical.

His next vote was for Guardian

after

he claimed (and again, he didn't provide a reason.)

It's a vote for a player who I don't recall ever being exactly forthcoming on day ones, for not being forthcoming. I don't like it. I will be on an hour before deadline most likely, so I'm hoping for some movement before then.

I'm thinking an RC RC would probably be in the town's interests, if not.

[The Fonz]

Hi,

Unvote

Vote : Rosso Carne

I call bullshit on the speed of this wagon looking sketchy. We're closing in on a deadline. What the hell do you expect?!?!?

THere are plenty of issues that have been discussed at length today. Rosso's contribution or lack thereof is not one of them.

people, like Fonz and MGM, who are reluctant to make a lynch happen// trying to find a reason not to vote RC and are calling this lynch suspicious should be looked at closely tomorrow, especially if RC is scum. Remember this if I'm dead. Even if RC is town, why do they not want a lynch to happen?

Strawman, strawman, strawman! And also an attempt to bully people into supporting your chosen wagon. Oh, anyone who doesn't support this one specific wagon wants a no-lynch! NO WE DON'T. In fact, I specifically said I'd show up an hour before deadline (ie- now, as I have) and that is to ensure the no-lynch doesn't happen.

You built up a wagon based on an admitted premise of 'this is a shot in the dark, but he hasn't said much' and are now pushing it, as predicted, on the grounds that it's the only game in town. Trying to browbeat anyone who dissents, and avoid scrutiny.

I believe there are enough votes to avoid the no-lynch now anyway, but

unvote

to make sure. I won't hammer, even if Rosso showing up and claiming is a somewhat forlorn hope.

[The Fonz]

It's clear that Guardian doesn't have a result of the form "X targeted hasdgfas", as there's absolutely no reason to hold such a result back.

But I don't see the reason in saying 'I have a result...' all portentious like if it's anything else. Trackings of living players to living players shouldn't be announced, since that marks said player out as likely PR.

[The Fonz]

Thesp I find scummy. He's been on multiple wagons that to me looked dodgy, and doesn't appear to me to be displaying the level of critical thought I'd expect of

Erg0 I see no reason to think he's scum. His arguments seem well-reasoned, and he gives the impression of genuine scumhunting.

Thok I'm fairly mixed on, but trending town. Don't see the Thesp connection you claimed to. Only bit i didn't like was when he seemed to try to make out that not OMGUS voting him made you more likely to be scum. Nature of Thok-Guard sparring makes me think it isn't a bus, which might be relevant later.

Shea- was Shea. Confrontational, prominent, with the odd bit of semi-decent analysis, and an argument with Thok which imho he loses badly. Pretty much par for the course.

[The Fonz]

*Thesp- hasn't displayed the level of critical thought i'd expect of him as town. See: calling your Mars argument 'good logic.'

[The Fonz]

Question for Guardian: If Xtoxm was really "the person you were most cetain was protown", why didn't you say anything when he was coming under pressure yesterday for his OMGUS vote on me?

1) Hyperbole. Gorrad & Cow were more town to me, as was MBL, as was Scope after claim.

Guardian, it's not hyperbole at all, you actually said this:

MBL, you had to kill the person I was most sure of as being town? .

All of one page ago.

[The Fonz]

Oh, I see, I thought you were accusing Thok of hyperbole.

Though i don't honestly see the point in making that post if it's not genuine.

[The Fonz]

Also:
This wasn't adressed yesterday, but is there anyone else who would like to 'vouch' for Guardian's Samwise claim? Perhaps Frodo, Bilbo, Gandalf, Sauron, etc?
Anyone from that universe at all?

Apart from mason pairings, where presumably the two have to be from the same universe, i see no reason to think there is necessarily more than one character from each Mythos, nor do think it's fair to claim that we only have 'leading man' characters based on a handful of deaths.

[The Fonz]

Well, yes. Since the more roles that claim, the easier it is for the scum to get away with fakeclaims. Plus, if Gandalf were in the game, there'd be a not-altogether low chance of him being powerrole.

[The Fonz]

I think it's time Guardian put up or shut up.

[The Fonz]

I think it's time Guardian put up or shut up.

what does this mean?

I either want to hear your result, or that it's not in the town's interests to declare it.

[The Fonz]

His claim is more solid than yours?

[The Fonz]

I can think of at least one reason why scum would know who else is scum though...

Beautiful house of cards element to this game.

I may be being thick, but what's that?

[The Fonz]

I'd actually follow on the claimed tracker's results more often than the cop all things being equal. Cops can have variant sanities, trackers don't.

However all things are not equal: Erg0 looks town to me, and Guardian hella scummy.

[The Fonz]

Fonz, you've said this repeatedly, but you've never quite explained why iirc.

So why find me suspicious?

The basically bad wagons you've pushed, the similiarity of your play here to that as scum elsewhere, your strawmanning of the case against you as merely being due to 'you being active,' and the not-entirely convincing flavour you offer.

[The Fonz]

I can think of at least one reason why scum would know who else is scum though...

Beautiful house of cards element to this game.

I may be being thick, but what's that?

Read the game rules. You're a sharp cookie. You'll figure it out.

Ah, the crosskill immunity bit. Gotcha.

I'm rather more inclined at this juncture to believe Guardian pulled his 'result' out of his ass, but it's worth bearing in mind.

[The Fonz]

That doesn't seem to really tally with Twomz' investigative flavour, though: that his sword changes colour when in the presence of a Goblin. Presumably, the sword would see through disguises?

[The Fonz]

Would you care to take a stand on which of those two positions is more likely, ooba?

[The Fonz]

We lynch Erg0, obviously. Actually, more likely MBL vigs Erg0. But whatever.

Incidentally, your little possibility list also excludes 'it's a massive bus.' But I still think Guardian-scum and Erg0-town is the most likely combination.

Money/mouth time.

Vote: Guardian

[The Fonz]

Ooba also brings up the point of a role switcher arounder -- that is another plausible explanation of how Twomz possibly got me as a goblin -- maybe there are other goblins out there and I got switched with one. I'm still very puzzled as to how I am a goblin.

Bringing up redirection is usually a fairly transparent scum ploy. It's the Flying Spaghetti Monster of defences. You don't KNOW that no-one dicked about with the roles!

If anyone protown actually did do that, I'd like 'em to step forward.

[The Fonz]

At the top of this page, you were talking about how flavour makes it seem like you and Twomz could both be truthful. You're now suggesting that he's lying to railroad you. Am I not entitled to think you'll say ANYTHING if it might just postpone your death?

Also, think about it. Why would Twomz be lying? In a game like this, with the likelihood of multiple scum factions, a scum outing himself to remove one town power role only benefits rival scum. Plus he would have had somehow to have guessed at the existence of a scumgroup of which there'd been no indication to that point.

[The Fonz]

Sorry, Ooba, I noticed you described Erg0 as 'obvious protown' and say 'we should take a real close [look]' at him if Guardian comes up scum, in the same post.

[The Fonz]

Thesp, could you clarify what you meant by that last post?

[The Fonz]

Let me get this straight- you think that a scum Guardian is significantly more likely because Erg0 denied targetting Cow last night? What did you expect Erg0 to do?

[The Fonz]

But it's hardly surprising, since Guardian's claim about Erg0 implied strongly that Erg0 was a scum killer.

[The Fonz]

The list of things you could have claimed is pretty short, though. Vig doesn't work due to the kill method, protect is unlikely since he, er, died (though I suppose it's possible you could have been a protector against another group), roleblocking a claimed mason doesn't make much sense, that only leaves investigation, or possibly something dodgy like recruitment.

The overwhelmingly most likely reason for you to be seen going to Cow is that you're scum who killed him. In that context, full denial would strike me as being the percentage play.

So, between you being town and not actually going there, and you being scum who did (or scum who didn't, as I suppose cicero/ooba's theory is at least plausible), I think those possibilities have at least a 90% chance of being true between them.

So I guess I don't see you doing what I'd expect you to do 90% of the time anyway as any great tell either way.

Moot, I suppose, since I think Guardian's lying regardless. But I don't think that statement reflects well on Thesp. There are any number of good reasons to believe Guardian is scum. I don't think that's one of them.

[The Fonz]

Then the thing that makes him seem scum there is not the claim and counterclaim, but the pseudo-guilty on Guardian in the first place, surely? Would you suspect him less, with Twomz having come out with what he did, if he hadn't produced a 'result' of any interest, having claimed to have one before Twomz claimed? I wouldn't.

[The Fonz]

My God, if there were any more WIFOM there, I'd swear I was actually in a wine bar.

[The Fonz]

I am quite curious as to how you think

you

found Guardian out, Erg0, since i was labouring under the impression that Twomz did?

[The Fonz]

Ah, ok so.

[The Fonz]

Get milk
feed fish
Ignore Guardian

[The Fonz]

I'm pretty certain Guardian was telling the truth yesterday about Erg0. But i can see a thok protector choosing to protect Erg0 on Night 2 - the kill would have failed even then. I do think it would better for both the town and the goblin scum if he just targets Erg0 (again?)

Thesp is a much better lynch - MGM seems to keep going after him again and again in his posts.

Right, let's get this straight. You're 'pretty certain' Guardian was truthful about Erg0. Given that what Guardian said about Erg0 implies he's 100% scum, that means you're 'pretty certain' Erg0 is scum. How is ANYONE a 'much better' lynch than someone you are pretty certain is scum?

Personally, I'm vacillating on Guardian/Erg0. It makes sense for guardian to finger a non-buddy as scum whether or not it's actually true. But the whole 'Moses coming down from the mountain' schtick Guardian seemed to be pulling at the beginning of yesterday makes me think he was planning to announce an incriminating result, which makes me think Erg0scum is more likely.

[The Fonz]

Stoofer likes LotR? I dunno, Sonny Chiba got bumped to the bottom too.

I'm also noticing that, judging by the kills so far, it appears that every single player in this game is either scum or a power role.

I saw that too. Makes a cetain amount of sense, given the flavor, but I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't an Ultimate-Showdown-of-Ultimate-Destiny-style vanilla bystander.

There is at least one Townie in this game. The Townie Role PM looks like this:

[Character Name] (Townie)

You are a good guy and win when all the bad guys are dead.

Quote tag fixed -- Stoofer

Congratulations Erg0. We know from the first page that there is at least one vanilla townie in the game, and we now know from your comment that you aren't one of them. If you're not scum, please pull your head out of your ass and stop giving scum information it's better they lack.

[The Fonz]

True, but I don't think that kind of disclaimer works. I don't think I've ever seen a vanilla townie speculate that a game might not have any, with or without caveats.

[The Fonz]

...Why do you think I am a ninja?

I'd be interested in seeing this, too... I can't see how rival scum could possibly have pulled off what Twomz did with regard to Guardian.

[The Fonz]

Frankly, I think we should lynch the pair of them in order. I'd go for Thesp first, though. That MGM vote on day two really does look like a cop vote, whereas it's clearly possible that Guardian was just screwing with us, though my instinct is that he wasn't in that particular respect.

Vote: Thesp

[The Fonz]

unvote

pending thinking about Thesp's claim.

My first instinct is that we should have Thesp daykill someone when they reach -1 and another player (or thesp himself) expresses willingness to hammer, so as to test the claim.

[The Fonz]

Also,

Unvote, Vote: Skruffs

. I'm still of the opinion that the goblins should kill Erg0 if Guardian was telling the truth, and Skruffs hasn't done anything to reassure me of a pro-town nature.

I don't think it's exactly a brilliant strategy for town to expect a scumgroup to deal with another scum for us, when there are several powerful town roles claimed, including a cop directed specifically at that scumgroup.

Very down for Thesp vigging Erg0.

[The Fonz]

Vote: Erg0

Guys, erg0 is right. There's no reason for him to claim unless he's facing the significant possibility of lynch. That you believe it's likely Goblins targetted him and failed because he's scum doesn't change that. You want a claim, use your vote.

[The Fonz]

Thesp should target Erg0 and I

FOS

Skruffs for

FOSing

everyone who suggested it.

Agreed, actually. There's a major, and obvious, distinction, between 'it is in the town's interests for a claimed dayvig to attempt to confirm himself by killing someone who would otherwise be lynched anyway' and 'it is in the town's interest to daykill, out of the blue, without giving the victim the chance to claim.' It's analogous to suggesting that opposition to quicklynching equals opposition to all lynching.

[The Fonz]

Mike, are you really suggesting it is scummy to insist that Thesp prove the existence of his claimed ability in the manner which is least likely to do harm to the town?

[The Fonz]

If the suggestion is that 'Goblin Finder' is a safeclaim, well, Guardian clearly didn't get a safeclaim that good- why would anyone else?

But more to the point, I don't think anyone's blindly trusting it. The events surrounding Guardian make it more likely to be genuine, and in any case, such a claim paints a target on Twomz' back for a scumgroup that doesn't have a protector against it left alive, so I don't think it's worth worrying about it.

[The Fonz]

I don't buy the claim, in a 'having your cake and eat it' kinda way. It's tacitly conceding that Guardian did target Erg0, but trying to make out that ERg0's survival is not due to him being scum. I'd be happy with a Thesp vigging here.

[The Fonz]

But if the flavour of your possible 'immunity' is that you come back from the dead, it would seem odd to think it applied only to one specific form of kill.

[The Fonz]

Simple way around that:

Thesp: vig or die

If a normal lynch majority posts that, I don't see how he has a choice. He vigs if he can.

[The Fonz]

explain what you're getting at by 'means something else.'

[The Fonz]

Vampires generally represent cults. I think he's a cult-immune townie.
That's all I'm saying now.

That... is a stretch.

[The Fonz]

I disagree firmly. If we are to test Thesp's vigging abilities, we want to use them on someone who is most likely scum, since that minimises the risk if he's telling the truth, hence the idea to use it on the no1 lynch candidate. What you're proposing is either:

a) Thesp gets to make it to night without vigging at all
OR

b) Thesp vigs someone who is not the town's consensus choice for most likely scum.

Neither of those seem to me to be a particularly pro-town outcome.

[The Fonz]

Except that it is unlikely that he has already been targetted by scum, and scum have Xkill immunities.

Also: You'd prefer one person's vig decision to end the day immediately rather than pursuing a pseudolynch through the normal channels until there's a consensus?

Having Thesp vig at -1, therefore pseudohammering, doesn't have any obvious downside to me. If he's telling the truth, we'll never have a better opportunity to have him prove it whilst minimising the risks of his dying in the attempt. If he's lying, we're clearly better off knowing this.

[The Fonz]

Lynch one, have MBL vig the other.

[The Fonz]

I think that's a good point. It seems likely the scum have fakeclaims that are in some way related to roles actually in the game, otherwise they wouldn't necessarily be safe. This is backed up by a Goblin having a fakeclaim related to the anti-goblin roles.

I find it rather incredible that there would be a Buffy role that doesn't mention the possibility of Vampires being in the game. I would expect a 'cult-immune' townie to have some indication in their pm of the possible existence of this cult. Hence, I'm not inclined to believe Erg0's claim, and want to see Thesp vig him (myself, and cicero, have already made it abundantly clear why it is in the town's interest for this to happen).

[The Fonz]

Also: let us not assume that vampires are either scum, or not in the game at all. It is perfectly plausible that we could have a handful of pro-town roles that also happen to be vampiric in nature.

[The Fonz]

I want all scum groups to lose and the town to win this game.

That do ya?

I'm afraid I have to disagree on the subject of Erg0's claim. Vanilla townie, but, uh, it's probably got some kind of immunity, and maybe a link to a potential vamp scumgroup... does not strike me as the most genuine of claims.

[The Fonz]

What's up with the musketballs kill? That doesn't seem to be pirate-related. Do we have a British Invaders scumgroup as well?

Seems to fit perfectly imho.

What do you think of the fact that Iammars claimed to be a Vampire Hunter well before a Communist Hunter came to light?

QFT. Claiming a red herring role before any other such roles have come to light is very dangerous.

Sounds like a great way to give the most talented scum a free ride, Oobie.

I'd agree with this. Plus, who is this 'we' that think has a consensus list of most to least suspicious?

'There was once an island in the Atlantic ocean which was inhabited by a tribe of people who were sea-fearing. Hence for them , their island was their home. Their society was driven by gold which they obtained from a mountain nearby. For the mining , they trained a race of people who were considered outcasts - these people differed in both size and looks from the ruling class. They were provided with no facilities,education and were given only the bare minimum to sustain mining. They weren't allowed to talk to each other too. Hence over the ages , they slowly lost whatever intelligence they had. They weren't given any individual names and as a group, they were identified by the work they did. Gold-Miners or 'Gob'-'Lins' in the tongue of the ruling class ...

Centuries later, a fleet of strange looking objects was seen on the horizon. Fear gripped the people of the land as they saw these monstosities approach their shores. Stranger looking people got down. Fear turned to anger as they realized that they were after their Gold. After a brief battle, all that was left of the once big empire were their mines and the Goblins who lived in the darkness inside them. Releasing that years of mining had made them formidable melee warriors, the foreigners decided to set them free and use them as crew in their own ships.

This is how the Pirates acquired the friendship of the Goblins

-- The Chronicles of PvsNia'

I don't see why anyone would go to this length to push a theory which has incredibly little to support it. It strikes me as being a giant red herring.

Other thoughts: I don't see scum being given a day-ending dayvig, so now Thesp has demonstrated his power, he seems very unlikely scum to me.

IIRC, the person most tied to Guardian was Skruffs, so I'm not sure re-reading him produces much. I'm going to go back over the two dead pirates and the dead ninja, and see what i can turn up.

[The Fonz]

The case against you, RB, as far as I can see it, is that you appear to be putting very little thought into the game, and instead consistently going along with whatever a number of other people happen to be saying. You're doing just enough to not get prodded, without doing anything that might help the town find scum.

[The Fonz]

On Skruffs:

Cicero is not a likely ninja:

So Cicero you KNOW that scum get to talk to each other? HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT MISTER CICERO??

It doesn't strike me that scum would be that likely to pull that kinda crap on each other.

It's quite clear that the pirates didn't get any LoTR fakeclaims.

Uses some craplogic on me, though that doesn't help me much.

Man, there's a lot of rolefishing here.

On Scope:

All we've got is early votes on MBF and TSQ (to go along with the ineffectual, distancing vote on Skruffs).

On ERg0:

What stands out with Erg0 is two things: firstly, an early, possibly-distancing bit where he votes Mgm early on, then unvotes when Mgm 'clarifies.'

He also defends Mars a lot, but then, he does have a point. The Guardian-driven Mars wagon was a horrible one.

[The Fonz]

I didn't notice Mgm had died. Scratch that.

[The Fonz]

Well, i wasn't reading 'the thread' there, i was reading the posts of the three dead scum in isolation, and noting things that i thought could be leads either way on any other players.

[The Fonz]

Actually, there's rather more to 'me defending Erg0' than that. I made no secret of the fact I had a town read on Erg0 day one. My bad. I switched when he claimed vanilla townie, after he'd made the 'it seems like everyone is a power role' comment (along with the apparent flavour problem and the 'oh, I might have some secret ability' thing).

I'd actually follow on the claimed tracker's results more often than the cop all things being equal. Cops can have variant sanities, trackers don't.

However all things are not equal: Erg0 looks town to me, and Guardian hella scummy.

Incidentally, your little possibility list also excludes 'it's a massive bus.' But I still think Guardian-scum and Erg0-town is the most likely combination.

One might wonder why ooba fixated on my not believing a word out of Guardian's mouth as indication of a Fonz-Erg0 lynch, and not me actually saying I found Erg0 town, until it came to me that ooba did too.

This also makes more sense . Goblins target an obviously protown player , Erg0 and the kill fails. Hence , guardians tale about having tracked Erg0 yesterday since the kill failed and he thinks Erg0 is scum.

Sorry, Ooba, I noticed you described Erg0 as 'obvious protown' and say 'we should take a real close [look]' at him if Guardian comes up scum, in the same post.

Well , On a re-read of Day 1 , Erg0 appeared pretty protown. And in a game with multiple factions , scum will be protown since they are actively hunting members of the opposite factions.

3. The Fonz's post 1175 could be seen as scum coaching.

I'd really like to see you explain why. One because I really don't see how it could, and two because that sounds like you casually floating an idea and hoping someone else runs with it.

[The Fonz]

The grander scheme of me and Erg0 being possible scumbuddies that you hadn't mentioned at all, ever, until you snuck in that sly little insinuation you mean? In fact, you hadn't mentioned me at all.

I mean, sure, if you've already decided you think X and Y are scum together, pretty much anything can be seen as scum interaction. But do you dispute that letting scum know whether or not you're a power role is a bad thing for town players to do?

[The Fonz]

It's occurred to me that I could probably only name five other players in this game. Time to go back and re-read the rest, methinks.

[The Fonz]

That's a really bad vote, given recent developments. What's your rationale?

[The Fonz]

Note that Scope claimed a mason-like role, and was not tested, and subsequently found to be lying.

[The Fonz]

That's just dumb, if you're town. Exposing a town role, when there are already plenty of players with more useful powers and equally solid evidence for being town available to NK, is clearly preferable to allowing a town lynch in this scenario.

[The Fonz]

I am not Rogueben's mason partner.

[The Fonz]

Ooba hasn't said anything to that effect yet.
Nor has Lawrencelot, though I can't remember off hand who his predecessor was, let alone if (s)he claimed.

[The Fonz]

Although it may also imply that someone else is a mayor. Yes, there's less chance than average ooba is a mason, but not no chance.

[The Fonz]

I'm going to

Vote: CES

There a a few promising angles today, but CES stands out as a potential scum because of his reaction to the 'I am town and want all scum groups to lose' bit. It could have been town just joking around; but it's equally possible CES was a scum, who had worked out Mike's role and realised he couldn't risk actually lying there.

[The Fonz]

What does MBL killing Xtoxm have to do with you being innocent, CES?

[The Fonz]

Scum did kill mike?

[The Fonz]

OIC, cicero.

unvote

[The Fonz]

Well, the night two kill came before the request to state pro-townness, which for me was the biggest hint of his role. (You may notice I drop my prior suspicion of MBF subsequent to that). So him not dying night two doesn't mean you didn't subsequently work it out.

Goblins killed Twomz night three, the Goblin Finder. It's quite possible that was their priority, then they got Mike the next night. It's also possible, since you didn't actually lie there regardless of alignment, that he wasn't a particularly big threat (I'd say this is less likely, but not implausible).

[The Fonz]

Hmmm. Not really. Y'see, since two of the protectors were dead, Mike couldn't demand people comply without giving the game away. Since lying is risky, and killing him means leaving Twomz alive, I'd have thought brushing it off with a joke would have been the optimum goblin move there.

[The Fonz]

You may be right. But then, no-one mentioned your 'joke' again until now. It slid by pretty much unnoticed.

Can I ask you something, CES? Did you guess Mike's role before he died? If so, when?

[The Fonz]

I did not, Fonz.

This is interesting, since you stated firmly yesterday that mike was town. I assumed you'd seen the same thing Mars and I did.

[The Fonz]

I'm going to be away from my computer until wednesday afternoon. Since that is just over 48hrs, I thought I'd post to let everyone know.

[The Fonz]

I'd like Ooba to answer this question: Did your own ability cause your predecessor to survive that lynch or was it something outside your control?

Own Ability

And i'd like to know where you and fonz stand about mass claiming ..

Opposed. Don't see the benefit, given that scum clearly have safeclaims. Sure, some scum might screw up and come up with overly-complicated roles, or roles that contradict others. But they'll do that if wagonned as well, and that allows for the possibility of catching scum without necessarily letting them know what all the town roles are.

I'm leaning towards one of UA or Primate myself. I didn't like a lot of what Primate was pushing yesterday, and his sudden radio silence after being asked some follow-up questions felt like a cheap out card to play.

Yeah, I'm sorry about my lurking. Slipping back into bad habits. I'll make my case against you now.

I'm against the mass-claim because we have two confirmed innocents in the game, one in the form of the pirate protector, and the other in the form of the vanilla townie. We out them, and regardless of how small the game is, the scum

will

kill them instead of each other. If we run up the townie and the PP today, then I'll be in favour of a mass claim of the remaining people, but I just don't think the benefit outweighs the cost at this point.

I see no reason to blithely assume there's

exactly one

townie. There aren't many, sure; whilst exactly one is possible, it's not something I'd put my home on.

Brawl.

I been down with massclaim since Day 1. That being said, I dont see what CES is trying to get at with

If the mass claim gives us any insight into alignment, then that'll probably lead to scum killing the wrong people.

With 3 dead finders, 2 dead and one obsolete protector, a dead vig, and a claimed dayvig, I'm not sure what else is left that we need to protect.

Well, I'm not sure either. But that doesn't mean

there definitely aren't

any town roles that still need to be hidden.

Also, does anyone else see 'I've been down since day one, but not pushing it' as scummy equivocation? As in, if you think it's pro-town, well, I'm down for it so I've got nothing to hide, but if you think it'll hurt the town, well, I'm not pushing it so don't blame me.

t;]
I like UA as scum even more now.

You argue semantics and continue to prove my point. Thanks

There's a substantive difference here. You're trying to make out that there

is

no reason for those attacking you. Thesp is suggesting there is, but some people just aren't vocalizing it.

I'd like to argue in reverse ..

Its in scum's best interests to shoot at each other tonight .. (As town is in already a bad position)

So massclaim will probably help them avoid the townies and hit the other scum .. And will make sure we don't mislynch now too

CES argument that the scum will hit the townies is wrong IMO ..

If we don't massclaim, we're not going to suddenly lose our head and lynch a townie who makes a strong claim. And again, the scum clearly have safeclaims.

PRIMATES BIG KISON POST.

TL;DR.

Or rather, this is probably going to require a separate response.

your posts didn't look very protown throughout D1 and later, so you shouldn't be surprised that you're in anyone's scumlist.

They're still backing me into a corner without giving me a means to defend myself.

How do you not have a means to defend yourself? You've been playing in a certain way; justify your actions. This just sounds like scummy whining.

I dont like the way this is going, and its mostly my fault

I tried to drastically change my play style for the sake of this game, from my normal, chaotic, Asshat playstyle to a more passive, agreeable, hopefully more Town friendly style.

Anyone claiming to have deliberately changed their playstyle, every single time I've encountered it in the past, is scum doing so to avoid lynch. If your normal style is, in your opinion, less 'town-friendly' than this style, why don't you play like this all the time?

Vote: UA

Half of this is because I got sick or arguing with people about stupid things Day 1, and half because of my role. Upon asking someone who's opinion I respect regarding the best way to play as a person with my role, the sage advice I received was "Be as Pro-Town as possible."

As opposed to other town roles, when generally you're going out of your way to help the scum?

So I tried giving my opinions, whether or not they went with the general Town consensus or not.

That's fine. It's even probably protown. It doesn't, however, mean that those opinions themselves aren't going to be scummy.

If I realized I had no idea what I was talking about, I quickly shut up.

If I began pinging any scumdars, I quickly shut up.

'I tried not to do anything that was lead to my lynch.' Also, this seems to directly contradictt your previous assertion that you'd say what you thought, regardless of what other people thought of it.

I also avoided yelling at people for no reason, except in the case of Guardian. Back when there were still 15-20 players, it was working fine, but now everything is sorta collapsing around me

Trying not to antagonise... (holy shit, this post is scummy. The claim better be good.)

Course, with Guardian being the only person who I thought was scum and actually was isn't helping me either.

Meh, this is pretty hard to contextualise in isolation.

I am Darth Vader, and the Dark Side grants me two passive abilities. First is, I'm a Miler, and every investigator will find me to be their bad guy. The second I will carry with me to the grave, because I'm still hoping for the chance for it to go off.

WHAT! No f-ing way. You claim to have been down since day one, whilst in possession of a seriously scummy sounding role, and a power that becomes useless if it is known? Now such powers exist. But I find it inconceivable that you'd support a massclaim whilst in possession of one.

In retrospect, I see I should've claimed a lot sooner, but I haven't really been under any amount of pressure all game, and I don't like claiming without reason.

You haven't fullclaimed. Now you should have claimed sooner?

Who's scum?

Kison is still voting me, I think, because he believes I was against the Thesp testage, when I already stated it was the method of testing that I disagreed with

The Fonz has been sliding by, agreeing with people, and promising rereads

That's demonstribly untrue, and I'd demonstrate it, if the rest of your contribution over the last few pages hadn't already convinced me you're scum.

[The Fonz]

1. Had I claimed sooner, it could have been tested.
2. I wouldn't have claimed it if I'd claimed earlier.

The above are contradictory. You're at L-1, and Thesp, who isn't currently voting you, will if you don't reveal your second ability. Do it.

[The Fonz]

Hardly misrepresentation. I didn't take his words at meaning what they meant, but what the obvious seemed to me. It's not misrep to respond to what you genuinely think he said.

It's an awesome claim though, isn't it? I have a role, which has a factor that would have been testable in the past, but isn't now, and a part that can be testable, but i won't even say what it is, because if scum know what it is, it's useless.

[The Fonz]

All in all, I believe this game is focused n pairings. There's the Pirate and Ninja, yes, but I wouldnt be too surprised to see a Chuck Norris or Jet Li to complement Bruce Lee, Obi-Wan or maybe Darth Vader to match Luke, and Frodo for Sam

Hands up who thinks UA got Darth Vader and maybe Frodo as safeclaims?

[The Fonz]

I have a hard time believing that, even now.

Explains away a guilty investigation,

and

has a serious disincentive to anyone thinking about NKing? That's like the perfect scum claim.

[The Fonz]

True. But you appear to be labouring under the misapprenhension that it's remotely possible to hint that you have an additional ability and then be allowed to get away with not claiming it. It's not; it's ridiculously scummy. If you genuinely intended not to claim it, you wouldn't have mentioned it at all.

[The Fonz]

Not so fast, scum!

A massclaim here makes a town victory impossible. It's not outing scum I'm worried about. It's letting the scum know who the town are.

Paradoxically, we can't really afford to lynch scum here. If we lynch a scum today, the rival scumgroup can win by NKing either of the remaining town players. (I have to assume a scumgroup wins when it has at least half of the living, and one more member than any other scumgroup).

I'm pretty sure our only hope is to no-lynch here and hope for crosskills, though i need to run the permutations to be sure.

[The Fonz]

Actually, The Fonz, the best bet is to try and lynch a Goblin. They still have nk immunity from Ninjas, so that would still leave Ninjas 2 nks away from victory.

A mass claim is bad. Pirate Protector is still going to draw a nightkill, as he is unlynchable.

I think you've gotten the wrong idea re: scum immunity. I read the rule as each individual scum has one-shot immunity to each other scumgroup, not each group.

As far as I can make out, all kills by both scum factions are accounted for. That means both scumgroups have equal amount of immunity to one another left.

If we lynch a goblin (and same if we lynch a ninja) we go into night 2-2-1. If the scumgroup we don't lynch hits town, then they basically win. Why? Because then they have half the living, so can't be lynched. If they hit town that night, then it's 2-1 with no town living. The 2-man scumgroup lynches the one-man, and wins. If they hit scum that night, they still win, because there will be no-lynch the following day, and they can finish off the other scum the next night, and even if he's been hitting them, that leaves it at 1 scum one town, which is a scum win.

@Primate: you may be right, actually. Let me think about this. I'd gotten into the mindset that either we no-lynch, or we have the day as normal with claims and a lynch. I can't immediately think of a reason why massclaim followed by no-lynch isn't our best bet.

[The Fonz]

Dear last remaining ninja, (and don't think I don't know who you are)

here's the deal. I'm the last goblin.

I'm going to refuse to kill tonight. You can target me if you want, but that will mean a town win. I promise, with everyone in this thread as witnesses, that I will leave the site immediately if I am found to have submitted a nightkill tonight.

You have a choice.

You can no-kill as well, and we'll end up with a three-way ATLHEA.
Alternatively, you can kill off one of the town, and we'll lynch the remaining townie tomorrow. Then I will no-kill, because so long as you kill me, nothing I do matters- I can't win.

I'll leave it up to your conscience to determine whether you feel your ego needs the boost of being seen as the sole winner, or if you're willing to split, because to be honest I don't really care anymore. I think you deserve to win more than the town does anyway, so either way it's preferable to just carrying on this charade in the forlorn hope that either of us somehow fails to spot the obvious, and in the process handing the town the game.

Yours,

The Great Goblin

[The Fonz]

Stoof took your kill, eh?

He may have done. Even if he DID take tonight's kill away from me, it doesn't change matters. You kill me, the town will win.

[The Fonz]

It clearly IS you, Primate. Lawrence's pirate protector claim makes so much more sense than yours.

Anyhow, ball's in your court. Remember, nightkill me, and you WILL lose.

Vote: No-lynch

[The Fonz]

Yeah, the fake nameclaims were useless since there was no role that could safely be claimed. This is why games need vanilla townies.

Also, Primate:

I told you you'd lose if you tried to kill me, didn't I?

[The Fonz]

. This is why games need vanilla townie

s

.

Emphasis mine.

But seriously, pretty much every town role was confirmable.

[The Fonz]

I'd developed the plan to actually target you the night after we first targetted CES, to prove that we knew who the ninjas were, and that you couldn't win by continuing with the no-lynch and nightkill formula. Then I was going to suggest we lynch Ooba together, target each other at night, then lynch Lawrence the last day. That would still leave me at risk of being screwed by you, but hell, that was still preferable to a town win.

Unfortunately, I didn't get on at all that night to tell Cicero this, so he submitted the CES kill quickly and the game went to day again before I knew about it.

Once I had my immunity stripped, I figured that if you were going to screw me, you'd do it immediately, so I presented you a simple offer: trust me, and win together, or go behind my back and remove your own chance of winning. (I figured that if you were going to stab me in the back, you'd do it immediately).

[The Fonz]

*sigh*

Fonz, why did you do that? It was blatantly my best play to kill you, and if you had revealed you lost your protection, there's no way I would have done that.

Don't be silly. You wouldn't have believed me for a second. You'd have concluded, correctly, that if I were lying about that, I could kill you whilst you killed town, and ensure the win. You'd still have killed me, and the same thing would have happened.

If you really thought stoof had taken my kill from that night, why didn't you do as I asked? I couldn't have harmed you.

So I did the only thing available to me. Made a promise I couldn't possibly break to not NK at all that night (because if I said I'd NK town, you'd just kill me and win alone) and offer you the possibility of a joint win if you killed town that night. I figured you'd either take the deal, in which case we'd win together, or kill me.

[The Fonz]

Yes, he did.

[The Fonz]

Cus I didnt know until Day 4 or something that the play for Millers is to claim Day 1

It isn't.

[The Fonz]

Ah. You probably should have made that clear to Primate then.

why?

[The Fonz]

Well, yes. But to my mind, the only way a joint win was possible was if we had equal kills remaining on one another, or at least, didn't know that we didn't. Otherwise, whoever has immunity left wins.

Announcing that I had no immunity was akin to giving up on any chance of winning. I'd have had the choice of killing town, and handing Primate the game, or targetting primate and handing him the town the game. I wouldn't have made a binding promise not to kill at all (as I did with not mentioning it), because he would know that he could then target a townie and still have more immunity left than me, at which point he'd win.

So you'd say, why didn't you admit that you had no immunity left, and that I'd be targetting primate? Well, he has no reason to trust me if I say I'm targetting him that night and have no immunity. Like i said, if i'm lying, he's cost his side the game. To my mind, if we were going to deal, we couldn't do it from a position of one of us having more immunity than the other, that was never going to work.

[The Fonz]

Meh. I felt that you, dealing with me one down, would be compelled to pursue your own win condition.

[The Fonz]

I've seen it before.

Otherwise I wouldn't have insisted we kill MBF that night.

[The Fonz]

We scumhunted.

Heh, I attacked UA so hard because I was convinced he wouldn't have hinted at a second ability if he were town. I guess CES thought the same.

[The Fonz]

I think it needed more vanilla. There was literally nothing scum could claim at the end. If there'd been, say, three vanilla, then scum could safely claim. Also, some of the town roles were so specific or obscure, you pretty much knew they were genuine as soon as they were claimed because no-one but Stoofer would have come up with them.

Though on the day of the second no-lynch, I was pissed off it went to night before I could make my 'Chuck Norris, awesome protector' roleclaim and claim to be the reason every time anyone didn't die at night.

[The Fonz]

Sure there was something scum could claim - Stephen Maturin, Pirate Protector. We were just all too dumb to catch it.

We also could have changed the game just by killing CES instead of Kison when we did.

And even as it was, scum still coulda been smart enough to push a joint scum win via happily ever after.

I wouldnt have changed the game just to allow scum to safe claim at the end. Really the game went the way it did at the end through a series of sub-optimal player choices. That's the way the cookie crumbles.

If we'd struck CES, there'd still have been a massclaim, and Kison's rolename fell into the couldn't make it up category. If the only roleclaim that gives you even a shot is the one the town player actually has, then it's a problem.

That town could win because the logic of the game dictated that evenly-matched scumgroups take each other out, even once the town had been whittled down to having only as many as each scumgroup, you have to ask how scum could have won.

The win conditions didn't really allow for a happily ever after joint win- since if everyone died, the town won. If we'd gotten to 1 vs 1 and no town left, that situation STILL bizarrely enough favours a town win, since it's a prisoner's dilemma and both scumgroups are better off killing whatever the other does.

[The Fonz]

Oh, and on the miller topic: anyone who claims miller day one should be lynched. This is because it's too convenient a scum claim. It doesn't require you to prove any night actions, and explains away guilty results on that player. If the meta ever became to allow claimed millers to live, then scum would have a field day.

In this case, claiming miller day one would likely have gotten UA lynched, and if it hadn't, it would have greatly reduced the chances of any scum targetting him at night.

Correct play as cop is hope you look sufficiently pro-town as to avoid investigation, and that you outlive the cop.

[The Fonz]

He came up with it.

[The Fonz]

Yeah, he meant fakeclaim...