Mini 1107: Just a Game (Game Over)

[Tasky]

VOTECOUNT 1.3

Neruz (4/7): Hiraki, ICEninja, Parama, Riceballtail
Parama (4/7): werewolf555, Neruz, Withnail, Nobody Special
Withnail (1/7): mockingjaye
ICEninja (1/7): Vigilante Ventriloquist

Not Voting: sordros, Cecily

Deadline is Thursday, 27.01, 08:00 CET.

[Nobody Special]

So you're lynching me because I claimed miller, right?

In conjunction with this particular game's ruleset and Mod Notes, yes.

[Parama]

People who need to talk about this shocking development of my miller status:
sordros
mockingjaye
Riceballtail
ICEninja
Cecily

Also, here's the entire scumteam on a platter:
Cecily
ICEninja
Neruz

And some obvious townies:
werewolf
Hiraki
Withnail

That last votecount really helped. Two obvious townies are voting me, so one of the other two must be scum because I'm not getting to L-3 without any scum on the wagon. And there must be one scum on the Neruz wagon as well, because scum can bus. And Cecily jumped ship on the Neruz wagon once it grew dangerously close to a lynch.

NS, remember my first content post? I'm just one-upping Hiraki if you know what I mean... which means of course you don't.

[Nobody Special]

I feel so left out.

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

Regarding the miller issue, I

would

agree with Nobody Special except that Tasky's rules regarding possible roles seems to come almost directly from the Normal Game Guidelines

New/variant roles may be included in limited number (no more than 1 in a Mini, 2 in a Large), and must be based on the usual game mechanics: Killing, Protecting, Investigating, Blocking, Voting.

The change Tasky made to rule 6.5 seems to bring it more in line with this, which would make sense, given that he seemed to be attempting to roughly summarize those guidelines in his rule set.

Also, here's the entire scumteam on a platter:
Cecily
ICEninja
Neruz

What's changed from post #87?

[mockingjaye]

*I am packing for a move at the end of the week and the ceiling of my bathroom caved in this afternoon, so I have been a little distracted since the last post. Sorry. :S

unvote

1. I am inclined to believe Parama's miller claim because there is zero motivation for scum-Parama to come in and make that claim unless he was trying some insane WIFOM gambit. Think about it. On the surface it would make sense because he's nullifying a guilty read on himself, but making that claim is also inviting scrutiny as well as anticipating that his play will be bad enough that he would draw an investigation right away. It makes more sense that scum would just try to blend in rather than make a claim that will draw attention to them right off the bat.

2. I'm not sure about Neruz; I read one of his games he played with a friend of mine and he was town and reacted similarly to being accused of being scum. Right now his flip would provide a lot of yummy information, though.

3. Strong scum read on ICEninja atm.
a) his reaction to Parama in post #67 and the ensuing discussion; it comes across as ICE trying to curry favor with Parama to avoid being attacked by him.
b) his defense of those accused of tunneling on neruz; rather than just worrying about himself, he defends Hiraki and Parama as well; as both of them are active and perhaps more aggressive than other players, this again reads as ICE buying points to appear more town.

Vote: ICEninja

[Parama]

Also, here's the entire scumteam on a platter:
Cecily
ICEninja
Neruz

What's changed from post #87?

Well...
1. I reread starting from my claim
2. ICE is scum
3. ICE made some sort of attack on you

Yes I know scum can bus, but the way ICE is playing, it'd shock me if he was bussing BOTH buddies. Sure, he's bussing Neruz but that wagon is, unfortunately, falling apart.

[Neruz]

Ok, so my next post turned out to be too big, so i'll have to break it into two halves.

Wow, that's a hell of a lot to happen while i was asleep and i can only say that Vigilante gets gigantic town points for not falling silently into the wagon and actually comprehending as well as reading the posts involved in the discussion.

The following is my thoughts and responses to everything that happened while i slept. It is somewhat of a wall of text, so i have put it inside this spoiler so as to not unneccessarily bloat the thread, since the walls are starting to get out of hand.

A lot of what i say here has already been covered by other players, which is a pleasant change from my prior experiences on this site.

NOTE: Wall of text located in following post due to post size restrictions.

I think that's probably enough for now, i will however

FOS: ICEninja

because he's suddenly taken a turn for the worse in the last page or so which has rather neatly undone all the good work he had going for him when he was trying to encourage discussion. With VV having come in and engaged in some of the best town scumhunting i've seen in a long time, his immediate response is to issue a blanket statement that his posting is aweful, i really can't see any town motivation for doing that. I'm also really interested in this tidbit:

This in particular is TERRIBLE. It just shows how little you understood the events that happened. I attacked Hiraki for the "I'm town amirite" statement, and then I defended the rest of his post that I never attacked. Everything that you're saying right here simply never happened.

Because it appears to indicate that ICE is a hypocrite; when he attacks someone, it's only for certain parts of the post, but when i attack someone it

must

be for the whole thing. I'm not allowed attack someone for specifics, but ICE is. Bit of a double standard there. (Note that i am referring to my reaction to Hiraki's reason for voting me initially, ICE continues to insist that he knows why i attacked Hiraki while i do not.)

The other big thing is what mockingjaye said about his reaction to VV's tunneling accusation. Not only did he vehmently deny it despite evidence to the contrary, but he defended Parama and Hiraki too which i'm finding extremely suspicious. Because of Hiraki's interaction with ICE and Parama i'm actually going to relenquish my town sticky on him because i suspect i may have been blinded by his stupidity.

I think that covers everything i wanted to say.

[Neruz]

Spoiler: Wall of Words

If anyone else shows up guilty to a cop report, then you can lynch them up, but if I show up guilty, you have proof of my innocence.

I'm not sure what to get from this, the fact that Parama has

completely

missed the point on Millers is kind of a problem, but i'm not sure if his assuming that he isn't lying about his claim is a scumtell or a towntell.

Town players aren't supposed to scumhunt and completely own scum? News to me.

While i enjoy a bit of sarcasm as much as the next man (probably more than to be honest), at least try and make your sarcasm address a point that was actually brought up in the post you are responding to, rather than making up a point to do so.

It's called bandwagoning, and when the wagon's on scum, it earns town points. Because EVERYONE needs to write a wall-o-text case to place their vote on someone, right?

Overexxagurate some more! A wall of text isn't neccessary (although apparently popular), but

something

would be nice.

Also lurking isn't a scumtell.

Since when?
Actually, you're half right, it's more of an anti-town tell than a scumtell, which is arguably worse, not better.

To be perfectly honest, the only people who actually look town at the moment are Hiraki and ICE, and i only think Hiraki looks town because he really doesn't look scum.

Not looking scum =/= town, that means he looks null to you.

No, null means i can't tell if someone is scum or town, Hiraki looks town because the way he is acting fits more to the 'town who thinks he was

so

clever' than it does to scum. I'm not seeing a whole lot of reasons why Hiraki is town, but i am seeing a lot of reasons why he

isn't

scum.
That said, i will leave the poosibility open that he is a Serial Killer. He is drawing a bit much attention to himself for that, but i'm not quite discounting it yet.

To be perfectly honest, the only people who actually look town at the moment are Hiraki and ICE, and i only think Hiraki looks town because he really doesn't look scum.

...

and ICE?

ICE looked (past tense intentional) town because he was encouraging discussion and thinking rather than just doing the Mafia equivilant of "lolneruzisscum voteplzkthx"

Alright. Here's where I'm going to rant. Parama's claim is null. It could go both ways at this point. Parama could be scum trying to confuse town(more likely a tracker/watcher roles) or Parama is town trying to confuse scum. Either/or, no one is lynching Parama based on the fact that he claimed Miller. So, stop talking about it today.

Not true, Parama's claim has been brought up several times as part of the reasoning behind lynching him, in fact a reasonable case can even be made to suggest that Parama is a decent Free Lynch purely because of his claim as it removes an anti-town role and a potential source of WIFOM which is always a good thing. Combine that with the fact that Miller was

not

mentioned as a possible role, along with Tasky's rather obvious fumble save and i'd say Parama's claim is a pretty solid reason to lynch him all by itself, even if you discount the rather scummy behaviour he's shown so far.

To be perfectly honest, the only people who actually look town at the moment are Hiraki and ICE, and i only think Hiraki looks town because he really doesn't look scum.

I know I already quoted this, but I need to come back to it. Stating on it from the before post without the evidence I have obtained now would be annoying. So just read again.

Neruz says I don't look scum.

But...

There's nowhere for me to go at this point. I've already explained and defended myself, and i've been ignored and countered with lies and fabrications.

First off, if I'm lying, then I should be scum for lying.

Lying is by no means purely the realm of the scum. And i never accused you of lying, the lying accusation was directed at Parama for his "Neruz claimed scum" nonsense. I could also arguably throw it at ICE for his obsession with calling me jumpy, but i think that's more a case of false assumptions rather than malicious fabrication.

To be perfectly honest, the only people who actually look town at the moment are Hiraki and ICE, and i only think Hiraki looks town because he really doesn't look scum.

So this means that everyone else is null? Which means, because I am null, according to you, everyone is null? You have

no

scum reads?

Quick! Jump to more conclusions! Everyone knows jumping to conclusions is an excellent way to scumhunt and is the pinnacle of town play!
Yes of course, everyone else is null, that's why i've accused Parama of being scum and are voting him,

because i think he's a null tell.

Jesus christ Hiraki, unless you are

actually

a monkey on a typewriter, pay some attention to what you're typing.

Reading posts from Hiraki, Parama, and ICEninja is becoming painful. The three of you are so tunneled at this point you're taking anything Neruz does and calling it scummy. Take a step back and try to look at this from a less biased position and see what you think.

He has basically, if not fully, given up. If that's not scum there, I don't know what is.

I'd given up trying to defend myself to you, ICE and Parama because i had plenty of evidence to show that you were all ignoring my attempts at defending myself, so excuse me for not feeling like talking to a brick wall, or three.

That's bullshit and you know it. His posts on Page 3 are an easy tell of that. Apparently the town has been fabricating lies to make him look like scum.

Really? Where did i say that, precisely that. Point to where in my posts i said that town was fabricating lies to make me look like scum. Be specific now, we wouldn't want any misunderstandings.

Fair enough. I propose that anyone else with a role not in the list from rule 6.4 claims so right now.

^scum #2

The panic i'm seeing in this post is golden. Vigilante's suggestion is about as town as it gets, i only wish i could have seen your face when you read his post.

I don't see the point in claiming

Because the mod has confirmed that only one role other than the roles listed in 6.4 may exist in the game,

Parama has already claimed that role

, if someone else counterclaims him, then we know for a fact that one of them is lying scum. I'm struggling to see how you could have missed this if you are town.

If something has already expressly been said I will not bother to repeat it because it is tedious work for everyone else reading it. I promise, my opinions come from careful readings and like I said very directly in my first post, most of my posts are very short.

That's fine, but you

need

to indicate this, we can't take your word for it. I don't mind if your explanations for voting are little more than pointing out what you agree and disagree with, but you need to put something there, otherwise you just look like you're either buddying or opportunistic.

I get on when I can in ten minute bursts and then have other things that need my attention.

I have to ask, if you can only get in ten minute bursts, how can your opinions come from careful readings? You seem to be contradicting yourself a little here and i'm getting the feeling you're trying to leave yourself an escape route for lurking, which is making me a sad panda.

Alright I have a lot to comment on. A majority will be directed to Vigilante because his first post was so bad, but a few things first:

Being one of the last players to arrive, and then claiming Miller, is more suspicious than an average Miller claim. Parama could be Mafia who was waiting to see whether anyone else claimed Miller ... before he decided to come forward.

He was one of the first to confirm, so this point is null.

How does that change the point? Withnail's point is that Parama might have been waiting to see if anyone else claimed Miller, when he confirmed is irrelevant to that.

[sordros]

Hello there.
It's nice to join this happy bunch. Seems like I have some LONG reading ahead of me, so I'll try to catch up quickly and start contributing soon.

[Riceballtail]

Unvote

Parama's claim + the following mod clarification really irks me.

If anyone has a claim that is not on the list given in the rules post, you should speak up, and we'll get a lynch going.

[sordros]

Unvote

Parama's claim + the following mod clarification really irks me.

If anyone has a claim that is not on the list given in the rules post, you should speak up, and we'll get a lynch going.

I don't think such a claim would accomplish anything. On one side, if it is a mafia role, they are obviously not going to claim, unless fake claiming something pro-town. If it is pro-town, it is just asking to be hit by the mafia, or expecting to be a pro-town doctor out there.

At any rate, I don't think it is a good idea.

[Withnail]

Other people have already pointed out errors in things that ICEninja has said. But I don't think this one has been commented on:

Being one of the last players to arrive, and then claiming Miller, is more suspicious than an average Miller claim. Parama could be Mafia who was waiting to see whether anyone else claimed Miller ... before he decided to come forward.

He was one of the first to confirm, so this point is null.

Parama may have been one of the first to

confirm

, but he was one of the last to post

after the game started

. So his claim of Miller, coming after many other people had posted, is more suspicious than a Miller claim at the start of the game. The point is not "null".

I'm getting the impression that Parama, Hiraki and ICEninja are doing more than simply agreeing with one another about the attack on Neruz. They are also defending one another. I think this is interesting ... a lynch of Parama or ICEninja might reveal some useful information.

[Parama]

I DIDN'T KNOW THE GAME HAD STARTED.

[Hiraki]

I'm getting the impression that Parama, Hiraki and ICEninja are doing more than simply agreeing with one another about the attack on Neruz. They are also defending one another. I think this is interesting ... a lynch of Parama or ICEninja might reveal some useful information.

Best
Scumhunter
Ever

By the way. Why would Parama call ICENinja scum, if we're defending each other. Hell, why would I do the same? I could see something along the lines of Hiraki/Parama, but Parama/ICE?

Totally wrong.

I'd like to reassess my thinking on Neruz for a moment. Since he has defended, and adequately, to say the least, I may switch my vote for today. However, there are a few things that touched my mind.

First off, Parama has given discussion and content.

Hiraki looks town because the way he is acting fits more to the 'town who thinks he was so clever' than it does to scum. I'm not seeing a whole lot of reasons why Hiraki is town, but i am seeing a lot of reasons why he isn't scum.

Starting discussion shouldn't make me look townie/not scum.

I'd given up trying to defend myself to you, ICE and Parama because i had plenty of evidence to show that you were all ignoring my attempts at defending myself, so excuse me for not feeling like talking to a brick wall, or three.

This is why the vote stays on.

Really? Where did i say that, precisely that. Point to where in my posts i said that town was fabricating lies to make me look like scum. Be specific now, we wouldn't want any misunderstandings.

There's nowhere for me to go at this point. I've already explained and defended myself, and i've been ignored and countered with lies and fabrications.

While you did not say town, I don't believe you think that everyone against you is scum. #71 btw.

The panic i'm seeing in this post is golden. Vigilante's suggestion is about as town as it gets, i only wish i could have seen your face when you read his post.

Really? So let's say the role is Non-Trackable Townie, the townie should claim? Which one would you lynch then? Parama or that townie?

Withnail's point is that Parama might have been waiting to see if anyone else claimed Miller, when he confirmed is irrelevant to that.

Which is a horrible point, btw. Why would Parama wait for anyone to claim Miller if the original list of players had

nothing

about millers? Mind that this was a Day Start. This doesn't make sense.

[Cecily]

I feel like Parama's miller claim, while random and new to me, isn't enough to claim him scum. It's a risky move by anybody but I think he put it out there to have us confused and go through this conversation so we'd listen to him more when it was irrefutably proven that he was town by his own words or words of anyone but the cop. While it's a bad idea for anyone, I don't see why any scum would put himself in that position.

I'm halfway waiting for ICE to drop his vote on Neruz to make it a very obvious scum pair there, but atm ICE is claiming things that while they may have some amount of legitimacy to them, seem more like he's trying to cover his own ass by accusing Neruz and hoping people hop on that wagon.
They are both giving me scummy reads, but my reasoning is telling me that only one could possibly be. Neruz's points seem more valid than ICE's so for now I'm on the ICE train.

And please don't accuse me of just wagon hopping. Seriously, I do read this stuff, I just don't have the patience to go through quoting as much as most of you do. If anyone seems like they're just laying in the background it's riceballtail.

he hasn't given anything other than obvious reasoning that everyone else seems to be past to cast her votes/unvotes. Totally wouldn't shock me if

he weren't truly reading most of this stuff and instead just hopping on the easiest wagon to lie low and keep people from looking into her/him.

[Parama]

I'm halfway waiting for ICE to drop his vote on Neruz to make it a very obvious scum pair there

Hypocrisy!~

[Neruz]

This is why the vote stays on.

Really? Where did i say that, precisely that. Point to where in my posts i said that town was fabricating lies to make me look like scum. Be specific now, we wouldn't want any misunderstandings.

There's nowhere for me to go at this point. I've already explained and defended myself, and i've been ignored and countered with lies and fabrications.

While you did not say town, I don't believe you think that everyone against you is scum. #71 btw.

And yet you're still wrong. I'm not going to repeat the lies again because i'm pretty sure i've already said it a couple of times, but i did not say that the town was fabricating lies to make me look like scum, and i did not feel that way either. The town was lying to

justify their preconcieved notions that i was already scum.

It's a huge, huge difference, the former is a gigantic scumtell, the latter is just what people do; noone likes to be wrong.

By saying that the town is lying to make me look like scum you add the implication that it is deliberate, i doubt that it was anything of the sort.

Although

, given that the only people who really responded to me rather than just voting for the hell of it were you, ICE and Parama, and i don't think you actually lied, it's more than possible that the town was not in fact involved in any lies or fabrications at all.

That's why i said to be specific Hiraki; by saying that i said that the town was making up lies about me, you're adding an implication of maliciousness and deliberation which quite simply is not there. Implications are important, as are people's

exact

words. If you're going to accuse someone of saying something, make sure you say exactly what they did, and if you're summarising make it extremely clear as such. I've seen people get lynched purely because they were misquoted by scum.

Really? So let's say the role is Non-Trackable Townie, the townie should claim? Which one would you lynch then? Parama or that townie?

I'm not sure what you mean by Non-Trackable Townie, but yes. I'd lynch Parama first, and if he flipped town, i'd lynch the 'townie', because one of them is guaranteed to be scum or the mod has lied about his setup.

Which is a horrible point, btw. Why would Parama wait for anyone to claim Miller if the original list of players had nothing about millers? Mind that this was a Day Start. This doesn't make sense.

I didn't say if it was a good point or not, i just said that the time at which he confirmed was irrelevant to the point. And i believe it's fairly well established that Parama didn't even know that list of roles existed, and as Miller is a fairly well known and not uncommon role i see no reason why Parama scum could not have decided to fakeclaim Miller if it looks good during early d1 under the assumption that Millers would be listed as a possible role. This is, after all, a Mini Normal,

not

a Mini Open.

[Nobody Special]

I DIDN'T KNOW THE GAME HAD STARTED.

The Nazis tried that trick, too. Die, scum.


Neruz is Town++.

[Cecily]

I'm halfway waiting for ICE to drop his vote on Neruz to make it a very obvious scum pair there

Hypocrisy!~

I dropped my vote on him because I realized that much had changed when I read what was posted after my initial voting. A few players had not even been acknowledged at that point. I understand why you're calling me out, but I feel at this point an unvote would mean much more than mine did.

[Parama]

Fine.
I claim scum.

unvote, vote: Parama

My partners are Cecily, Neruz, and ICEninja.

[Nobody Special]

Nono, Neruz is Town++.

Please pay attention!

[Parama]

NS, do you wanna take Neruz's place on my scumteam?

[Parama]

Hey, NS.
Would you help push a ICEninja wagon to completion?

[Nobody Special]

...Yes, actually.

Even though I'm convinced (convinced! I tell you!) that

you're

scum, you

could be

3rd party.

Or you could be opportunistically bussing.

Either way, ICEninja is also scummy.