Thesp wrote:I think that Millers should claim their miller-ness on D1 right away,
ceteris parabis
. It allows the cop to investigate other people for useful results, and gets all things on the table, with no questions later. (I also think this strategy makes the miller a less interesting role from a design standpoint.)
Thoughts?
I disagree utterly.
Yosarian2 wrote:Meh. If someone claimed miller day 1 for no reason, shouldn't they be vigged night 1?
I mean, if this was an accepted stratagy, then I'd expect a large percentage of people who claimed miller early to be scum, wouldn't you?
Yes.
Mr. Flay wrote:
Adel wrote:or we can just start putting in two back-up cops in instead of a cop. Good times.
Only if the Backups have some way to become active, otherwise it's damn-near lying to your players. Otherwise, I agree with Seolimate.
I'll go one step further on Thesp's question:
I'm curious if there's ever been a game where someone claimed miller D1 and lived until the endgame,
period
.
I've never seen it used as a viable claim, despite it being one of those classic WIFOM scumclaims.
I would agree that it's not a common scumtactic. But that's in large part because people are willing to lynch claimed millers. If enough people are willing to make the wifom defence for it though, it becomes a great scumclaim, because it has all the usual benefits of an 'oops' townie claim, and it also gets rid of the vulnerability to investigation. I'd make a contrary point to Flay's- have you ever seen an antitown group NK a claimed miller?
And yes, I have changed my mind on this issue. Yay for thread liches.
Goatrevolt wrote:I've never seen scum claim miller day 1. If someone claims miller day 1 in a game I'm in, I will give them a free pass for the rest of the game.
On a more serious note, I do think it's generally more likely that a day 1 miller claim is done by a legitimate miller than adventurous scum, though. Regardless, I think the player should be evaluated on their own play merits, and not be lynched/let off the hook simply for claiming miller.
He didn't claim right away, but breadcrumbed it early and claimed it later. Claiming after an insane cop got an innocent on him which in turn flipped the guilty on the player I replaced into. It worked well and had me not scrutinizing his play (especially since I was in the game where X claimed miller on D1 and another game where iamusername did the same).
Re: M659: partly because Ythill thought he there was a decent chance user was a ballsy Cop claiming Miller, and, iirc, they feared his ability/suspicions.
That would be a ballsy cop, to claim Miller in Normal given that no one else would normally be investigating. Or maybe a GF claiming Miller with the plan to later claim cop if there were some reason to think there wasn't one...
gorckat wrote:Re: M659: partly because Ythill thought he there was a decent chance user was a ballsy Cop claiming Miller, and, iirc, they feared his ability/suspicions.
That would be a ballsy cop, to claim Miller in Normal given that no one else would normally be investigating. Or maybe a GF claiming Miller with the plan to later claim cop if there were some reason to think there wasn't one...
Well, yes. Because if he ever claimed cop, he'd be LALed. I suppose if you've got enough investigations under your belt, it can be worth getting lynched. Regardless, that a claimed miller might be a cop is soooo far down the list of possibilities...
bionicchop2 wrote:He didn't claim right away, but breadcrumbed it early and claimed it later. Claiming after an insane cop got an innocent on him which in turn flipped the guilty on the player I replaced into. It worked well and had me not scrutinizing his play (especially since I was in the game where X claimed miller on D1 and another game where iamusername did the same).
Breadcrumbing it early and claiming it later is a completely different animal than claiming it outright day 1. I'd almost certainly push to lynch someone who breadcrumbed miller and only claimed it after (or to preemptively defend against) a cop guilty.
Reasoning is this: A town miller wants to claim it early so that the cop doesn't waste an investigation on them. Scum doesn't want to claim miller day 1, because they paint an early target on their chest for getting vigged/lynched, etc. If someone has a breadcrumbed miller claim to whip out after a cop guilty, I wouldn't hesitate to lynch that guy.
bionicchop2 wrote:He didn't claim right away, but breadcrumbed it early and claimed it later. Claiming after an insane cop got an innocent on him which in turn flipped the guilty on the player I replaced into. It worked well and had me not scrutinizing his play (especially since I was in the game where X claimed miller on D1 and another game where iamusername did the same).
Breadcrumbing it early and claiming it later is a completely different animal than claiming it outright day 1. I'd almost certainly push to lynch someone who breadcrumbed miller and only claimed it after (or to preemptively defend against) a cop guilty.
Reasoning is this: A town miller wants to claim it early so that the cop doesn't waste an investigation on them. Scum doesn't want to claim miller day 1, because they paint an early target on their chest for getting vigged/lynched, etc. If someone has a breadcrumbed miller claim to whip out after a cop guilty, I wouldn't hesitate to lynch that guy.
(shrug) The one time I was a miller, I didn't claim miller, although I breadcrumbed it heavily, on the theory that if I claimed miller town would probably waste a lynch on me, whereas if I didn't, scum might kill me and/or cop might not investigate me; basically, the goal of my play that game was to try and play in such a way so that the cop wouldn't investigate me.
I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie
bionicchop2 wrote:He didn't claim right away, but breadcrumbed it early and claimed it later. Claiming after an insane cop got an innocent on him which in turn flipped the guilty on the player I replaced into. It worked well and had me not scrutinizing his play (especially since I was in the game where X claimed miller on D1 and another game where iamusername did the same).
Breadcrumbing it early and claiming it later is a completely different animal than claiming it outright day 1. I'd almost certainly push to lynch someone who breadcrumbed miller and only claimed it after (or to preemptively defend against) a cop guilty.
Reasoning is this: A town miller wants to claim it early so that the cop doesn't waste an investigation on them. Scum doesn't want to claim miller day 1, because they paint an early target on their chest for getting vigged/lynched, etc. If someone has a breadcrumbed miller claim to whip out after a cop guilty, I wouldn't hesitate to lynch that guy.
you should have told him that a little earlier
Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.
On a more serious note, I do think it's generally more likely that a day 1 miller claim is done by a legitimate miller than adventurous scum, though. Regardless, I think the player should be evaluated on their own play merits, and not be lynched/let off the hook simply for claiming miller.
This is basically my thoughts. The miller claim is a null tell. I dislike relying on the cop anyway, so it's fine. If they play scummily, lynch them. If not, don't.
I'd make a contrary point to Flay's- have you ever seen an antitown group NK a claimed miller?
Yes, but I can't talk about it yet
"Never have I seen anybody glorify their own lynch."
-StrangerCoug
TTGL Mafia is over. Going to mod [b]Umineko No [color=red]Na[/color]ku Koro Ni[/b] Mafia. Pre-/ins, as always, are accepted.
My policy is to lynch or vig all millers pronto. I always suspect that they are fakeclaiming scum, and I've rarely been wrong.
Claim miller at your own risk, if I'm in the game.
Paraphrasing a role PM takes seconds, fabricating a good fakeclaim takes an eternity.
"Metadiving DGB is like playing Roblox" - T3
"She's sort of like a quantum computer, her reads exist in multiple states at once. u have to take into account the other dimensions." - Morning Tweet
On a more serious note, I do think it's generally more likely that a day 1 miller claim is done by a legitimate miller than adventurous scum, though. Regardless, I think the player should be evaluated on their own play merits, and not be lynched/let off the hook simply for claiming miller.
This is basically my thoughts. The miller claim is a null tell. I dislike relying on the cop anyway, so it's fine. If they play scummily, lynch them. If not, don't.
Except that it's inherently scummy, in the 'has more benefit for scum than town if you don't get lynched for it,' kinda way.
Use a gunsmith instead of a cop. Same effect as a miller, and no one gets lied to. If necessary you can add a "gun collector" who has no powers and owns a gun.
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"Xyl was completely berserk" -dramonic
"Xyl's ruthless policy lynching won the game." -Vi
I see no reason why they should be used. They get caught for something only Mafia should. Need I say more?
In terms of game dynamics, it's a good idea design-wise if people get caught for things they
did
rather than just the role they have. That is, if people are caught for acting like Mafia rather than just being Mafia.
Concrete information is a bad thing in a setup. Interpretable information (eg trackers) or risk/reward information (eg gunsmith) is better. Night results shouldn't allow someone to say "X is scum", just to force X to come up with an explanation (and there should always be room for a plausible explanation).
Miller is an incredibly one-dimensional way of implementing this principle, but it's better than nothing.
[i]The hungry maw of Twilight snaps, but shall not have its fill,
Until one man hangs by his neck, by half this curs'd town's will[/i]
If I am just a normal miller I'll play super townie as I usually naturally am as ether alignment cause of my useful nature. Shouldn't be hard to get myself killed unless I am surrounded by a bunch of players i percieve to just be better than me. Basically only if I feel i would naturally be late in the mafia kill line based on the starting player list, would I ever consider claiming as normal miller.
If I am a Death Miller I will probably claim early pending how likly I believe I'll die or be investigated. I'd hate to make town think I was scum with my reveal when I wasn't scum. They could draw bad connections lynching other townies, so I'd would likly claim early and or make sure I found scum while being distanced from people I percieved were obv good townies. I don't want to bring anyone down with me or injury the town while I scum hunt. If i believe I can survive and not get killed or wrongly draw attention to other players, I don't claim otherwise I imediatly do claim.
If I am a PGO i act my super town self to get scum to go down with me without claiming. Only way I'd claim would be if there was a claimed role that said they were going to target me next. I might do that as a miller too if I was being investigated though I think that'd get me lynched so I'd probably do my best to catch scum right then and then see if I can clear myself or whatever in order to not get them to target me first before claiming
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Now I test lottery and gambling software as my job. It's funny how my life has turned out. Somewhere a Time Traveler is laughing madly
On a more serious note, I do think it's generally more likely that a day 1 miller claim is done by a legitimate miller than adventurous scum, though. Regardless, I think the player should be evaluated on their own play merits, and not be lynched/let off the hook simply for claiming miller.
This is basically my thoughts. The miller claim is a null tell. I dislike relying on the cop anyway, so it's fine. If they play scummily, lynch them. If not, don't.
Except that it's inherently scummy, in the 'has more benefit for scum than town if you don't get lynched for it,' kinda way.
But the thing is, are you less likely to get lynched for it? If it's treated as a null tell, no. Therefore, much of the benefit is gone there. So they are investigation immune? There are enough cop screwing things out there that anyone with a brain shouldn't be following a cop blindly ANYWAY.
"Never have I seen anybody glorify their own lynch."
-StrangerCoug
TTGL Mafia is over. Going to mod [b]Umineko No [color=red]Na[/color]ku Koro Ni[/b] Mafia. Pre-/ins, as always, are accepted.
Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.
"Never have I seen anybody glorify their own lynch."
