Policy Discussion: "Normal"

[Mr. Flay]

Except that MBL made a really good point in the related thread:

A newbie comes to a site called "Mafiascum".

They're intrigued by the opportunity to roleplay a bunch of Mafia guys running around shooting innocents.

They complete a newbie game and sign up for another, where they're a Cop chasing after a bunch of Mafia guys who are shooting innocents.

Amazingly, this is still exciting and new for them. They do not in the least regret being unable to play a Habanero Pepper in a Trenchcoat searching for the Evil that is Sour Cream and Guacamole.

They like mafia so much they decide to sign up for a second simultaneous game in the Theme forum, where if they wish they are able to join PJ's game in which various flavors of peanut butter combat the evil bottles of nutella attempting to infiltrate the tasty town.

Free choice abounds, Big Brother is relegated to SK in Thok's 1984 theme game, and fun is had by all.

Where's the problem with this scenario?

If 'flavor' is allowed in Normal games, then there's no guarantee that what you're playing is 'Mafia', which is ostensibly what people came here to play. Let them

choose

to play Taco Mafia or Tuthreded or whatever, rather than having to guess from the title (or worse, no clue at all) that what they're playing is only related in Game Mechanics to Mafia/Werewolf.

[Thestatusquo]

I'm sorry, but there is no concievable way that you can convince me that
light flavor =/= mafia. It just is too much of a stretch.

[IH]

....For MBL's point to become valid, you're going to need more than just a hypothetical scenario Flay...

[Mr. Flay]

TSQ: I think I'm confused on what you're considering 'light flavor', then. Is Early Morning lightly flavored? Is The 300 Mafia lightly flavored? What about a game utilizing the Yakuza? The problem is that 'theme' has been dual-purposed to mean both theme/flavor, and changes to game mechanics.

::edit:: Not sure what you mean, IH. Several people in the other thread have said that they were confused by 'flavored' newbies. What's hypothetical about that?

[Thestatusquo]

I can not comment on early morning, as I am in it. I shall not comment about 300, because I know nothing.

Yes, I am aware of the fact that it HAS been used that way, but that's descriptive instead of prescriptive. Making an argument for how something is doesn't at all change how it should be.

In my opinion flavor is defined as extra non game changing information, and 'theme' refers to complexity of mechanics.

[IH]

MBL wasn't talking about getting confused. MBL was talking about people not enjoying flavor. Being completely happy to play just mafia games with no flavor at all, getting down to the core of the game.

I'm not really sure what MBL was even talking about with that post though. He makes it seem like every single newbie would be happy to play mafia, and go no further, presenting extreme role ideas.

What I'm saying though, is for MBL's comment to be valid, you're going to need to find AT LEAST more than one newbie who does not enjoy flavor, and feels no regret at being a 'cool' role.

To simply only be a townie the majority of time with no expectations of the game to grow, and this is all there is to it.

[Yosarian2]

Yeah, I don't really like the idea of trying to "simplify" or de-flavor-ise the normal forum just on the theory that some hypothetical newbie might not come to the site if some games are flavored. If some people are seriously annoyed that there aren't more "pure" mafia flavored games here, that's one thing, but I see no reason to think that newbies would think differently. I mean, newbie games and open games are all mafia flavored now, so it's not like a newbie won't ever see a mafia flavored game.

[Mr. Flay]

I can not comment on early morning, as I am in it. I shall not comment about 300, because I know nothing.

I'm not really sure what MBL was even talking about with that post though. He makes it seem like every single newbie would be happy to play mafia, and go no further, presenting extreme role ideas.

What I'm saying though, is for MBL's comment to be valid, you're going to need to find AT LEAST more than one newbie who does not enjoy flavor, and feels no regret at being a 'cool' role.

To simply only be a townie the majority of time with no expectations of the game to grow, and this is all there is to it.

C'mon guys, read the thread at least. Early Morning (I hate to keep picking on that game, but it's current) renamed roles completely away from the 'Mafia' theme. The 300 was a Newbie Game with roles from the film. MBL is talking about someone who wants to play 'Mafia' first, then branch out into themed games. It's not that hard.

Yes, I am aware of the fact that it HAS been used that way, but that's descriptive instead of prescriptive. Making an argument for how something is doesn't at all change how it should be.

I simply must be misunderstanding you here. Do you want the site to be descriptive or prescriptive? Because mith has been

trying

to make Normals and Newbies be Normal for at least a year (and has ALWAYS intended them to be so), which counts as both in my book. And the distinction is supposed to have been there since Theme Park and Themed Minis existed, but people disregard it regularly, and the List Mods have

asked

people if their game was normal, and then seen it go up with theme/flavor. Does that obviate mith's prerogative to have the site organized the way he wants? If so, go hive off somewhere and form your own site.

Look.

No one

is trying to do away with themed/flavored games in any way, shape, or form. All mith is asking for is a little truth-in-advertising, and I don't think that's too much to ask.

In my opinion flavor is defined as extra non game changing information, and 'theme' refers to complexity of mechanics.

Finally, we agree on something! I think the subforum idea has merit; maybe it would make more sense to have Normal Games, Theme Games, and Mafia Mutations as the major forums, with Little Italy and Sicily/New York under the first, Coney Island and unnamed-Themed-Large-Games-forum under the second, and Theme Park reserved for really weird mechanics changes and the like, no matter what the size.

[superstring91]

I think this whole discussion, as you could probably have guessed from my last comment is preposterous. If it ain't broke, then don't fucking fix it. There is nothing at all wrong with the way games are set up/ divided now. The rules should just be changed to reflect what has been going on for EVER, and that should be that. I think an overwelming majority of people on this site would favor the term 'normal' allowing flavor. We should just do that, and all this will disapear.

i totally agree that normal should allow some flavor. that's what ive been saying. we just have to draw the line between flavor and a theme

[IH]

Look. No one is trying to do away with themed/flavored games in any way, shape, or form.

All mith is asking for is a little truth-in-advertising, and I don't think that's too much to ask.

No, what's going to happen is that there are only going to be two types of games. Normal
and themed.

With themed falling under the category as most people define it. Some uber weird mechanic.

There are few people who are going to wait through the mini theme list mod queue, or large theme to run a normal game with some flavor, but with roles and gameplay essentially the same.

= (

Surely you understand that, correct? It's not that you guys are trying to eradicate it, it's that in the process they will be erradicated from so few mods wanting to actually run them.

[Yosarian2]

Anyway, if we wanted to really make a list of all the "normal" roles (and again, I would suggest that the list be only a reccomendation for most of the roles in the game, not a hard-and-fast limitation) it would be quite a long list, and would have to keep in mind the common variations of those roles, because, for example, a mafia godfather who can't be nightkilled is actually quite a different role then a mafia godfather who can't be investigated. Hmm, let's see..


Anti-town roles:
Mafia
Mafia godfather
Variation 1: Can't be nightkilled
Variation 2: Shows up innocent to investation
Variation 3: Can't be nightkilled and shows up innocent to investation
Variation 4: Just sends in nightkill, no special abilities
Variation 5-8: Same as 1-4, but Godfather does not know which one he is.
Mafia roleblocker
Mafia scum mason
Mafia doc
Mafia role cop
Mafia spy/traitor
Mafia redirector (?)
Mafia Assassin (?)

Werewolves, with all roles above being possible

SK
Variation 1: Can't be nightkilled
Variation 2: Shows up innocent to investation
Variation 3: Both
Variation 4: Standard, no extra protections
Variation 5: Arsonist


Cult leader: too many variations to list; the main (although not only) variables are (dies when target mafia/not); (every night/every other night/limited number of shots); (whole cult dies if cult leader dies/not); (New cult leader nominated if leader dies/not)

Neutral roles:
Lyncher
Survivor (?)
Jester (?)
Siblings/twins

Pro-town roles:
Townie
Vengeful Townie (Might as well include this so vengeful mafia is still legal, heh)
Cop; variations are:
Insane cop
Naive cop
Paranoid cop
Backup cop
Deputy
Role cop
Gunsmith
Tracker
Night watchman
FBI agent (?)
One-shot cop
Cowardly Reporter

Doctor:
Variation 1: Standard; can't protect self, can protect others
Variation 2: Can protect self, can not protect same person two days in a row.
Variation 3 (AKA Quack): does nothing, completly ineffective
Variation 4: Insane doctor
One-shot doctor
Back-up doc/Nurse
Bodyguard
Variation 1: Bodyguard dies, target lives
Variation 2: Bodyguard lives, target lives, scum dies
And other variations with any combination in between
Psychologist (?)
Archangel (?)
Jailkeeper

Duel back-up (becomes either cop or doc based on which one dies first)

Roleblocker
Redirector

Vig
One-shot vig
Limited # of shots vig
Odd/even night vigs
Dayvig
Mad bomber
Army Veteren
Must kill every night vig (?)

Double voter
Mayor
Inventor (several variations) (?)

Self-protecting:
Unkillable
Bulletproof vest (usually one-shot)
Commuter
Hider
Paranoid gun owner

Mason
Variation 1: standerd
Variation 2: told they are all pro-town, so they know there's no chance of a scum mason

Miller (Note that this can be combined with any other pro-town role; miller vig, miller cop, ect)

Post restricted (too many variation to mention)


And there's probably some I'm forgetting. I put a ? next to those that might not be normal, IMHO, but if we were going to have a list it would have to be at least this long, unless we're trying to dumb down normal games to try and make it easier for newbies, which would be a shame I think.

[Mr. Flay]

There are few people who are going to wait through the mini theme list mod queue, or large theme to run a normal game with some flavor, but with roles and gameplay essentially the same.

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree. The Mini Theme Queue is 9 mods long right now (less than two months, last I checked), with less people in it than the Mini Normal list for some reason. When I ran Reservoir Dogs, the list was about six months long!

Unless you're claiming that most of the people in Mini Normal want to run flavored games, I think there's too much hype to this claim. And if there is, then I'm sure something can be worked out, if demand is that high. MeMe might be able to supply numbers on how many games have started in Coney Island and Little Italy since the split, or how many old games had to be migrated to CI.

And there

is no waiting list

to run a Large Theme game, you just have to get stamped by Phoebus after running two other games. That seems to take a week or two, tops, once you get your game worked out. There used to be a Theme Queue but it was abandoned years ago in favor of the open model of the Theme Park.

[Yosarian2]

So the question is, does a game that's mechanically normal, and has no real theme with recognisable character names or out-of-game-information, but has some non-mafia flavor, better fit in the normal forums or in the theme forums?

I'd tend to think it makes more sense in the normal forums, as the game would run much more like a normal game then a theme game, and it'd make more sense to use the "normal games" modding requirements rather then the "theme games" modding requirements consdering the relitive simplicity of the game. I guess we could make a new sub-forum for lightly flavored normal games, but why?

[Thok]

Much of the reason for the shortness of the Mini Theme Queue is the new modding requirements, which forces new mods to go through one of Open Games/Mini Normal Queue at least once before they can go to the Mini theme Queue. I think 11 out of the 14 people currently on the Mini Normal list have never run a game before.

[Kelly Chen]

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree. The Mini Theme Queue is 9 mods long right now (less than two months, last I checked), with less people in it than the Mini Normal list for some reason. When I ran Reservoir Dogs, the list was about six months long!

Unless you're claiming that most of the people in Mini Normal want to run flavored games, I think there's too much hype to this claim.

Different modding requirements. I just glanced at the queues and that's totally the reason.

I've heard from several newer people that they want to run mini themes but can't yet, and I get the impression they see the open list or mini reg list as stepping stones to that.

EDIT: !@#$@

[superstring91]

There are few people who are going to wait through the mini theme list mod queue, or large theme to run a normal game with some flavor, but with roles and gameplay essentially the same.

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree. The Mini Theme Queue is 9 mods long right now (less than two months, last I checked), with less people in it than the Mini Normal list for some reason. When I ran Reservoir Dogs, the list was about six months long!

i think the recent influx of newbies is the explanation to this.
newbies have always been coming in, and january's batch is just now able to start modding. and the first game you run has to be in the mini normal forum.

i think our major problem in this discussion is the definition of flavor.
the way i see flavor is:
a theme, if you will, that does not change gameplay at all, but adds setting, and enjoyment to the game. ie: sicilian, werewolf, lobsters.
a theme is:
a game that may require background information,

and

game mechanic is changed. ie: simpsons, most published works, timebomb.

[Shanba]

Eh, I mostly signed up to the mini normal queue so I can eventually run a theme game. One of the mods before said it was imply because there was a shortage of newbie game mods and signed up because of that. So at least some of the people signing up to mod mini normals arent doing it specifically to run normal games.

ATM, the mini normal queue is a bit of a chokepoint: I signed up latest, and how long will it be until I get to mod my game? Especially with the mini limit and the need for replacements, I imagine it will be quite a long time. Now I haven't been here long enough to say for sure, but I bet if you remove the light flavour from the mini theme queue, it would become even more of a chokepoint as sme players prefer to play in the games with the pretty colours and the flashing signs (I know I do).

[Yosarian2]

a theme is:
a game that may require background information,

and

game mechanic is changed. ie: simpsons, most published works, timebomb.

Well, and/or. If it requires research/uses specific character names from a specific source, then it's a theme, even if it uses all standard mafia rules and normal mafia roles fit to characters from that theme, because that alone adds a different element to the game.

[superstring91]

a theme is:
a game that may require background information,

and

game mechanic is changed. ie: simpsons, most published works, timebomb.

Well, and/or. If it requires research/uses specific character names from a specific source, then it's a theme, even if it uses all standard mafia rules and normal mafia roles fit to characters from that theme, because that alone adds a different element to the game.

ya, i was going to say that, but i forgot about it.
i agree, btw

[Mr. Flay]

You know, I forgot about the relatively new differences between Mini Normal and Mini Theme requirements, but I

am

sure that they could run Open Games as well, many of which are 5 or 7 player formats and would run even quicker than Mini Normals, right?

Hmmm. So many people are running 'lightly themed' games under the guise of Mini Normals, just so they can run heavily themed games later? That's probably a problem for mith's definition. More later, gotta go home.

[Kelly Chen]

i think our major problem in this discussion is the definition of flavor.
the way i see flavor is:
a theme, if you will, that does not change gameplay at all, but adds setting, and enjoyment to the game. ie: sicilian, werewolf, lobsters.

I'm scum in a game about Lobsters. How do I claim cop?

If the answer is anything more complicated than "I am a Lobster Cop, no flavor" then I think the lobster setting has changed the gameplay.

[Yosarian2]

i think our major problem in this discussion is the definition of flavor.
the way i see flavor is:
a theme, if you will, that does not change gameplay at all, but adds setting, and enjoyment to the game. ie: sicilian, werewolf, lobsters.

I'm scum in a game about Lobsters. How do I claim cop?

If the answer is anything more complicated than "I am a Lobster Cop, no flavor" then I think the lobster setting has changed the gameplay.

Except that can also happen in normal mafia-themed games just as easily. "I'm a cop. I'm a New York city beat cop, one of the few who hasn't sold out, and I'm trying to find out who the mafia are." Unless we're going to eliminate all mafia-related flavor as well, which would kill a lot of the fun of the game.

So long as the introductory mod post has enough information so the scum can fake claims without a problem ("The year: 1929. The City: New York. The mafia are taking over. Kill them all." and perhaps an example of the basic townie PM), and so long as the mod avoids giving away unneeded information in role PM's, I don't see a problem there.

[superstring91]

i think our major problem in this discussion is the definition of flavor.
the way i see flavor is:
a theme, if you will, that does not change gameplay at all, but adds setting, and enjoyment to the game. ie: sicilian, werewolf, lobsters.

I'm scum in a game about Lobsters. How do I claim cop?

If the answer is anything more complicated than "I am a Lobster Cop, no flavor" then I think the lobster setting has changed the gameplay.

right, i agree, and i suppose i shouldve been more specific.

if i were to run a normal, lobster flavored game, i would have roles like that.

lobster cop
doctor lobster
king crab[GF]
crab legs[mafia goons]
shrimp[townies]

i suppose that this is really seafood mafia eh?

as you can see, this doesnt change gameplay one bit, but it makes scenes that the mod writes more interesting.

EDIT:

So long as the introductory mod post has enough information so the scum can fake claims without a problem ("The year: 1929. The City: New York. The mafia are taking over. Kill them all." and perhaps an example of the basic townie PM), and so long as the mod avoids giving away unneeded information in role PM's, I don't see a problem there.

right. the intro should have plenty of information about the roles

[Thok]

lobster cop
doctor lobster
king crab[GF]
crab legs[mafia goons]
shrimp[townies]

Day 1, doc lobster is dead. Day 2, I fakeclaim scallops cop early on. Lobster cop counterclaims. I now get to say "Why is lobster both a cop and a doc? It makes no sense!" And now the theme has interferred with the game.

(Obviously in an open setup this can't matter.)

[Kelly Chen]

"I'm a cop. I'm a New York city beat cop, one of the few who hasn't sold out, and I'm trying to find out who the mafia are."

That doesn't fit my vision of normalcy I'm afraid.

My point though is as Thok posts, the definition is problematic even with superstring's simple scenario.