Policy Discussion: Newbie Games

[Mr. Flay]

I would hate to have had an IC adviser, and I think it would stifle my growth, not help it.

Pooky, I think you're underestimating the way rules get internalized by new players. Out-of-game advisers will increase the tendency to PM about other games as well. The more Newbie Games resemble other games, the better for the site; one of the objections to the old Newbie Setup was that it was artificially static, unlike almost every other game on the site at the time.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I think you guys are overestimating the effect an IC will have on a newbie, and I don't see how those who would not want an advisor would be affected by an advisor... it's just bouncing ideas around... not like the IC will be turning the newbie into a mini-me version of the IC...


Oh and flay, your hair looks gorgeous!

[gorckat]

I can imagine an IC getting flooded with PMs like:

Should I respond to that accusation?
Should I hammer so and so? (followed by) Never mind- someone else did.
(Day 1, from scum)How do I make the cop claim so I can Night kill him?
Everyone's picking on me! Help! What do I say!

And not being able to respond in time to be relevant or needing to go to the game in question and figure out what's going on.

If everyone reads a solid Day 1 from a game going from the random votes to the good discussion ending with the lynch and a quick summary of what might have happened the following days and is informed by the mod of how things generally go in the setup, then 7-0 might work ok. Especially if games are stocked with an eye towards including a few people in the queue who are playing a Newbie for a second or third time (sort of like upper-classmen mentoring freshman in a high school before going on to college and the real world :p)

[Mr Stoofer]

^^good posting.

[Peter Venkman]

Why not just get rid of the "newbie" game title completely?

The 7 player vanilla games have their own appeal, and I suspect lots of regular players enjoy them just as much as the larger games.

Present the 7 player game as being just as challenging as the larger games. Experienced players might be

more likely

to join if they aren't expected to play as teachers. New players are going to join whatever game they please, and if the "this is the place for stupid players" stigma is removed, I would assume everyone would try a 7 player game first, as they are less demanding.

-Peter

[IH]

Nah, Newbie games are a must.

I would admit that Mith has been the one to bring up the most likely scenario for a 7-0 newbie game for a strategy guide type thing, but... I don't like the idea still.

My main argument is how much the game seems to have evolved from when it was first played at GL. There is so much more based on prior experiences and such. If Newbies are left to work it out for themselves, they are clearly going to be behind.

In my mind at least, I feel we still need the IC's to help teach the newbie's, where after at least one game, we don't have to treat day 1 in over half the games as a newbie teaching day... Shortening the queue's will encourage newer players how to and such....

= |

I think you guys are overestimating the effect an IC will have on a newbie, and I don't see how those who would not want an advisor would be affected by an advisor... it's just bouncing ideas around... not like the IC will be turning the newbie into a mini-me version of the IC...


Oh and flay, your hair looks gorgeous!

It's more that the newbies would get outside help, which does violate a modkillable rule, not to mention if Newbie's don't learn without outside help, they might not be able to play normally without help...

[Fircoal]

I'd say 4-3 or 5-2, and a switch off between the 2 or...

7 IC's 0 newbies.

[Dr. Doom]

The current system is quite cool, though the 7-0 should work, too. When I began playing Mafia in the real world, the only one of us who had some knowledge of the game was the Gamemaster (the mod here). We still learned how to play the game, just by ourselves. I'm pretty sure it will work.

Oh, and Gorkcats idea sounds pretty good, too (last post on page two).

[MrBuddyLee]

The point is not that NO 7-0 games will work out well.

The point is that 7-0 games significantly increase the likelihood of a newbie having a two-month-long crappy first experience.

[Mr. Flay]

And yet, mafiascum, GL, and a dozen other sites have all had all-newbie games work out just fine. I wonder that we're being too elitist here; as mith said, some ICs are worse than having no advisor at all.

IF we go to an advisory system, I'd want them to be vetted, not just anyone who wants to sign up. And that means we will, in fact, have a greater shortage of ICs.

[mith]

Oh, sure, if we did a 1-1 advisor thing. I don't think anyone but Pooky is arguing for that though.

I could see a single "town advisor" working ok though, so long as we were carefuly about it becoming "who does the advisor think we should lynch?". Just someone to (for example):

Explain the importance of voting, while also having reasons for votes and being careful with near-lynch votes.
Discourage lurking, while also explaing the dangers of lurker-hunting.
Advise when to claim and when not to claim.
etc.

I think most things along those lines could be put into a good newbie guide, but having someone to remind and keep the town on track would be good as well, and putting

every

possible thing that could come up in a newbie guide would be too much so there would also be someone to handle those questions as they come up. And a mod can't always do that, as the mod knows who the scum are.

(Thinking about it some more, I'm not sure a pro-scum advisor would be particularly necessary, and the private nature of it would make it harder to keep an eye on.)

[Mr Stoofer]

Has anyone yet said that they wished that they had had an IC adviser?

[gorckat]

After the two games I've played here, I can say I would not want an advisor. It's nice having ICs to guide things along, but (as stated) I think the nature of the game biases their efforts. Even someone acting in the interest of the new players wants his side to win.

Sort of related to MBL's concern- When a player is signing up, is the time committment explicitly stated anywhere? Are new forum members told up front that games can take from one month to upwards of several months? I know its implied (the pace of the game allows for more logical analysis blah blah blah). The biggest reason a 7-0 would go bad is finding replacements, isn't it?

[mith]

Finding replacements wouldn't be a problem. Early in the game, stick a newbie in. Later on, I'm sure the displaced ICs would be happy to fill in.

The concern some people have is that the newbies wouldn't know what to do without ICs in the game. Personally, I don't think any sort of advisor is

necessary

if they have a good guide to start off with, but the advisor position I proposed is just an IC without the conflict of interests. I'm not sure whether the people saying "I wouldn't want an advisor" are talking about that version or Pooky's Personal Savior version.

(Either way, let's keep in mind that those of us discussing it here in MD are not the ones that would need someone guiding them anyway. It's easy to say "I wouldn't want an advisor" when it's not how you learned; just as I would've said "I don't want to play a somewhat artificial game with designated experienced players who are supposedly teaching me" when I learned...)

[gorckat]

True. I was referring to the one on one advisor, but its real easy to say I've already got my feet wet.

[JDodge]

Would an intermediate rank work? Any person who has finished at least one game would be considered an intermediate player as opposed to a new player, essentially cutting the newbie part of the newbie queue in half.

[MrBuddyLee]

The veteran exposes newbies to a critical concept early: can I trust the guy who sounds like he knows the ropes? A trusted extra-game advisor poses no such dilemma.

I had Fritzler and MeMe as two ICs in my first game here. I can't imagine I would have found Mafia nearly as fascinating if I hadn't been exposed to their experienced thought processes and considered styles of play.

[IH]

Speaking of Meme, and newbie games....

I wonder if with the increased number of them, her flavah will branch out.

That's the REAL question.

[Mr. Flay]

Say in a given month you've got 28 newbies coming in.

1-on-1 advisor requires 4 games, with 28 ICs to cater to them (assuming ICs only advise one)
3:4 setup requires 7 games, with 21 ICs to fill up the IC slots.

Another thing about 7-0: 4 games would mean having to find 3 less mods. THOSE actually seem to be the limiting factor right now, with MeMe running at least 9 on the front page of TRTR currently, I've run 6, Stoofer has run 4, and a bunch of others have run two or three.

[MeMe]

I wonder if with the increased number of them, her flavah will branch out.

According to mith's recent "hey! stop with the flavored newbies already, dammit!" mini-rant in the Newbie Queue, I'm doing

just fine

.

[Raffles]

I don't think it's any problem for newb to read mikeburnfire's flash and jump straight into a mini normal game.

I got my friend here and made him read the flash, and discussed a few tactics with him. I thought it was bit risky but signed him up for a standard 21 player game (closed) anyway. Few mishaps at the beginning, but he's playing fine now.

I brought over another friend, and made him sign up to mini normal, after telling him to read a one newb game. I'll tell you how this goes once it get's going.

[IH]

Meme, think anyone would notice if you switched two words around?

Sounds like an April Fools plan to me!

"HAH! None of you even noticed! Fooled!"

And yet,

mafiascum

, GL, and a dozen other sites have all had all-newbie games work out just fine. I wonder that we're being too elitist here; as mith said, some ICs are worse than having no advisor at all.

.... We're Mafiascum <.<;

Also, for the most part, I don't think GL games and such have the same quality of play as we do here....

[The Fonz]

Just a n00b thinking out loud here... how about having a 'second game' that's 7-0, for players who've completed one game with ICs? Then the mod goes through what happened with them after the fact, points out particularly good and bad bits of play, and perhaps suggest who might benefit from more IC games, and who might be able to progress.

[EmpTyger]

After a recent experience in N326, I would like to strongly encourage that newbie games have a 3:4 IC:newbie ratio. (Ironically, considering N326, I think I’m in strong agreement with IH in this thread.) I understand that, depending on site demographics, a proper 3:4 balance may be difficult to achieve, but I think it necessary for newbie games to have any point to them.

1) First of all, I do not believe 0:7 would achieve any purpose other than segregation. If the point of newbie games is a prerequisite to learn basics before playing in more complicated games, then how would this achieve that? If no one is familiar with concepts such as random voting, lynch-all-liars, lynch-or-lose, claiming, counterclaiming, tells, FoS, WIFOM, lurking, nightactions- then how are newbies to get exposed to them? And if they’re not exposed to basic concepts such as these, then what’s the point? They’ll still be underprepared for more complicated games. They might very well be fun- but segregated fun. And that shouldn’t be the point of the newbie forum.

As for the idea of a mod or an outside participant could provide explanations, I’m not sure that there’s an unbiased way of doing this. Moreover, this sort of out-of-game participation feels contrary to the spirit of the game, in which each player is either telling the truth or lying, and it is up to the players to determine which.

2) Secondly, I believe the 2:5 has several flaws making it unsuitable. There are 3 possible alignments for the ICs: {both mafia, 1 innocent/1 mafia, both innocent}. The mere possibility that the mafia, playing to win, might be ICs spreading misinformation, has to be taken into account with 2:5. But with an additional IC, there would be a guarantee of 1 protown IC, and thus D1 at least is guaranteed to be accurately educational. Moreover, with 3 ICs there is a greater chance that someone will be accurately educational on later days, when nightactions and lynch-or-lose become factors.

[I don’t think 1:6 is a reasonable suggestion so I will not bother to rebut it.]

I don’t want to imply that newbies are or should be reliant on ICs to win. But that’s not the whole point of newbie games. The point is also to turn newbies into ICs. A newbie game is as much an introduction to the site of mafiascum as it is to the game of mafia.

Perhaps a more pertinent question to ask is why haven’t there been enough ICs?

[Kelly Chen]

Perhaps a more pertinent question to ask is why haven’t there been enough ICs?

Yeah this is probably the big thing.

My experience is really limited, but my guess is that 7p with no predetermined deadlines and lots of expected flaking is probably not the ideal combination...