mini 814: OVER!

[MonkeyMan576]

The goal of this game is not to vote for yourself. It's to decipher and solve and find out who the scummiest people are.

Voting for yourself is anti-town. It's a stance I will always take because it is against the spirit of the game.

But voting himself stimulated discussion; stimulating discussion helps us find scum, so self-voting (in this situation) is pro-town.

Neither do I. Drawing attention to yourself could be used in a pro-town way and helpful in scumhunting later on.

Scumhunting is pro-town. Not scum-hunting is anti-town. It's pretty simple.

I'm suspicious of anyone who thinks self-voting is pro-town generally.

So by your rules, I should FoS everyone for random voting because it is not scumhunting, because doing anything other than scumhunting is anti-town, and FoS you because you wanted to play two truths and a lie, which is certainly not scumhunting.

And I'd like to re-emphasize something I said earlier:

Okay. People need to use ONE account to post in games. Please. It makes the game confusing for everyone in it, especially when looking back for post reviews and such. I don't even see the point of having multiple accounts on here, it makes no sense.

Also-also: I've 'prodded' DNW.

I wasn't suggesting the two truths and a lie to avoid scumhunting, merely trying to see what people would think of trying something other than random voting. However, getting the game out of the RVS by voting on yourself is certainly not good play.

[Henrz]

Not really, anything that works is good play I think.

[MonkeySudo]

Not really, anything that works is good play I think.

If you don't like the RVS, don't RV, don't vote for yourself.

[Henrz]

Stop using other accounts... Firstly, I never said I don't like the RVS we just needed to get out of it, and secondly what does the RVS got to do with voting myself?

[MonkeyMan576]

Stop using other accounts... Firstly, I never said I don't like the RVS we just needed to get out of it, and secondly what does the RVS got to do with voting myself?

The other account was an accident. As for the RV, Absolutely nothing, which is why it is scummy. We didn't need to get out of the RVS so badly that you needed to act like scum.

[Spinach]

Stop using other accounts... Firstly, I never said I don't like the RVS we just needed to get out of it, and secondly what does the RVS got to do with voting myself?

The other account was an accident. As for the RV, Absolutely nothing, which is why it is scummy. We didn't need to get out of the RVS so badly that you needed to act like scum.

You've made that 'accident' too many times now.

And I'd like to know how self-voting is scummy besides 'it isn't scumhunting'.
And by that point we were out of the RVS. The game was stalling and nothing was happening.
I'd say we exited the RVS when the first non-random vote came (post 35). Hernz self-voted on post 75, well after the RVS ended and while the game was stalling.

[MonkeyMan576]

Stop using other accounts... Firstly, I never said I don't like the RVS we just needed to get out of it, and secondly what does the RVS got to do with voting myself?

The other account was an accident. As for the RV, Absolutely nothing, which is why it is scummy. We didn't need to get out of the RVS so badly that you needed to act like scum.

You've made that 'accident' too many times now.

And I'd like to know how self-voting is scummy besides 'it isn't scumhunting'.
And by that point we were out of the RVS. The game was stalling and nothing was happening.
I'd say we exited the RVS when the first non-random vote came (post 35). Hernz self-voted on post 75, well after the RVS ended and while the game was stalling.

If you want to defend self voting as a valid tactic, that's fine. I don't. I think it's anti town. Not necessarily so much scummy, but definately anti town. There's better things we could be doing that will bring better results.

[Henrz]

There's better things we could be doing that will bring better results.

Such as?

[MonkeyMan576]

There's better things we could be doing that will bring better results.

Such as?

Lynching scummy self-voters.

[Droideka_11]

Stop using other accounts... Firstly, I never said I don't like the RVS we just needed to get out of it, and secondly what does the RVS got to do with voting myself?

The other account was an accident. As for the RV, Absolutely nothing, which is why it is scummy. We didn't need to get out of the RVS so badly that you needed to act like scum.

You've made that 'accident' too many times now.

And I'd like to know how self-voting is scummy besides 'it isn't scumhunting'.
And by that point we were out of the RVS. The game was stalling and nothing was happening.
I'd say we exited the RVS when the first non-random vote came (post 35). Hernz self-voted on post 75, well after the RVS ended and while the game was stalling.

If you want to defend self voting as a valid tactic, that's fine. I don't. I think it's anti town. Not necessarily so much scummy, but definately anti town. There's better things we could be doing that will bring better results.

Well, I didn't see you doing anything when the game was stalling Monkey.

[MonkeyMan576]

Stop using other accounts... Firstly, I never said I don't like the RVS we just needed to get out of it, and secondly what does the RVS got to do with voting myself?

The other account was an accident. As for the RV, Absolutely nothing, which is why it is scummy. We didn't need to get out of the RVS so badly that you needed to act like scum.

You've made that 'accident' too many times now.

And I'd like to know how self-voting is scummy besides 'it isn't scumhunting'.
And by that point we were out of the RVS. The game was stalling and nothing was happening.
I'd say we exited the RVS when the first non-random vote came (post 35). Hernz self-voted on post 75, well after the RVS ended and while the game was stalling.

If you want to defend self voting as a valid tactic, that's fine. I don't. I think it's anti town. Not necessarily so much scummy, but definately anti town. There's better things we could be doing that will bring better results.

Well, I didn't see you doing anything when the game was stalling Monkey.

I certainly wasn't voting myself.

[Starbuck]

Stop using other accounts... Firstly, I never said I don't like the RVS we just needed to get out of it, and secondly what does the RVS got to do with voting myself?

The other account was an accident. As for the RV, Absolutely nothing, which is why it is scummy. We didn't need to get out of the RVS so badly that you needed to act like scum.

You've made that 'accident' too many times now.

I agree with this. There's an easy fix. Just don't look at this thread when you are on that account. You said it's your mod account right? I don't really feel comfortable with the fact that you could easily come in and edit your post whenever you feel like it with that account.

[MonkeyMan576]

I can't edit my post in a mafia game thread either way, but I will endeavor to be more accurate with my accounts. I will be consolidating my accounts in the near future.

[Locke Lamora]

(4)

Other people have commented that I generally come off as pro-town, so I'd say that's a fair comment.

I don't like this. You're basically patting your own back here.

I didn't intend to. I don't think that it's a good thing for it to be a null tell when I play in a pro-town fashion.

Neither do I. Drawing attention to yourself could be used in a pro-town way and helpful in scumhunting later on.

Scumhunting is pro-town. Not scum-hunting is anti-town. It's pretty simple.

I'm suspicious of anyone who thinks self-voting is pro-town generally.

So if Hernz self-voted to see who was going to jump on his own wagon in order to scumhunt, does that count as pro-town? Also, I was talking about drawing attention to yourself, not self-voting specifically. Were you directing that suspicion at me? Spinach? ODDin? All three of us?

[Starbuck]

There are better ways to stimulate conversation other than self-voting. Henrz only joined just a few days before I did, so I would say he should have been around long enough now to know better.

[Locke Lamora]

I would agree that there are more preferable ways of stimulating conversation to self-voting. That's not what I'm contending here. Monkey's arguing that it's very black and white - either you're scumhunting and pro-town, or not scumhunting and anti-town. I'd like to know if he will concede that you could still scumhunt from looking at who jumps on your own wagon, defines self-voting to scumhunt as anti-town regardless of outcome, or if self-voting to scumhunt is a total impossibility in his book.

[ODDin]

The question I don't see answered is

why

self-voting is anti-town. All those who feel so strongly about it, do explain how, exactly, it hurts the town - in other words, how it facilitates a mafia win.
Even more specifically, why is it now easier for the mafia to win than it was before Henrz self-voted?

[MonkeyMan576]

Voting is a tool to find scum. If you vote for yourself, you are either misleading the town or saying there's a good chance you're scum. The town should pursue cases against those that are voted on, be it self votes or otherwise. It seems obvious to me.

[ODDin]

There's a vote and there's a vote. Usually you vote to imply that you believe someone is scum, yes. However, this is not always the case. In situations where the one being voted for isn't in a serious risk of being lynched, votes are often used for other purposes as well. For instance, votes are often used to push people out of lurking and to get their attention, even if you haven't got an actual case against them.
In this case, I think it's pretty obvious Henrz wasn't trying to convey the message he is scum, his stated goals are pretty clear. I also don't see any attempt to mislead the town, as, again, his stated goals are pretty clear. So, I really don't see what he could gain out of the situation as scum. Not to say it gives him town points, but still.

[Tarballs]

Ok, this is how I see it: Henrz selfvoted to get reactions that would get us out of the RVS for good. Selfvoting is never pro-town in itself, but it's not always anti-town, either. And there's also a difference between anti-town and scummy. Scummy is almost always anti-town, but anti-town isn't always scummy.

I can't see how scum would be more likely to selfvote than townies. It's fairly obvious that Hernz's selfvote was nowhere near a serious vote. I think Starbuck and especially MM are pushing a bit too hard here.

Also, look at this inconsistency between posts #106 and #108:

If you want to defend self voting as a valid tactic, that's fine. I don't. I think it's anti town.

Not necessarily so much scummy

, but definately anti town. There's better things we could be doing that will bring better results.

Lynching

scummy self-voters

.

Unvote, Vote: MonkeyMan576

Mod: Votecount? And how about prodding/replacing DOESnotWANT?

[MonkeyMan576]

I don't see how wavering if something is scummy or anti-town is worth voting someone over. It's a pretty thin line.

[Locke Lamora]

Voting is a tool to find scum. If you vote for yourself, you are either misleading the town or saying there's a good chance you're scum. The town should pursue cases against those that are voted on, be it self votes or otherwise. It seems obvious to me.

That doesn't sound quite right to me. The town shouldn't just pursue cases against those who are voted on. If there is merit behind the votes then sure, the town should look at cases. What you did was pretty much jump on the back of Tarballs' vote with an odd reason for your own vote. The town should also pursue cases against people who make bandwagon or poorly justified votes. I'm happy with my vote where it is.

[mykonian]

Mod: Votecount? And how about prodding/replacing DOESnotWANT?

prods have to be requested, so thank you for asking.

and I mistakenly believed there was not a lot of action in the votes. My excuses for that.

the circle, votecount

MonkeyMan576 (3): Spinach, Locke Lamora, Tarballs
Droideka_11 (0):
ODDin (0):
Spinach (1): Starbuck
DOESnotWANT (0):
Locke Lamora (0):
Tarballs (0):
Henrz (2): MonkeyMan576, Starbuck
Starbuck (3): Droideka_11, ODDin, DOESnotWANT

not voting (1): Henrz

[Droideka_11]

Voting is a tool to find scum. If you vote for yourself, you are either misleading the town or saying there's a good chance you're scum. The town should pursue cases against those that are voted on, be it self votes or otherwise. It seems obvious to me.

Yes because scum often vote for themselves...

I don't see how Henrz was acting scummy when he voted for himself. Attracting uneeded attention to yourself in order to get the game moving is hardly scummy IMO.

[MonkeyMan576]

Voting is a tool to find scum. If you vote for yourself, you are either misleading the town or saying there's a good chance you're scum. The town should pursue cases against those that are voted on, be it self votes or otherwise. It seems obvious to me.

Yes because scum often vote for themselves...

I don't see how Henrz was acting scummy when he voted for himself. Attracting uneeded attention to yourself in order to get the game moving is hardly scummy IMO.

WIFOM much? If self voting was pro town, everyone would do it all the time.