Pledge of Allegiance (Game Over! Page 76)

[farside22]

Farside, you will probably know what I'm thinking about if you claim "roleblocked" every night.

Well I will be giving the town the finger every day I am role blocked for keeping someone alive that is saying they did something good for the town and was tracked to someone that claimed to be role blocked. In my view they are just being dumb.

[Zorblag]

@Gammagooey, my not liking people leaving of the Phate wagon when they did was my suspicion for the time. It's the sort of thing that will be much more useful to look at as the game goes along in terms of overall voting patterns; at that moment I'd said my bit. The one exception is farside22 who I did specifically like the reactions from which was useful immediately.

As for popsofctown's reaction I don't think that you're remembering it quite right. He didn't start by saying that we should watch out for DrippingGoofball because she did it without asking for a claim. That came 6 minutes later. He originally assumed that it went through and that DrippingGoofball was town and he could even see why she'd done it and then claimed for no good reason. Further he'd give some reads but he didn't have any (there's no talk about looking for them) and that we should probably keep pressuring xvart, a nice popular wagon.

It's a reaction that does nothing at all to help the town and doesn't show any of the surprise that I'd expect if he really believed it was true. I think it was fake. At the very least I'd expect some suspicion about whether it had really happened rather than absolute acceptance.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I'm just baffled that the Fishy lynch has fallen apart like it has. He's been outed as a completely self-interested actor and while he claims to want to help the town there's obviously no evidence to support that other than his word. And Zorblag's idea is completely ridiculous, why would Fishy kill himself if we don't have the stones to lynch him now when he's already been incredibly deceptive, why not go back to day alive with either a chance to earn more mislynches if he's scum or an SK or to earn more points if he is indeed this "non-hostile" other.

Furthermore, if the wagon falls apart I have no idea how it isn't Nicodemus who isn't getting strung up. Ignoring his dreadful play from yesterday he then just blatantly rolefished today to try and completely out a PR whose claim has been verified by the person they claimed against.

[Fishythefish]

If at this point we as a town want to lynch someone other than Fishythefish then I might have an alternate plan for him that would tie up a few things. I'm going to take it that most people believe his claim about both the one shot tracker/transmitter and the points. If I'm right that there aren't a lot of scum in this game then we don't actually want Fishythefish sticking around; I think he's a fair amount more likely to be on town lynches than scum lynches which hurts his faction in terms of points so I suspect that he'll be a bit more likely than town to simply try to stay off lynches as a whole which isn't something we really want.

On the other hand, we've got a claimed PGO. It seems to me that it might be acceptable to those who still want the Fishythefish lynch that we have him target Gammagooey with a track and whoever he thinks is most likely to be town with his transmit. His death should verify Gammagooey's claim (or not) and we'll potentially get tracking information (at least whether or not he targets anyone) on Gammagooey that I imagine trackers would be somewhat reluctant to get on their own. Whoever receives the transmission doesn't even have to worry about sharing it as they're not revealing anything about their role. Fishythefish should find that a much better deal than just getting lynched today so it should be an all around win for town and his claimed non-hostile other faction. It'll also give us a fair amount more useful information to work with.

I gain more points for a scum lynch than I lose for a town lynch. You do not have to worry about me keeping off lynch wagons.

Unsurprisingly, my firm order of preference is
Alive>Visiting a PGO>Being lynched
This is the order that is in the interests of both the town and my faction.

[Fishythefish]

MMMMMMmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm hey fishy you said the track would be sent to someone, did the ability you used last night's result get sent to someone who could confirm that it isn't a roleblock?

No. If there is a way to confirm my action, which I'm not claiming either way, I judge it not worth outing the action to stay alive. You are unlikely to ever have confirmation of who I visited last night, or what I did there.

Listen up people. He didn't say he did anything last night. That is withholding information. That is not town.
He went to Red Coyote and even if that is not his intended target he still did something last night that he is not telling people.
HOW IS THIS TOWN?

In answer to your last question: I AM NOT TOWN. In claiming, my interests are not the same as yours, and I refuse to do what is best for the town. In virtually all other matters, our interests directly align. In this game, not being town is not a sufficient reason to lynch someone. See my recent long post - iso 37.

So what's your opinion on the Targeting matter?

First he claimed he didn't, now it's clear he did.

See iso 37 again. I lied. I've got no intention of ever claiming the action I used last night. It would hurt my partner(s) (and yeah, I decided in iso 37 it was worth admitting they exist) by removing their claim.

Town Cop says Fishy is not-town

Fishy claims other with one shot tracker

That they hadn't used

Tracker says Fishy visited RC

RC admits being RB'd

Fishy admits visiting someone,

Not RC

. Therefore Lied about not using ability.

But Fishy doesn't want to say who they visited, or what ability.

Therefore we cannot trust Fishy.

--

Any objections to that analysis? Thoughts?

I have an objection! The dogma that you cannot trust me because I don't share exactly the same interests as you fails in this game. 90+% of the time, we want the same thing. The last 10-% is when I claim (and some rather unlikely scenarios involving idiocy from other points factions)

I'm just baffled that the Fishy lynch has fallen apart like it has. He's been outed as a completely self-interested actor and while he claims to want to help the town there's obviously no evidence to support that other than his word. And Zorblag's idea is completely ridiculous, why would Fishy kill himself if we don't have the stones to lynch him now when he's already been incredibly deceptive, why not go back to day alive with either a chance to earn more mislynches if he's scum or an SK or to earn more points if he is indeed this "non-hostile" other.

Furthermore, if the wagon falls apart I have no idea how it isn't Nicodemus who isn't getting strung up. Ignoring his dreadful play from yesterday he then just blatantly rolefished today to try and completely out a PR whose claim has been verified by the person they claimed against.

Absolutely I'm a completely self-interested actor. Lucky for the town our interests align virtually all the time. You (presumably) implicitly claim you want to help the town, and there's obviously no evidence to support that other than your word. That is not a point against me unless I have given you reason to think I don't want to hurt the town.

I think I agree with you on Nico. Given the unexpectedly warm reception to my claims, I'll be taking a good look at some players tonight.

[RedCoyote]

I'm pretty sure I did. At any rate, I do now. I did not use any power last night that would lead to you (or anyone) being blocked.

Whatever. An action that you're not willing to disclose that just so happened to turn out to be a roleblock.

---

In fact, if you're Part of the Executive, Legislative, or Judicial branches please claim now. If you're pro-Town-type Other, as Fishy claims he is, you'll be doing the Town overall a favor, even though you might not want to claim. You have another incentive: You don't claim now, well, there's at least one and possibly more investigative PRs who will assume you to be hostile if they get a non-Town, or even an Other result on you, should you not claim immediately.

Oh, yeah, there's a threat. "Claim now or if we happen to investigate you may get lynched!"

Like how farside investigated Fishy?

I want to know how many of these players who are unvoting Fishy and talking down his lynch happen to be part of these third party groups trying to circle the wagons.

---

Town Cop says Fishy is not-town

Fishy claims other with one shot tracker

That they hadn't used

Tracker says Fishy visited RC

RC admits being RB'd

Fishy admits visiting someone, Not RC. Therefore Lied about not using ability.

But Fishy doesn't want to say who they visited, or what ability.

Therefore we cannot trust Fishy.

This is the analysis I get too, Chrono. My impression is that the mindset behind ignoring Fishy is that the town can use these players in some way, although everyone has been vauge about how that's going to work, and that we shouldn't focus our attention on third parties. To that I say, no one here is saying that we need to focus on any Judicial/Executive/Legislative roles, but, rather, focus on those players who are just not town period. Especially if they are running around using random actions on everyone.

---

Red Coyote: Did you receive or get anything else beside being told you were Role Blocked?

I was told that I didn't get any result for my investigation.

---

I paraphrased because I assumed my wincon boiled down to what the townie wincon always is, but technically if you nitpick the wording, if the last three living players were a lyncher who had already killed his target and two vanilla townies some townies would be declared winners and the dead lyncher target would be considered a loser. This kind of turns the town into a coalition of Survivors and is bad design and I'm hoping the wincon phrasing was just an oversight.

pops, I'm just giving you a yes or no question here. I was under the impression you were more or less suckered into claiming VT by DGB. Is this true or not? If it's true, why not just post your VT win con as it shows on the rules post of the game, and if it isn't, then why do I think you are a VT?

---

Well I will be giving the town the finger every day I am role blocked for keeping someone alive that is saying they did something good for the town and was tracked to someone that claimed to be role blocked. In my view they are just being dumb.

Maybe I'm just being unsophisticated, but I agree with farside here. I don't really get how the town expects to win if there are a lot of "non-hostile" entities with some supposedly nondescript action that may or may not wittingly be roleblocking town PRs. I mean, what is there to take advantage of here? I don't think those advocating a lynch on Fishy are asking the town to ignore scum or "hostile" third parties, but you do lynch whomever is running contrary to the town's best interests.

---

Furthermore, if the wagon falls apart I have no idea how it isn't Nicodemus who isn't getting strung up. Ignoring his dreadful play from yesterday he then just blatantly rolefished today to try and completely out a PR whose claim has been verified by the person they claimed against.

I can support this. I can support a lot of lynches, actually, over Zorblag at the moment. I like his contributions and I really don't get where this idea that DGB can simply say, "I know he's not town because I know all about him", and that's what flies.

[Jack]

Here's the thing about these "pick your..." games. People do funny things that you wouldn't predict. For kicks I ran a 7 player pick your power, and a 7 player pick your side on another site. In the pyp, 4 townies went for the same power, and in the pys, 3 went for other and none for scum.

So if you are zoraster, and a TON of people pick other, what would you do? You simply can't make them all SK's. The original pm said we would either be "town, mafia, or other". The actual setup is "town, mafia, other:hostile, other:non-hostile, unknown". This says to me that a bunch of people picked other. Probably there is some reason for it. Perhaps fishy can tell us why he picked other. Perhaps the thought of being on a scum team with unknown partners, going up against possibly multiple scum groups was off putting. Or maybe everyone who likes town picked town, and everyone who likes mafia knew that people know they like mafia, and didn't want to pick it.

Fact is, xvart's flip and the details from Fishy's claim make it likely that there is some side game going on with the non-hostile's. I've played in games with side quests for other factions. I think the best play is to go for out and out mafia.

The PGO is a decent solution, although realistically Fishy will only do it if he thinks he will be lynched the next day for not doing it. I think though, that even I would be fully behind a fishy lynch if we had told him to do it and he didn't.

[Jack]

Note that xvart is specifically "Speaker of the house

part of

the legislature". Indicating that he is part of a faction.

I would almost guarantee that mafia are either trying to ride this "lynch non-hostiles" horse as far as they can, or lurking like d3x to see how it turns out.

[popsofctown]

pops, I'm just giving you a yes or no question here. I was under the impression you were more or less suckered into claiming VT by DGB. Is this true or not? If it's true, why not just post your VT win con as it shows on the rules post of the game, and if it isn't, then why do I think you are a VT?

Well excuse me for forgoing the literal yes/no interpretation of the question "Are you a VT like you claimed two pages ago?" and assuming you wouldn't ask a redundant question, Red.

When asked the question I answered with the gist of my wincon. I didn't bother with going to the rules post or opening my role pm which is hidden in a sea of pms because I'm very popular. I only now realize that there may be any distinction between the answer I gave and the wincon in my role pm.


Of course, what's rather fascinating is that you said "hey, don't you have the wincon posted here in the first post" and not, "hey, that's not the wincon in my role pm".
---

Well I will be giving the town the finger every day I am role blocked for keeping someone alive that is saying they did something good for the town and was tracked to someone that claimed to be role blocked. In my view they are just being dumb.

Maybe I'm just being unsophisticated, but I agree with farside here. I don't really get how the town expects to win if there are a lot of "non-hostile" entities with some supposedly nondescript action that may or may not wittingly be roleblocking town PRs. I mean, what is there to take advantage of here? I don't think those advocating a lynch on Fishy are asking the town to ignore scum or "hostile" third parties, but you do lynch whomever is running contrary to the town's best interests.

Look, if zoraster PMed me and said "tonight, you can vig someone, but only if it's fishy, wannadoit?" I would absolutely vig fishy. But stray roleblocks hitting town PRs (and scum PRs and designated killers too) is not nearly as worthy of the lynch as players whom must die before we win the game, who kill us every night, who very well may also have roleblocks. I mean, it's like you have a six shot revolver and you're being attacked by four raccoons and five bears. The bears are more dangerous by orders of magnitude, and you need to shoot them first. And if you shoot one raccoon first, what if you miss the bears with your other five shots? You're hosed.

[Fishythefish]

@RC: if all I wanted was not to be caught roleblocking, I could have claimed any number of roles. The fact that I haven't claimed a specific role is a silly reason to think I'm lying about that.

Focusing on players who aren't town sounds very noble. Unfortunately, it's a sure route to defeat if you don't discriminate between those who have been put in this game do balance it back in the town's favour and the others.

I'm no danger to this town, except in very unlikely scenarios. Lynching me seems kind of clean - get rid of anything that isn't town - but there are probably 4 more like me out there. You do not have 5 lynches to throw away on these people, some of whom are for all practical purposes (other than claiming) protown.

Perhaps fishy can tell us why he picked other.

Sure. I've never been other, and wanted to see what it was like. The answer is "stressful if you get investigated by two PRs".

[RedCoyote]

The PGO is a decent solution, although realistically Fishy will only do it if he thinks he will be lynched the next day for not doing it. I think though, that even I would be fully behind a fishy lynch if we had told him to do it and he didn't.

Oh, wait, so the plan is to force Fishy to visit the PGO then? I must've missed where this was proposed. This is perfect, and I feel like I just spent half and hour making a post for nothing.

##Unvote

##Vote: Jack

---

When asked the question I answered with the gist of my wincon. I didn't bother with going to the rules post or opening my role pm which is hidden in a sea of pms because I'm very popular. I only now realize that there may be any distinction between the answer I gave and the wincon in my role pm.

Of course, what's rather fascinating is that you said "hey, don't you have the wincon posted here in the first post" and not, "hey, that's not the wincon in my role pm".

Okay, okay. You're popular; I can definitely buy that.

Actually, because it deviated from my role PM is the only reason why it caught me a bit off guard. I actually went back and checked on it at both places (PM + Mod's opening post) to make sure mine wasn't any different from the VT. Anyways, consider it dropped.

[Fishythefish]

Right. This is bad.

I have just realised there may be good reasons why I can't or shouldn't visit the PGO tonight. I need to commune with the mod and my partner(s) on this - it might be absolutely fine, depending on some stuff. But it's possible I'd rather be lynched than visit him; and it's even possible I'd rather be lynched than tell you why that is.

Expect more asap.

[Fishythefish]

Further to this, on reflection it's likely that if I can't visit the PGO, I can explain why that is.

[d3x]

##UnVote

I completely follow farside's line of thinking, but I gotta say I believe Fishy's Claim. It reads right and if the theory that there are a lot of Others out there {leaving fewer more powerful Scum and Town}, I'm not surrised we have a Bus Driver. Given it's selfserving what with the building Wagon, but it would appear Fishy loses out on the chance of gaining points by Claiming. That lends it credibility, imo.

Llama749- The Gambler's Fallacy again? While I agree with most of your reads there, why is charter obvTown?

Ellibereth776- Why is the xvart Wagon more likely to have Scum/Others than the Fishy Wagon?

@Jack776, 779, 790- What's with the sudden bout of Vote jumping? Also, why wait this long to put together a case on me? You've apparently found me scummy for a while, what makes now special? You have no new 'evidence' in your case. Is it because Llama started with a Vote on me? Also, how is the QT thing on you an easy mislynch? I asked you to give more details on an apparent lie that you threw out. You never followed up on it with anyting and continued dodging questions about it. And how is my 'player vs player' experiment not 'real analysis'? I offered to go into more detail for anyone who asked. No one asked. Thus my breakdown of Voting you was ultimately unquestioned.

@Jack806- Going ~24hrs without posting is Lurking now? Tell you what, I'm not going to post within every 24 hours, so don't bother asking. I've got work, family, and drinking to take up my time.

In other news... I'm holding my Vote for the moment, but it'll probably end up on Jack.

[StrangerCoug]

It was pretty obvious they weren't attacking each other in the sense they thought each other to be scum.

If that is true, then I missed this.

[Jack]

@Jack776, 779, 790- What's with the sudden bout of Vote jumping?

Do you think this discredits any argument I make against you?

Also, why wait this long to put together a case on me? You've apparently found me scummy for a while, what makes now special?

Do you think this discredits any argument I make against you?

You have no new 'evidence' in your case. Is it because Llama started with a Vote on me?

Do you think this discredits any argument I make against you?

Also, how is the QT thing on you an easy mislynch? I asked you to give more details on an apparent lie that you threw out. You never followed up on it with anyting and continued dodging questions about it.

Yeah, "apparent lies" are easier to question that actually trying to scumhunt.

And how is my 'player vs player' experiment not 'real analysis'? I offered to go into more detail for anyone who asked. No one asked. Thus my breakdown of Voting you was ultimately unquestioned.

Yes. That was exactly my point. You were unwilling to do the work, so you posted a bare bones deal, but you realized that it might look bad so you offered to go into more detail if anyone asked. If anyone had asked you could write something about that bit.

@Jack806- Going ~24hrs without posting is Lurking now? Tell you what, I'm not going to post within every 24 hours, so don't bother asking. I've got work, family, and drinking to take up my time.

You've said zip all day.

[farside22]

Is everyone missing the fact that Fishy admits to having partners? Do you really think he is going to go visit a PGO?
You people are smoking crack.
He did something last night. Doesn't want to say what it is and to me it's not obviously pro-town.
He is not part of the town.

*mutters pissy comments to the town people*

[zoraster]

Day 2 Vote Count

charter ( 0 )
Chronopie ( 0 )
d3x ( 0 )
Debonair Danny DiPietro ( 0 )
DrippingGoofball ( 0 )
Ellibereth ( 0 )
farside22 ( 0 )
fishythefish ( 5 ) farside22 charter Debonair Danny DiPietro Zorblag Chronopie
Gammagooey ( 0 )
imaginality ( 0 )
Jack ( 0 ) RedCoyote
StrangerCoug ( 0 )
LLamaFluff ( 0 )
Nicodemus ( 1 ) UncertainKitten
phate ( 0 )
popsofctown ( 1 )
RedCoyote ( 1 ) Nicodemus
Shotty to the Body ( 0 )
UncertainKitten ( 0 )
Plum ( 0 )
Zorblag ( 5 ) Plum LLamaFluff DrippingGoofball Ellibereth Gammagooey
Not Voting ( 8 ) fishythefish phate Shotty to the Body imaginality popsofctown StrangerCoug Jack d3x
Total Votes ( 21 )

Deadline: May 24th at 11:00 EDT
With 21 able to vote, 11 needed to lynch.

I am looking for a phate replacement.

[Fishythefish]

Is everyone missing the fact that Fishy admits to having partners? Do you really think he is going to go visit a PGO?
You people are smoking crack.
He did something last night. Doesn't want to say what it is and to me it's not obviously pro-town.
He is not part of the town.

*mutters pissy comments to the town people*

Why would saying what I did make any difference? Would you really care which of the huge number of roles out there I claimed, or who I visited?

The fact that I'm part of the town cannot in this game be a reason to autolynch me.

What's the relevance of me having partners?

Anyway, time to make things worse: I

will not

visit the PGO tonight. The reason is that, as I claimed originally, the transmitting track is of great points value to my faction. It needs to go to a townie, and that could easily be the difference between me winning and losing the game. Tonight, we have two nearly confirmed townies - from the two reports on me. That makes our chances of transmitting to a townie who lives through the night higher than they are likely to be again. If I agree to visit the PGO, I'm a scum roleblocker magnet. Not only will this get me lynched tomorrow, it will also make it significantly less likely that my faction transmits successfully to a townie. I'd much rather get lynched today and get those points than get lynched tomorrow and not.

[UncertainKitten]

Note that xvart is specifically "Speaker of the house

part of

the legislature". Indicating that he is part of a faction.

I would almost guarantee that mafia are either trying to ride this "lynch non-hostiles" horse as far as they can, or lurking like d3x to see how it turns out.

DING DING DING!

And guess who's pushing that really, REALLY, hard right now?

Oh

YEAH

, Red Coyote! HOW DISTURBING!



Oh Hai RC, why did you vote Jack again?

@SC: Well, yeah, you have to say that now, or else you admit you're scum .

@farside: If he DOESN'T visit the PGO, he gets lynched, now doesn't he?
His credibility is lower than gamma's.

Ah, cool, Troll is at L-5

##Unvote, ##Vote Troll

[UncertainKitten]

Hmm...what to do about Fishy now...his post came right before I posted mine...

If he

is

a non hostile other I feel we'd be wasting a lynch when we have SO MANY other better targets that might actually be hostile to us...

[farside22]

Just look to my sig for the remainer of the day till Fishy is lynched.

[Zorblag]

@Fishythefish, I'm not sure what you think the problem is here.

If you're telling the truth why would scum bother roleblocking an action that's going to eliminate someone who would be working against them otherwise? Scum shouldn't care whether your faction wins the point game or not should they? I'm very skeptical that you'd be a prime candidate for a roleblock.

Further, I've checked with the mod and confirmed that one shot abilities, if roleblocked, can be used again unless there's some specific mechanic that prevents it. Do you know of some such mechanic in this case? For your statement to make sense it must be a factional ability (otherwise, if you got lynched today your faction wouldn't be able to use it) so even if for whatever reason you did get roleblocked your partner(s) would still be able to use it later.

@Debonair Danny DiPietro and farside22, you seem to misunderstand the point of my plan. If the town isn't willing to lynch Fishythefish today then we should be doing something like telling him to target a PGO tonight whether or not he's going to do it. If he does then great, issue dealt with. If he doesn't then the rest of the town has lost their reason to trust him and should drop their unwillingness to lynch. Of course, if he's refusing to go along with the plan without giving objections that make sense then we should be able to go back to lynching him today.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Fishythefish]

@Fishythefish, I'm not sure what you think the problem is here.

If you're telling the truth why would scum bother roleblocking an action that's going to eliminate someone who would be working against them otherwise? Scum shouldn't care whether your faction wins the point game or not should they? I'm very skeptical that you'd be a prime candidate for a roleblock.

Further, I've checked with the mod and confirmed that one shot abilities, if roleblocked, can be used again unless there's some specific mechanic that prevents it. Do you know of some such mechanic in this case? For your statement to make sense it must be a factional ability (otherwise, if you got lynched today your faction wouldn't be able to use it) so even if for whatever reason you did get roleblocked your partner(s) would still be able to use it later.

I'd be roleblocked in order to get me lynched tomorrow because of non-compliance - the effect that I wouldn't get to do the action would be an unimportant side effect. I think that would make me an extremely attractive target.

As I've claimed before, it is a factional ability. The reason it's important to use it tonight is that tonight we can pretty well guarantee sending it to a town player. That probably won't be true any other night.

[Shotty to the Body]

He said he won't, we should probably end him. I wasn't really that impressed with the troll case earlier so looking at where the wagons stand now I'll go with the fishy lynch.

Unvote vote fishy