Newbie 791(Over)

[Spolium]

I signed up for this game as an SE, due to my two games. I think the way the newbie queue looks like now (1 IC, 1 SE, and 7 new guys) I might be like a mini IC? I don't know if I have the gonads to call myself that though.

Thanks, that's perhaps less confusing.

How about yourself. You're an IC so you have experience backing you up, what does that experience consist of? Besides all that, it looks like you might be the type that disdains random voting? I suppose it doesn't matter, since the only benefit from that stage is starting discussion, and questions like yours serve the same purpose. Just get to know you a bit, what are your feelings on the random stage of the game?

My experience consists of a couple of games on another forum and multiple games on this one (somewhere between 5 and 8 now, I haven't counted recently).

I've had mixed feelings about the Random Vote Stage for a while, but I'm leaning towards disdain more recently. While it's quite fun and is kind of a tradition, RVS activity can be a mess of potential distractions and is not exactly vital to early conversation. As such, I think we should get stuck in as soon as possible.

@Spoilum: I once ran a respectably-sized crime syndicate in southern Greece. Does that count?

That seems honest. You seem like an honest man.

Would you agree?

Why?

I have played Mafia a bunch with friends [..] I think it should be pretty fun!

Played it a couple dozen times outside of camp with some friends. [..] I hope it'll be a fun experience for me

Does anyone think the similarities here are relevant? Please explain your answer.

Immersed in several ongoing games at the moment here. Played in several games off-site a few years ago. Have designed a few games also.

Excellent, I hope you're having fun getting your teeth back into it. Which do you like being more, town or scum? Why?

[Mixologist]

I'm going to withhold an answer to that question on the basis that all of the games are ongoing.

[Spolium]

What about the several games you played off-site?

[Scien]

RVS activity can be a mess of potential distractions and is not exactly vital to early conversation.

Meh, only if it allowed to become so. I always considered it more of a tool to get to the 'get stuck in' phase. A problem with moving mafia into a pretty much anonymous media is that the beginning stages of the game are slow, and it is difficult to start a real discussion that generates information for the town to use. That should be purely what a RVS is used for. To get people to start talking, and then afterwords people can start analyzing the positions and views of others. The people who get caught up over analyzing the RVS and fall pray to the distractions that you are suggesting I would argue are trying to glean too much meaning from the stage.

Your questions serve a similar purpose, and that's why I am not giving you a hard time. However they seem to suffer from drawbacks of their own. First with limited content to ask about at game start, finding a good question is difficult.

Usually a question about game history, or role preferences is a good start and I have seen them before, but I would argue that those in themselves don't contribute much to the game. It really doesn't provide any info that the town can use later and more importantly I don't believe it dives deeply at all into a certain players mindset because the questions themselves don't have much to do with game at hand.

At least with a random voting stage votes are placed on players, and content starts flowing between players that is directed at the game.

Well all of that is my opinion.

What do you think? Do you think that after getting responses to game history questions and role preferences that you would have gained perspective on a certain players thought process in the current game? Or am I over analyzing the 'beginning questioning' stage of the game, and its only goal is to start people talking?

[Jack of Bombs]

That seems honest. You seem like an honest man.

Would you agree?

Why?

Honestly, I'm not really that honest. My ethics are generally pretty decent, but I'm prone to lying when it best serves my interests.

Incidentally, the above may be a lie.

@Spoilum:

From your experience, what do you consider to be the best way of getting quiet players/lurkers to contribute to a game? Any other non-newbies (e.g. Scien) can take a shot at answering that as well.

[Mixologist]

@Spoilum- Both. There are aspects of both sides I enjoy thoroughly.

@Jack- Ask them questions regarding certain situations. I honestly will do a random unvote and vote a lurker to see what kind of reaction I get.

Regarding the RVS, I've always found that the best way out is a shameless bandwagon.

[wake4me4life]

*Whistle*

Kind of quiet in here. I guess its just because of the holiday weekend.

While we wait for everyone to show up, I have some questions for people while we wait. Some with substance, most without >.<

Wake4me4life:
No random vote? Did you just not place one or do you prefer to not engage in any kind of random voting at day start?

Jack of Bombs:
Wow, never had heard about Herculaneum. I feel uneducated. I suppose Pompeii gets all the press though. What the heck is your avatar doing anyway?

Lockheart:
Yep, there seems to be a lot of Deathnote going around these days. I assume the quote you are talking about is his sig? Or did I miss something this early?

this is my first time playing a game on this site from the beginning. i was trying to get a feel for how things go from the jump.

[wake4me4life]

As for my experience i have replaced in two games on this site and experimented using different strategies. i play on another site often but those games last 3 or 4 days max as the deadlines run much quicker(days last 2-4hrs) like the marathons on this site.

[Lockheart]

I have played Mafia a bunch with friends [..] I think it should be pretty fun!

Played it a couple dozen times outside of camp with some friends. [..] I hope it'll be a fun experience for me

Does anyone think the similarities here are relevant? Please explain your answer.

I think Vesuvius just read my post then had something similar to say.

[Droideka_11]

Vote: Spolium

The fact he likes DeathNote makes him much too dangerous.

Anyways regarding my Mafia experience, I am currently in a couple games at Heaven Games *shamelessly advertises*. I haven't finished any though.

[Mixologist]

unvote

vote Lockheart

Why do you automatically assume that he is parroting you?

[Scien]

what do you consider to be the best way of getting quiet players/lurkers to contribute to a game?

Sadly in my limited experience the only way to get them involved is to force them to get involved. You either have to force their hands by applying pressure with questions or votes, or you have to force their hands by threatening their replacement. I would like to point out that I would think that we are hardly at that point yet, although I don't think you were suggesting that we are.

this is my first time playing a game on this site from the beginning. i was trying to get a feel for how things go from the jump.

Fair enough. Any insights so far? I know we are not very far into it, and there is not a lot of content yet but things are starting to heat up a bit. You have any observations or questions for people?

[Vesuvius]

@Lockheart - So, when two people say that they have fun playing mafia you assume that the second person is copying the first person? Hmmm.. If I had to guess, I would say everyone here enjoys the game.

As far as the random first round goes. It seems to me to be a necessary evil. As long as we can go through the first day quickly and get going with the game, I think it is fine. But like what has been mentioned earlier, the lurkers who take their time can slow the first round down.

However, I think it is okay if people don't comment a whole lot. In some cases, the very fact that someone is staying quiet can be very revealing about their role in the game. As long as they don't slow down the game a quiet person may be hiding something. It just depends.

[Scien]

I think I have to disagree with Vesuvius on a few points.

As long as we can go through the first day quickly [...]

It is never a good idea to rush through a day. The more discussion we have, the more content we can look at later when examining the people in the town. Limiting day length, and minimizing discussion are both strong tools of scum.

I think it is okay if people don't comment a whole lot. In some cases, the very fact that someone is staying quiet can be very revealing about their role in the game. As long as they don't slow down the game a quiet person may be hiding something.

Eh, maybe if they don't comment a whole lot, but I think that's different than lurking. I think a player still needs to contribute, and shouldn't just hide. Hiding hurts the town in a variety of ways. First its a form of limiting content, which I've already commented I think is bad. Second, it makes the town view the hider with suspicion. If you are quiet, the town will eventually suspect you of lurking and that will serve no one. It is always important to help scum hunt and contribute to the information the town can use to make a lynch decision. Be that either today, or in future days.

And if you are a townie you really have nothing to hide from the town. You certainly shouldn't be afraid of them. It is very possible to hide any role you have from the scum and continue helping the town scum hunt. You don't have to lurk to hide that information from scum.

Just out of curiousity, who do you think is lurking at the moment? Do you believe people are? Or are we just having this discussion to feel each other out?

So, when two people say that they have fun playing mafia you assume that the second person is copying the first person?

Why do you automatically assume that he is parroting you?

That's the second person to say that Lockheart is accusing someone of parroting. Are you guys talking about this quote or did I miss something?

I think Vesuvius just read my post then had something similar to say.

Thats a bit of a stretch in my opinion if that's the case. Or am I looking at the wrong post?

[Jack of Bombs]

@Mixologist/Scien

: Thanks for the answers. From the games I've read here, I understand the kind of negative effects that come from inactivity/a lack of discussion, so it's useful to have some idea of how to deal with it.

On a semi-related note:

Unvote

,

Vote: dramonic

The only player who hasn't posted anything since the game started, yet he's been posting in other games. This is better than a random vote, at least.

[Spolium]

Meh, only if it allowed to become so. I always considered it more of a tool to get to the 'get stuck in' phase. A problem with moving mafia into a pretty much anonymous media is that the beginning stages of the game are slow, and it is difficult to start a real discussion that generates information for the town to use. That should be purely what a RVS is used for. To get people to start talking, and then afterwords people can start analyzing the positions and views of others. [..] Your questions serve a similar purpose, and that's why I am not giving you a hard time. However they seem to suffer from drawbacks of their own. First with limited content to ask about at game start, finding a good question is difficult.

I don't think I explained myself very well. There's a reason that people refer to "breaking out" of the RVS - it is undesirable to remain there. This begs the question: if it's undesirable to remain there, why bother going there in the first place?

I do see what you're getting at, and at one time I'd have agreed with you, but ultimately conversation does not occur as a consequence of random votes - it happens

while

people random vote. The votes themselves do nothing but blur into serious votes.

A vote placed with intent will generate more relevant conversation (and thus do more good for the town) than random votes ever will.

What do you think? Do you think that after getting responses to game history questions and role preferences that you would have gained perspective on a certain players thought process in the current game?

Or am I over analyzing the 'beginning questioning' stage of the game, and its only goal is to start people talking?

The emboldened is correct, but I would also note that I have caught out scum before based on their claimed experience.

--

@Spoilum: From your experience, what do you consider to be the best way of getting quiet players/lurkers to contribute to a game? Any other non-newbies (e.g. Scien) can take a shot at answering that as well.

There's no "best" way, since different players react to different things. Pressure voting is the most common response to lurkers, but deliberately dropping scumtells to see who bites is another strategy which I've seen work. It's riskier, but the payoff is potentially greater.

--

Vote: Spolium

The fact he likes DeathNote makes him much too dangerous.

Is this a serious vote?

[hasdgfas]

Jack of Bombs (1) - Scien
dramonic (1) - Jack of Bombs
Droideka_11 (1) - Lockheart
Lockheart (1) - Mixologist
Spolium (1) - Droideka_11

Not Voting: Spolium, Vesuvius, dramonic, wake4me4life

Reminder: Deadline is June 15th.

[Vesuvius]

@Scien

- Your comments about not contributing are probably right. That is probably a difference between an in-person game and an on-line game. My previous comments probably revealed how new I am to the on-line mafia game.

The fact that I couldn't get my vote to be bold also proves how new I am at this as well. I had random voted for Jack of Bombs so I will try it again now. Sorry, Jack of bombs, but your nuclear-gun-arm is making me nervous.

Vote: Jack of Bombs

[Mixologist]

It's not an accusation, it's a question.

[Spolium]

@Vesuvius

- Why so eager to prove that you're new?

[Vesuvius]

@Vesuvius

- Why so eager to prove that you're new?

Not eager, just pointing out the obvious.

@Jack of Bombs

- Is that a very wise thing to say that you are not very honest? Are you giving us a warning of things to come?

[Scien]

If it's undesirable to remain there, why bother going there in the first place?

We see the same drawbacks then, but I still think it has its place. I would answer you question above by saying that there are benefits from using it as a begin game tool. The important thing is to not 'remain there'. It has its place, it starts discussion. You then you follow the discussion. Any real discussion is more meaningful than anything you can get out of RVS. Problems start occurring if people are silly enough to value RVS more than real discussion. Long way of saying it, but it is undesirable to remain there, but it doesn't mean that the process doesn't have benefits.

Conversation does not occur as a consequence of random votes - it happens while people random vote.

I kind of agree. Discussion is generated by people participating in the game. The only thing the votes have over questioning about history is that there might be pairing information that can be gleaned from voting patterns. However this information is vastly secondary to anything gained in discussion. I would say it could be used as supporting evidence towards endgame. However the fact that I like to play vanilla townie, and have played 2 games means less. Well, unless I say something more interesting while delivering that info to you.

The emboldened is correct, but I would also note that I have caught out scum before based on their claimed experience.

Fair enough, I'm thinking too much. I'll shut up now. Also I would love to know how you caught scum based on a history claim. Not saying it didn't happen, just saying it would be a new experience for me to see that.

[1] Your comments about not contributing are probably right. [...] [2] The fact that I couldn't get my vote to be bold also proves how new I am at this as well.

1) Meh, just my opinion although I am pretty strong headed about it. Keep in mind I'm fairly new too.
2) I would suggest previewing all posts you make. It looks like you are a quick learner, but that single step improved my post coding a bunch. I still mess up occasionally and the preview always helps me out.

[Jack of Bombs]

It's not an accusation, it's a question.

unvote

vote Lockheart

Why do you automatically assume that he is parroting you?

If it wasn't an accusation, why did it come attached with a seemingly non-random vote?

@Jack of Bombs

- Is that a very wise thing to say that you are not very honest? Are you giving us a warning of things to come?

Uh... does it really matter how honest I am? If I'm town, lying generally won't help me achieve my win condition. If I'm scum, I'll say and do whatever's necessary to win (to an extent, at least). I suspect most other players would say the same.

[Lockheart]

unvote

vote Lockheart

Why do you automatically assume that he is parroting you?

@Lockheart - So, when two people say that they have fun playing mafia you assume that the second person is copying the first person? Hmmm.. If I had to guess, I would say everyone here enjoys the game.

I'm not saying that he blatantly copied my post, but rather he had the same things to say as I did and because he had just read my post, his sentence structure came out quite similarly to mine.

deliberately dropping scumtells to see who bites is another strategy which I've seen work.

Interesting. Just what does that mean, though?

[Scien]

Uh... does it really matter how honest I am? If I'm town, lying generally won't help me achieve my win condition. If I'm scum, I'll say and do whatever's necessary to win (to an extent, at least). I suspect most other players would say the same.

I would say it does matter.

Two points about this conversation so far:

That seems honest. You seem like an honest man. Would you agree? Why?

Honestly, I'm not really that honest. My ethics are generally pretty decent, but I'm prone to lying when it best serves my interests. Incidentally, the above may be a lie.

Is that a very wise thing to say that you are not very honest? Are you giving us a warning of things to come?

If I am reading it right, Spolium started up with a pretty open ended general question (hey I see a trend heh). You answer with a pretty general answer, and it does make sense. However someone reading it critically might interpret that general tone to be an evasion to avoid talking about the game at hand. I think that's what Vesuvius might be chafing about, and its what I chafe about when I see general answers in general (this is one of the reasons I dislike open ended questions after some discussion is started).

I doubt that it was an evasion this early, especially since you really haven't said much people could criticizing you for being dishonest about. But indeed it does matter if you are honest or not, because as you have said a townie really doesn't have to be dishonest except in edge cases. If we do catch dishonesty coming from you in the future, that is a big clue as to your alignment.

As for the wisdom in telling us that you are dishonest when it suits your purpose? I don't see anything wrong with that. Like you said, that is pretty much what people have to do to play this game. It is a game of information after all.

---

So, after dumping my thoughts I want to ask some questions to the people involved.

Spolium:

While we are on the topic of experience, it would be most appreciated if everyone were to briefly describe their mafia experience in their next post.

@Spoilum: I once ran a respectably-sized crime syndicate in southern Greece. Does that count?

That seems honest. You seem like an honest man.

This kind of bothered me when I first read it, and I guess since we are revisiting the thread of thought, how did that answer seem honest? It seemed like an answer that was just pretty much intended as humor to me. Did you get additional information out of it that I missed? Or did this answer to your first question not matter to you, and you just wanted to follow it with another question? For some reason I am getting a feel that this last possibility is the case, and not being interested in answers people give to your questions is kind of scummy in my book.

What kind of answer were you expecting to receive from him on your latest question. I assume the question was just designed to get an answer from him in order to feel him out. What would your impression be if he flat out claimed he was always honest? How about if he claimed that he was rarely honest?

Jack of Bombs:
Just out of curiosity, it seems that you think that lying as pro-town player could occasionally serve as a pro-town move. Ignoring hiding a role, can you think of an example that that would be the case?