Mini 767: Cubic Mafia (Game Over!)

[Nocmen]

Thanks Rice. That was the most useful post ever. Then again, I'm bored and relatively useless in games until discussion picks up, and this talk between Noc, Magnus, and Isacc is about to put me to sleep with boredom.

I think the conversation is pretty relevant. Do you have any comments on it?

[magnus_orion]

hey, nocmen, how about you answer my questions!

unvote
vote: nocmen

Out of spite for not answering.

[Nocmen]

btw,

hos: nocmen

you were mentioning conclusions about isacc's post?

Also, Isacc, for the sake of clairty, which question are you referring to?

I didn't see that post.

As for conclusions, I was saying that his actions could imply that he is afraid of questions I'm asking, because it gives him more chances to slip up.

[Walnut]

I believe nocmen explained what the point was.

Really? I thought he said the point was to see how people answered, not to require them to answer in a specific manner.

The fact of the matter is that he named names when pressured.
Which means he had names, which means he had suspicions, which means he was dodging the question, which is how he reacted.

While still pointing out the impossibility of your question, he mentioned two "small scum reads". There is clearly a difference between "I have suspicions of people" and "I think people are scum." If you were being absolutely pedantic, he has still not answered the explicit question of "Who do you think is scum, and why?". My read of this is that you come out of it as more scummy than him, for attempting to force an argument that just isn't there. That said, you are getting a startling character reference:

even if Magnus did attack someone in that game, it probably would have been largely ignored

Magnus, do you consider this to be a true statement,? Whether you consider it true or not, do you consider BB justified in making it? What do you see as his purpose and the likely result of him saying it in this game?

Thanks Rice. That was the most useful post ever. Then again, I'm bored and relatively useless in games until discussion picks up, and this talk between Noc, Magnus, and Isacc is about to put me to sleep with boredom.

This bothers me, because it seems true of a lot of players, but is also an excuse for the scum to cruise through Day 1. How about saying something startling and waking yourself up?

Back to Magnus: I generally like Nocmen's play so far. I think it is realistic at this stage to want to engage people in conversation through asking them questions to draw them into conversation without expecting instant gratification in scumhunting. I don't agree so much with what he said about getting vote patterns from the RVS stage nor comparing reactions to questions in the RVS stage to reactions later in the game.

[Isacc]

btw,

hos: nocmen

you were mentioning conclusions about isacc's post?

Also, Isacc, for the sake of clairty, which question are you referring to?

I didn't see that post.

As for conclusions, I was saying that his actions could imply that he is afraid of questions I'm asking, because it gives him more chances to slip up.

I'd say this "conclusion" is pretty reachy, and not very well founded. I didn't make any condemnation of your questions, so there is no evidence for you to imply that I am at all afraid of your questioning.

[caf19]

caf19: That's nice and all, but at least 4 of us can vouch that Magnus is always this....eager. He expects the town to be magical and always direct, despite the impossibility of that happening right now.

While you may be right to bring this up, the dismissive tone of this excerpt worries me somewhat. "That's nice and all..." as if it was dumb of me to bring it up in the first place. You seem a bit eager to quell the points made against magnus.

Thanks Rice. That was the most useful post ever. Then again, I'm bored and relatively useless in games until discussion picks up, and this talk between Noc, Magnus, and Isacc is about to put me to sleep with boredom.

Again, I find the condescending tone to be unconducive to further discussion, and therefore anti-town. Also, I find your dismissal of the Noc/Magnus/Isacc issue to be exceptionable: it's a central part of the day's discussion so far. If you don't think it is heading anywhere productive, why not start some threads of discussion of your own instead of just crushing what is there?

I'll agree that RBT does need to give further opinions though. RBT: So, what scumtells from the random stage have you noticed?

Yes, I was expecting a straightforward answer, in order to see how he reacts to this questioning, to see if he's thrown off base. Dodging the question does not allow us to guage him later on in comparison, which he has suggested doing to the players. In other words, he is not only dodging the question, but avoiding us from getting reads on him, as a direct result of that which he has already helpfully explained to us. (unless, of course, he intends to form a trend of dodging questions, which is much more problematic in determining his allignment)

That said, once his dodging was indicated, he did answer the question, which brings up an issue of why he dodged in the first place, as it is still problematic since it sticks with the above.

I see. However, I can't agree that it was unreasonable to say that anyone could be scum at that stage, because it's pretty much true, anyone

could

be scum - I'd have given a similar answer. Am I to take from this that you don't think anyone could be scum, and you have narrowed it down to a certain group of people?

I note that your original question didn't ask Noc to give a few examples of scumtells, it said 'who do you think is scum and why' or words to that effect. This is a polarising way of phrasing the question, leaving him really with the 'all or nothing' option-set of either saying someone is scum or not. Having presented him with such a narrow set of options, I don't think you can complain when he opts to take the (more reasonable) middle ground by naming a couple of minor scumtells. Your case on Noc is not very strong, imo.

[Dourgrim]

Apologies. My birthday was Saturday, and I haven't logged on all weekend.

B_B is being condescending. I'm not sure why, but he is. caf19 is right; that is unconducive to Town discussion. Stop it.

[Riceballtail]

I'll do my analysis probably later today/tomorrow depending on the time I have available.

[magnus_orion]

Magnus, do you consider this to be a true statement,? Whether you consider it true or not, do you consider BB justified in making it? What do you see as his purpose and the likely result of him saying it in this game?

Well, err... I'd hope they'd listen to me.
I don't know, I supose I'm not good at convincing people, but fiding the scum is a different story. Generally, more people think I'm scum when I'm town, and call me obvtown when I'm scum, judging from the games I've been in. (Much to my amusement, of course).

That said, why ask these questions? High suspicion here. Looks like you're sizing me up to see how well you can convince people to mislynch me from my POV.

Am I to take from this that you don't think anyone could be scum, and you have narrowed it down to a certain group of people?

It's tentative at best, but I suspect walnut. You're also up in the air. If walnut turns out to be scum, I also suspect nocmen, but he's really the least suspicous, and completely dependent on walnut's flip at this stage. I reiterate, tentative at best.
See, its not so hard.

I note that your original question didn't ask Noc to give a few examples of scumtells, it said 'who do you think is scum and why' or words to that effect. This is a polarising way of phrasing the question, leaving him really with the 'all or nothing' option-set of either saying someone is scum or not. Having presented him with such a narrow set of options, I don't think you can complain when he opts to take the (more reasonable) middle ground by naming a couple of minor scumtells. Your case on Noc is not very strong, imo.

Lulz, what case? I don't have a case.
I never called nocmen scum.

I'm voting him so he answers what I have to say. I'd think that'd be obvious from the post I made.
speaking of which,

unvote

That said, your comments are interesting. I presented him with a narrow set of options? Would you rather I allowed him to include people not in the game? Do you consider there to be more options?

This bothers me, because it seems true of a lot of players, but is also an excuse for the scum to cruise through Day 1. How about saying something startling and waking yourself up?

Meta suggests BB lurks as scum, and acts indecisive. His play during this game has proven to be very different, so far.

That said, he clearly understands my playstyle, and may be trying to avoid me, but I don't think B_B would consider trying to convince me that he's town worth the risk of appearing scummy to others.

I think B_B is town, mostly because I was wrong last time I said that, and I said it for different reasons.

[Nocmen]

Magnus, do you consider this to be a true statement,? Whether you consider it true or not, do you consider BB justified in making it? What do you see as his purpose and the likely result of him saying it in this game?

Well, err... I'd hope they'd listen to me.
I don't know, I supose I'm not good at convincing people, but fiding the scum is a different story. Generally, more people think I'm scum when I'm town, and call me obvtown when I'm scum, judging from the games I've been in. (Much to my amusement, of course).

That said, why ask these questions? High suspicion here. Looks like you're sizing me up to see how well you can convince people to mislynch me from my POV.

Am I to take from this that you don't think anyone could be scum, and you have narrowed it down to a certain group of people?

It's tentative at best, but I suspect walnut. You're also up in the air. If walnut turns out to be scum, I also suspect nocmen, but he's really the least suspicous, and completely dependent on walnut's flip at this stage. I reiterate, tentative at best.
See, its not so hard.

I note that your original question didn't ask Noc to give a few examples of scumtells, it said 'who do you think is scum and why' or words to that effect. This is a polarising way of phrasing the question, leaving him really with the 'all or nothing' option-set of either saying someone is scum or not. Having presented him with such a narrow set of options, I don't think you can complain when he opts to take the (more reasonable) middle ground by naming a couple of minor scumtells. Your case on Noc is not very strong, imo.

Lulz, what case? I don't have a case.
I never called nocmen scum.

I'm voting him so he answers what I have to say. I'd think that'd be obvious from the post I made.
speaking of which,

unvote

That said, your comments are interesting. I presented him with a narrow set of options? Would you rather I allowed him to include people not in the game? Do you consider there to be more options?

This bothers me, because it seems true of a lot of players, but is also an excuse for the scum to cruise through Day 1. How about saying something startling and waking yourself up?

Meta suggests BB lurks as scum, and acts indecisive. His play during this game has proven to be very different, so far.

That said, he clearly understands my playstyle, and may be trying to avoid me, but I don't think B_B would consider trying to convince me that he's town worth the risk of appearing scummy to others.

I think B_B is town, mostly because I was wrong last time I said that, and I said it for different reasons.

So you think B_B is acting differently, even with the last post he's made? To me, his last post seems like hes just actively lurking, posting enough to make us see he is here, but not contributing to the game. However, that is only from that last post.
And you do realize that just because you were wrong last time doesn't mean anything regarding the outcome of this time, right?

[magnus_orion]

So you think B_B is acting differently, even with the last post he's made?

BB didn't active lurk, he just plain lurked.

And you do realize that just because you were wrong last time doesn't mean anything regarding the outcome of this time, right?

It means that what I thought back then made BB town is actually how he plays as scum, so the fact that he's playing differently suggests to me that he's town.

[Nocmen]

So you think B_B is acting differently, even with the last post he's made?

BB didn't active lurk, he just plain lurked.

And you do realize that just because you were wrong last time doesn't mean anything regarding the outcome of this time, right?

It means that what I thought back then made BB town is actually how he plays as scum, so the fact that he's playing differently suggests to me that he's town.

I'm okay with the differences, but why do you think he should be cleared from actively lurking? To me, that is still lurking.

[PhilyEc]

Well, err... I'd hope they'd listen to me.
I don't know, I supose I'm not good at convincing people

Gotta say, the nameless quotes arent helping anyone. Could you please name them? ><

[magnus_orion]

So you think B_B is acting differently, even with the last post he's made?

BB didn't active lurk, he just plain lurked.

And you do realize that just because you were wrong last time doesn't mean anything regarding the outcome of this time, right?

It means that what I thought back then made BB town is actually how he plays as scum, so the fact that he's playing differently suggests to me that he's town.

I'm okay with the differences, but why do you think he should be cleared from actively lurking? To me, that is still lurking.

Cleared!? He's a long way from that! "Suggests" is as weak as its meant to sound. In that game, he made extremely long analysis posts every so often, and they extensive, but few and far between.

Gotta say, the nameless quotes arent helping anyone. Could you please name them? ><

I'll try to remember, sorry if it made things harder for you.

[Kairyuu]

Prods going out to Southland and Trumpet of Doom.

Happy belated birthday Dourgrim!

[Trumpet of Doom]

/prodded.

Vote: RBT

. He knows why. If he doesn't...

(Dude, we should make a tradition of random-voting each other.)

Because you're stalking me, or because I have a habit of getting killed early?

I'm not

intentionally

stalking you...

at least 4 of us can vouch that Magnus is always this....eager.

3 of us. Remember, Magnus was dead by the time I replaced in, so I didn't bother to read him terribly in-depth. (Come to think of it, I'd guess RBT didn't either.)

How about saying something startling and waking yourself up?

From what I've heard, that tends to backfire and get you quicklynched.

RBT lurks as town (or he did in that URoE game that five of us were in at some point or another), and I don't know how he plays as scum. I guess I'll

unvote,

but I don't immediately see any better suspects.

[Beyond_Birthday]

Thanks Rice. That was the most useful post ever. Then again, I'm bored and relatively useless in games until discussion picks up, and this talk between Noc, Magnus, and Isacc is about to put me to sleep with boredom.

I think the conversation is pretty relevant. Do you have any comments on it?

No, which is why it bores me.

even if Magnus did attack someone in that game, it probably would have been largely ignored

Magnus, do you consider this to be a true statement,? Whether you consider it true or not, do you consider BB justified in making it? What do you see as his purpose and the likely result of him saying it in this game?

Thanks Rice. That was the most useful post ever. Then again, I'm bored and relatively useless in games until discussion picks up, and this talk between Noc, Magnus, and Isacc is about to put me to sleep with boredom.

This bothers me, because it seems true of a lot of players, but is also an excuse for the scum to cruise through Day 1. How about saying something startling and waking yourself up?

1. It was true for the situation last game. He guessed 2/3 scum correctly, but people didn't really take to his guesses much as they were not well substantiated (at least in my opinion.) And by "ignored," I suppose easily shrugged off and countered.

2. Meh, Rice did it in the game (with Mangus) I was referencing, where she just kept popping in with something of a "no opinion, BB's scum, bye." Indeed, last game I was scum, but she annoys me because she didn't substantiate either, but as she was insane cop, I really couldn't counter her and was dayvigged (by accident? I never did understand how his day investigation became dayvig.)

@Ca19 But, I have. I have found annoying people or pissing them off gets faster results. So, I did something obtrusive but not inherently scummy to move conversation to something I care to talk about.

On Magnus: VOILA!

Well, err... I'd hope they'd listen to me.
I don't know, I supose I'm not good at convincing people, but fiding the scum is a different story. Generally, more people think I'm scum when I'm town, and call me obvtown when I'm scum, judging from the games I've been in. (Much to my amusement, of course).

Ah, this is nice to be right.

That said, he clearly understands my playstyle, and may be trying to avoid me, but I don't think B_B would consider trying to convince me that he's town worth the risk of appearing scummy to others.

I think B_B is town, mostly because I was wrong last time I said that, and I said it for different reasons.

Ah, I love this kid. Not for calling me town, but because I feel special having a kind of meta. I typically avoid playing the same way twice, but my general approach to games are the same, alignment irrelevant.

So you think B_B is acting differently, even with the last post he's made? To me, his last post seems like hes just actively lurking, posting enough to make us see he is here, but not contributing to the game. However, that is only from that last post.
And you do realize that just because you were wrong last time doesn't mean anything regarding the outcome of this time, right?

Did you do a meta search on me, because your introductory clause sounds this way. I don't like you, +3%.

Also, gambler's fallacy doesn't apply to analysis of playstyle in judging scum.

And: In the last game, I didn't even post until page 5/6. So your point? I have been bored up to this point.

@Orion:

Meh, how do you think I'll play this game? If I play exactly the same way (once we're in the thick of it), would you think me scum?

@Trumpet: Your post is unhelpful. Stop copying me! *Grr*

[magnus_orion]

Meh, how do you think I'll play this game? If I play exactly the same way (once we're in the thick of it), would you think me scum?

If you play exactly (or generally, even) the same way, then its null, since I don't have town meta on you. But if you play different from my experience with you as scum, then it raises the probability that you're town.

How I think you'll play this game? I'd think you'd play it the same way, but with more frequent posts, as you'd be less worried about scumtells as town. Or possibly completely differently, still because you're less worried about scumtells.
(Of course, that assumes you're town to begin with. )

@Issac: Anything to say about anything?

[Walnut]

Magnus, do you consider this to be a true statement,? Whether you consider it true or not, do you consider BB justified in making it? What do you see as his purpose and the likely result of him saying it in this game?

Well, err... I'd hope they'd listen to me.
I don't know, I supose I'm not good at convincing people, but fiding the scum is a different story. Generally, more people think I'm scum when I'm town, and call me obvtown when I'm scum, judging from the games I've been in. (Much to my amusement, of course).
That said, why ask these questions? High suspicion here. Looks like you're sizing me up to see how well you can convince people to mislynch me from my POV.

I had a number of reasons for asking these questions, including:
1) Seeing how you responded to questions ;
2) From the way that you have started the game you have shown confidence in a method of direct questioning and drawing quick conclusions. I was interested to see if you were aware of how other players regarded this;
3) To see whether you thought BB was scum for saying what he did;
4) To have all players thinking about the situation.

What baffles me is that when I point out that BB is undermining your credibility (and, to use your words, potentially setting you up for a mislynch), you ignore the elements about BB and instead perceive it as me attacking you.

[Isacc]

@Magnus: Yes, I has stuff to say, but it'll have to wait until after school xD.

[caf19]

You're also up in the air.

Reasons would be nice.

Lulz, what case? I don't have a case.
I never called nocmen scum.

My, you do like to polarise things. Cases don't come simply in the form of stating "X is scum!" One might be tempted to think that the following posts...

Well, that's nice and all, but its another direct dodge of giving an actual answer to my question. I'm starting to notice a trend here.

Yes, I was expecting a straightforward answer, in order to see how he reacts to this questioning, to see if he's thrown off base. Dodging the question does not allow us to guage him later on in comparison, which he has suggested doing to the players. In other words, he is not only dodging the question, but avoiding us from getting reads on him, as a direct result of that which he has already helpfully explained to us. (unless, of course, he intends to form a trend of dodging questions, which is much more problematic in determining his allignment)

That said, once his dodging was indicated, he did answer the question, which brings up an issue of why he dodged in the first place, as it is still problematic since it sticks with the above.

btw,

hos: nocmen

you were mentioning conclusions about isacc's post?

hey, nocmen, how about you answer my questions!

unvote
vote: nocmen

Out of spite for not answering.

...might constitute a case, or as close to a case as it's possible to muster in the first 3 or 4 pages. You may have largely renounced your suspicions of Nocmen now, but from my point of view making my last post, he was clearly your top suspect at that point. Even though the vote may have been for pressure, it still indicates you found him suspicious enough to warrant pressuring.

That said, your comments are interesting. I presented him with a narrow set of options? Would you rather I allowed him to include people not in the game? Do you consider there to be more options?

You misunderstand. The narrow set of options you provided was when you asked Nocmen to say who he thought was scum. Not who had done anything suspicious at that early stage, but who was scum. You effectively gave Noc two options: say someone is scum on a very limited set of evidence, or not call anyone scum ('anybody could be scum') and incur your wrath for supposed question dodging. When he gave some minor suspicions, you criticised him for not doing that straight away, when in fact the reason for that was the initial phrasing didn't give him the option to do so.

@Ca19 But, I have. I have found annoying people or pissing them off gets faster results. So, I did something obtrusive but not inherently scummy to move conversation to something I care to talk about.

And, er, what would this subject be? The post this quotation comes from talks mostly about meta reads on yourself, which doesn't really amount to scumhunting. From your posts so far, I find it hard to tell who you find suspicious. Please enlighten me.

[Dourgrim]

Bah, I thought I was watching this topic... I'll reread today.

Thanks for the birthday wishes, Mod! Much appreciated.

[Riceballtail]

Well, I can't draw too much from what I see so far.

VOTE:Southland

Post please.

[Isacc]

Doing 2 take-home tests for Calculus BC and Statistics. Gonna have to give me until tomorrow to post. Sorry.

[PhilyEc]

You misunderstand. The narrow set of options you provided was when you asked Nocmen to say who he thought was scum. Not who had done anything suspicious at that early stage, but who was scum. You effectively gave Noc two options: say someone is scum on a very limited set of evidence, or not call anyone scum ('anybody could be scum') and incur your wrath for supposed question dodging. When he gave some minor suspicions, you criticised him for not doing that straight away, when in fact the reason for that was the initial phrasing didn't give him the option to do so

Magnus to me, is behaving like the typical eager hunter. Giving his suspects little room to manuver and stab them like hell the second they bleat something that could be misrepped as scummy. That said, scum do the exact same thing. I'm undecided for now.

Your earlier post makes me think of top suspects myself obviously scum will eat up any ideas I have at this point since its only speculation. Lets see things develop a bit more before we bring down the heavy duty artillery >:3