Mini 749 - Antarctic Mafia [Game Over]

[JereIC]

Mizz, you can quote a single post by hitting the "Quote" button in the upper right-hand corner of the post. You can also quote posts by writing this:

Code: Select all

[quote="<Person's Name>"]
<Thing person wrote.>
[/quote]

Replacing <Person's Name> and <Thing person wrote.> with their name and what their wrote. Keep the quotation marks next to <Person's Name>, though. Be sure to preview your post before posting it (there should be a little "Preview" button near the "Submit" button), as quote tags are really easy to mess up.

Drake, I agree with your read on ZEEnon, but I'm not sure why you find DDD scummy when Nuwen is using basically the same arguments. Could you point out what exactly made DDD's post scummy and Nuwen's posts not? Is the fact that he's jumping votes while Nuwen is just backing up her original vote with a serious argument?

No, please don't kill me, Mr. Ghostface, I wanna be in the sequel!

ZEEnon - 4 (Nuwen, Mizz.Mafia, Light-kun, Debonair Danny DiPietro)
Nuwen - 2 (Amished, ZEEnon)
Fishythefish - 2 (JereIC, pacman281292)
DraketheFake - 1 (na85)
na85 - 1 (Fishythefish)
Debonair Danny DiPietro - 2 (DraketheFake, freeko)

12 alive, 7 to lynch.

-Mod

[Fishythefish]

I think it is important that we don't get too fixated on the issue that has arisen. I think, as others do, that ZEEnon overreacted to the RVS, but currently I don't really find either that overreaction or Nuwen's attack all that scummy. It seems overwhelmingly likely we are about to get into a horrible tunnelled town vs town episode.
Incidentally, my impression was that the baddies wouldn't be penguins. It was the word "predators" that did it.

[freeko]

++ everyone has a reason of why they vote. i voted because u voted for me first, and it was just kept that way. mmkay ;]

That would be known as OMGUS, as in Oh My God U Suck.

... so dont assume that me and nuwen are mafia scums just because we voted on YOU.

That would be the circular argument of WIFOM, that really leads nowhere.

Neither of theese things are inherently town or scum plays as far as I care, they are essentially equally worthless for the most part. Though they do have uses at some points.

Seems like a slip

Here is an applcation of WIFOM. This could only be a slip if you had inforation to know that it was infact either a slip or not a slip. There is no posted vanilla claim so you cannot know if you are a penguin or not unless your role says as much. This could be the beginning symptoms of "perfect information syndrome" as well, where the scum have all the information of their rooles and can share that amongst themselves.

I am more weary of those who attempt to point out a slip this early in the game than those who potentially made the slip. im gonna be watching you, drake. I think it is you who may have made the slip by pointing ourt that someone ekse had made a slip.

unvote

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Unvote

Vote: ZEEnon

Let's not be too hasty about this though, but I'm with Nuwen that ZEE's aneurysm about random votes is crazy suspicious. Especially when it happened he was sitting at L-4 at the time, well outside the range of a reasonable scum bandwagon,

so let's see how he reacts at L-2 when the pressure is real and not just imagined.

This is a

textbook[/b] scum-hop. Like, I think I may have read this exact post elsewhere. ZEE's "aneurysm" about random votes is not "crazy" suspicious; it's at most mildly suspicious, and in the case where the target becomes hyper defensive and starts posting blocks of text I think it's probably more likely a flustered townie. The part I bolded is particularly troublesome, because it implies some illusory connection between the way someone acts under pressure and the number of votes they have on them. You already know how ZEEnon is going to react under pressure: he flipped out when there were three obvious joke votes and almost gave up on the game. If you find it suspicious, you find it suspicious, but your referendum about how it's a "pressure vote" combined with your comically overblown emotional language make it far more likely to me that you're scum that ZEEnon is.

Unvote, Vote: Debonair Danny DiPietro

(Even if most penguins are quite dashing.)

No, it's pretty damn suspicious; it might not be right, it might not even be a scumtell, but it is crazy suspicious whichever way it pans out.

To an extent I agree with you, I've seen plenty of terrible play and so far it's universaly been terrible town play. The three or four times I've seen the "resignation to death" type lines it's been by newbtown (though it should be noted this post of ZEE's comes after my vote and thus didn't influence my opinion). Of course then he immediatly renigs on his surrender and post a big wall o' text.

In this wall o' text he evidences a bizarre contempt for the RVS and then uses Nuwen's simple picture of where the random votes were placed as some sort of compelling evidence against her. Hint: It's not. Furthermore, his attempt to draw tenous links between scum partners at this stage of the game is hilarious because there's no where near enough evidence to do such a thing.

And finally, you're thinking far too linearly. Sure it puts more pressure on ZEE, but it also puts more pressure on the rest of the town.

If

we lynch ZEE and

if

he flips scum then perhaps someone flying in on his behalf is a scum partner;

if

he flips town then the people finishing off the wagon need a longer look. Votes are the most useful tool the town has and we shouldn't be afraid to use them.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Furthermore, I agree with freeko about DtF's slip bits.

[na85]

after reading through the game, i've decided not to give up on this game. i will not need to be replaced as i'd like to finish this game until i am killed by Nuwen and his partners. get ready, it's time for ZEEnon's

EXPLANATION TIME

! the only interaction i've had with DraketheFake is me asking him a question about why he thought finding scum would be easy, which is an innocent question. there is NOTHING wrong about that. moving on, my next post asks him to explain why he thinks that i am mafia. if someone votes for you with a lack of reasoning, would you not ask them why they voted for you. or perhaps you would let their vote slide, viewing it as a minor misconception. next post of mine, i point out that one of his reasons for voting me is not logical because it is 'circle reasoning'. next he asks me if we are playing a questions only game, and i answer promptly, showing him a post of mine that was not in the form of a question, which he neglected to see. then he tries to get a claim out of me very early on in the game. my post says that i will not reveal who i am to him. my next post shows my irritation to all of your digustingly horrible reasoning for ALL of your votes. i understand that during the random voting stage, you are doing just that, random voting. but do any of you ever think that perhaps, you might.. oh i don't know, be helping the mafia come closer to their goal? they can easily hop on the wagon, and if they EVER HAVE TO JUSTIFY their actions, they can say that it was RANDOM, and that they were following everyone else. nobody can view that as suspicious, since the other people that voted me all contributed to the fact. that is my PBPA. (post-by-post-analysis)

FURTHERMORE, later on Nuwen comes back after giving little reasoning besides his little penguin picture to start listing things already posted by others. if someone votes me at the beginning with no justification, of course i am going to question their judgement. whether town or mafia is voted for, i'm sure either of them would ask you why you voted for them. if i were to vote you, the reader, right now for no reason at all, would you ignore it ? i clearly have no reason to do so, and IF it was ME that did that, it would be easily seen as trying to pass the blame or heat to someone else. Nuwen also exaggerates my intial post by saying that i was making one random vote 'more weighty than another'. of course it is more weighty to me, since it's on ME. are you blind? why would it not be more weighty to me? and i was not even treating it as more weighty anyways. i was clearly asking DraketheFake to explain why he did so, but he responded with some silly statement. later on, he makes some forum outside of the game to see what people that react to the RVS tend to be usually, town or mafia. that is just horrible in my eyes. i view him as a misguided townsperson right now, because sadly, i don't pick up any vibes off him. Nuwen, however, i am positive is scum. i swear, if some retarded newbies come and hammer me, check him out. it's so obvious, i can't even describe to you. also Nuwen, i did not react to you with an OMGUS. you voted me far early in the game, so i am OBVIOUSLY not voting you for the sole reason that you voted me. about DrakeTheFake's random votes, they are yes, random. but they do not have any explanation whatsoever. the votes on ME, however, have explanations although not being sensible ones. in the second part of your post in post 90, i find yet another scumtell from you. you manipulate my words, changing them to say what you want. no where do i say that there is absolutely no reason to vote in the RVS as a pro-town player. i said that scum benefit from random voting, i didn't say that town-aligned players shouldn't participate. it helps us find possible scum as well. for part three in post 90, i see not point to that first sentence besides to distract my eyes, so i'll ignore it. anyways, i never said anything about being close to lynch territory, i just stated that the reasons for voting me were unjustified. i apologize for having you all read this block of text, i'm just venting off my feelings on the game so far. Nuwen for Mafia. it's going to be a little harder to find the other(s) though . (this summary is by no means trying to get everyone to convert to my views. if you agree with what i have said, you agree. if you don't you can lynch me, but know that Nuwen is DEFINITE scum after i flip penguin)

Impenetrable wall of text is impenetrable.

The only relevant info I got from this is that ZEEnon needs to lighten up. It's the internet for Christ's sake.

[DraketheFake]

I think it is you who may have made the slip by pointing ourt that someone ekse had made a slip.

Well, I think it is

YOU

who may have made the slip by pointing out that

I

may have made a slip by pointing out that

someone else

may have have made a slip.

And around and around it goes.

Drake, I agree with your read on ZEEnon, but I'm not sure why you find DDD scummy when Nuwen is using basically the same arguments.

Because I believe Nuwen is making them is good faith. He directs questions at ZEEnon about his behavior and asks for clarification. DDD's post smacks of trying to strike while the iron's hot, and his shift from "This is suspicious" to "Nevermind this is really a pressure vote" is bullshit.

***WE INTERRUPT THIS POST TO BRING YOU BREAKING NEWS!!!***

Furthermore, I agree with freeko about DtF's slip bits.

Ahahahahahaha, of course you do.

I've seen plenty of terrible play and so far it's universaly been terrible town play.

Glass houses etc.

If

we lynch ZEE and

if

he flips scum then perhaps someone flying in on his behalf is a scum partner; if he flips town then the people finishing off the wagon need a longer look. Votes are the most useful tool the town has and we shouldn't be afraid to use them.

We should not be afraid to use them

correctly

. Those things you posted are true of any wagon, and they certainly don't amount to "putting more pressure on the town."

[na85]

Drake, I agree with your read on ZEEnon, but I'm not sure why you find DDD scummy when Nuwen is using basically the same arguments. Could you point out what exactly made DDD's post scummy and Nuwen's posts not? Is the fact that he's jumping votes while Nuwen is just backing up her original vote with a serious argument?

DDD's vote was opportunistic and there is no real reason to push zeenon to L-2 when the explosion we witnessed was a clear indication that he already feels the pressure is real.

IMO Nuwen's case is different because she backed up her opinions with sound logic and she did it first (i.e. no opportunity to say "Yeah I like that argument, let's go with it").

[Amished]

I also disagree with DDD's analysis of the rest of the towns play. Criticizing us for bad play in the RVS when I found it to be very clearly extremely hilarious. As long as we don't lynch somebody in the RVS, most play there (here, though we're moving .. on UP! To the East side! I've finally got... sorry, it's a catchy tune ) can't be critiqued as bad.

As others have pointed out as well, to my eyes, putting a "pressure vote" while already seeing that they were under enough pressure is unnecessary, and while not out of bounds (what is?), it doesn't seem like sound and/or townie play.

About the whole "slip" thing, I'm leaning more towards DtF's side. Initially I saw the same "slip" that he commented on, as I also assumed right off the bat that the good guys were penguins, and the scum were... something else that could be confused as penguins? Thinking it over, I considered that scum could just be different types of penguins, so I dismissed both points of view as I could logically see both ways of thinking at a time.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

DDD's post smacks of trying to strike while the iron's hot, and his shift from "This is suspicious" to "Nevermind this is really a pressure vote" is bullshit.

So now you're flat out lying because there was no shift. Let's take a look at what I said in that first post...

Let's not be too hasty about this though, but I'm with Nuwen that

ZEE's aneurysm about random votes is crazy suspicious.

Especially when it happened he was sitting at L-4 at the time, well outside the range of a reasonable scum bandwagon,

so let's see how he reacts at L-2 when the pressure is real and not just imagined.

All in a single post, hence no shift, hence you're lying or at least willfully misrepresenting my position. Liars deserve special attention.

I've seen plenty of terrible play and so far it's universally been terrible town play.

Glass houses etc.

1) Those in glass houses should not throw stones.
2) I'm indicting someone for terrible play.
3) Drake is therefore insinuating my play is terrible.
4) Via my syllogism which he quoted to use

accepting it as fact

because otherwise his jab doesn’t work; terrible play is town play.
5) Therefore I am town.

Thanks for clearing me, Drake. A bit odd that you're voting for a player you just helped prove town though.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I also disagree with DDD's analysis of the rest of the towns play. Criticizing us for bad play in the RVS when I found it to be very clearly extremely hilarious. As long as we don't lynch somebody in the RVS, most play there (here, though we're moving .. on UP! To the East side! I've finally got... sorry, it's a catchy tune ) can't be critiqued as bad.

I never criticized the town for bad RVS play... I quite enjoyed this town's RVS phase. I'm not sure where you're getting this from...

[DraketheFake]

All in a single post, hence no shift, hence you're lying or at least willfully misrepresenting my position. Liars deserve special attention.

You're, uh, pretty dense if you think a shift within a single post isn't possible. You led with a legitimate reason and closed on an illegitimate one, giving greater credence to the second reason.

A bit odd that you're voting for a player you just helped prove town though.

Pot kettle etc.

(I knew I should have gone with "Those who live in scum houses." Jerk.)

[DraketheFake]

I also disagree with DDD's analysis of the rest of the towns play. Criticizing us for bad play in the RVS when I found it to be very clearly extremely hilarious. As long as we don't lynch somebody in the RVS, most play there (here, though we're moving .. on UP! To the East side! I've finally got... sorry, it's a catchy tune ) can't be critiqued as bad.

I never criticized the town for bad RVS play... I quite enjoyed this town's RVS phase. I'm not sure where you're getting this from...

See, Amished's interpretation is how I was interpreting it, too.

But you're right, you said:

I've seen plenty of terrible play

and so far

it's universally been terrible town play.

If you miss the word order of those three words, you might come away with "I've seen plenty of terrible town

play so far

and it's universally etc." Which changes the whole meaning to a jab at the town. My glass houses comment is humbly with drawn.

(You're still scum.)

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

All in a single post, hence no shift, hence you're lying or at least willfully misrepresenting my position. Liars deserve special attention.

You're, uh, pretty dense if you think a shift within a single post isn't possible. You led with a legitimate reason and closed on an illegitimate one, giving greater credence to the second reason.

Shift in this context means change, as in my argument changed from A to B. However, it's plainly obvious that my argument has not changed from one to another, that I've made both points and stood behind both of them. Maybe you think I placed emphasis on the wrong argument, but my arguments did not shift as you continue to claim.

A bit odd that you're voting for a player you just helped prove town though.

Pot kettle etc.

(I knew I should have gone with "Those who live in scum houses." Jerk.)

Still haven't refuted my contentions there.

[DraketheFake]

You led with a legitimate reason and closed on an illegitimate one, giving greater credence to the second reason.

And before you jump all over me for this, let me clarify that by "legitimate" I mean "hypothetically legitimate," and by illegitimate I mean "illegitimate as it applies to this situation."

By which I mean I don't think that pressure votes are always illegitimate and I do think that in this case your analysis of typically "terrible town behavior" clashes with your decision to vote for him the point of near-schizophrenia.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I've seen plenty of terrible play

and so far

it's universally been terrible town play.

If you miss the word order of those three words, you might come away with "I've seen plenty of terrible town

play so far

and it's universally etc." Which changes the whole meaning to a jab at the town. My glass houses comment is humbly with drawn.

(You're still scum.)

I see now, my statement was a comment from watching and playing in several other games where really terrible play was basically a town-tell and not at all an indictment of this game other than ZEE's play.

(You're still wrong.)

[freeko]

Well, I think it is YOU who may have made the slip by pointing out that I may have made a slip by pointing out that someone else may have have made a slip.

Of course I realize that it is circular logic, and therefore dismissed for now as a footnote to look back upon. If any new information later in the game comes about, then this statement will be worth evaluating again.

Another footnote that was made was the post right below mine. Again, its most likely circular logic, but something reeks about this post. I never like it when anyone does it, to anyones posts. For me its one of the greatest scumtells in the game. The offer up exactly 0 relevant content while avoiding a prod for lurking/inactivity and also fail to heap any immediate suspicion on themselves. I have seen this play in games before and that player has always been a scum.

I now feel obligated to

vote: DDDiPietro

because I get the feeling that you are trying to avoid suspicion and not have any relevant opinion of your own by just simply agreeing with what someone else, in this case me, said.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Another footnote that was made was the post right below mine. Again, its most likely circular logic, but something reeks about this post. I never like it when anyone does it, to anyones posts. For me its one of the greatest scumtells in the game. The offer up exactly 0 relevant content while avoiding a prod for lurking/inactivity and also fail to heap any immediate suspicion on themselves. I have seen this play in games before and that player has always been a scum.

Considering all the posting I've done today this doesn't exactly look like an accurate criticism at this point when you look at the whole of the game instead of focusing on a single data point.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

EBWOP: What kind of idiot screws up quote tags. (See below for same post as above, this time with proper tags).

Another footnote that was made was the post right below mine. Again, its most likely circular logic, but something reeks about this post. I never like it when anyone does it, to anyones posts. For me its one of the greatest scumtells in the game. The offer up exactly 0 relevant content while avoiding a prod for lurking/inactivity and also fail to heap any immediate suspicion on themselves. I have seen this play in games before and that player has always been a scum.

Considering all the posting I've done today this doesn't exactly look like an accurate criticism at this point when you look at the whole of the game instead of focusing on a single data point.

[na85]

Off topic: This is my first Normal Mini game.

Since orangepenguin did not post any distribution of roles and/or sample role PMs in the beginning of the thread, am I right in assuming that we don't know the distribution of mafia members, cops, docs, and townies? Or is there some thread where "Normal" games are defined?

If it's the latter, could I have a link please? If it's the former, do we have to worry about stuff like masons in Normal games?

Please and thank you.

[Nuwen]

Walls of text are a disease.

I agree that ZEEnon's stream of mafia consciousness registers slightly higher as discomposed town rather than scrubby scum, but I haven't dismissed the possibility that he panicked as inexperienced scum. His early overreactions to Drake's initial vote also point towards a town read, rather than scum alarm creating by a growing wagon.

i understand that during the random voting stage, you are doing just that, random voting. but do any of you ever think that perhaps, you might.. oh i don't know, be helping the mafia come closer to their goal? they can easily hop on the wagon, and if they EVER HAVE TO JUSTIFY their actions, they can say that it was RANDOM, and that they were following everyone else.

When trying to splice the alignment of a vote, this is why voting patterns are just as important as stated reasons for voting. I draw pretty charts to map them out. Do you believe that scum

always

have to invent reasons for voting, and will

never

place a vote with completely pro-town logic? I'd be sad if Mafia were that easy.

If a wagon goes from zero to lynch just outside of the random voting stage, I would dance for joy. That's some easy scumhunting.

1) Those in glass houses should not throw stones.
2) I'm indicting someone for terrible play.
3) Drake is therefore insinuating my play is terrible.
4) Via my syllogism which he quoted to use accepting it as fact because otherwise his jab doesn’t work; terrible play is town play.
5) Therefore I am town.

Careful with linear logic, kids. Drake's comment snarkily called your play terrible and did nothing to prove your generalization that terrible play equals a terrible

town

player. This is an inverted strawman - you're attempting to prove the statement "I'm terrible, I'm town" after assuming "terrible play -> universally been terrible town play" is an axiom. The only truism here is "terrible play equals terrible play." Hinging DDD's statement on "so far" deconstructs the statement's endurance even further in practice - if terrible play is qualified as town-only play 'thus far,' WIFOM is established for any future terrible play. Great door to create.

I don't like this contrived attempt to prove alignment.

Since orangepenguin did not post any distribution of roles and/or sample role PMs in the beginning of the thread, am I right in assuming that we don't know the distribution of mafia members, cops, docs, and townies? Or is there some thread where "Normal" games are defined?

If it's the latter, could I have a link please? If it's the former, do we have to worry about stuff like masons in Normal games?

Masons are usually included in canon of "standard" mafia roles, roughly outlined here.

[na85]

Excellent, thank you Nuwen.

[freeko]

Considering all the posting I've done today this doesn't exactly look like an accurate criticism at this point when you look at the whole of the game instead of focusing on a single data point.

Im not sure if this is a good thing or a bad thing on your part. Activity by itself is pretty useless, its the content within that is relevant. and Nuwen makes an excellent point that you are quantifying your play thru Drake as being town because it is apparently terrible. I can agree that it is terrible. Though as Nuwen points out also, its a WIFOM point. Either set up for later use or for an immediate defense.

Though i do see how the single data point comes into play, I think you made the mistake that I used only your response to my post as the single data point. I used you as a whole as the single data point. Not just your response to the post I made. I was unhappy with your play up to that point and you were suspisicous to me, then you made what I think to be the scum play of trying to just make some content by buddying up to me and agreeing with my post while offering nothing on your own.

This makes more sense when you use your handy little chart that you make a few posts later. Explaining that your terrible play is just town play. As Nuwen points out (and better than I could) this is a pre-emptive WIFOM defense at best. Or a blatant scumtell at worst. Of course only time will tell which it is. If you are town, then I would try to not play so terribly in the future. Seems like a better way to go than to setup a WIFOM smoke screen for yourself that will inherently fool no one.

I really think you gotta go at this point. Your little I am town WIFOM play is just another nail in your coffin as I see it. For those who missed it post #109 will reveal all. For me you have made 2 mistakes. The first was just your attempt to buddy up to me by outright agreeing with my post. That is something I dont like, especially when no other perspective or narrative is given. Its totally worthless at that point. The second is the "I am terrible therefore I am town" WIFOM smoke screen you created with post #109.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

1) Those in glass houses should not throw stones.
2) I'm indicting someone for terrible play.
3) Drake is therefore insinuating my play is terrible.
4) Via my syllogism which he quoted to use accepting it as fact because otherwise his jab doesn't work; terrible play is town play.
5) Therefore I am town.

Careful with linear logic, kids. Drake's comment snarkily called your play terrible and did nothing to prove your generalization that terrible play equals a terrible

town

player. This is an inverted strawman - you're attempting to prove the statement "I'm terrible, I'm town" after assuming "terrible play -> universally been terrible town play" is an axiom. The only truism here is "terrible play equals terrible play." Hinging DDD's statement on "so far" deconstructs the statement's endurance even further in practice - if terrible play is qualified as town-only play 'thus far,' WIFOM is established for any future terrible play. Great door to create.

I don't like this contrived attempt to prove alignment.

I agree (there's that terrible scumtell again, freeko). It was utterly contrived because it was merely a way to throw Drake's

insult

back at him. I contend my play isn't terrible and thus the whole syllogism is a moot point anyways.

[freeko]

It was utterly contrived because it was merely a way to throw Drake's insult back at him. I contend my play isn't terrible and thus the whole syllogism is a moot point anyways.

WIFOM.. and more of it. You only seem to want to wrap yourself in a WIFOM web. Here you go again, irreguardless of your play being terrible in your eyes or not. It is the evaluation of others interpretation of your play that matters equally so.

I think the saying goes something like: Its a tangled web we weave, when it is the intent to deceive?

Though I do understand the intent to retort drake by trying to turn the insult back at him. Wouldnt a better play have been to just ignore it?