Mini 738: The Town of Merrin - Game Over

[GIEFF]

And ting, THIS is why I wanted you to unvote. Dourgrim would have just accidentally hammered Panzer if your vote was still on.

Sensfan, your vote is still on Panzer; you probably haven't finished reading yet, but are you OK with a Panzer lynch? I told Panzer to claim because I would be willing to vote him, but if you are not on board, then we are still one short, and I think B_B should be the one to claim.


So don't claim quite yet, Panzer.

[GIEFF]

Anybody who hammers Panzer can expect to get lynched tomorrow or vigged tonight. "I didn't realize" will not be an excuse.

I think B_B still has more "pseudo-votes" but that may be because Sensfan and Dourgrim haven't given their top 3 yet, and both of them are voting for Panzer.

[GIEFF]

Well, looking at the vote count it seems clear that Panzer will be our lynch candidate for today. Is anybody against him claiming? I will be the final vote unless Sensfan is against it, as his current vote was placed by subgenius about 35 pages ago.

I don't like how quickly the Panzer wagon grew without a lot of good reasoning, but it's hard to differentiate scummy opportunism from a desire to just end the day, no matter who is lynched.

I would prefer B_B and qwints to Panzer.

[GIEFF]

Why did you assume I was talking about your reasoning, mykonian? Do you not like your own reasoning?

[GIEFF]

Actually, Panzer is still at L-2, not L-1. Zilla unvoted Panzer in post 1002

Here are the votes of the 5 people curently voting for Panzer:


subgenius (now Sensfan) - Post 170
springlullaby - Post 815
qwints - Post 860
militant - Post 1020
Dourgrim - Post 1021

• subgenius' vote was a LONG time ago, and Sensfan hasn't stated whether he agrees with it.
  
  
• spring's vote was odd because she ignored Panzer refusing to post the previous 4 times, only noticing it once he did it for the 5th time.
  
  
• qwints vote is quite scummy, as already mentioned.
  
  
• militant and Dourgrim both appear to just want to get the day over with, without caring too much who is lynched.

That's what I mean by not a lot of good reasoning.

Dourgrim, Sensfan, and ting; we still need your top 3.

[GIEFF]

Dourgrim would be OK with B_B, too, so that is 8.

We need to get a claim today; we are running out of time.

[GIEFF]

Most of Panzer's votes seem to be more about self-preservation than about finding scum.

[GIEFF]

Every player in the game has good reason to self-preserve, so it isn't that scummy, but all your votes seem to be MORE about self-preservation than about finding scum.

If Zilla is your #1, why did you unvote Zilla and vote qwints? Just because he's higher on the list than you?

[GIEFF]

1. Joe doesn't kill himself. John (that's you), goes, "Aha! You didn't kill yourself. You're obviously not sure about your religion."
2. Joe does kill himself. It still doesn't prove religion B is right.

1. But no benefit would be gained by Joe killing himself. If she really is town, Zilla killing herself has the benefit of proving to everybody that she is town. That's the benefit. Joe could say "Yes, killing myself would prove my faith, but that's not enough to offset the cost of ending my life." But Zilla killing herself would do more than prove her faith, it would also catch two or 3 scum.

The whole reason I brought it up is that Zilla herself was trying to say that it was fine, because she's caught 2 or 3 scum on her wagon. I was just forcing her to put her money where her mouth was.

2. You are right that Zilla proving herself to be town would not mean the people she thought were scum are actually scum. And you are right that even if Zilla WAS confident she had caught 2 or 3 scum (which she was not), she should not martyr herself, for this very reason.

But Zilla did not mention this. She said she was considering martyring herself, but didn't want to do it yet because B_B was scummier, and had a similar number of votes.


You are taking the entire thing far too literally. I never wanted Zilla to self-vote or to martyr herself. Just like the kid saying "why don't you marry chocolate?" doesn't really want anybody to marry chocolate. And just like Joe doesn't really want John to kill himself.


And the fact that Zilla did not include either me or B_B in her top 3 proves that I was right. She said she had caught 2 or three scum, I told her that she didn't really think so, and she's verified that by only including one of the three in her lynch-list.


This was a minor point in my eyes, and not at all a significant part of the case against Zilla. Why do you find it so important?

-------

And Zilla, you should not get to decide who claims, no more than Panzer or B_B do. You are one of the top 3 candidates, so your views are biased. I think B_B should be the one to claim, and the one to get lynched. He has more pseudo-votes than anybody else.

[GIEFF]

Panzer really is at L-1 now, so no "accidental" votes.

[GIEFF]

8 BB (mykonian, GIEFF, militant, goat, Panzer, SL, qwints, Dour)
8 Panzer (mykonian, zilla, GIEFF, militant, SL, qwints, Dour, ting)
7 zilla (GIEFF, militant, goat, panzer, bb, qwints, Dour)
5 Qwints (mykonian, goat, Panzer, bb, GIEFF)
4 GIEFF (Panzer, bb, Dour, ting)
2 mykonian (zilla, GIEFF)
1 Goat (zilla)
1 Springlullaby (ting)

Actually, Panzer and BB are tied with ting's vote in there now. I think I agree with Zilla that it is time for Panzer to claim. I would prefer B_B, but they both have 8 pseudo-votes and Panzer is at L-1.

Goat, SL, mykonian, ting, militant, Sens, and Dourgrim; are you all OK with Panzer as the lynch-choice? If there is no opposition in the next 8 hours or so, I think Panzer should claim.

[GIEFF]

Actually, it's really just sens and goat we need to hear from; everybody else who isn't a top lynch candidate is already on the psuedo-wagon.

And I just re-read goat and saw that he wanted to put Panzer in his top 3 instead of Zilla, so that makes NINE pseudo-votes out of a possible 11. The only people not on his psuedo-wagon are B_B and Sensfan.

9 Panzer (mykonian, zilla, GIEFF, militant, SL, qwints, Dour, ting, goat)
8 BB (mykonian, GIEFF, militant, goat, Panzer, SL, qwints, Dour)
6 zilla (GIEFF, militant, panzer, bb, qwints, Dour)
5 Qwints (mykonian, goat, Panzer, bb, GIEFF)
4 GIEFF (Panzer, bb, Dour, ting)
2 mykonian (zilla, GIEFF)
1 Goat (zilla)
1 Springlullaby (ting)

Panzer is the choice.

Please claim, Panzer.

[GIEFF]

No, just claim. If somebody hammers you as a PR, then we've caught a scum, which is worth more than any power role could be.

Unless you are a nk-immune cop-vig-doc.

[GIEFF]

It COULD explain why you were so interested in self preservation.

[GIEFF]

This was mykonian's case on BB:

BB next: His Panzer vote wasn't strong. I don't know why he keeps the pressure on GIEFF, while Panzer made clear that GIEFF didn't lie, and therefor GIEFF must have acted protown.

He's scum because he's attacking the same player mykonian attacked for 30 pages. That doesn't make any sense. And the Panzer vote was fine, it was the unvote that was odd.

to start something, in case people think we should go for the second place in pseudovotes.

This is a very weird thing to say, too. What do you mean in case people think we should do it? Why don't you do what you want to do?




As people read, can they claim "not-cop" so we're sure there isn't a CC, and that a potential real cop just hasn't seen Panzer's claim yet? Right now, Zilla, mykonian, and GIEFF are the only three who have claimed not-cop.

[GIEFF]

Great catch Zilla although but I think that is in light of Qwints being there and him being your buddy.

Why did you feel the need to answer this question for mykonian? I thought you found him scummy? Shouldn't town-Panzer want to see how a player he finds scummy reacts before jumping to his defense?


And what do you mean it's in light of qwints being there? Being where? And what does qwints being Zilla's buddy have to do with why mykonian ignored qwints?

[GIEFF]

If there is a non-Panzer cop, he/she should DEFINITELY counterclaim. We likely have a protection PR. And even if we don't, the mafia may assume we do, and target another person.

How shocking, a PR doesn't want to get lynched???

Why are you assuming Panzer is really a PR?

[GIEFF]

I agree we shouldn't lynch him, but you are already looking for the next lynch target, as if you're sure there wont' be a CC. There are still 6 players who haven't seen the claim yet.

[GIEFF]

OK, that makes sense, mykonian. Hopefully the 6 other people see the claim soon.



We have a bit less than 4 days until the deadline. If we don't have any CC's in the next day or so, B_B should claim, assuming at least 5 of the 6 others have seen the thread. I would be royally pissed off if the real cop is off in lurky-land and didn't notice a fake-claim.

[GIEFF]

Do you know how I know you aren't really the cop, Panzer?

[GIEFF]

Does anybody else know how I know Panzer isn't really the cop?

[GIEFF]

Maybe one of the other 6 players knows. We really need to get their input, and QUICKLY.

I am not the cop.

[GIEFF]

Do NOT lynch him. I need to hear from the other 6 people.

[GIEFF]

I saw that rolefishing thing too, Goat, and I agree it makes him more likely to be the cop. It is also a bad thing for a real cop to say, as it is a HUGE hint that you are a PR. So by Panzer's own WIFOM-logic, why would a PR act like a PR?


Panzer is right, I DON'T know that he is not the cop. I was fishing for reactions from Panzer and from qwints (and from anybody else who may have been Panzer's scumbuddy). I was hoping for a bit more, but I'd think that the real cop would have been a bit more defensive and angry, especially considering Panzer's past, where he gets very angry when he doesn't understand why he is being voted.

Even though FIVE people haven't seen the claim yet, I agree that we should move on to B_B. I do not trust Panzer's claim, but in the absence of a counterclaim, he is right that we cannot lynch him. Although if the mafia has a roleblocker, an outed cop is no better than a townie anyway.



My vote is for B_B to claim.

[GIEFF]

Yes, mykonian, but at odds with that is the deadline which is getting closer and closer. What do we do if BB claims a power role, too? Originally I wanted to wait until just about everyone saw the claim, but I don't know when that will be. If we wait until monday, that leaves us just 24 hours for everybody to see B_B's claim, everybody the chance to CC, and everybody to shift their votes as a group to get the best lynch candidate. I have no confidence we can do all of that successfully in 24 hours.

[GIEFF]

You've got some outstanding questions that require immediate attention, Sens.

Then I suggest you repost them, because I'm not done reading yet.

All we need for now is whether or not you counterclaim Panzer's claim of being the cop.

[GIEFF]

Dude get you votes of me..if there is a counter claim then you all can string me up, but deadline is coming in rwo days and if I get deadline lynched that'll be BS. Anyone with a vote on me right now is incredibly scummy and is trying to lynch the cop.

If you're the real cop, why didn't you think it was scummy for me to say I had information that proves you weren't the cop?

[GIEFF]

Awesome, those 5 extra days should help a lot. Birthday should not claim until the other 5 players have had a chance to CC Panzer's cop claim.

[GIEFF]

Panzer really did lie though, SensFan. He's admitted it. He never thought mykonian's vote was random. This is clear based on a close reading of this post.

[GIEFF]

Post 1079:

Wow, a person about to be lynched claimed cop at deadline. I am shocked, shocked to find PR claiming going on here.

My vote stays.

Post 1087:

Unvote: Vote:Qwints

YOU DO NOT LYNCH A CLAIMED COP REGARDLESS OF CIRCUMSTANCES.

Post 1089:

Do you know how I know you aren't really the cop, Panzer?

You don't, Cause I'm cop.

Post 1102:

Notice how the three people that aren't buying my claim and wanting to lynch a non counterclaimed cop are the 3 closest to the top of my scum list.

Also, Goat, sure but if they claim cop scum has to be pretty good a pulling shit out of their ass. Also, cop is one of the most popular power roles so their is a HUGE risks in claiming it. And on the whole I had too check my role, that clearly was a joke that I was using to illustrate that GIEFF had a good point. It wasn't me saying I seriously had to check my role.

Post 1121:

Dude get you votes of me..if there is a counter claim then you all can string me up, but deadline is coming in rwo days and if I get deadline lynched that'll be BS. Anyone with a vote on me right now is incredibly scummy and is trying to lynch the cop.

Post 1138:

unvote

Panzer now seems credible enough to warrant leaving him alive.

Which of Panzer's posts in between your first statement and your last convinced you he was credible? The part where he called everybody voting for him scummy? Or the part where he called you scummy, specifically?

unvote

vote qwints

[GIEFF]

Sens, why are you analyzing posts made by the player you replaced?

[GIEFF]

Wouldn't it help you to know one of the players' alignments you are analyzing?

[GIEFF]

Yes, if you truly are unbaised. But a lot of the things you've said seem a lot more glowing than they should be.


You haven't said a single negative thing about the player you replaced, yet you have at least once about every single other player you've mentioned. I don't think that is a coincidence, and for you to now claim that you don't know who you are replacing is suspect. Do you know your role?

[GIEFF]

So are militant and ting the only two people left who haven't posted since the cop claim 3 days ago?

[GIEFF]

I forgot Dourgrim, who said he may need to be replaced.

If all three of the MIA posters (militant, ting, and Dourgrim) claim "not-cop", then I think B_B should claim ASAP - does anybody disagree? We just have to hope they get back to the thread soon.

mod, have you prodded militant, ting, or Dourgrim recently?

[GIEFF]

I am not cop, but I don't buy Panzer's claim at all. Still, my line of thought prevents me from voting for Panzer yet since it is bad play. Thinking...thinking...
Need time to consider the claim. Anyway, I don't think I voted Panzer of put him in my top 3, but I surely would now.

Why would you put Panzer in your top 3 now? What has changed since Post 836, when he was 5th on your list, or Post 956, when he was not in your top 3?

[GIEFF]

Before you go, Dourgrim: Panzer has claimed cop, do you counter that claim?

[GIEFF]

According to the latest pseudo-vote count, B_B is 3 ahead of qwints. SL, Dour, and militant would all prefer a B_B lynch over qwints.

@ Dour, SL, and militant: Is that still accurate? You prefer B_B to qwints?

----

@ Dour, ting, and militant: Do you CC Panzer's cop claim? You are costing us precious time. Not posting for 3 days is one thing, but not noticing a cop claim by the lynch-target for three days is another.

-----


qwints, please explain why you unvoted Panzer, and why he now looks credible.

[GIEFF]

Dour, ting, and militant have still not responded to the claim. He is not conditionally town until there really is no counterclaim. It's just a shame that it takes 4 days for everybody to see and respond to the claim.

[GIEFF]

No counter claim combined with an inability on my part to see anyone else bread crumbing their role as cop. Thus panzer is conditionally town for me.

Why didn't these reasons apply when you said your vote would stay, in Post 1079? 5 people claimed "not-cop" at the time, and now it's up to 8 people. There are still 3 left who haven't had the opportunity to CC.


----

I don't trust Panzer's claim. I don't think the real cop would have been that lackadaisical about me claiming I KNEW he wasn't really the cop, and I don't think the real cop would be as quiet as Panzer has been lately, and as uninvolved in trying to find a better lynch candidate.

I am pissed off that it's taken 4 days for THREE different players to respond to a cop claim (especially considering the fact that the last time they checked the thread, the deadline would have been TODAY). If none of militant, ting, or Dourgrim are going to CC the cop claim, then we very much needed those four days. We're coming close to the deadline again.

[GIEFF]

lackadaisical just means laid-back, not caring. Look at how pissed off he got in the past; he showed none of that when I told him I was sure he wasn't really the cop. He just said "I really am the cop" and left it at that. Wouldn't the real cop be more interested in proving me wrong, or in calling me scummy for lying?

This is all moot if militant, ting, and Dourgrim all claim "not-cop," though.

mod, have you prodded militant or ting recently?

They aren't posting at all in other games, either.

[GIEFF]

Thanks, Dour.

[GIEFF]

Even if Panzer is the real cop, lynching him wouldn't be all that horrible, because I assume the setup is designed to avoid the "follow-the-cop syndrome". So mafia either has a roleblocker, we don't have a protection role, or something else is going on to ensure that once a cop claims, he is not all that useful to the town. If he is the real cop, now that he is outed, he's likely no more valuable than a vanilla townie.

However, I still don't want to lynch an un-CC'd cop claim, and won't support a Panzer lynch if neither ting nor militant CC's.

I think I would prefer qwints to BB now among lynch-candidates, but it's close. And I think that because there are three posters (Dourgrim, springlullaby, and militant) who included BB in their lynch-list that did not include qwints, then BB should be the target.

Unless these three have changed their minds, or others would prefer qwints to BB.

[GIEFF]

even when it is midnight, I know the first part is WRONG: the fact that someone is confirmed increases the odds that you hit scum with a lynch. I tried some calculation (GD stuff) for a simple setup with a tracker, and part of it's usefullness is that it can be a confirmed towny.

The point is that he is NOT confirmed cop. I would definitely not lynch a confirmed townie. My point is that I don't think he is really the cop, and that even if I am wrong, lynching him wouldn't be the end of the world.

I still don't want to lynch him without a CC.



Care to explain why you disagree with the logic, Sensfan? Or are you of the B_B school, where the only thing you need to do to prove an argument wrong is call it stupid and refuse to discuss it any further?

If a hidden cop is worth 10 points to the town, how many points do you think an outed cop is worth?

[GIEFF]

Before you get replaced, can you tell us if you counter Panzer's cop claim?

[GIEFF]

Here is my unofficial vote-count. Let me know if I made a mistake.

qwints (5): mykonian, Panzer, GIEFF, Zilla, Goatrevolt
Panzer (1): militant
Zilla (1): Beyond_Birthday
Not voting (5): ting =), Sensfan, springlullaby, qwints, Dourgrim


mykonian has since switched to BB, but did not unvote first, so his vote is still on qwints.


And here is the latest pseudo-vote tally. I added Zilla to the OK-with-lynching-qwints list; are their any other updates?

9 Panzer (mykonian, zilla, GIEFF, militant, SL, qwints, Dour, ting, goat)
8 BB (mykonian, GIEFF, militant, goat, Panzer, SL, qwints, Dour)
6 zilla (GIEFF, militant, panzer, bb, qwints, Dour)
6 Qwints (mykonian, goat, Panzer, bb, GIEFF, Zilla)
4 GIEFF (Panzer, bb, Dour, ting)
2 mykonian (zilla, GIEFF)
1 Goat (zilla)
1 Springlullaby (ting)

[GIEFF]

You never unvoted qwints, mykonian, so your vote is technically still on him.

I'll remove Panzer from the pseudo-voting list completely - we won't lynch him today, so the next step is to find the next person, and quickly.

8 BB (mykonian, GIEFF, militant, goat, Panzer, SL, qwints, Dour)
6 zilla (GIEFF, militant, panzer, bb, qwints, Dour)
6 Qwints (mykonian, goat, Panzer, bb, GIEFF, Zilla)
4 GIEFF (Panzer, bb, Dour, ting)
2 mykonian (zilla, GIEFF)
1 Goat (zilla)
1 Springlullaby (ting)

I would prefer a qwints lynch to a BB lynch, and qwints has 3 more votes than BB (assuming mykonian switches his vote), but BB has 2 more pseudo-votes. As I've said before, SL, militant, and Dour are the three OK with BB but not OK with mykonian; I've asked them multiple times if they are OK with a qwints lynch and they haven't responded.

Is anybody who is still reading the thread against a qwints claim or lynch?

[GIEFF]

That is L-1 on qwints guys, careful.


I think qwints should claim. Don't do it yet qwints, but if everyone else agrees, then you should.

[GIEFF]

nvm it's L-2, cause mykonian unvoted. I still think qwints should claim over B_B.

[GIEFF]

With the VT claim, I don't think we should lynch anybody besides you today, qwints. I don't think scum would claim VT, but we can't very well go onto a third person and risk outing a PR.


So any thoughts, accusations, or hunches you can give us in the next couple days that we can look back on later will be helpful.

[GIEFF]

At least this is better then a Panzer lynch.

Why is that?

So if you have a scummy feeling from BB, you should question him. If you couldn't stop lynching qwints anyway, asking for a claim was a joke.

I have a scummy feeling from both qwints and B_B. qwints claiming VT lessened it somewhat, but not enough for me to think he's town, and not enough for me to want to switch to B_B, as the greater likelihood B_B is scum (relative to qwints) is not enough to offset the potential to out a PR.

-----

L-2 on qwints now, as B_B never unvoted. I would prefer to

wait on the hammer

, both to see if qwints has anything he can leave for us before he gets lynched, and to give ting a chance to CC Panzer's claim.

[GIEFF]

Thanks for the vote-count, kloud.

Has ting picked up the prod?

Do you have anything to say for us to look back on later, qwints? The fact that you aren't eager to do so makes me more confident you are scum.

[GIEFF]

mykonian is scum.

[GIEFF]

L-1 for qwints now.

Please give us something we can analyze later, qwints.

-----

BB, I am re-iterating my position that mykonian is scum, which has not changed. I've thought mykonian was scum for a while now, but there was no support for his lynch, so I haven't pursued it so that we get a good lynch out before the deadline(Zilla was the only other on the psuedo-wagon).

mykonian slipped when he assumed Panzer's cop-claim was valid (before everyone had a chance to CC), and he's trying to stifle discussion about the possibility and un-CC'd cop claim could be scum. He doesn't just disagree, he's trying to end the discussion.

[GIEFF]

You DID assume he was cop. You referred to him as a PR, and immediately started looking for the next lynch-target.

------

More stuff before twilight hits to refer back to in case I get whacked:

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 29#1529029

mykonian says BB is scum for focusing on me, even though Panzer made it clear I didn't lie. Yet mykonian has done the exact same thing.


http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 53#1522453
A summary of mykonian's inconsistencies regarding his cases on me.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 50#1521650
More stuff about mykonian.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 83#1514183
Me countering the case that mykonian finally made after I repeatedly demanded he make one if he was going to continue attacking me. He soon after decided I wasn't really all that scummy, but said it was only because Panzer showed my case to be more valid than he thought. Even though Panzer had already done this. And even though that shouldn't be enough to go from attacking someone for 30 pages to assuming they must be done.


mykonian kept pushing for Zilla to claim, even when she was down to L-4, and even though he later claimed he didn't want to lynch her.


mykonian called Zilla a townie on three separate occasions.

[GIEFF]

congratulations.

Thanks!

[GIEFF]

Congratulations on page 50 on day 1.

Do we have time for a mykonian wagon? :P

Technically, it's still less than 50 pages.

We don't have time OR support for a mykonian wagon.

[GIEFF]

I am conflicted here; qwints' claim is more believable to me than Panzer's, but I know that it could very well be WIFOM, and I don't want to have to force a 3rd person to claim, especially just 2 days before the deadline. I think qwints has to be the lynch, SL.

[GIEFF]

It was never about you wanting to lynch an un-cc'd cop. It was about you assuming immediately he was the legitimate cop, and trying to cut off any discussion about the potential for him to be scum. Nobody is arguing we lynch Panzer today.

The abrupt halt to the tunneling is a lot scummier than the tunneling itself was.

Your "too scummy" defense doesn't work. You called Zilla a townie three times. Even if you were town, you would stop doing it after I called you on it, for the exact same reasons you would stop doing it as scum, i.e. it looks scummy.


------------------


The fact that qwints doesn't want to say anything to help us out makes me more confident he is scum.

[GIEFF]

Haha, the mod is mocking us in the thread title. Poor kloud.

[GIEFF]

Since deadline is approaching and BB is more likely to be scum than I am:

vote: BB[/unvote]

This is in no way helpful to the town. I've asked you to make some cases or analysis or anything you can give us to look back on tomorrow when your alignment is known, but you've refused to do so.


I think we should just hammer qwints and end the day.

[GIEFF]

That's a hammer, I think.

[GIEFF]

We are arguing ourselves in circles. We need to lynch somebody already. 35 pages in a mini is not good for town. It's not. There is nothing good about this.

I figure this is a good time for me to claim. My role is "3-year-old." I am afraid of the dark, so I must prolong the day as long as possible; my win condition is to get the thread to 50 pages before a day 1 lynch.

OH NO! GIEFF JUST WON! GAH!!!

Barely!

[GIEFF]

Vote: springlullaby

[GIEFF]

Confirm vote: springlullaby

[GIEFF]

------
March 9. Qwints was at L-5.

Post 1136

Unvote

Not cop, not totally up to speed as of now but will probably be waiting for BB.
Happy to observe Sens right now. 6

-----

spring's very next post came on March 13. Qwints was at L-1.

Post 1231

Vote: BB

For previously cited reason + I do not like the dragging with the refusal to claim.

Why not vote BB earlier? Why wait until qwints is at L-1? Where did BB "drag and refuse to claim?" Why didn't you question Zilla for also refusing to claim? Why hadn't you discussed B_B's scumminess since February 24th, 17 days earlier?
-------

Post 815

springlullaby votes Panzer for saying he refuses to read "all these long posts."

Even though she herself said just a couple pages earlier:

Ok, the huge ass posts have to stop. There is only so much that can be said in a game of mafia, beyond which threshold it is obstinacy one way or another, and said obstinacy doesn't help any because it is impossible to read.

Post 902: I demonstrate that Panzer has already refused to read posts 4 times, yet spring only thought it was scummy the 5th time he did it. spring claims not to have seen these 4 times, yet I find that highly unlikely, considering the large number of posts that referenced it:

Post 680

Post 682

Post 684

Post 691

Post 694

Post 706

Post 707

797

[GIEFF]

Zilla has climbed the scum-charts, too.

I would very much like to hear qwints' response to my question about the similarities between his only two votes in this game.

* B_B wagon grows, qwints hops on at L-4.
* Zilla wagon grows, qwints says "this seems more about abrasiveness than scumminess." B_B was just as abrasive as Zilla; where was this excuse then?
* Panzer wagon grows, qwints hops on at L-4.



Very little content from qwints, just about no original points raised, he doesn't appear interested in scumhunting, and he loves jumping on building wagons, late enough to be sure they're going somewhere, and early enough to avoid the icky responsibility that comes from hammering or putting someone at L-1. Niiiiiice and comfy, those extra votes at L-4.

And as Panzer is now virtually cleared due to no CC and the framer, it makes B_B a lot more likely to be town, as qwints hopped on B_B's wagon in a very similar way.

Yet he met Zilla's wagon with firm resistance. This alone wouldn't necessarily be scummy, but couple it with the fact that he was so willing to hop on bandwagons for whatever reason, it looks very fishy.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 97#1515997

See above post for links to context.


Also, I initially was scared off from the Zilla-wagon when Panzer and Dourgrim jumped on. Now that Panzer is 95% town, this is not as much an issue.


Post 608: I show qwints defending Zilla.


Post 653: Zilla defends qwints.

[GIEFF]

Even if Panzer is the real cop, lynching him wouldn't be all that horrible, because I assume the setup is designed to avoid the "follow-the-cop syndrome". So mafia either has a roleblocker, we don't have a protection role, or something else is going on to ensure that once a cop claims, he is not all that useful to the town. If he is the real cop, now that he is outed, he's likely no more valuable than a vanilla townie.

That's some of the dumbest logic I've ever heard.

I targetted Zilla. I got no result I was scared off by something before I found her. So I was either blocked or she's immune.

That doesn't look a whole lot more valuable than a vanilla townie to me.

How far are you in your re-read, Sens?

[GIEFF]

Do you have more flavor for us, Panzer? I am not ready to call you 100% cleared yet.

[GIEFF]

If it's an SK, I have to wonder if that's Mykonian (again, he was the first to introduce the idea. I've found that people like to mention their own roles.) It could be a vig though.

I agree with this, that people like to mention their own roles. I would not lynch mykonian because of this, but I think this is one more minor thing to add to mykonian's list of scumminess.

However, I think the ting =) kill looks like a good vig-kill, as ting had not posted in the thread for a VERY long time, and probably likely to be replaced soon anyway. It's hard to say whether the second kill was vig or SK, and I don't think we should spend a lot of time discussing it. Let's find scummy people and lynch them - we did a good job of that yesterday.

[GIEFF]

What do you mean it might be interesting to note? If you have a case to make on BB, then make it.

Zilla, you did distance from qwints later in the day, but early on you two were VERY buddying, in both directions.

Post 631

I actually think putting pressure on him may be a good idea, though he strikes me more as an uninvested player more than anything, a perfect scapegoat for ambitious scum. The problem is that he hasn't contributed much to judge it on. People make mistakes, but it's all about the intent and cause of those mistakes, and, again, I haven't heard enough from him to see whether his intent is pro- or anti-town.

Very wishy-washy. Leaving yourself open to both outcomes (qwints-is-town and qwints-isscum), depending on which way the town goes.

In this post, you also say that some of my points are "quite valid."


Post 653:

On qwints:

He promised a read on Mykonian and failed to deliver, he promised a rereading of [your] misrepresentations and failed to deliver, and he generally doesn't have much input in the thread.

He replaced MacavityLock who argued to try hunting the SK instead of the mafia, and I find that highly suspect, for reasons we've been over many times before. In fact, he seems to be aware of the problem this causes, reading his third post, and tries to backpedal from that stance, though his second post pretty much hinges on Panzer arguing to lynch mafia over SK.

Still, a possible misunderstanding.

Again leaving yourself a town-out.

Many developments and sparse activity make for the kind of play he's using, town or scum, and if he's town, it's an easy frame job for scum to pull off. When you read the post in the context of the situation, it's far less scummy, aside from his forgetting about Mykonian/Panzer.

In fact, almost all of your case on him is based on his inactivity and playstyle, which would be fixed with more contribution. Apply pressure might get him to post more, so we can actually have a valid opinon of him. Including MacavityLock, that position has contributed a total of 14 real posts (one of Macavity's is V/LA announcement, one is confirm, one of qwints' is an EBWOP, one is introduction, one is a "sorry, will read later.")

And this is the defense. You say votes should be pressure votes so we can "actually have a valid opinion of him." I thought you said some points were quite valid?

Post 657

GIEFF: why do you think Qwints is a lynch candidate while Dour is not? Aside from your vote, neither have any votes on them.

Trying to get attention off qwints, or trying to get me to re-think my position of qwints as a lynch-candidate.


And then you started backing off of your defense. In 864 and 906, you started to question qwints, and said you would be willing to lynch him. And in post 1002, you voted him, with just one vote on him at the time.


And qwints was incredibly defensive of you, jumping quickly onto panzer and B_B's wagons, while avoiding yours, and even arguing against it.

[GIEFF]

Nobody is claiming it is intentional, mykonian. And it's not a major point either way.

[GIEFF]

Yeah, obviously only town people wouldn't question Qwints scumminess.

They would not do so in such a wishy-washy way, first claiming that some points are valid, and then claiming that no points are actually valid because qwints has been lurking.

[GIEFF]

Did you notice qwints jumping on Panzer and B_B's wagons, but not jumping on yours? Did you think it was odd at the time? Do you think it's odd now?

[GIEFF]

BB is voting me because scum protected me in game, which contradicts his stance on me earlier where I must have been scum for defending a townie.

Which earlier stance? Can you provide a link to the post?

[GIEFF]

I dislike post 1282.

And I'm not going through 50 pages to prove something so obvious.

Unvote: Vote:Zilla

She bussed Qwints andhad me blocked.

I don't get it. You said SL has been scummy all game, and refuse to provide links, because it's so obvious? The last time you mentioned springlullaby was page 10.

[GIEFF]

BB, can you explain why Zilla's attack is pathetic, and address her claim that you contradicted yourself?

[GIEFF]

OK, so take some time now to provide some links.

[GIEFF]

Agreed completely, BB - there was no contradiction. Do you see that, Zilla

And Panzer, please play the game again. What good does making a point about long days being bad for the town do?


Still waiting on Sensfan and springlullaby to respond.


And thanks for replacing, Xtoxm! Good luck reading everything...

[GIEFF]

Contradiction is that he said I must have been scum because I didn't buy goat's case and didn't jump on him, so I must be scum because I was buddying up to a townie. Now when Qwints doesn't buy goat's case and doesn't jump on me, I must be scumbuddies with him.

Basically, when I didn't jump on him, it was scum trying to buddy to town. When Qwints didn't jump on me, it was scum protecting a partner.

That is not a contradiction.

[GIEFF]

And in both cases, B_B is calling the person DEFENDING scummy. Not the person being defended.

And Zilla, your defense of B_B was more an attack on Goat than a defense of B_B. You knew you wanted to call goat maf, and so to do that, you had to call B_B town.

[GIEFF]

GIEFF, you're looking at it from the wrong angle. Birthday, you're ignoring the double-standard, either intentionally or inadvertantly, and it's looking intentional at this point.

I am not, and B_B is not. I will not respond to this anymore unless somebody besides Zilla thinks it really is a contradiction.

[GIEFF]

That is L-1 on Zilla. I am not against her lynch, and normally would be the 5th vote willing to hammer that would get her to claim, but we should wait until we hear from springlullaby, mykonian, SensFan, and Xtoxm.

[GIEFF]

Can somebody unvote Zilla to avoid an "accidental" hammer?

And I would still like to hear from Panzer about why he thinks spring has been scummy "all game" even though Panzer hasn't mentioned spring since page 10.

[GIEFF]

Wow. You can't read the post directly above yours?

That's horrible.


I think she is scum, but we should have taken a LOT more time today.

HoS SensFan

.

[GIEFF]

If I die tonight, please do NOT continue under the assumption Panzer is cleared. His play has been extremely anti-town.

[GIEFF]

I apologize for the quadruple-post, but as Sensfan ended the day so abruptly, I want to get as much of my thoughts out there as possible. I never got the chance to talk more about mykonian today, so I will do so below:

mykonian was quite defensive of qwints, although again leaving the other side open in his typical wishy-washy fashion. mykonian says "on the other hand" a LOT, because he's trying to keep his opinions open on both sides, depending on who gets lynched. He wants to stop a qwints lynch, but not so strongly that it's obvious to point back to later, so every time he is defensive of qwints, he throws in a "but on the other hand."

More wishy-washiness towards qwints. He is "not against" a qwints claim, but he also doesn't want to get too many people to claim.

Yet another post where mykonian tries to gently and subtly steer us away from a qwints lynch. He tells me I should question B_B, and that if I can't change my mind about qwints, then asking for a claim was pointless. But after this, of course, he says things like "at least this is better than a Panzer lynch" and "I'm not happy with qwints' play." Gotta leave that back door open, in case the "front-door" plan of switching lynch-targets doesn't work, right?



In mykonian's vote for Zilla today, he says she played a very aggressive, anti-town game, and left it at that. He didn't say

anything

like this earlier in the thread. In fact, as you will remember, yesterday he was AGAINST a Zilla lynch as he didn't find her scummy, yet FOR a Zilla claim.

Zilla was NOT on mykonian's "pseudo-vote" list, and mykonian has never FOS'd or voted Zilla. Yet her 4 or 5 posts on day 2 were enough for him to put her at L-2, with nothing else to say but "she has been aggressive and anti-town"? Why didn't you say that yesterday, when she exhibited 95%+ of her aggressive, anti-town behavior? Or were the 4 posts you saw today enough to completely change your opinion of her and sneak on her quick-growing wagon at L-2?


--------------

And Sensfan, I'm very pissed off you made me get all this out tonight and stay up too late due to your premature hammer. I appreciate you replacing into such a daunting behemoth of a game, but you can't spare the 20 seconds to check up on vote counts? Not even when someone posts TWICE IN A ROW that we should be careful that Zilla is at L-1? In the post IMMEDIATELY BEFORE YOURS AT THE TOP OF THE FRICKIN' PAGE? Seriously?

[GIEFF]

mykonian says "on the other hand" a LOT, because he's trying to keep his opinions open on both sides, depending on who gets lynched.

To put my money where my mouth is:

1. About pantzers early game: it is undoubtely protown.

   But on the other hand

   , it barely can hurt scum. I don't know how panzer starts his games normally.

2. GIEFF's case, how hard it is to disprove now, still doesn't explain why Panzer must be town.

   But on the other hand

   , Panzers play makes absolutely no sense, and what I think to know about him, that is not normal for him.

   He tries to keep both me and Panzer open as scum, and uses this "back door" later in the day, when he abruptly switches from voting me all game to calling me townie and voting Panzer. Good thing he pretended to be so conflicted!
   
   

3. If you look at how I played while Zilla had me as target, you can see I was not that interested. Keep in mind that her arguments are not strong. However, that doesn't mean that Zilla can't be useful to town: Just look at the reactions of people to her. As I already stated, I don't think she has brought anything up that makes me think you are scum, goat, and this reaction makes you likely town, it looks sincere.
   
   

   But on the other hand

   , you don't bring anything more with your case. Sure, it is easy to point out that her accusations are wrong, we all know. She picks, and then something comes out: I don't think anyone else has thought you scummy because of Zilla. But do you really think that contradictions, strawmen, etc. make a good case? I have seen too many mislynches that way. It is simply too easy for scum to sit back while townies don't understand each other.

   (also note mykonian calling both Goat and Zilla townies here - we already know Goat is a townie, and if Zilla is townie, we will know that very soon, too).
   
   

4. I think I have been pretty clear: the actions you made against Panzer felt to me like you wanted to take out an aggressive player early based on one of his mistakes.
   
   But

   on the other hand

   , Panzers actions cannot be explained, and I don't like that. Means something is wrong there.

5. agreed, it won't be better then a random lynch.

   But on the other hand

   , what do we lose when she is a towny? close to nothing. Otherwise scum will just leave her in the game, and we'll be sitting here with an inactive player.

   So he agrees, but on the other hand, he disagrees.
   
   

6. not impressed. GIEFF nitpick against his "targets", goes way too far, and then you get accusations that he is tunneling, as his behaviour against someone doesn't make sense. I think that explains the contradiction partly.
   
   

   On the other hand

   , to lie as scum that way makes little more sense then it does as town, isn't it?

7. ok, I read it wrong the first time, obviously.
   
   But again, if I was scum, and I would try to look as protown as possible, I would refrain from changing stances a lot, and I would tunnel more, just to avoid this problem. If you change stances as scum you can wait for this.
   
   But

   on the other hand

   , as towny, if you think things over/reread and you come to a different conclusion, wouldn't you change? Tunneling is antitown.

   WIFOM and fence-sitting - the hallmark of scum. But on the other hand, why would scum act so scummy?
   
   

8. If I work from the assumption that GIEFF is scum, then Panzer is most likely town. And while BB has had not a good start (the panzer wagon... later the vote for zilla on little reasons), he makes valid points against GIEFF later. Zilla is simply annoying in my mind. Looks too much on little things, but at least has not gotten anybody too close to a lynch by this.
   
   

   On the other hand

   , this whole thought is based on the fact that GIEFF is scum. If he is not, then he could be right about Panzer, but I don't think this likely.

9. I thought we should go with the pseudovotes, as they show the majority of us was in favor of a BB lynch: but I'm afraid qwints is just the easy target just before the lynch, and I don't know if I should be that happy with it.

   On the other hand

   , a lurker lynch is better then a random lynch.

And if you think these are "just slips" or if you think calling Zilla a townie THREE TIMES are "just slips" you are vastly underestimating the power of the subconscious, and the amount of information scum have to pretend to hide with every single word they write.

[GIEFF]

You're improving; there was no "but on the other hand, my other eye is not on you."

I attack more than one person because I don't want to let anybody slip through the cracks. I don't think Zilla is the scummiest, and I don't think she was the best lynch-target, and so I didn't vote her.

[GIEFF]

And I think that attacking someone while not being on there wagon is FAR FAR FAR less scummy than being on someone's wagon while not attacking them.

Don't you?

[GIEFF]

And how precisely did you look at Zilla's posts before voting her?

[GIEFF]

That is plausible to me, as Sens' last post was on page 52, so clicking on the "last post" arrow would have brought him to that page. It still seems like a very odd mistake to make, especially considering your last three posts in other games were about L-1 and hammering.


Zilla, can you claim? Nobody CC if she claims your role - if she is lying, it will soon become apparent. And Zilla, if you are a power role, can you give us the results of last night's action?

[GIEFF]

Because danger is my middle name?

[GIEFF]

No, I quoted:

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 02#1561502


How far are you in your re-read, Sensfan? I've liked your summaries so far; any chance you could pump out what you have so far before the day ends?

And Xtoxm, any thoughts you can tell us now could help.

[GIEFF]

It's mod-kill worthy? I didn't realize this - which rule is it breaking? Would it be modkill-worthy if I just linked to the post and didn't quote them? Or if I just talked about them instead of linking them?

[GIEFF]

This is only my 4th game on this site, but I've seen people bring up activity levels in other games before, and didn't think what I did would be a problem (and is not against the rules listed for this game). I apologize, and we can drop it now if the mod chooses not to kill me.

Can you answer the above questions related to this game?

[GIEFF]

Basically, what you've done, is a clear cut modkill. Sorry man. Linking is also not allowed - Just talking about them would be, aslong as you didnt say what games. It would also be fine if he was dead in the game. Atleast, that's how it would work if I was modding.

Would you make that explicit in your rule-set if you were modding, Xtoxm?



I wonder what kloud's mod-kill flavor would look like?



Fair enough, Sensfan - you are right that it is very unlikely you get killed tonight.

[GIEFF]

Why are you quoting posts from another game, Xtoxm?

[GIEFF]

I know, I'm just kidding. I PM'd kloud; hopefully he is merciful.

[GIEFF]

Zilla, don't claim until we know if I'm getting modkilled or not... you may live through today.

[GIEFF]

OK, then please claim, Zilla. Knowing your role while everybody is still here could help.

[GIEFF]

So if the super-long day one is daunting you, don't read the whole damn thing. Read the last 10-20 pages or so. The early stuff we can just look back on for clues based on buddying or when you want to look at someone in more detail in iso. It would be a shame if this game went inactive; it has been a lot of fun for me so far.

[GIEFF]

Springlullaby seemed real eager to see my reasons for voting her, but since I posted them 5 pages and 4 days ago, she has not responded.


Xtoxm, it is very difficult to find replacements for a 60-page game, and it becomes harder and harder the more people replace. I don't think it's necessary to read Day 1 in its entirety.

[GIEFF]

But what I fear is, is that this horrible day 1 will make this game hard for people to get in, and when the

towny

that constantly pushed us into being active disappears, I don't know what is going to happen. Again, this is nothing against the players, it is the game.

And mykonian just called ME a townie.

[GIEFF]

And is assuming I will disappear.

[GIEFF]

You think those are poor assumptions, Gieff?

mykonian referred to Zilla as a "townie" three times yesterday. He referred to goat as a "townie" once (and goat has since been revealed to be pro-town). I don't think these are assumptions, I think they are slips made by scum-mykonian, revealing he knows more about alignments than he should.

If Zilla flips scum, this is mostly moot.

[GIEFF]

and about the picking on townies: that could be a scumslip. I would like to hear Panzers explanation of that (although I can imagine what his answer is going to be).

This quote was about Panzer's "townie" slip where he called dejkha/Zilla a townie, and shows that mykonian does think calling someone a townie could be a scumslip.



Post 555 (referring to both Zilla and Goat):

I have seen too many mislynches that way. It is simply too easy for scum to sit back while townies don't understand each other.

Post 565 (again referring to Zilla and Goat):

I know I can't argue with this, but I have seen this too often: two townies that go after each other, pointing out that the other doesn't understand them the right way.

Post 649

I would like a zilla-claim too. Otherwise we are just lynching a towny because the game dies before we can change.

Post 723

why not? it seems like people want to lynch her? could be usefull to find out if you mislynch a powerrole, wouldn't it, GIEFF?

These last two are especially ironic considering Zilla was just lynched WITHOUT a claim, despite my attempts to avoid that from happening, not the mention the fact that mykonian himself was on the wagon.

[GIEFF]

Really, power of the subconcious and such: if we believed you, my subconcious is the only thing that posts! GIEFF, for something to be a slip, I shouldn't notice that I make it, and seriously, after so many times you said it, do you really think you can call it a slip?

You called me a townie and Goat a townie. That's twice you've let slip you knew our alignments. You've called Zilla a townie 4 times, expressed just about ZERO suspicion of her yesterday, yet were quick to jump on her wagon today, even though very little about her changed.

If Zilla flips town, I don't see how you can't be scum. 6 different townie slips, and all about actual townies? No suspicion at all of Zilla on day 1, and then you jump quickly on her wagon on day 2?

[GIEFF]

1380 was a slip, too.

[GIEFF]

Can you stop making them?

Even without the slips, you have done plenty of other scummy things, as I've summarized in the twilights of both Day 1 and Day 2.

[GIEFF]

Final vote-summary in case I die. militant and subgenius were very light voters, which I usually think is scummy, but the lightest voter of all (ting) was town, so it's hard to say.

By Character

Panzerjager

Vote:GIEFF Post 19
Unvote, Vote:Mykonian Post 36
FoS:Ting Post 44
Unvote: Vote:Springlullaby Post 158
FoS:Gieff Post 225
Unvote: Vote: Beyong_Birthday, Unvote: Vote:Zilla FoS:Beying Birthday Post 265
Unvote:Zilla, Unvote: Vote: Beyond Birthday Post 296
Unvote. Vote:Zilla Post 298
Unvote, Vote:Beyond_Birthday Post 433
Unvote:Vote:Zilla. Post 623
Huge FoS:GIEFF Post 818
Unvote: Zilla Vote:Qwints Post 1038
Unvote: Vote:Zilla Post 1046
Unvote: Vote:Qwints Post 1087
Vote:Springlullaby Post 1279
Unvote: Vote:Zilla Post 1297

Goatrevolt

Vote: Panzerjager Post 20
Unvote, Vote MacavityLock Post 77
Unvote, Vote Beyond_Birthday Post 285
FoS Zilla Post 524
Unvote, Vote Zilla Post 551
FoS Qwints, Unvote Post 897
Vote Beyond Birthday Post 1033
Unvote Post 1168
Vote Qwints Post 1182

mykonian

vote GIEFF Post 24
unvote, vote GIEFF Post 55
FoS GIEFF and Dourgrim Post 137
vote Beyond_birthday. <BR><BR>FoS GIEFF Post 241
unvote vote Beyond_birthday Post 251
unvote vote GIEFF Post 312
unvote Post 414
vote GIEFF Post 579
unvote vote Spring Post 725
unvote vote GIEFF Post 803
unvote, Vote Panzerjager Post 806
unvote <BR>Vote Panzerjager Post 842
unvote Post 875
vote qwints Post 885
vote BB Post 1066
unvote Post 1190
unvote vote Qwints Post 1246
vote zilla Post 1322

militant

Vote ting =) Post 25
Unvote Post 279
Vote Zilla Post 562
Unvote Post 705
Vote Panzer Post 1020

ting =)

Vote: MacavityLock Post 26
unvote. Vote:Panzerjager Post 38
unvote. Post 982

qwints

Vote: Dourgrim

(Posted as MacavityLock)

Post 27
Unvote: Dour. Vote: Panzer

(Posted as MacavityLock)

Post 47
Unvote

(Posted as MacavityLock)

Post 125
vote Beyond_Birthday Post 517
FOS: Zilla Post 704
unvote, vote Panzer Post 860
unvote Post 1138

Dourgrim

vote: Panzerjager Post 28
unvote: Panzerjager <BR><BR>vote: GIEFF Post 33
FoS: springlullaby Post 40
unvote: GIEFF Post 80
FoS: mykonian, vote: Panzer Post 95
FoS: GIEFF Post 217
unvote: Panzerjager <BR><BR>vote: GIEFF Post 219
unvote: GIEFF <BR><BR>FoS: GIEFF, vote: Beyond_Birthday, HUGE FoS's: ting =) and qwints, slightly smaller but still pretty big FoS: springlullaby Post 400
medium-sized FoS: subgenius Post 442
unvote: BB <BR><BR>vote: Panzer Post 445
unvote Post 625
vote: Zilla Post 640
unvote: Zilla <BR><BR>vote: Panzerjager Post 691
unvote: Panzer <BR><BR>vote: Zilla <BR><BR>vote: end the damn day Post 801
unvote: Zilla <BR><BR>vote: Panzer Post 1021
unvote Post 1165
vote: qwints Post 1210
vote: Zilla Post 1323

SensFan

vote:Militant

(Posted as subgenius)

Post 29
FoS: Panzer

(Posted as subgenius)

Post 167
unvote <BR>vote: Panzerjager

(Posted as subgenius)

Post 170
Unvote Post 1123
Vote: Zilla Post 1326
Unvote Post 1345

Beyond_Birthday

Vote mykonian Post 31
Unvotes Post 71
Unvote Post 234
Vote Zilla Post 384
Vote Qwints Post 1198
Unvote; Vote Qwints Post 1222
Vote Zilla Post 1293
Vote Zilla Post 1299

springlullaby

Vote subgenius Post 39
Vote djekha Post 97
Unvote, vote djekha Post 98
Unvote Post 270
Vote Beyond_Birthday <BR> Post 753
Unvote Vote Panzer Post 815
Unvote Post 1136
Vote: BB Post 1231

Zilla

FoS: Dourgrim

(Posted as dejkha)

Post 46
Vote: Goatrevolt Post 259
FOS Post 275
unvote: goatrevolt, Vote: Mykonian Post 297
FOS: Goatrevolt Post 421
FOS'd Post 441
unvote: Mykonian <BR>Vote: Goatrevolt Post 486
Unvote: Goatrevolte, Vote: Beyond Birthday Post 544
unvote: Birthday <BR>vote: Goatrevolt Post 662
FOS: Mykonian Post 663
unvote: Goat Post 762
Vote: Mykonian Post 767
unvote: Mykonian <BR>Vote: Panzer Post 856
unvote: Panzer <BR>vote: Qwints Post 1002
unvote: Qwints <BR>Vote: Panzer Post 1052
unvote: panzer, vote: Mykonian Post 1067
unvote: Mykonian <BR>Vote: Beyond Birthday Post 1128
Unvote: Birthday <BR>Vote: Qwints Post 1155
HUGE FOS: Mykonian Post 1195

GIEFF

Vote: Dourgrim Post 54
FOS Panzerjager Post 96
unvote, Vote Panzerjager Post 105
FoS mykonian Post 193
FoS militant Post 244
Not a random vote, HoS Beyond_Birthday Post 305
Unvote, Vote Beyond_Birthday Post 398
Unvote, Vote Zilla Post 550
Confirm vote Zilla Post 581
unvote, vote qwints Post 608
unvote qwints Post 681
Vote: Beyond_Birthday Post 685
HoS springlullaby Post 722
unvote <BR>Vote Panzerjager Post 822
unvote, vote mykonian Post 953
unvote, vote qwints Post 1140
Vote: springlullaby Post 1266
Confirm vote: springlullaby Post 1268
HoS SensFan Post 1328

By Chronology

Post Number

Poster

Vote
Post 1

kloud1516

vote: kloud unvote
Post 19

Panzerjager

Vote:GIEFF
Post 20

Goatrevolt

Vote: Panzerjager
Post 24

mykonian

vote GIEFF
Post 25

militant

Vote ting =)
Post 26

ting =)

Vote: MacavityLock
Post 27

MacavityLock

Vote: Dourgrim
Post 28

Dourgrim

vote: Panzerjager
Post 29

subgenius

vote:Militant
Post 31

Beyond_Birthday

Vote mykonian
Post 33

Dourgrim

unvote: Panzerjager <BR><BR>vote: GIEFF
Post 36

Panzerjager

Unvote, Vote:Mykonian
Post 38

ting =)

unvote. Vote:Panzerjager
Post 39

springlullaby

Vote subgenius
Post 40

Dourgrim

FoS: springlullaby
Post 44

Panzerjager

FoS:Ting
Post 46

dejkha

FoS: Dourgrim
Post 47

MacavityLock

Unvote: Dour. Vote: Panzer
Post 54

GIEFF

Vote: Dourgrim
Post 55

mykonian

unvote vote GIEFF
Post 71

Beyond_Birthday

Unvotes
Post 77

Goatrevolt

Unvote, Vote MacavityLock
Post 80

Dourgrim

unvote: GIEFF
Post 95

Dourgrim

FoS: mykonian vote: Panzer
Post 96

GIEFF

FOS Panzerjager
Post 97

springlullaby

Vote djekha
Post 98

springlullaby

Unvote, vote djekha
Post 105

GIEFF

unvote Vote Panzerjager
Post 125

MacavityLock

Unvote
Post 137

mykonian

FoS GIEFF and Dourgrim
Post 158

Panzerjager

Unvote: Vote:Springlullaby
Post 167

subgenius

FoS: Panzer
Post 170

subgenius

unvote <BR>vote: Panzerjager
Post 193

GIEFF

FoS mykonian
Post 217

Dourgrim

FoS: GIEFF
Post 219

Dourgrim

unvote: Panzerjager <BR><BR>vote: GIEFF
Post 225

Panzerjager

FoS:Gieff
Post 234

Beyond_Birthday

Unvote
Post 241

mykonian

vote Beyond_birthday. <BR><BR>FoS GIEFF
Post 244

GIEFF

FoS militant
Post 251

mykonian

unvote vote Beyond_birthday
Post 259

Zilla

Vote: Goatrevolt
Post 265

Panzerjager

Unvote: Vote: Beyong_Birthday Unvote: Vote:Zilla FoS:Beying Birthday
Post 270

springlullaby

Unvote
Post 275

Zilla

FOS
Post 279

militant

Unvote
Post 285

Goatrevolt

Unvote, Vote Beyond_Birthday
Post 296

Panzerjager

Unvote:Zilla Unvote: Vote: Beyond Birthday
Post 297

Zilla

unvote: goatrevolt Vote: Mykonian
Post 298

Panzerjager

Unvote. Vote:Zilla
Post 305

GIEFF

Not a random vote HoS Beyond_Birthday
Post 312

mykonian

unvote vote GIEFF
Post 384

Beyond_Birthday

Vote Zilla
Post 398

GIEFF

Unvote Vote Beyond_Birthday
Post 400

Dourgrim

unvote: GIEFF <BR><BR>FoS: GIEFF vote: Beyond_Birthday HUGE FoS's: ting =) and qwints slightly smaller but still pretty big FoS: springlullaby
Post 414

mykonian

unvote
Post 421

Zilla

FOS: Goatrevolt
Post 433

Panzerjager

Unvote, Vote:Beyond_Birthday
Post 441

Zilla

FOS'd
Post 442

Dourgrim

medium-sized FoS: subgenius
Post 445

Dourgrim

unvote: BB <BR><BR>vote: Panzer
Post 486

Zilla

unvote: Mykonian <BR>Vote: Goatrevolt
Post 517

qwints

vote Beyond_Birthday
Post 524

Goatrevolt

FoS Zilla
Post 544

Zilla

Unvote: Goatrevolte Vote: Beyond Birthday
Post 550

GIEFF

Unvote Vote Zilla
Post 551

Goatrevolt

Unvote, Vote Zilla
Post 562

militant

Vote Zilla
Post 579

mykonian

vote GIEFF
Post 581

GIEFF

Confirm vote Zilla
Post 608

GIEFF

unvote vote qwints
Post 623

Panzerjager

Unvote:Vote:Zilla.
Post 625

Dourgrim

unvote
Post 640

Dourgrim

vote: Zilla
Post 662

Zilla

unvote: Birthday <BR>vote: Goatrevolt
Post 663

Zilla

FOS: Mykonian
Post 681

GIEFF

unvote qwints
Post 685

GIEFF

Vote: Beyond_Birthday
Post 691

Dourgrim

unvote: Zilla <BR><BR>vote: Panzerjager
Post 704

qwints

FOS: Zilla
Post 705

militant

Unvote
Post 722

GIEFF

HoS springlullaby
Post 725

mykonian

unvote vote Spring
Post 753

springlullaby

Vote Beyond_Birthday <BR>
Post 762

Zilla

unvote: Goat
Post 767

Zilla

Vote: Mykonian
Post 801

Dourgrim

unvote: Panzer <BR><BR>vote: Zilla <BR><BR>vote: end the damn day
Post 803

mykonian

unvote vote GIEFF
Post 806

mykonian

unvote Vote Panzerjager
Post 815

springlullaby

Unvote Vote Panzer
Post 818

Panzerjager

Huge FoS:GIEFF
Post 822

GIEFF

unvote <BR>Vote Panzerjager
Post 842

mykonian

unvote <BR>Vote Panzerjager
Post 856

Zilla

unvote: Mykonian <BR>Vote: Panzer
Post 860

qwints

unvote, vote Panzer
Post 875

mykonian

unvote
Post 885

mykonian

vote qwints
Post 897

Goatrevolt

FoS Qwints Unvote
Post 953

GIEFF

unvote vote mykonian
Post 982

ting =)

unvote.
Post 1002

Zilla

unvote: Panzer <BR>vote: Qwints
Post 1020

militant

Vote Panzer
Post 1021

Dourgrim

unvote: Zilla <BR><BR>vote: Panzer
Post 1033

Goatrevolt

Vote Beyond Birthday
Post 1038

Panzerjager

Unvote: Zilla Vote:Qwints
Post 1046

Panzerjager

Unvote: Vote:Zilla
Post 1052

Zilla

unvote: Qwints <BR>Vote: Panzer
Post 1066

mykonian

vote BB
Post 1067

Zilla

unvote: panzer vote: Mykonian
Post 1087

Panzerjager

Unvote: Vote:Qwints
Post 1123

SensFan

Unvote
Post 1128

Zilla

unvote: Mykonian <BR>Vote: Beyond Birthday
Post 1136

springlullaby

Unvote
Post 1138

qwints

unvote
Post 1140

GIEFF

unvote vote qwints
Post 1155

Zilla

Unvote: Birthday <BR>Vote: Qwints
Post 1165

Dourgrim

unvote
Post 1168

Goatrevolt

Unvote
Post 1182

Goatrevolt

Vote Qwints
Post 1190

mykonian

unvote
Post 1195

Zilla

HUGE FOS: Mykonian
Post 1198

Beyond_Birthday

Vote Qwints
Post 1210

Dourgrim

vote: qwints
Post 1222

Beyond_Birthday

Unvote; Vote Qwints
Post 1231

springlullaby

Vote: BB
Post 1246

mykonian

unvote vote Qwints
Post 1266

GIEFF

Vote: springlullaby
Post 1268

GIEFF

Confirm vote: springlullaby
Post 1279

Panzerjager

Vote:Springlullaby
Post 1293

Beyond_Birthday

Vote Zilla
Post 1297

Panzerjager

Unvote: Vote:Zilla
Post 1299

Beyond_Birthday

Vote Zilla
Post 1322

mykonian

vote zilla
Post 1323

Dourgrim

vote: Zilla
Post 1326

SensFan

Vote: Zilla
Post 1328

GIEFF

HoS SensFan
Post 1345

SensFan

Unvote

[GIEFF]

[mrow][col]Posts[col]Votes[col]Posts/VotePanzerjager[col]102[col]16[col]6.4Goatrevolt[col]151[col]9[col]16.8mykonian[col]231[col]18[col]12.8militant[col]26[col]5[col]5.2ting =)[col]26[col]3[col]8.7qwints[col]34[col]7[col]4.9Dourgrim[col]103[col]18[col]5.7SensFan[col]43[col]6[col]7.2Beyond_Birthday[col]67[col]8[col]8.4springlullaby[col]50[col]8[col]6.3Zilla[col]175[col]19[col]9.2GIEFF[col]305[col]19[col]16.1

[GIEFF]

The "votes" are just every post with a bold unvote, fos, or vote in it, so if people unvote in a separate post, it will count as another vote.

These numbers account for ALL posters in that "character", so SensFan's 43 posts include 18 by subgenius and 25 by SensFan.

[GIEFF]

Ease up on the personal attacks guys, that gets us nowhere, as fun as it is.

[GIEFF]

All is forgiven, Sensfan. That was pretty awesome. And I will no longer bring up mykionian (or Panzer's) "slips" of Zilla/dejkha as town.


spring's qwints connection. She demanded I provide my reasoning, and once I provided it, she ignored it.

And there is a connection to Zilla/dejkha, too.

In post 270, spring unvoted dejkha, because Zilla replaced him. Goat asked why replacement warrants reset, and spring said she would answer after she has seen more from Zilla.

And she did not vote again until Post 753, almost 500 posts later, and still has not exlpained why replacement warranted reset. And this vote for BB almost 500 posts after her unvote of dejkha was because BB suspected Zilla. Chainsaw goes BBBBRBRRRRZRZZZRRZRZTTTTT.

spring has contributed very lightly to our scumhunting efforts. She made the post on dejkha early on, made the above-mentioned post voting for BB, and then a post voting for Panzer because he said he wasn't going to read posts, even though he had already said this four times.


Who do you suspect now, spring?

[GIEFF]

Also, it is scum-tastic that spring found B_B's refusal to claim scummy, yet had no mention of Zilla doing this, even though it was a LOT more obvious.

[GIEFF]

Sens, how certain were you that Zilla was scum?

And why?

[GIEFF]

Can you tell us why you unvoted dejkha? And why you have done so little scumhunting?

[GIEFF]

vote springlullaby

[GIEFF]

Please paste the rest of your notes now, Sensfan.

[GIEFF]

Unvote SL

We should wait for Panzer's results before doing anything rash.

[GIEFF]

I've answered the first question once already.

Please answer it again. I don't see where you answered it. Why did Zilla replacing dejkha warrant an unvote?

Why did you say it was scummy when B_B refused to claim, but did not mention Zilla's refusal to do so?

[GIEFF]

I asked why you unvoted dejkha, and the reason you gave was based on behavior Zilla did after this unvote.

At the time you unvoted dejkha, why did you do it? And why didn't you answer when Goat asked you the same question back then?

[GIEFF]

Why would you not put your cop results in your first post, Panzer?

[GIEFF]

I am not attacking Panzer, I'm wondering why he's making us wait so long to hear his results. It's pissing me off.


And I agree with Xtoxm that even an innocent-result is not necessarily inno - the probability of an investigation-immune mafia (or sk) is high.


But I would like to hear why Panzer hasn't told us his result, and why he wants everybody to unvote SL.

[GIEFF]

Spring, it does no good to call people dumb. If you don't like the case, then defend yourself. If you can't be bothered to play this game, then ask for replacement.


myko's deputy claim would explain why he immediately assumed Panzer was a legit doc, and was so upset when goat suggested that maybe we don't have a doc. I believe his claim.


The fact that Sensfan feels he should be cleared lends credence to the bus-theory. If he is town, and only 75% sure Zilla was scum, then we would be down TWO townies if you were wrong, as he would almost surely have been lynched today. You are not clear by any means. It would be dumb for scum to bus their roleblocker, unless the final scum didn't have to worry about the cop (i.e. is investigation-immune).


Is it possible there is a 2-person scum team, and SL is a serial killer? To test this, I think we should tell SL to no-kill tonight, as sk's usually HAVE to kill each night, right?


I would like to claim last, so that the scum who fake-claims before me will have to guess a role that I am not.

[GIEFF]

I think Sens, BB, Dour for Cop Vig and Lynch.

Sens should not be copped, as if he is scum, he is almost surely investigation-immune, or else he would not have bussed the roleblocker so casually.

[GIEFF]

As SK, SL could have realized she would have to claim vig, and targeted Panzer, knowing the kill wouldn't go through. Not likely, but possible.

And the fact that there was no nightkill makes it very likely that mafia targeted Panzer, which detracts from the investigation-immune theory - why would mafia target someone who is likely to be protected and who can't hurt you with his power role?

[GIEFF]

BB, do you know if each mafia would show up as visiting their night kill? If you track scum-person A, and scum-person B is the one who PM's the mod, will scum-person A also show up as visiting the nightkill target?

[GIEFF]

Yes, I confirm Beyond's report - I am vanilla townie.

Although I don't know why B_B assumes I am town rather than scum who just never left his house. I should not be at 0%.

[GIEFF]

SL is FAR from confirmed.

[GIEFF]

I disagree - I think it is possible to have a framer, RB, and godfather, if we really do have a doc, cop, deputy, vig, AND tracker.

And serial killer is more likely than godfather.

And your sanity is not confirmed, either.


I think vig is the most likely, but she is by no means confirmed.

[GIEFF]

SL, why did you shoot ting?

[GIEFF]

Vote Panzerjager

Because it's fun.

[GIEFF]

Xtoxm, how am I cleared fully? Why are you and B_B both overlooking the possibility that I am scum who just didn't do the night-killing, and so didn't show up on the tracker report?

----

I shouldn't have dropped questioning Dourgrim the B_B/Zilla WIFOM thing just because he was getting so upset about it and accusing me of nitpicking. Here is where we left it:

You voted B_B. B_B presented WIFOM for Zilla. You felt this WIFOM was enough of a deterrent to either a B_B or Zilla lynch that you decided to focus on other leads that you yourself were more involved in creating, and that did not contain this degree of WIFOM. Therefore, you settled on Panzer being the best lynch choice for the day, and soon unvoted B_B to vote for Panzer.

According to Dourgrim, if B_B came up town, we would immediately lynch Zilla, and so we should table B_B/Zilla entirely. This has the dual benefit of not getting Zilla lynched due to B_B flipping town, and not lynching Zilla directly.

Dourgrim tried hard to link me to a Panzer lynch(who is almost certainly town), and de-link himself from Panzer:

If panzer flipped town, what do you think it'd say about myko and why? If he flipped scum? If myko flipped town/scum - panzer?

I'm not sure I'm entirely comfortable answering this in the thread for all to see. If we were to lynch Panzer or myko, it could be later misconstrued as me trying to lead the Town, and I'm not trying to do that at all. However, Panzer and myko pretty clearly linked themselves early on in this game, agreed? And, although I don't think links are foolproof ways of finding scum, they can be crucial at times and should be pursued when the case against the lynched and the link are both strong enough. In this case I believe both of those criteria to be applicable. Make sense?

And, just to be clear, I don't think it's just the other of that duo that we'll learn quite a bit about. GIEFF, BB, and others also weighed in heavily on this, and it could very well speak volumes to their intentions as well...

especially GIEFF and his uber-focused case on Panzer.

It is clear Dourgrim does not want it to look like he is leading the town if the result is a Panzer-lynch.


Here is what Dourgrim said about our two dead-scum:

Post 691:

Zilla: Goat's case against Zilla is solid. However, I initially got a Town read off of her when she first replaced into the game, and that shouldn't be completely ignored. While I agree that she's a good lynch candidate because of Goat's case, Panzer is still better.

qwints: I understand the case made against him since he joined the game, and it makes sense to an extent, but I don't have a very strong feeling about it one way or the other, and I did have something of a Town read on MacavityLock before qwints replaced in. Meh.

Translation: "I agree witht he cases, but I disagree with the lynches"

This is a knee-jerk reaction to the thread as of late: Zilla/Goatrevolt = GIEFF/Dourgrim. Both seem to be pairs of players whose play styles seem to clash, and although Goat's case on Zilla is still solid, the whole debate seems to be breaking down into "You lied!" "No, YOU lied!" stuff, and neither one seems to be convincing too many people in the thread that their case is airtight. Any of this sound familiar, GIEFF? Wink

My stance on Panzer hasn't changed, and his bullshit "I refuse to post until Zilla claims" crap makes me very happy with my vote on him, whether the rest of the Town sees him as a valid lynch target or not at the moment.

Translation: "Let's steer this ship from Zilla to Panzer."

No, you haven't caught scum. You THINK you have, and your case is fairly compelling, but don't even bother trying to misrepresent your opinion as fact, especially when it seems apparent that you can't even convince the majority of the Town that you're right.

Your conviction as to Zilla's scumminess is starting to make you look more than a little bit arrogant, Goat, and I think it's pushing people away. I still think you're pro-Town, but you really need to stop tunnelling.

Translation: "Back off my buddy."

Goatrevolt wrote:
Dour: I'm not acting on anything that requires knowledge of Zilla's alignment. Though I may think you a scum buddy, I'm not acting on it until I get confirmation of her alignment. For the record, there's nothing wrong with me saying "If Zilla is scum, I think the rest of the scum come from this pool of 4 players" even if there aren't that many total scum in the game. I can only vote one person at a time, so it doesn't matter if I have 6 plausible scum in a 12 player game, as long as I am pursuing who I think is most likely to be scum.

This is a fair point. However, what I was trying to get at is that you've lumped about half the game together with Zilla at varying points, which doesn't lend lots of creedence to your current theory (me and qwints). Of course, I believe your theory even less than the rest of the game because I know I'm Town, but that's neither here nor there (as pretty much any sane Mafia player would say the same thing).

Translation: "Holy shit, Goatrevolt found our entire scumteam. I better discredit him. We should probably night-kill him, too. "

Did I see earlier in the thread that I'm being linked to Zilla now? Is this because I said above that I believed Zilla to probably be Town? I did say that, but I'd be a liar if I said that my opinion hasn't changed since Goat/GIEFF's analysis of Zilla's case. The most telling part for me is Zilla's vote for Goat while BB is supposedly her top suspect. That makes no sense at all. The vote switch later is "too little too late" IMHO.

Translation: "Better distance if Zilla gets lynched. Can't have us being linked!"

[GIEFF]

ting was "pumped full of lead," i.e. shot. That matches a vig more than an SK.

I have reasons for suspecting SL as SK, but flavor is not among them.

I would prefer, in order, a mykonian lynch, and then a Dourgrim lynch. How common is a deputy in a mini normal?

[GIEFF]

I thought it scummy that mykonian instantly assumed Panzer to be town.


Possible town-explanation: mykonian is the deputy (this explanation did not exist before)

Possible scum-explanation: mykonian KNOWS Panzer is town, because mykonian is scum.


I went through 5 finished mini normal games, and found 1 Framer role, 1 Nurse role (backup doc), and no deputy roles. The fact that there was a nurse makes me think deputy is at least possible, though.


If I were lynching based solely on role-claims and PR-reports, it would be Dourgrim, but I think mykonian is scummier than Dourgrim.

[GIEFF]

Here is my plan for if dourgrim flips town:

Night actions

spring shoots Sensfan.
Panzer investigates mykonian.
B_B tracks Xtoxm (to test doc claim).
Xtoxm flips a coin to protect Panzer or B_B.
I assume maf will kill Xtoxm - if not, things get a lot more complicated.

Following day

1. If Sensfan does not get shot, we lynch spring.
2. If Sensfan flips scum (and we haven't won yet), we lynch spring. This would leave B_B (tracker), Panzer (cop), GIEFF (townie), and mykonian (deputy). Likely one kill that night (probably me), and mykonian would be the best lynch choice in lylo.
   
3. If Panzer gets a guilty on mykonian, we lynch mykonian. If we haven't won yet, lynch spring in lylo.
   
4. If Sensfan is town and mykonian comes up inno, we lynch spring. If we haven't won yet, Panzer investigates B_B, B_B tracks mykonian, and we will have to choose between godfather-mykonian or faketracker-B_B.

Does that make sense?

[GIEFF]

I feel it is optimal for maf to kill Xtoxm, and if they do not, things become easier. If Xtoxm really coin-flips (and really is doc), maf can't take the 50% chance that their kill doesn't go through at all.



If we kill Dourgrim AND maf manages to get around Xtoxm-doc to kill Panzer or B_B, then:

If Xtoxm is maf, he would kill B_B, as B_B will be tracking him (and would, conveniently, have no doc protection).
If Xtoxm is doc, then B_B's report will verify that.

Actually, now that I think about it, Xtoxm should be on B_B with more like 90% odds. If B_B dies, we know Xtoxm is fake. If B_B lives, he can confirm Xtoxm as doc, and maybe even get caught as a fake-tracker if Xtoxm didn't really save B_B. If we set it up this way, then if Xtoxm and B_B are both town and visiting each other, the night-kill would likely be Panzer, as he is probably the most clear out of all of us.

If Sens flipped town, then it would be SL and mykonian, and a difficult choice for the lynch. This is the worst possible situation for the town, I think - Dourgrim and Sens BOTH being town, and Panzer getting NK'd.

[GIEFF]

B_B's reports successfully reported tracks on 2 vanilla townies; without any possible buddies left, that is not easy to fake. I believe him a lot more than I do Xtoxm or mykonian. Xtoxm could easily have NK'd to set up a doc claim, and mykonian is mykonian.

[GIEFF]

It makes sense to lynch the person more likely to be scum, so we have that information during the night-phase, right? Doesn't B_B's report mean Dourgrim is more likely scum than Sensfan?

[GIEFF]

I think Dourgrim should be it.

If Dourgrim flips maf, should SL still shoot Sens?

[GIEFF]

And I do NOT think the day is ready to end. There is no rush.

[GIEFF]

B_B and Xtoxm, do you agree with the plan where B_B tracks Xtoxm 100% and Xtoxm docs B_B 90%?

And Panzer, do you agree with the investigation of mykonian?

[GIEFF]

There is not a kill-immune GF. I would prefer to lynch (rather than vig) maf in case SL is the SK and decides to go rogue. Or in case SL is the vig and decides to go rogue.

[GIEFF]

I still don't get why B_B thinks that a no-visit result clears anyone. Isn't it true that just one scum actually goes out and does the killing, and so only one scum can be tracked?

[GIEFF]

SL, you were very condescending to Sens earlier, so I understand why he is upset. When you play that antagonistically, some people will be able to contain themselves better than others; this can't be the first time somebody blew up at you, if your play in this game is typical.

You are not a dumbass, though, and Sensfan crossed the line that you were skirting.

Send to corner for timeout to think about what he has done: Sensfan

[GIEFF]

Remove from timeout: SensFan

I echo Dourgrim's plea to stop being assholes. Especially you, B_B. Poopface.


I'd like to hear from B_B and Panzer that they agree with the plan before we lynch Dour. If you are town, thanks for the sacrifice, Dour. Why wouldn't you prefer to lynch Sens, though, for the same reason he prefers to lynch you?

[GIEFF]

I think we should let SL choose who to vig, as it is her neck on the line if her kill doesn't go through. If she is the SK, this aligns her interests with the town's.


Definitely do not self-vote.

[GIEFF]

SL will have a binary choice; either we lynch Dour (and she kills Sens), or we lynch Sens (and she kills Dour).

[GIEFF]

SL will have a binary choice; either we lynch Dour (and she kills Sens), or we lynch Sens (and she kills Dour).

So she has NO choice in the matter.

She is worried that you are trying to manipulate the kill because she is afraid you are NK-immune. Her choice will be which of you to lynch and which of you to NK.

[GIEFF]

No, I think she's equally scummy, which is quite. I agree with B_B that his means that she should shoot mykonian and we should lynch Dourgrim.

[GIEFF]

B_B's report clears Sensfan almost fully - the only way Sens could be mafia is if he no-killed, right? I don't know why scum would do that. Therefore, mykonian is more likely to be scum than Sens, and should be the lynch- or vig-target.

[GIEFF]

You claim that reading into flavor is a "shit case," but then rely on the flavor of a report on SensFan as your reasoning to want him lynched and me "vigged" instead of vice versa.

This is an excellent point.

Don't worry, Dourgrim - I don't think the town can lose this one, and I agree that SL is likely to be scum. But if so, let's at least force her to use her kill in a pro-town way.

Her antagonism is meant to upset you and stop you thinking logically, so don't let it.

[GIEFF]

SL, are you OK with shooting mykonian instead of Sensfan?

[GIEFF]

SL shooting SL does us no good. We'll likely lynch her tomorrow anyway. Better to shoo mykonian.

[GIEFF]

Assuming Dourgrim is the lynch, here is who wants SL to target the following:

Night-kill mykonian: GIEFF, B_B, Panzer
Night-kill SL: Sensfan
Night-kill Sensfan: SL

Is that right? Dourgrim, mykonian, and Xtoxm - who do you want SL to night-kill?

[GIEFF]

That is "voting" for your night-kill.

I want you to kill mykonian, as do Panzer and B_B:

Actually...SL should shoot mykonian.

Lynch: Dourgrim; shoot Mykonian.

[GIEFF]

I see your point, mykonian. Her power role is useless after tonight anyways, and yours may not be. And if we lynch her, we cannot also kill Dourgrim; her shooting herself allows us to kill 2 people.


Consider my vote switched to SL shooting herself.

If that happened, then tonight, B_B can track Xtoxm, and Panzer can investigate mykonian. Me and Sens would be the other two still alive going into the night phase.

Xtoxm should protect B_B 100%, as if Xtoxm is scum, he can't try to kill B_B, or he would implicate himself, and can't kill another, as B_B is tracking him. This assures our most valuable PR (assuming invest-immune is more likely than tracker-immune) will be alive tomorrow.



If Panzer is mafia, he will probably kill Xtoxm. He can't fake a guilty report, as we will still have a mislynch (5 players left), so he would clear mykonian (who would be clear with Panzer report no matter Panzer's alignment). We would then lynch Sens or me, and that would leave an ambiguous 3-way lylo.

If Xtoxm is mafia, he will no-kill. A no-kill doesn't necessarily mean Xtoxm is mafia, but Xtoxm cannot kill with this PR plan, unless he is tracker-immune.

If B_B is mafia, he will probably kill Xtoxm, although he could kill Panzer. Killing Panzer wouldn't make a lot of sense, because mykonian would become the cop, and could get off an investigation of B_B that night due to Xtoxm-protection. And if B_B is investigation-immune, he will probably kill Xtoxm or Sens.

If mykonian is mafia, he will kill Panzer. B_B will clear Xtoxm, and he already has semi-clears on me and Sens, so mykonian will be lynched (and if we are somehow wrong, we will have an ambiguous 3-way lylo). If mykonian is investigation-immune, he will probably kill Xtoxm, and then B_B the following night, but I think he would get lynched before two of either me, Sens, or Panzer do.

If Sens is mafia, he will probably kill Xtoxm or Panzer.


In order, I trust the following claims from most to least:

Panzer, BB, Xtoxm, mykonian, Sens.

I think the biggest flaw with the above plan is letting Sens-scum get away with a kill - is it worth having BB track Sens tonight instead of Xtoxm? B_B being scum would also make this plan pretty bad, but the odds that either Dourgrim, mykonian, or Xtoxm is scum dwarfs the chance that B_B is.

[GIEFF]

I don't believe you when you say it was on purpose, so the second point isn't all that strong.

I think B_B should still target Xtoxm, but I'd like to hear Panzer and B_B's thoughts, firstly on whether SL should kill herself, and if so, if B_B should switch to Sens.

[GIEFF]

Also, B_B's report on Sensfan came AFTER Zilla-RB was dead. Sens is 100% clear unless he no-killed last night, but I don't see why he would do that. So really more like 80% clear.

B_B, why did you track Sensfan last night?


I would be 50% cleared (as there were probably 2 scum alive at the time I was tracked visiting nobody), but the fact that Zilla is RB means that I would probably be the one to do the killing, so I am probably more like 75% cleared.

[GIEFF]

What reason does SensScum have to lie about it?

That is a very silly question. SensScum can later say things like this to earn townie points:

You are dumb to vote without explanation.

I guess I was also dumb to hammer Zilla without expla-oh wait...

Why were the claimed Vig and claimed Doc removed, but the guy who bluntly hammered Scum out of nowhere still on the list?

Sorry, but how the fuck are you guys confirmed?
And if you're killing unconfirmed people,

why start with the one that hammered Scum out of nowhere?

I'm really not seeing the case to have me lynched/vig'd.

*I hammered the ScumRB point-blank

*I was tracked and found to do nothing, when the (presumably) only other Scum was a RB

For me to be Scum, the following both need to be true:
*SensScum did not make the kill when it was him and ZillaRB alive

*SensScum blatantly and prematurely hammered ZillaBuddy, not knowing if she would claim her way out of it

You actually would have earned these townie-points in my mind if you weren't so obviously trying to squeeze every last bit of townie out of it. I think you accidentally hammered Zilla, and lied about it. I can see both town- and scum-motivations for doing so.



But most crucial now is B_B and Panzer's input on if they agree SL should self-shoot, and if they think it makes more sense for B_B to track Sens than to track Xtoxm.

I'm also curious to hear what SL thinks about the self-vig plan.

[GIEFF]

SensScum knows Zilla will flip Scum, though, and so is much better off claiming its intentional right off the bat.

Obviously, if you claimed you knew Zilla was scum right off the bat, then we would KNOW it was a bus. Saying "I am lynching Zilla right now, even though GIEFF is asking people to wait"

And the only reason I've been bringing it up over and over again is when people start saying that I should be lynched today

This is not helping your defense. Lynch-avoidance is scum's main goal, and townie's secondary goal. Trying to avoid a lynch by cashing in town-points you earned by lying does not make you any more likely to be town.


Can you explain why you were so sure Zilla was scum? When I asked you before, all you said was "gut." When did your gut kick in? Were you 75% sure Zilla was scum early in the day? Did you purposefully wait to vote her, planning out a quickhammer in advance? Did you really think that claiming your hammer was accidental would be enough to avoid getting lynched the next day if Zilla flipped town?

[GIEFF]

When did your gut kick in? Were you 75% sure Zilla was scum early in the day? Did you purposefully wait to vote her, planning out a quickhammer in advance? Did you really think that claiming your hammer was accidental would be enough to avoid getting lynched the next day if Zilla flipped town?

[GIEFF]

Was it during your intial read of the thread, when she first started posting? Or was it after qwints flipped scum?

[GIEFF]

Was it during your intial read of the thread, when she first started posting? Or was it after qwints flipped scum?

Combination of the two.

Two more you still haven't answered, Sens:

Did you purposefully wait to vote her, planning out a quickhammer in advance? Did you really think that claiming your hammer was accidental would be enough to avoid getting lynched the next day if Zilla flipped town?

------------------

I guess SL killing Myk is fine. Don't see him as scum though. No point is asking her to self kill. We'll lynch her tomorrow if the game isn't over.

If we're going to automatically lynch her anyway, why not just have her vig herself? That way, we save mykonian if he is a power role, and have the option of choosing for ourselves then with no information, instead of choosing now, and hoping SL actually goes along with it.


This also avoids the possibility of mykonian or Sens being NK-immune, which may be the case, or which spring may claim happened and try to wriggle her way out of a lynch.

[GIEFF]

If we are going to lynch SL no matter what tomorrow, how is that any different from her shooting herself?

If SL shoots mykonian, we are making that decision now, but if SL shoots herself, then we have the ability to lynch mykonian (or another) tomorrow, when both Zilla and Dourgrim's alignments are known. I would rather make the decision on the third kill with as much information as possible, and SL self-shooting allows us to do that.

[GIEFF]

This isn't about SL, this is about the town. From SL's point of view, shooting herself is bad, even if she is vig, as she would not have the chance to hit scum. You are proposing lynching her NO MATTER WHAT tomorrow, which is effectively the same as her lynching herself, but it provides more flexibility. Do you see the point I am making? If SL refuses to shoot herself, we can just lynch her today.

[GIEFF]

EBWOP in bold:

This isn't about SL, this is about the town. From SL's point of view, shooting herself is bad, even if she is vig, as she would not have the chance to shoot scum. However, you are proposing lynching her NO MATTER WHAT tomorrow, which is effectively the same as her

shooting

herself, but it provides more flexibility. Do you see the point I am making? If SL refuses to shoot herself, we can just lynch her today.

[GIEFF]

Do realize that if I were scum I wouldn't even argue this with you lot as I would just nod to whatever, then do whatever I want afterwards anyway.

Not true. If you were scum, you would try to convince us to change our minds, because if you just did whatever you wanted afterwards anyway, you'd get lynched. We have two non-lylo lynches, and one of them has your name on it, no matter what happens.


The town is going to make three kills before lylo; Sens, Dourgrim, and SL. Why do you care if you get shot by yourself or lynched by the town tomorrow, SL? Your kill isn't wasted, as it frees up tomorrow's lynch, which would instead be wasted on you. One person's kill for the entire town's lynch (with a lot more information to go off of based on reports and the alignment of Dour and SL), is an excellent trade.

[GIEFF]

Also, spring, what if you do hit a NK-immune target? Isn't it better to kill that person with a lynch? You say you are worried about the NK-immune problem, but shooting yourself and allowing us to kill the other two via lynches solves this problem completely.

[GIEFF]

[quote="The Mod, IN THE DEATH SCENE YOU JUST LINKED ABOVE

Another had been killed by the elusive threat to Merrin, but ting=) was not the only victim that night.
This ONE sentence says that ting=) was a victim of the elusive threat to Merrin. Is that really so hard to see?
[/quote]

SL will not live until the end-game, nor will she be lynched today. There is no point in debating her scumminess right now.

[GIEFF]

SL, I hope you were talking to Dour and not me. Do you see why shooting yourself is best for the town as a whole, and why it is NOT wasting a town-kill? And how it avoids the NK-immune problem you claim to be trying to avoid?

[GIEFF]

No Gieff. We're not lynching her today so we can use her kill to eliminate an extra person.

I am NOT saying that we lynch SL today. We lynch Dour today, and SL shoots herself tonight, which frees up our lynch for tomorrow.

We are not wasting any kills, we know SL is not NK-immune, and if she fails to kill herself, she is obv-scum, and we lynch her anyway.

A potential problem is that if SL-as-SK realizes she can't win, and so decides to screw the town by coordinating with a final mafia in twilight. But if you say we're just going to lynch her tomorrow no matter what anyway, SL-as-SK already realizes she cant' win, so this is moot.

NO.

It matters because I know 100% that I'm not scum, so it is idiotic to ask me to kill myself.

It matters because wasting my kill on the off chance there is 4 man scum group.

It matters because I BLOODY KNOW I M NOT SCUM. SO IT IS JUST BLOODY STUPID TO ASK ME TO KILL MYSELF.

It is not idiotic. It wastes your kill, but it frees up a lynch. As I said, the town's lynch tomorrow is worth a lot more than your kill tonight, both because we can control it, and because we will have more information to make a decision.

Do you understand the point I am making?

[GIEFF]

Xtoxm, tell me what the difference is between SL shooting herself followed by the town lynching Player A and SL shooting player A, followed by the town lynching SL. Even better, tell me why the second is better than the first.

Here are two reasons why I think the first is better than the second. Either explain why you disagree, or come up with reasons why your strategy is better.

1. It avoids the possibility that SL is the actual vig, tries to kill a NK-immune, and we lynch her for this, keeping the NK-immune alive.
   
2. It allows us to make the decision on the third town-kill with information from B_B's tracker report, Panzer's cop report, spring's alignment, and Dourgrim's alignment. If we decide who spring should NK right now, we don't get to use any of that information to make that decision.

[GIEFF]

Why would the cop investigate the vig? He already did, and got an "innocent."

[GIEFF]

The point is that B_B's plan is not optimal, because it has Panzer re-checking spring. That's a waste of a PR.

[GIEFF]

Xtoxm, tell me what the difference is between SL shooting herself followed by the town lynching Player A and SL shooting player A, followed by the town lynching SL. Even better, tell me why the second is better than the first.

Here are two reasons why I think the first is better than the second. Either explain why you disagree, or come up with reasons why your strategy is better.

1. It avoids the possibility that SL is the actual vig, tries to kill a NK-immune, and we lynch her for this, keeping the NK-immune alive.
   
2. It allows us to make the decision on the third town-kill with information from B_B's tracker report, Panzer's cop report, spring's alignment, and Dourgrim's alignment. If we decide who spring should NK right now, we don't get to use any of that information to make that decision.

Waiting, Xtoxm.

And waiting for B_B to come up with a plan that doesn't involve the cop investigating the same person twice.

[GIEFF]

1) This is a game. Please try to act in a respectful manner towards everyone.

Very first rule, SL. Knock it off.

[GIEFF]

Panz, there's no point playing on the assumption SL will shoot herself. Do me or BB.

Would you please answer my question, and explain why you refuse to see why SL shooting herself is the best possible plan?

[GIEFF]

Behind-the-back ^5

[GIEFF]

If Dour/Sens are lynched/shot by SL tonight, we are going to lynch SL no matter what tomorrow, right? To avoid a SK-maf lylo endgame?

[GIEFF]

This makes absolutely no sense, Xtoxm. If SL dies tomorrow anyway, why not just have her die tonight? It confirms her as vig, and let's us make the choice for the third kill with a LOT more information than we have now. It ALSO avoids the possibility of SL fake-claiming someone is NK-immune, or someon ACTUALLY being NK-immune.

This plan isn't just a little bit better, it's a lot better, and is SL was town, she'd realize that.

And I don't know why you are being so stubborn.

[GIEFF]

It has NOT been established that she is not killing herself. You and SL have just said that you refuse to consider it, even though it is the best plan. You do not get to establish things for the town - we discuss them, and come to consensus.

I explained to SL why it was NOT wasting her kill, as it freed up the town's lynch tomorrow, which is more likely to go through (no NK-immune problems), and which will be better-informed (due to using information from tonight). SL has not responded.

[GIEFF]

If SL refuses to agree to do what is best for the town, she should get lynched today.

[GIEFF]

can SL say that herself?

If I refuse to agree to do what is best for the town, I should get lynched today.

[GIEFF]

No, because using her kill is better than lynching her today.

Anyway, the solution here is for SL to lie and say she's going to kill herself.

If she is SK, and knows she will get lynched tomorrow no matter what, what possible incentive would she have to kill who the town tells her to kill?

[GIEFF]

B_B, you said that if SL kills mykonian, that clears her? How?

springlullaby Vigilante (Odds of SK: 50%)

Also, in the possibility where the tracker dies, you talk about the vig being potentially cleared by the cop. Once again, the vig was already investigated by the cop. The result was innocent. I feel this has no bearing on whether or not SL is SK or vig.


And as Xtoxm said, we have to lynch SL tomorrow no matter what. Any plan that allows a possible SK to live to the endgame is not a good one.


-----
springlullaby shooting herself is the correct play here, and until she explains to me why it is not:

unvote

vote: springlullaby

[GIEFF]

mykonian, do you get to investigate the same night the cop dies? Or do you have to wait until the next night?

[GIEFF]

Do our PR's know who to follow? Be sure not to be on the same people.

[GIEFF]

We are all confuzzled, and all have different plans. SL hasn't confirmed that she will actually shoot herself. B_B keeps wanting Panzer to re-investigate SL, and to re-track me or Sens. I think as long as B_B and Panzer are both on different people, and on people they haven't been on before, we should be fine.

As soon as SL, B_B, and Panzer confirm that they know what to do tonight, I'll hammer.

[GIEFF]

Thanks, SL.

Panzer and B_B: Results?

[GIEFF]

Unless there is a 4-man scumteam and B_B is on it, we've got this one. I've been railing against mykonian as scum all game, and would probably have lynched mykonian without any PR results. I will vote when I hear Panzer's results.

[GIEFF]

Woohoo!

Nicely done SL and Dourgrim - your sacrifices are appreciated.

Vote: Dukakis

[GIEFF]

What do you mean you fell on a bench, B_B?

And why did you revolt against the plan?

[GIEFF]

http://images.chron.com/blogs/txpotomac ... 20tank.jpg

That is Dukakis.

I'm pissed I didn't get a vote in.

[GIEFF]

Gieff, They game did not start and because Kloud has to say day begins. So it was still pregame. Also it was Simultaneuos to your /confirm.

Also Mykonian, We should ALL want to lynch mafia.

Unvote, Vote:Mykonian

For not wanting to lynch mafia. I'm pretty sure this is a huge scum slip.

Yeah, this is pretty awesome.

[GIEFF]

Thanks mykonian, appreciate it. I was getting frustrated at you not understanding me, and wasn't sure whether to chalk it up to the language barrier or you being scum and purposefully trying to make things confusing. Glad to see it was the latter.

[GIEFF]

Yeah, the cop-doc power is broken completely by a mafia roleblocker, and even more so by the framer. We just happened to lynch those two roles the first 2 days.

[GIEFF]

This was the most fun game I've played on this site so far. Thanks everyone, and thanks kloud for modding so well (and for not mod-killing me).


Hopefully you believe me now that the "Dourscum" thing was 100% accidental, Dourgrim.