Newbie 528 - Game Over!

[Xpom Telo]

Vote : Nemesis

.

He's done no scumhunting whatsoever; instead, he's just been engaging the conversation about either irrelevant topics or stuff that critiques other people's logic. He's had no contributions or attempts to find scum, which, if I've been reading correctly, means that he's not doing his job.

He has no suspicions, unless I've missed a post of his.

Official Vote Count

LutenitPowwel - 2 (Zyrconium, Muerrto)

Nemesis - 1 (Xpom Telo)

Not Voting - 4 (Alan Redgown, JimmyJammas, LutenitPowwel, Nemesis)

4 to Lynch

[Alan Redgown]

Vote : Nemesis

.

He's done no scumhunting whatsoever; instead, he's just been engaging the conversation about either irrelevant topics or stuff that critiques other people's logic. He's had no contributions or attempts to find scum, which, if I've been reading correctly, means that he's not doing his job.

He has no suspicions, unless I've missed a post of his.

To be blunt, you haven't exactly contributed to the anti-scum effort that much yourself. I know you said you have no weekend Internet access, but even your recent posts haven't been overly rich and meaningful. In fact, I think your only real contribution to discussion was this post. Also, you're voting for Nemesis, while most of us are already planning on Lutenit being scum. Now, it's not up to me to control other people's votes, but I find this unusually scummy. I made some suggestions that Nemesis might be Lutenit's scumbuddy, and now you're voting for Nemesis before Lutenit? It seems kind of like you're going for an easy target, someone who's already been suspected by other people. Of course, if that was what you were doing, I suppose you might go after me instead.

To justify my point that "most of us are already planning on Lutenit being scum", here's the current status of the bandwagon on Nemesis.
Me: FoS'ing Lutenit
JJ: FoS'ing Lutenit
Muerrto: Voting for Lutenit
Nemesis: FoS'ing Lutenit
Xpom Telo: Hasn't voiced any suspicion of Lutenit
Zyrconium: Voting for Lutenit

Would it be too easy for Lutenit and Xpom Telo to both be scum? I'm not sure, but right now it looks like a possibility.

[LutenitPowwel]

Since my death seems imenent, by lynch or by mafia, I may as well vote now

Vote: Alan

For making me look bad (not implying that I'm mafia).

And last I ask this question:

Would I really be that stupid?
If I was mafia I would be much more careful than that.

Anyways, good luck on finding scum

[Alan Redgown]

Since my death seems

eminent

, by lynch or by mafia, I may as well vote now

Vote: Alan

For making me look bad (not implying that I'm mafia).

And last I ask this question:

Would I really be that stupid?
If I was mafia I would be much more careful than that.

Anyways, good luck on finding scum

Wait, so how did

I

make you look bad? You're the one who voted the same way I voted and FoS'd the same way I FoS'd. I don't know how that's my fault. Also, "by lynch or by mafia". Well, if you're pro-town and you don't die by lynch today, I highly doubt the mafia will go after you. After all, there's a good chance you'd get lynched Day Two.

If we do end up lynching Lutenit, he should claim first.

[Zyrconium]

Since my death seems imenent, by lynch or by mafia, I may as well vote now

By mafia? There is absolutely no reason for the mafia to kill you, if you are a townie you have helped them tremendously and if you do make it to Day 2(which seems very unlikely) will continue to help them.

Vote: Alan

For making me look bad (not implying that I'm mafia).

This is still a really dumb reason to vote.

Would I really be that stupid?
If I was mafia I would be much more careful than that.

As a pro-town player you should be more careful than that, too. Playing like this will get you lynched, and cost the town a lynch.

[Zyrconium]

If we do end up lynching Lutenit, he should claim first.

Why? I'm not saying it's a bad idea, but what will we gain from it?

[Alan Redgown]

If we do end up lynching Lutenit, he should claim first.

Why? I'm not saying it's a bad idea, but what will we gain from it?

I don't know. An IC in my first game told me that when someone's going to die, that person should claim first, so that the town can avoid killing power roles. I don't know if we'll gain anything from it in this situation, but I wouldn't mind a claim. It wouldn't hurt, right? *shrugs*

[Nemesis]

Happy birthday JimmyJammas.

He's done no scumhunting whatsoever; instead, he's just been engaging the conversation about either irrelevant topics or stuff that critiques other people's logic. He's had no contributions or attempts to find scum, which, if I've been reading correctly, means that he's not doing his job.

He has no suspicions, unless I've missed a post of his.

I've given my opinion on stuff, generally done more than you have done, I don't think I've done less scumhunting than everyone else. If you count jumping on a bandwagon and demanding the lynch for someone then I guess I have. But I don't count that as scumhunting.

It is my opinion that forcing scum to reveal themselves on page 3 is a little hard. I generally wait for someone to do something scummy.

He has no suspicions

Apart from Lutenit. Alan might look bad depending on his lynch. I don't have anything solid enough to make me vote for someone other than Lutenit, but I'm cautious with votes anyway.

I have a couple of "there's something wrong here but I can put my finger on it"s but those are pointless. No one can defend themselves from feelings so I generally don' share any opinions of mine that cannot be debated properly.

I havn't made a list of suspects yet, but that's because some people have less than 10 posts. So I'm working with virtually nothing. It takes a very obvious* thing to get someone bandwagoned this early.

* Although obvious things don't make everyone scum.

I don't really see why you are voting my due to my lack of contributions to discussion. While not everything I say is meaningful and important, I still think I post more meaningful things than lurkers.

Would it be too easy for Lutenit and Xpom Telo to both be scum?

Well considering almost everyone is being accused of being scum with Lutenit I don't think this one would be too easy. Because about 3 other groupings are too easy.

Since my death seems imenent, by lynch or by mafia,

Why would the scum kill you? If you somehow wern't lynched today, they would surely keep you alive so you'd get lynched tomorrow... Unless of course you claimed Doc... That would be suicide.

Vote: Alan
For making me look bad (not implying that I'm mafia).

What kind of reason is that to vote for someone? Everyone always makes other people look bad, it is basically what accusing people does.

And again with the "(no offense, not implying that I'm mafia, etc.)" those reassuring comments are so scummy.

Would I really be that stupid?
If I was mafia I would be much more careful than that.

WIFOM. Also, if you are a townie and realize you are being scummy then you arn't helping either.

The "if I were scum" lines are all WIFOM and thus cannot be used as the core of a defence.

Why? I'm not saying it's a bad idea, but what will we gain from it?

If he claims Doc then it gives everyone an interesting choice. Scum would NK him or NK someone else to make it look like he is scum. Or he is scum claiming doc and makes it through to tomorrow using that arguement.

However, lynching a claimed doc is giving us no chance of Cop comes out, doc protects cop, etc. When the Mafia roleblocker is killed. IMO I still think claiming doc shouldn't save him. With only 1 mislynch allowed it would be a risky thing to not lynch someone because of, purely because there is no margain for WIFOM tomorrow.

If he claims Cop: I'll be inclined to disbelieve him. But we could leave him alive for one night, doc might be able to save someone (wouldn't have to neccesarily protect him) and we could get an investigation result from him and after lynching him (if we are not at lynch or lose due to a good day 1 or day 2 lynch or a super doc or something) then we have an investigation result to look at, as well as the cop's alignment.


If he claims townie, he dies. If he's honest or not it's WIFOM and we don't lose anything important if he is town.


For what it's worth, claiming is usually a good idea. But he is so suspicious and we have so little room for error that I'm not sure how much it would help.

[JimmyJammas]

Thanks Nemesis =)

...But now I have to bust you.

I don't think I've done less scumhunting than everyone else. If you count jumping on a bandwagon and demanding the lynch for someone then I guess I have. But I don't count that as scumhunting.

I was going to ask you to clarify here, but as I was writing this, I think I understood what you were trying to say. The second sentence here refers to Xpom and not yourself, right? Please correct me if I'm wrong. Note also that 2nd least amount
.....
I would comment on Lutenit's post #77, but Alan and Nemesis have done a good job shooting it down, and I don't have much to add. Giving up on page 4 Lutenit? Your lynch is hardly imminent, you only have two votes on you. Your job is to convince the rest of the people who are suspicious of you that you are not scum. You're doing a very bad job at that. If you're not scum, you are one hell of a gift to them.
.....
Xpom, I like that you looked at the quality of Nemesis' posts instead of the quantity. I took offense to you implying that "stuff that critiques other people's logic" is useless though. Critiquing other people's logic is one of the few weapons townies have in this game. You have to question and critique everything everyone says because you know for a fact that two of the other people are trying to deceive you.

In other news, you've guarded yourself the same way Alan and Lutenit did earlier with "if I've been reading correctly" and "unless I've missed a post of his". It's like saying "this is my case, but if its wrong then don't hold me accountable". Just let your opinions fly, no need to guard them. Guarding like this makes you look scummy.
.....
Muerrto, just a reminder that when you come back I'm still looking for some clarification from you (see my post #72).

[JimmyJammas]

lol, not sure how that happened.
At the end of the paragraph to Nemesis I meant to add:

Note also that the 2nd least amount of scumhunting isn't admirable either. Just because you've done more than Xpom (who has done very little) doesn't mean anything to me.

[Muerrto]

Muerrto, just a reminder that when you come back I'm still looking for some clarification from you (see my post #72).

Yeah, I actually typed that up yesterday and then lost my net. To clarify, I SHOULD have net access at home but I rarely do. So most of the time on tuesday and wednesday I can't post. But thanks for remembering that with the 'when you get back'. I get accused of lurking alot for my poor internet.

Muerrto, I am not understanding what you meant by

Unless you believe I just actually meant that.

and

Then again, I am quite crafty(to play devil's advocate so I don't confirm myself) and have yet to be caught as scum so *shrug*

...Can you clarify those two things for me?

Easily. Basically by messing up and saying mafia couldn't communicate I pretty much confirmed myself town if you belive it was sincere.

Since that screws up the game massively the second sentence is to remind that I may not be sincere because I have actually yet to be caught ever as scum. I greatly enjoy being scum.

The point is I'm an IC. My job here is to teach. So while my screw up about mafia communication is a pretty town confirming event I don't want people to read that and take it a face value because it could always be a clever ploy. It's also my attempt to save me from messing up the game.

As for Lutenit? That last post was ridiculous and IMO possibly distancing. Not bad distancing though. If he's scum I want to know what Alan's got to say tomorrow.

As for Xpom calling the kettle black and saying Nemesis isn't scum hunting? At least he's posting. That's all I have to say about that. Nemesis has been taking the opposite role of an IC that I take but he's doing it textbook. He's sitting back and letting you guys play, watching what you decide and seeing how you come to your conclusions.

I go the other way and step in and actually try to shape your decisions in the correct direction but both are valid. Xpom saying Nemesis isn't scum hunting is not only ludicrous but hypocritical. Voting him for it is scummy, period.

Also, everything said about Lutenit's post so far is right on. Saying you're gonna die w/2 votes is an appeal to emotion. Saying Alan is making you look bad is a bald faced lie. Claiming the mafia will kill you is close to a role claim and we don't need that if you're a power role at only 2 votes on page 4. This whole post was simply an appeal to emotion and means nothing.

And yes, I'd say we're ready for a claim from Lutenit. Although if you ARE a power role I'd really like for you to at least try and defend yourself before the end. You've yet to even attempt it.

[Alan Redgown]

In other news, you've [Xpom Telo] guarded yourself the same way Alan and Lutenit did earlier with "if I've been reading correctly" and "unless I've missed a post of his".

Um, I don't recall guarding myself in that manner once. Could you please quote the post in which I did so?

I don't think I've done less scumhunting than everyone else. If you count jumping on a bandwagon and demanding the lynch for someone then I guess I have. But I don't count that as scumhunting.

I was going to ask you to clarify here, but as I was writing this, I think I understood what you were trying to say. The second sentence here refers to Xpom and not yourself, right?

I think what he meant was this:

I don't think I've done less scumhunting than everyone else. If you count jumping on a bandwagon and demanding the lynch for someone then I guess I have

done less scumhunting than everyone else

. But I don't count

jumping on a bandwagon and demanding the lynch for someone

as scumhunting.

Also, yes, happy birthday!

[Alan Redgown]

Oh, there's one more thing I wanted to comment on.

I took offense to you implying that "stuff that critiques other people's logic" is useless though. Critiquing other people's logic is one of the few weapons townies have in this game. You have to question and critique everything everyone says because you know for a fact that two of the other people are trying to deceive you.

This is in reference to:

He's done no scumhunting whatsoever; instead, he's just been engaging the conversation about either irrelevant topics or stuff that critiques other people's logic. He's had no contributions or attempts to find scum, which, if I've been reading correctly, means that he's not doing his job.

He has no suspicions, unless I've missed a post of his.

I don't necessarily think Xpom was implying that critiquing other people's logic is useless. It seems like he was saying that

only

critiquing others' logic while adding nothing new is a bad thing. This is just what I think he was saying; I don't agree that Nemesis hasn't contributed anything important to discussion.

And...

Nemesis has been taking the opposite role of an IC that I take but he's doing it textbook. He's sitting back and letting you guys play, watching what you decide and seeing how you come to your conclusions.

Well, I completely understand what you're saying, but even IC's have to play the game to some extent. IC's can still have special roles, and can still be scum. I think it's more the moderator's job to sit back and watch us play (not that the moderator doesn't have an essential role in making the game run smoothly).

[JimmyJammas]

Um, I don't recall guarding myself in that manner once. Could you please quote the post in which I did so?

Certainly: I was referring to your post #55 about Nemesis and the quick "ignore it" post #60 afterwards. It has the same "guarding" feel to it. I explain in more detail in post #62.
.....
Regarding Nemesis... I first read it the same exact way you've written it

I don't think I've done less scumhunting than everyone else. If you count jumping on a bandwagon and demanding the lynch for someone then I guess I have done less scumhunting than everyone else. But I don't count jumping on a bandwagon and demanding the lynch for someone as scumhunting.

, but that doesn't make any sense. That's why I started posting, to ask him to clarify.

Here's why it doesn't make sense. If we read it like that, Nemesis has said:
1. I haven't done less scumhunting than everyone else.
2. But if you count two things I've done as scumhunting, then I have done less scumhunting than everyone else.

That can't possibly be the case. If you've done 1 piece of scumhunting, and that isn't less than everyone else, then how could 3 pieces of scumhunting ("if we count two things...") be less than everyone else?

So then I said, "oh, he must have been talking about Xpom. If you count two things that Xpom has done as scumhunting, then Nemesis

has

done the least amount, because Xpom has done more." But now that I think about it, that's not right either because Xpom never did those things. He never jumped on a bandwagon, and he never demanded somebody's lynch. In fact, has anybody demanded somebody's lynch yet?

I'm confused, lol. I'll go back to my original plan and just ask Nemesis to clarify, please.

[LutenitPowwel]

See, what would be nice is that if I do get lynched than people would not blame

me

if I was a townie. Seems like that going to happen.

[JimmyJammas]

I don't necessarily think Xpom was implying that critiquing other people's logic is useless. It seems like he was saying that

only

critiquing others' logic while adding nothing new is a bad thing.

You're right, he did not imply that it was useless. But he did imply that it wasn't scumhunting. My response was to show that I disagree, I think it's a very important tool to catch scum.

[Alan Redgown]

Um, I don't recall guarding myself in that manner once. Could you please quote the post in which I did so?

Certainly: I was referring to your post #55 about Nemesis and the quick "ignore it" post #60 afterwards. It has the same "guarding" feel to it. I explain in more detail in post #62.

Oh, I hadn't really thought of that as guarding. You're right, though.

[LutenitPowwel]

HAPPY BIRTHDAY JJ!

[Alan Redgown]

See, what would be nice is that if I do get lynched than people would not blame

me

if I was a townie. Seems like that going to happen.

Well, you're a newbie, so if you are a townie, I don't think people will blame you completely for not fending off accusations effectively enough. And if you're scum, we'll thank you.

[JimmyJammas]

See, what would be nice is that if I do get lynched than people would not blame

me

if I was a townie. Seems like that going to happen.

lol, who should we blame? The mod? Alan?

You were first looked at because you said the exact same things as the person above you (who happened to be Alan both times). When we asked you to explain why, you said "we have the same opinions".

I can't speak for everyone else, but that certainly didn't put my suspicions to rest. If you get lynched and flip town, there's no one to blame but yourself. You have plenty of time to defend yourself, but I'm gonna need something better than "we have the same opinions".

[LutenitPowwel]

You were first looked at because you said the exact same things as the person above you (who happened to be Alan both times). When we asked you to explain why, you said "we have the same opinions" You have plenty of time to defend yourself, but I'm gonna need something better than "we have the same opinions".

Well, JJ, If it's something more than "we have the same opinions" you want, its more than "we have the same opinions" you'll get.

I did get some of my ideas from Alan, and I did sort of write them in a post and I did sort of post them. That doesn't really mean i'm scum. It means I got some of my ideas from Alan, and sort of wrote them in a post and sort of posted them. That's called either copying for people who attack me, or inspiration for people who are not so attacking me. Getting ideas is not scummy.

Now if thats not enough for you then goddamn lynch me allready because this is getting really boring.

@Alan What do you want me to claim?

Plz tell.

[JimmyJammas]

So what you're saying is, Alan

inspired

you to have the same opinions?

Jokes aside, come on man. Have fun. I have one vote in this game, just like everybody else. I can't lynch you, it takes a majority to do that. I'm not even voting for you. In fact, I'm trying to help you. But you keep shooting yourself in the foot.

Now, back to the game, you've contradicted yourself. If Alan inspired you, and you got some of your ideas from him (obviously you thought they were good ideas), then why are you voting for him? You can't think he's scum and think he had good ideas at the same time.

Unless, of course, you're both scum.

[Xpom Telo]

Xpom, I like that you looked at the quality of Nemesis' posts instead of the quantity. I took offense to you implying that "stuff that critiques other people's logic" is useless though. Critiquing other people's logic is one of the few weapons townies have in this game. You have to question and critique everything everyone says because you know for a fact that two of the other people are trying to deceive you.

I'm not saying that that's a bad thing at all; what I am saying is that that's all he has done this game, and in doing nothing but that, has made him scummy in my opinion.

To be blunt, you haven't exactly contributed to the anti-scum effort that much yourself. I know you said you have no weekend Internet access, but even your recent posts haven't been overly rich and meaningful. In fact, I think your only real contribution to discussion was this post.

It was, but I don't think that what I said has been hypocritical in the least. I haven't had many opportunities to post recently, so it's much less easier to notice the trends of what I've posted then it has been to notice what Nemesis has been posting, because he's been quite active in the game. They're two totally different scenarios, IMO, because Nemesis is fairly easy to read, in my opinion.

Also, I don't think that there was any sense of a Nemesis bandwagon, so I think your suspicions of me were pretty ridiculous.

I've given my opinion on stuff, generally done more than you have done, I don't think I've done less scumhunting than everyone else. If you count jumping on a bandwagon and demanding the lynch for someone then I guess I have. But I don't count that as scumhunting.

Exactly. You've had more chances to participate and more posts to accumulate throughout this game; I haven't. My attack wasn't for how much scumhunting you've done, necessarily, it's how much scumhunting you've done relative to other participation that you've had in this game.

Sorry, but I will be away from this point until Saturday.

[Muerrto]

I did get some of my ideas from Alan, and I did sort of write them in a post and I did sort of post them. That doesn't really mean i'm scum. It means I got some of my ideas from Alan, and sort of wrote them in a post and sort of posted them. That's called either copying for people who attack me, or inspiration for people who are not so attacking me. Getting ideas is not scummy.

Now if thats not enough for you then goddamn lynch me allready because this is getting really boring.

@Alan What do you want me to claim?

Plz tell.

First off, let's not take a game personal okay. If this is boring for you on page 4 you wanna go ahead and drop mafia now. I've had games go over 30 pages and 3 months. It happens. Now if it's boring because you're refusing to participate which you are then you only have yourself to blame. Telling people to lynch you is another appeal to emotion.

Second, a claim is a role claim. Only you know what to claim because only you know your role. What people are asking for is you tell us what your role is so we can decide whether we believe you. What I said however is NOT to claim yet if you are in fact a power role and actually try and defend yourself which you have yet to do.

And finally, this post was not anywhere near a defense. Step back a sec and look at it from everyone else's angle. We don't know your role. If JJ had voted Nemesis for being an IC as a silly reason on page 1, and then I had voted Nemesis immediately afterwords for being an IC as well, would you not find me suspiscious? Of course you would. Therefore, I find you suspiscious.

Now if when you asked me why I did that I simply said we share the same opinion and then started deflecting suspiscion onto others, would you find that scummy as well? You better, it is.

You dodged the questions multiple times and still haven't given a good explanation for it. The reason IMO is there is no explanation. Other than you are in fact scum. If you were town and accidently did what you did you'd have a reason you could post. If you're scum you have to come up with a reason and you've yet to successfully do that.


@JJ: I assume my response satisfied you since you didn't reply to it.

[Muerrto]

Exactly. You've had more chances to participate and more posts to accumulate throughout this game; I haven't. My attack wasn't for how much scumhunting you've done, necessarily, it's how much scumhunting you've done relative to other participation that you've had in this game.

Ok wait, you're not hypocritical because you've either been lurking or unable to post so haven't done any scum hunting but because he's been able to post and hasn't done ENOUGH scum hunting in your eyes?

Is that about the gist of it?