Open 60: The New C9 - Game over!

[MadCrawdad]

mod, can you please issue necessary prods?

[-TinVision-]

Fifth Vote Count of the Day

Spacecase - 5 (Shteven, farside22, Rigel, Oman, dahill1)

Phate - 1 (Cipher)

Not voting - 8 (

LaptopGun, Spacecase, The Fonz, somestrangeflea, vollkan, MadCrawdad, Phate

)

With 13 alive, it is 7 to lynch.

mod, can you please issue necessary prods?

Prods going out now. Unless the activity rate changes soon, expect a deadline.

[farside22]

@MCD: I know I'm not around as much, but I did state the following that still hasn't been answered or commented on. <snip>

@ farside

Here's a quote where you mention that most of the time, lurkers are scum. As we've got several of them in this game, do you stand by your comment that most lurkers are scum?

P.S. Didn't like the case on melody man day 2, still don't. Seems to basically be "he's lurking". Probably right on that, doesn't sell me as him being scum though.

It was also his lack of reasoning when he voted. Lurkers can sometimes be scum (most times). Depends on the person and if they know how to bluff well in these games.

Pointless comments, wishy washy and contraditory or also how I evaluate scum. Lurkers go on there because it's easy not to say much and vote out town as scum then trying to be involved in the conversation.

[vollkan]

@MCD: I know I'm not around as much, but I did state the following that still hasn't been answered or commented on. <snip>

@ farside

Here's a quote where you mention that most of the time, lurkers are scum. As we've got several of them in this game, do you stand by your comment that most lurkers are scum?

P.S. Didn't like the case on melody man day 2, still don't. Seems to basically be "he's lurking". Probably right on that, doesn't sell me as him being scum though.

It was also his lack of reasoning when he voted. Lurkers can sometimes be scum (most times). Depends on the person and if they know how to bluff well in these games.

Pointless comments, wishy washy and contraditory or also how I evaluate scum. Lurkers go on there because it's easy not to say much and vote out town as scum then trying to be involved in the conversation.

Pointless, wishy washy and contradictory are all valid scumtells in most cirumcstances...but lurking? It is easy to lurk and it can help scum, but lurking is not itself

scummy

. Anti-town, sure, but not scummy.

[dahill1]

@MCD: I know I'm not around as much, but I did state the following that still hasn't been answered or commented on. <snip>

@ farside

Here's a quote where you mention that most of the time, lurkers are scum. As we've got several of them in this game, do you stand by your comment that most lurkers are scum?

P.S. Didn't like the case on melody man day 2, still don't. Seems to basically be "he's lurking". Probably right on that, doesn't sell me as him being scum though.

It was also his lack of reasoning when he voted. Lurkers can sometimes be scum (most times). Depends on the person and if they know how to bluff well in these games.

Pointless comments, wishy washy and contraditory or also how I evaluate scum. Lurkers go on there because it's easy not to say much and vote out town as scum then trying to be involved in the conversation.

Pointless, wishy washy and contradictory are all valid scumtells in most cirumcstances...but lurking? It is easy to lurk and it can help scum, but lurking is not itself

scummy

. Anti-town, sure, but not scummy.

but wouldn't you agree that anyone that is anti-town should lynched?
i say either let them participate or lynch them

[vollkan]

@MCD: I know I'm not around as much, but I did state the following that still hasn't been answered or commented on. <snip>

@ farside

Here's a quote where you mention that most of the time, lurkers are scum. As we've got several of them in this game, do you stand by your comment that most lurkers are scum?

P.S. Didn't like the case on melody man day 2, still don't. Seems to basically be "he's lurking". Probably right on that, doesn't sell me as him being scum though.

It was also his lack of reasoning when he voted. Lurkers can sometimes be scum (most times). Depends on the person and if they know how to bluff well in these games.

Pointless comments, wishy washy and contraditory or also how I evaluate scum. Lurkers go on there because it's easy not to say much and vote out town as scum then trying to be involved in the conversation.

Pointless, wishy washy and contradictory are all valid scumtells in most cirumcstances...but lurking? It is easy to lurk and it can help scum, but lurking is not itself

scummy

. Anti-town, sure, but not scummy.

but wouldn't you agree that anyone that is anti-town should lynched?
i say either let them participate or lynch them

Absolutely not.

Town wins by lynching scum, not by lynching the anti-town. Now, I don't mean that lynching anti-town is always stupid. The classic "We don't want the active lurker in WIFOM" is a good example of where it can be a very good idea to lynch a lurker. But just lynching players who are anti-town as a matter of policy is doomed to fail - because town can easily be anti-town.

[dahill1]

yeah i can see what you're saying
but they really should still participate

[The Fonz]

I'm mildly curious as to why no-one's answered my question about what they think SC's motive to act like that as scum could have been.

I'd also like him to answer Vollkan's questions. What was so scummy about Kab's, effectively, giving up that turned him from likely town to likely scum in your eyes?

[Spacecase]

@Rigel: to answer your question, see the part below about how I feel that Justin's placing the second vote was designed to strengthen the wagon enough that it would reach a lynch. Answers to Justin follow.

There is definitely something odd about his claims on vollkan and then vollkan voting for him, but I don't consider that vote worthy alone.

This was meant to mean that Kab's claims of understanding vollkan were strange, and that the reciprocation of vollkan voting for kab was also strange. It seems like more than a coincidence, and I can't help feeling like I should be able to see some connection, but I couldn't and can't tell what it means. It's likely just white noise, on further thought.

My vote was the second on Kabenon007, so the eager to lynch line doesn’t really play, nor does it make sense as part of a meta as I generally tend to cast a vote early based on my strongest suspicions. So could you explain how in this case it feels like I’m “eager to lynch”?

The second vote is the one that transforms it from one person's opinion to a (very small) wagon. It really picks up steam more around the 3rd/4th votes, but the second vote can be a good time for a scum player to nudge a case on a townie forward, while being early enough to avoid claims of wagoning the next day. Adding significant reasoning to it can also add staying power to the wagon - however, in your case, that's just normal meta. I'd be more concerned if you hadn't. So it seemed to me like your ultimate goal was to see the wagon through to the end. In other words, you seemed certain you weren't making a mistake.

Can you explain how my case being “100% true”can be made to comfortably coexist with your previous statement “I'm just not really seeing the case, honestly.”? This could just be a byproduct of what you said in your answer to Vollkan, that you mangled the earlier post, but on its face it certainly seems contradictory.

The tone part will be harder to explain, and I'd admit that it's flimsy. The 100% true part is simpler. You don't have to distort facts in order to make a bad case. If you're town you can honestly believe a case and still be wrong. If you're scum you can present true statements which simply don't prove the case (easy enough, as no 100% proof is ever really possible). Summarize some of the questionable things he's done, and then jump to the conclusion that he was scum based on it. Town players always make mistakes. Cases aren't built on perfect information, so at some point every case has to make a leap of faith. Going from "he said A, B, and C" to "he is scum" isn't always true. You got A, B, and C right, but I just didn't see the final "he is scum" as being very convincing.

Shteven, your posts above show that you’ve done no real scum hunting since suspicion first started turning against Kabenon007. You’ve given no reasons, outside of my dangerous self using a tone you didn’t like for not wanting to see Kabenon lynched. You’ve asked a total of one question to people on the Kabenon007 wagon. And if you are “concerned about lynching a town player” should you be willing, having done nothing to look for other suspects or poke holes in the case against Kabenon, to accept “the event you are lynched, which seems likely at this point.”?

Because the behavior above looks a lot more like someone who doesn’t want to be associated with a lynch than it does someone who doesn’t trust it and would like to see it stopped. To that end, Shteven, before deadline could you give us some idea of your suspicions, if you have any? And, if you have any, your specific problems with the case on Kabenon007?

Thank you for any responses.

This is entirely fair. I have been lazy. It could be an overreaction to my two other current games where I actively mislynched a town role on both day 1's. This game is somewhat on day 1, with the speedy day 1. In any case, you're right to call me on it, and I was wondering when someone would. Here's some suspects I have, although I'm not certain on them.

1) Justin. Obvious from the above and nothing solid, but as noted, I don't like the way you entered the kab wagon. It's hard for me to quantify this, because your posts are very well constructed. While some people hate the length, I'm somewhat on your side on that issue. It takes a lot of mental processing to get at your intentions behind them, which is what makes it effective. I feel I should mention you're also valuable as town, and so distrusting you is a risk - but I'm definitely afraid of you being scum.

2) I haven't liked Vollkan's style of postings. He seems to be moderating the discussion rather than participating it. I don't know if this is a consistent play style, but most of his posts are just explaining things that have gone on between other players, sometimes including himself, but not always. He hasn't really hunted scum much. (That's some grade A hypocrisy right there!) This may seem contradictory, but I actually feel a bit of an SK vibe from him. The contradiction being that the SK has nothing to lose and much to gain from hunting mafia. Hey, I never said I was certain.

3) And in what's the opposite of what you asked, I'm thinking my vote on farside is fairly pointless now. It never was much to go on in the first place. This actually was largely an attempt to give us more choices than Kabenon vs Kabenon - but that didn't take off. I hope she wasn't really scum looking for cop claims - but if I was a townie reading my posts, I'd probably have jumped on myself for being opportunistic. Being opportunistic is a pretty hard tell to get right frequently. I've been wrong a lot - and since this is basically the case I have on Justin, it only got an IGEMOY instead of a FOS.

Unvote

If I find more I'll be certain to post them, but if I had a lot more, I wouldn't have been in this position to start with.

As I was looking though for the votes and what not I came up on this Unvote. I checked it with the previous mod update for votes and you weren't listed. Do you know who you voted for or do you not remember.

[Spacecase]

Alright The reason it was a scum wagon was because 8 people voted and its impossible for atleast one mafia member to be on the wagon and im pretty sure they were pushing it hard to.

As of people i think are suspicious, I'm going to take a stance on Shteven for the uncountd Unvote that had.

Now the reason I have felt that Kab was mafia when he made that comment is pretty hard to explain. Like I said before, it just sat wrong with me, so I went with my gut. Which was wrong afterwords.

Does this help you answer your questions?

[Phate]

Spacecase, you thought Kab was scum, but you can't give a real reason, but you want us all to accept that, but in the meantime you think that it was a scumdriven wagon?

Am I getting that right?

[MadCrawdad]

I'm mildly curious as to why no-one's answered my question about what they think SC's motive to act like that as scum could have been.

Why, if SC is scum, do you think he wouldn't have acted the way he did?

[Oman]

@MCD: I know I'm not around as much, but I did state the following that still hasn't been answered or commented on. <snip>

@ farside

Here's a quote where you mention that most of the time, lurkers are scum. As we've got several of them in this game, do you stand by your comment that most lurkers are scum?

P.S. Didn't like the case on melody man day 2, still don't. Seems to basically be "he's lurking". Probably right on that, doesn't sell me as him being scum though.

It was also his lack of reasoning when he voted. Lurkers can sometimes be scum (most times). Depends on the person and if they know how to bluff well in these games.

Pointless comments, wishy washy and contraditory or also how I evaluate scum. Lurkers go on there because it's easy not to say much and vote out town as scum then trying to be involved in the conversation.

Pointless, wishy washy and contradictory are all valid scumtells in most cirumcstances...but lurking? It is easy to lurk and it can help scum, but lurking is not itself

scummy

. Anti-town, sure, but not scummy.

From my latest research, there is no benefit for a town lurking, but that doesn't stop them from doing it.

[Oman]

I'm mildly curious as to why no-one's answered my question about what they think SC's motive to act like that as scum could have been.

Just for me, can you explain what you mean by "act like that"? Do you mean lurking?

[Rigel]

I'm not really sure what we're doing here. Nothing has really happened since my last post, save a lot of talk and not a lot of answers. Spacecase still hasn't given a reason for switching to vote for Kabenon, but it doesn't look like he even has one. Thus, I still feel comfortable with voting for him at this time.

Spacecase, I would like you to answer me one question: aside from the "because I am town" argument, can you give me any solid reason why I should be voting for someone else at this given moment? Or better yet, who do you think is scummy? All your posts today have been about your reason for voting Kab, and I already think that's scummy. But you haven't done anything but defend yourself, and I want to know if you have any actual opinions regarding the game thus far.

[vollkan]

@Spacecase:

You do realise how ridiculously hypocritical you are being?

You accuse the wagon of being scum-driven, despite the fact that you yourself probably cast the scummiest vote of all. Your justifications have been sliding all over the place and now it comes down to "gut" (word of advice, never use

that

word in a game with me. Ever.)

I'm mildly curious as to why no-one's answered my question about what they think SC's motive to act like that as scum could have been.

Which post?

[The Fonz]

I'm mildly curious as to why no-one's answered my question about what they think SC's motive to act like that as scum could have been.

Why, if SC is scum, do you think he wouldn't have acted the way he did?

I've already explained this- there's no possible benefit. The Kab lynch was the only game in town. He was going to be lynched, whether or not spacecase supported it, the deadline was looming fast, Kab was at -1 and had basically appeared to give up, and there was no other wagon available. SC stood to gain a few townie points by defending a townie.

By switching, having been adamant about Kab's innocence, he didn't further any scum objectives, since Kab would have been lynched anyway, and he just made himself look more suspicious due to the difficulty of reconciling the two positions.

Now, it's possible spacecase

is

just really dumb scum. If people believe that, I'd like them to say so. If there's some other reason you think scum SC would have chosen to hammer Kab, I'd like to hear that also.

@Oman: No, I wasn't talking about lurking. Lurking has obvious benefits for scum, though it is harder to get away with when you're the focus of everyone's attention.

[vollkan]

I'm not sold on SC being scum, but I wouldn't put the stupidity you have raised past SC.

[The Fonz]

Spacecase, whilst you're at it:

Come now vollkan, you have to admit that some words, some turns of phrase, cause you to feel a certain way about them. Your words merely caused a scummy sensation in the pit of my stomach. I was right last time.

Could you please clarify what you mean by the last time you were right? Also you have quite a weak argument using "feelings" as your evidence in my view.

FoS Kalenon007

OK, so here, we have two posts before saying a Kab lynch would 'only hurt us' we have SC FOSing him. In addition, we have the FOS being based on the fact that 'using feelings is a weak argument.' But SC is now justifying his Kab vote on the basis of gut?

Any chance of an explanation?

[MadCrawdad]

I'm mildly curious as to why no-one's answered my question about what they think SC's motive to act like that as scum could have been.

Why, if SC is scum, do you think he wouldn't have acted the way he did?

I've already explained this- there's no possible benefit. The Kab lynch was the only game in town. He was going to be lynched, whether or not spacecase supported it, the deadline was looming fast, Kab was at -1 and had basically appeared to give up, and there was no other wagon available. SC stood to gain a few townie points by defending a townie.

By switching, having been adamant about Kab's innocence, he didn't further any scum objectives, since Kab would have been lynched anyway, and he just made himself look more suspicious due to the difficulty of reconciling the two positions.

Now, it's possible spacecase

is

just really dumb scum. If people believe that, I'd like them to say so. If there's some other reason you think scum SC would have chosen to hammer Kab, I'd like to hear that also.

@Oman: No, I wasn't talking about lurking. Lurking has obvious benefits for scum, though it is harder to get away with when you're the focus of everyone's attention.

You say that there's no possible benefit, but maybe there is. Folks generally assume that scum want to blend in and remain hidden. Therefore, when scum makes a bold move and draws some attention their way, there's always the chance that others will say "There's no way scum would have done that. It doesn't make sense that scum would do that."

With that said, Fonz, there's something I've been wondering about. The fact that you seconded or reinforced Space's hammer with one of your own seems a little odd to me, especially since it was pointed out that Kab was already dead before you voted.


Here in post 343 SC hammers Kab

A lynch, be it a townie or scum, provides information. A no-lynch at this point in the game just gives the scum another free kill. This day needs to end with a lynch. I would prefer it not be me, I would prefer myself over no lynch.

Kab, watch you said is scummy to me becasue you are trying to be "honorable", I guess you could say and just offering yourself up which I'm thinking is a last ditch effort to sway the vote away from you.

vote Kabenon007

In post 346 you announce your intention to vote Kab

Announce intention to vote Kab

Basically, I don't think town players should ever admit they'd prefer their own lynch to none. For starters, cops shouldn't, so it's giving the scum role info if you do happen to survive.

Please claim now.

Post 348 I mention that it looks like Kabenon is already dead.

Spacecase's vote for Kabenon was the hammer, wasn't it?

Post 352 you vote Kab

No, but my point

precisely

is that BY SAYING YOU WOULDN'T MIND YOUR OWN LYNCH, YOU (if town) ARE LETTING SCUM KNOW THAT YOU ARE NOT A POWERROLE.

Therefore, on a meta level, no-one who states that they don't mind being lynched should ever be allowed to live (because it's an action that has no possible benefit for a town player).

Vote: Kabenon007

Can you explain why you put your vote on Kab, even after it was pointed out that he was already dead?

[Shteven]

Unvote

If I find more I'll be certain to post them, but if I had a lot more, I wouldn't have been in this position to start with.

As I was looking though for the votes and what not I came up on this Unvote. I checked it with the previous mod update for votes and you weren't listed. Do you know who you voted for or do you not remember.

I'm somewhat unclear what you are going for here. I had been voting for Farside22 - this was day 2. I'm still voting for Spacecase here on day 3. My vote on farside22 was counted in every vote count from the second one until the final one, by which time I had unvoted.

Let's assume for a moment that the mod had in fact not counted my unvote. Please explain how that would make me scum. I assure you the mod is not actively colluding with the scum team.

So, to everyone else: Do large, obvious wagons that stall a few votes short of lynch imply the mafia aren't lynching their partner or that they don't want to be caught killing another townie (or insert 3rd option)? Why hasn't this wagon reached 8, and what, if anything, can be inferred? Or am I trying to infer too much from players who are not voting simply because they're inactive?

[LaptopGun]

@Fonz I am more inclined to believe that Spacecase is town based on 2 things, neither of which are particuarly strong. I think the stupidity factor seems to say stupid town than stupid mafia. This is admitedly speculation, but I would have thought that scum partners would defend him by now. Additionally, today's wagon bears an awfully strange resemblance to the one on Kab, and we know how that one turned out. Like I said, this is by no means great reasons, but it's enough so I'm not voting him.

@Shteven I'm thinking a third option. Some mafia are on the wagon, but not all. They want to have townies provide the last few votes so they look scummy. They then can use some of the same arguments against Spacecase on the voter(s).

[LaptopGun]

@ Fonz I believe Space case is stupid townie for two admitedly weak reasons. First if he was scum I would have expected there to have been some sort of defense from his scum buddies earlier in the day. There really has been zilch on that (granted my point is highly speculative). Second, this wagon bears an awfully accurate resemblance to the one that got Kab lynched. And we all know how that one turned out.

@Shteven My 3rd option is this. Some mafia are on the current wagon, but not all. They are hanging back for one or more townies to finish off spacecase. The mafia can then use some of the same arguments used against Spacecase to go after the voter(s). That's my 2 idea, anyway.

[LaptopGun]

ABWOP Ok the site is all screwed up. I wrote the top post out, clicked post, and got an error message (something about not being able to post so soon after my most recent post). When I clicked back my analysis was gone. I rewrote it and posted that. Now I see I've made both posts were registered. I have no clue what's going on, but sorry for the redundancy.

[dahill1]

@Fonz I am more inclined to believe that Spacecase is town based on 2 things, neither of which are particuarly strong. I think the stupidity factor seems to say stupid town than stupid mafia. This is admitedly speculation, but I would have thought that scum partners would defend him by now. Additionally, today's wagon bears an awfully strange resemblance to the one on Kab, and we know how that one turned out. Like I said, this is by no means great reasons, but it's enough so I'm not voting him.

his scum partners could either be bussing him right now, or they realized he's a lost cause and just let him be lycnhed

@Shteven I'm thinking a third option. Some mafia are on the wagon, but not all. They want to have townies provide the last few votes so they look scummy. They then can use some of the same arguments against Spacecase on the voter(s).

but you're right about this they could be already on the wagon, and putting the scumminess on townies