Mafia 98 - Apennine Mafia (Game Over)

[Yaw]

Vote Count:

Mastin (4): Zachrulez, GIEFF, Battle Mage, Benmage
jammer (2): Kairyuu, SensFan
GIEFF (2): jammer, camn
Battle Mage (1): Mastin
broomhead (1): alexhans
Cephrir (1): Debonair Danny DiPietro


Not Voting: Cephrir, VP Baltar, broomhead, SpyreX

8 to lynch

[alexhans]

Alexhans, why so upset about Mastin being bandwagoned?

Do you want a scummy so you can appear to scumhunt or you want the real deal?

Scummy answer) Because We are scumpartners and Im totally defending him... oh... and we are 7 scum btw... this is actually lylo

Real answer) I see no reasons for voting him but atacking the first one who makes something to move the game. He is acting as he usually does and his auto-clearing doesn't seem scummy to me. Just mastin's personality. I should check a game where he is scum to have more information but from what I have now he is not scummy.

I'm not liking a fast waggon on an active, pro town player...

We should worry about those who DONT post or post null opinions and keep discussing everything...

[Zachrulez]

Alexhans, why so upset about Mastin being bandwagoned?

Do you want a scummy so you can appear to scumhunt or you want the real deal?

Scummy answer) Because We are scumpartners and Im totally defending him... oh... and we are 7 scum btw... this is actually lylo

Real answer) I see no reasons for voting him but atacking the first one who makes something to move the game. He is acting as he usually does and his auto-clearing doesn't seem scummy to me. Just mastin's personality. I should check a game where he is scum to have more information but from what I have now he is not scummy.

I'm not liking a fast waggon on an active, pro town player...

We should worry about those who DONT post or post null opinions and keep discussing everything...

I totally get to throw this in your face now.

Don't count your townies before they flip.

[alexhans]

Dude... I'm not saying he is a townie... I just HATE his waggon right now when there's still players who haven't posted and I don't really get the reasons behind the Mastin votes.

[Zachrulez]

Dude... I'm not saying he is a townie... I just HATE his waggon right now when there's still players who haven't posted and I don't really get the reasons behind the Mastin votes.

I will admit that it is a tad interesting WHO joined the bandwagon on him.

[Zachrulez]

Also, if you're not saying he's town, you shouldn't be saying this.

I'm not liking a fast waggon on an active, pro town player...

Just sayin...

[alexhans]

Pro town doesnt mean he is not mafia... look at VP Baltar, for instance. He always acts pro town. You have to look his actions very closely to see hidden motives.

[GIEFF]

Long posts do not mean pro-town. I don't think Mastin has acted pro-town at all.

Mastin, if your goal is to hunt scum, why are you warning players (specifically, jammer) ahead of time as to what you find scummy? Wouldn't you catch more scum by letting scum continue to dig a hole for themselves?

And if jammer has done things that you find scummy, why have you warned him to stop instead of voting him? For claiming to be such a big proponent of getting out of the RVS, you seem to have little interest in scumhunting, or in putting your votes where your claims of scumminess lie.

Here are the two times you have warned jammer to step back from the scum-ledge instead of letting him walk off it:

1. (Post 8):

   You think(and others?) talking about meta, is a better way to find scum, then simple scumhunting?

   Better than the RVS. We essentially skipped it with the metagaming scumhunting. Relying on scum hunting is what we'll eventually do. But for now, Meta rules.
   

   And anyone who gets rid of metagaming as an argument with our current kill is going to instantly be labeled more likely to be scum from me.

   If you really thought being anti-metagaming was a scumtell, you would not telegraph this so cavalierly. If your goal is to catch scum, you would wait and see who actually WAS anti-metagaming, rather than warn them away. You are clearly more concerned about leaving the RVS (or looking as if you want to leave the RVS) than you are about catching scum.
   
   "Careful now, scum, don't do anything scummy, or I'm liable to catch you" should not be the mindset of a townie scumhunter.
   
   
   
2. (Post 31):

   This is a fair assumption, but not to be stated as fact.

   And you yourself clarified that jammer's assumption should not be stated as fact because, at least partially, it is scummy. Once again, if your goal is to find scum, you would not find scummy things just for fun, like collecting seashells. You would find scummy things, build a case, make a vote, and try to convince others you are correct. What you have done is more helpful to scum than not - "How to stay off Mastin's suspicion-list in 5 easy steps."

You are posting a lot, but the bulk of it is in information (about how to proceed with the game) rather than analysis (about who is scum), which is a great way for scum to look busy without actually doing any scumhunting. Similarly, just voting for a player who has been in a lot of games with hascow is a neat way to avoid any more substantial scumhunting. Making up a formula (more games with hascow = scummy), and apply it unthinkingly is a lot easier method for scum to "scumhunt" than actually trying to look at possible scum and town motivations, while also remaining consistent.

Normally, it wouldn't be a big deal not to have done much scumhunting by page 2, but you continually call attention to the fact that you are eager to leave the RVS, much more so than actually trying to scumhunt your way out of it.

And most telling of all is your focus on the way you are viewed by other players, to a MUCH greater extent than your focus on catching scum. This mindset manifests itself time and time again in your posts:

• Has wouldn't be my choice with players I know;

  you can auto-clear me from picking the kill

  , as I would definitely try to lead as mafia and would have to be overridden by someone who I respect highly as a player and recognize the skill of to not nk another pro-town player.

• Eh, fair enough, but I wouldn't recommend a random vote for very long.

  I'm killing the RVS

  without using my favorite tactics.

• By the way,

  I just killed the RVS.

• One of these days, I so totally want to ask a mod if I can nk myself as scum to create confusion and for the hilarity, but, well,

  I'm not scum this game

  and that'd do no good.

• Kairyuu, what pro-town reason is there for listing the players you think that scum should kill?

  Why only singling out Kai? I did it as well.
  And, to answer,

  it kinda clears me

  , if you believe what I say. (You should.

  I don't lie

  , even as scum, 'cept when I roleclaim as scum.)

• Me? Use wifom? Ha.
  
  

  The guy who never lies

  regardless of alignment 'cept about his alignment, pulling wifom. That'd be the day...

As these quotes clearly show, you have spent a LOT more effort talking about how helpful, townie, and eager to catch scum you are than you have in actually trying to find the bad guys.

[jammer]

You suggest we ignore the kill?

Yes, or come with something good. You say not to disregard the kill, yet I've seen nothing usefull on that topic coming from you.

How's this simple scumhunting:

Ignores the supposed killing of RVS of Mastin.

Vote: SensFan

For replacing out in comfirmation stage in my other game.

You want us back in the RVS? What are you trying to make out of this?

Your previous post(before that) added more then? I prefer RVS above metaing N0 kills. I think that represents my thoughs about that matter. I think the attention I got with random voting, opposing Mastins meta idea and taking 4 scum as truth. Truly got us out of RVS and not the metaing that was bringing us nowhere.

#Jammer's 26: what's your Conclusion? Are you scumhunting? Is mastin?

I was mainly pointing out mistakes in the metaing of kills.

also, in addition to Mastin's following post I would tell you to look at Sensfan's death on n0 in Mafia 91. Not random.

Mastin has a very good point when he says that n0 kills are very probably not random.

If you catched mafia using meta with the kill back then, I can follow. Till I hear you did that, I call the idea stupid.

I don't feel like researching too much right now about numbers... I still stick to my 4 scum theory (And it's practically a wcs that we could use as guideline if we mislynch 3 times in a row... we'll assume lylo).

You didn't research it, yet state it is stupid to say 4 scum is strange, multiple times.

@DDD: Fair enough, it's contradictory. But does that really matter?

Could be a slip where you admitted there aren't 4 scum. While you first went with the flow and assumed 3-4 scum.

Has wouldn't be my choice with players I know; you can auto-clear me from picking the kill, as I would definitely try to lead as mafia and would have to be overridden by someone who I respect highly as a player and recognize the skill of to not nk another pro-town player.

Now I'm not sure whether this was entirely serious or not, but if it was... yeah. Incidentally, it's also suspicious if it was entirely serious.

He certainly is entirely serious.

What do you think about Mastin actions. Does the wagon have good reasons, is it moving to fast?

[Mastin]

Yay!
Three and a half pages!
Keep it up!

...Unfortunately, I will be V/LA for most of the weekend and so, will not be able to participate in the fun a great deal during that time. Bad timing sucks.

Oh, well. You can look forward to many catchup posts after that; enjoy.

[Battle Mage]

Unvote, Vote: Alex Hans

Serious vote. Serious wagon required.

BM

[SpyreX]

Trying to catch up with stupid pay by hour internet sucks.

I see a whole lot of classic rigamarole about setup speculation (which is null), pushing out of the rvs (which is null)... but, a growing wagon that seems to be growing under its own growth and not "real reasons" which... isn't null.

I will try to give a better synopsis but looking at how its going I dig Mastin for now. My scum-theory isn't panning out with how he is acting after the fact.

Ireland is a hoot btw.

[VP Baltar]

Picking up where I left off. Apparently missing a day in this game is going to be a very bad thing:

And, to answer, it kinda clears me, if you believe what I say. (You should. I don't lie, even as scum, 'cept when I roleclaim as scum.)

What is really the point of saying this?

Jammer stated there are 4 scum as a fact, not as a guess, and without any reasoning presented. I don't know why a townie would just take a wild guess another player made as "believable truth."

Seemeed like he was saying it was a reasonable guess to me. Also I think it is interesting that you only start questioning him after Mastin prods you for reasons.

Vote GIEFF

The guy who never lies regardless of alignment 'cept about his alignment, pulling wifom. That'd be the day...

Is this sarcastic?

@Zachrulz--why are you essentially answering for Gieff in post 57?

He has that kind of integrity.

haha, if you'd like to believe that.

Do you or do you not feel that jammer assumed there were four scum? Regardless of whether you want to call it truth or a fact, the point is that jammer assumed there were 4 scum

Actually it is very important because you were saying that he KNEW there were four scum, when what he really said was that he found alex's case to be "believable truth". The operative word there is believable...ie a theory to be believed. You definitely look scummy in this exchange as trying to stretch for an argument that isn't there.

Ireland is a hoot btw.

I'm jealous. I've always wanted to go. Have a pint for me!

OK, relatively caught up for now. I had to quick scan some of the larger posts because work is a bit busy right now. Political unrest is a blast! Anyhow, my internet at home is also jacked up, so I'm just going to call

V/LA this weekend

as a precaution.

[Battle Mage]

Yaw #25:
From now on the short forms are:
Battle Mage = BM
SensFan = SF
alexhans = Alex
GIEFF = GIEFF
Cephrir = Ceph
VP Baltar = VP
Debonair Danny DiPietro = DDD
Kairyuu = Kai
camn = Camn
broomhead = Broom
SpyreX = Spy
Zachrulez = Zach
Benmage = Ben
Mastin = Mastin
jammer = Jam
hasdgfas = Hascow

Do we all agree? So we can easyly use Ctrl-f to look for a name OR short form? Remember, It all helps the town.

Nah, i disagree. Jammer can be Jammer. SpyreX can be Spyrex. Kairyuu can be Kairyuu. Hasdgfas can be Has. Cephrir can be Cephrir. You can be Lynchbait.

#Jammer's 26: what's your Conclusion? Are you scumhunting? Is mastin?

also, in addition to Mastin's following post I would tell you to look at Sensfan's death on n0 in Mafia 91. Not random.

Mastin has a very good point when he says that n0 kills are very probably not random.

Very good point? It isnt brain surgery, pal. What scumgroup kills randomly?

The flaw you have is, that any motive you give to a scumkill is automatically WIFOM. Thus, no conclusion you can draw from the kills can make a strong case.

I don't feel like researching too much right now about numbers... I still stick to my 4 scum theory (And it's practically a wcs that we could use as guideline if we mislynch 3 times in a row... we'll assume lylo).

It's really wierd how you are desperate to push the 4 scum theory, but it is in the interests of the town anyway to promote cautiousness.

jammer, if you read the site/my sig at the time, you would have known I was forced out of that game. So I'm going with a

Vote" jammer

Is this a joke vote? Are you voting a player who is on the spotlight for what reasons exactly? Are you going to be as combative as ever? Are we gonna end up fighting?

What's with all the rhetorical questions??

The kill would be most likely to come from someone who knows hascow. Furthermore, I believe that a senior player on the scum team would have more sway and would help direct the kill toward someone like hascow, as opposed to someone a newer person might be more inclined to kill based on overall site rep alone.

I agree with this.

Convenient? Whats your relationship with Hasdgfas?

Seriously, guys.

SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT THE KILL.

Its something the Scum have 100% control over, and I'm betting most/all of the Scum are now trying to use that to also control the Day phase.

mmmm... I knew it...

Sensfan...
Discussing, stating our opinions = Healthy
Shutting the fuck up = NOT healthy

Trying to appear pro-town, whilst not actually saying anything.

I feel reasonably safe in calling you as town.

Do not count your townies until they flip... Remember Steph?

DDD: THIS is the time to speculate about deaths... later on, we wont be able because scum may choose to wifom. But right now. I'm sure it counts for something.

Possibly the least intelligent thing i have ever read. ^

Why coach Zach? And who is Steph?

Cephrir expects three or four scum, says we should assume four scum because of that possibility. And then concludes by stating there probably aren't four scum. While these statements are completely contradictory they certainly don't look good to me.

Good point. It sounded weird to me too.

its not wierd, it's completely logical...

BM... YOUR #71 is much more scummy than anything you might pretend Mastin is... Hoping on a waggon just like that?

Lol, wow. It's the Random Vote Stage. Get over it. xD

In any case, my vote was not without reason. Mastin came right out of the gate pushing an argument that was not only completely illogical, but was also likely to lead to the lynch of AT LEAST 1, and possibly 3 or 4, townies. What do you expect me to do? Kiss his ass? lmao

Mastin is an active and great player IMO and that's just his style. He was amongst the first people to post

Oh, sorry i didnt realise we'd instituted a rule where the first players to post are protown. 0.o

What are you smokin, bro?

Active and great player, as he may be, it doesnt mean he is town, or worth keeping around. Nor does it make people who are suspicious of him, automatically scummy.

and he completely destroyed RVS (First time I've seen this) making this game really interesting from the get go.

Erm, do you always believe everything you're told?
The only way you can claim that Mastin destroyed the RVS, is if you assume that he is scum, and/or the wagon on him is legitimate. You don't seem to believe this, thus you cannot claim that we have left the RVS.

I think that your move is odd and opportunistic.

How many times have you played with Mastin? I've gotta admit, he strikes me as the kinda guy who probably attracts more attention than he deserves, not the other way around. Why then, should it be wierd that he would get that attention here. In a game of this size, a 3rd vote is nothing, yet you appear to have shat a brick. Is it because Mastin is your scumchum, or more likely, because he is town, who you feel can be manipulated?

Smells....town. But i dont get the fixation with namedropping players you know. It ain't cool, and it ain't productive. Whoever did the italicising and underlining thing at least actually achieved something.

dude... you dissapoint me... One post and you already have an opinion of allignment... I was just following Mastin's idea wich I though cool and Kai made it cooler.

If you're not helping don't criticize.

I'm not calling anyone town until I'm REALLY convinced they are town... and event then... I will still watch them closely.

Thats funny, because you did the exact same thing with Mastin, and myself. The only difference is, it appears you were being serious.

You said yourself that opinions are important. How seriously do you take an unsubstantiated claim? Too seriously, i should suggest.

Can you please explain the bit in bold?

Vote Mastin

OK... WTF? BENMAGE??? YOU ARE CLEARLY JUMPING ON MASTIN WAGGON... IT'S REALLY SCUMMY YES! IM FURIOUS (HENCE THE CAPS). I LIKE MASTIN. HE HELPS TOWN. HE MAY BE SCUM BUT THERE ARE NO LEADS THAT INDICATE THAT RIGHT NOW.

Damnit bro. Could you BE any more transparent? I'm intrigued to hear what Mastin makes of this. You quite clearly KNOW that Mastin is town, because you wouldnt defend your buddy like this. What i dont understand is the passion behind it. Are you and Mastin a couple irl?

Maybe if you quit whinging and listen to the points against Mastin with an open mind, you might fare better in the game.

Now obviously I didn’t vote you. I don’t think this is the most compelling scum find. I am much more inclined to vote for Mastin who initiated this motive, and auto-ruled himself out, because he would obviously kill someone else if he was scum.

Bullshit. Mastin made a theory. It isn't foolproof. It doesn't rule him out. He provided a way to start the game.

It's a really exploitable theory. Not protown.

BM

[Zachrulez]

@Zachrulz--why are you essentially answering for Gieff in post 57?

My intention wasn't to answer for Gieff, but to illustrate something to Jammer that should have been pretty obvious that he was having difficulty understanding.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

@DDD: Fair enough, it's contradictory. But does that really matter?

Yes, I’m inherently suspicious of anyone who either fails to take a stance or tries to make multiple stances because both of those are the easiest ways to make sure you’re never wrong or always partially right thus just slipping into the background.

also, in addition to Mastin's following post I would tell you to look at Sensfan's death on n0 in Mafia 91. Not random.

Mastin has a very good point when he says that n0 kills are very probably not random.

Very good point? It isnt brain surgery, pal. What scumgroup kills randomly?

The flaw you have is, that any motive you give to a scumkill is automatically WIFOM. Thus, no conclusion you can draw from the kills can make a strong case.

Agreed. Ironically, Alex mentions M91 as solid reason for NK speculation, noting that Sens’ N0 death wasn’t random. Except the other scum group, which I was a part of, removed everyone we played with from the player list and then randomly killed from that list N0 as to throw off townies trying to do this exact kind of speculation. BM’s last two sentences perfectly sum up my opinion on this matter.

[Kairyuu]

I need to catch up. Will do so tonight after work.

[SensFan]

jammer, if you read the site/my sig at the time, you would have known I was forced out of that game. So I'm going with a

Vote" jammer

Is this a joke vote? Are you voting a player who is on the spotlight for what reasons exactly? Are you going to be as combative as ever? Are we gonna end up fighting?

I vote for who I think is Scum. That's it, that's all.
If you have any doubts about my ability to read with my gut, ask GIEFF.

Seriously, guys.

SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT THE KILL.

Its something the Scum have 100% control over, and I'm betting most/all of the Scum are now trying to use that to also control the Day phase.

mmmm... I knew it...

Sensfan...
Discussing, stating our opinions = Healthy
Shutting the fuck up = NOT healthy

No.

Discussing and stating opinions about the Night Kill = Not Fucking Healthy
Shutting the fuck up about stuff the Scum has full control over = Healthy

I will not be repeating myself again.

DO NOT DISCARD 4 scumteam. It may bite us in the ass if we mislynch thrice.

I'm willing to go on record saying there are are not 4 Scum.

2:10 is considered theoretically balanced, though Town has never won
You really think a mod like Yaw would make a 4:11 set-up? I think it far more likely that we're dealing with a 3:12 set-up, and there's even a higher chance of 2:13 than 4:11.

[camn]

I vote for who I think is Scum. That's it, that's all.
If you have any doubts about my ability to read with my gut, ask GIEFF.

You'll never get scum lynched that way.
You have to convince the rest of us!

[SensFan]

I vote for who I think is Scum. That's it, that's all.
If you have any doubts about my ability to read with my gut, ask GIEFF.

You'll never get scum lynched that way.
You have to convince the rest of us!

Yeah, yeah. Don't worry.

[GIEFF]

Do you or do you not feel that jammer assumed there were four scum? Regardless of whether you want to call it truth or a fact, the point is that jammer assumed there were 4 scum

Actually it is very important because you were saying that he KNEW there were four scum, when what he really said was that he found alex's case to be "believable truth". The operative word there is believable...ie a theory to be believed. You definitely look scummy in this exchange as trying to stretch for an argument that isn't there.

As I said before, my suspicion was aroused when jammer said "With 4 scum..." Only later, after I asked him about it, did he call it a "believable truth," but him saying "4 scum" still looked like an assumption to me, and I would rather go on that than on somebody's later claims about the matter (Cause people sometimes lie in this game - we can't all be Mastin).

Vote Mastin

OK... WTF? BENMAGE??? YOU ARE CLEARLY JUMPING ON MASTIN WAGGON... IT'S REALLY SCUMMY YES! IM FURIOUS (HENCE THE CAPS). I LIKE MASTIN. HE HELPS TOWN. HE MAY BE SCUM BUT THERE ARE NO LEADS THAT INDICATE THAT RIGHT NOW.

Damnit bro. Could you BE any more transparent? I'm intrigued to hear what Mastin makes of this. You quite clearly KNOW that Mastin is town, because you wouldnt defend your buddy like this. What i dont understand is the passion behind it. Are you and Mastin a couple irl?

OK WTF BATTLE MAGE???? YOU ARE CLEARLY STARTING A BENMAGE WAGGON.

Independent of your feelings about alex, do YOU think Mastin is town, Battle Mage? Your previous posts seem to indicate otherwise, yet you claim alex KNOWS Mastin is town. Are you so sure alex is scum that you are willing to carry that assumption to the second level, guessing others' alignment through the prism of alex-scum?

------

Alex - if you think jumping on a Mastin wagon is "really scummy", why didn't you follow up on it at all? All you did was throw out an FOS to one of the players on the wagon, without any further questioning or prodding. Looks to me as if you don't really think the wagon is all that scummy - you just want it to fall apart from THREATS of scumminess


Also, alex - if you said this:

I'm not calling anyone town until I'm REALLY convinced they are town... and event then... I will still watch them closely.

Then why are you so sure Mastin is town that you freak out when he gets 4 votes? That is inconsistent.

---------

I vote for who I think is Scum. That's it, that's all.
If you have any doubts about my ability to read with my gut, ask GIEFF.

Gut aside, you should be able to answer if your gut was influenced by the reasons I (assuming 4 scum) or Kai (trying to extend RVS) previously stated to vote for jammer. You have refused to do so twice now (maybe three times).

You'll never get scum lynched that way.
You have to convince the rest of us!

Based on past experience, it may be a good idea to consider L-2 as L-1 in this game. Sens-scum may try to use his "I WILL QUICKHAMMER ANYBODY" meta to get away with a scum-hammer, or a misguided town-hammer.

[SensFan]

Based on past experience, it may be a good idea to consider L-2 as L-1 in this game. Sens-scum may try to use his "I WILL QUICKHAMMER ANYBODY" meta to get away with a scum-hammer, or a misguided town-hammer.

If I think someone is Scum, and they are at L-1, absolutely I will hammer. I expect the same of everyone else in this game.

[alexhans]

Meh... long post...

Long posts do not mean pro-town. I don't think Mastin has acted pro-town at all.

Maybe I'm prejudiced by my past experiences but I STILL don't see how why he has acted anti-town.

Anyway. I'm gonna let him speak for himself. I'm just noting my disagreement with his waggon.

#107: The succession of Masting's Im town quotes made me lol. You may have a point there and I may be too pro-Mastin. I really need to meta him at this point to see what's going on.

Yes, or come with something good. You say not to disregard the kill, yet I've seen nothing usefull on that topic coming from you.

Jammer. I sense agressivenes... Haven't we got the game moving with that topic?

If you catched mafia using meta with the kill back then, I can follow. Till I hear you did that, I call the idea stupid.

My intention was never to lynch someone using meta. My inention was to get the game moving with some rather serious accussations so people could start arguing, siding, reacting, retorting, etc, etc.

RVS with such amount of experienced players may be a problem to disentangle. I liked this avoidance of RVS. It felt like starting playing from the get go.

ou didn't research it, yet state it is stupid to say 4 scum is strange, multiple times.

dude... I NEVER Said it was STUPID. EVER. And the fact that you're saying I did it multiple times annoys me big time. To assume that there's 3 or 2. Seeing how a lot of players seem to agree one 3 that's a big probability. I just DONT WANT us to lure in a false sense of security assuming that there can on only be 3 scum.

Unvote, Vote: Alex Hans

Serious vote. Serious wagon required.

BM

I'm sensing bullshit coming my way... The fact that you left mastin's waggon to the one who is "defending him" is noted.

Nah, i disagree. Jammer can be Jammer. SpyreX can be Spyrex. Kairyuu can be Kairyuu. Hasdgfas can be Has. Cephrir can be Cephrir. You can be Lynchbait.

It is a way to organize things so it's easier to make searchs afterwards. Has is not a good short form, at all. Hasd is better in that case but hascow is just 2 letters longer and that joke is NOT funny because you seem intent in pulling it off.

The flaw you have is, that any motive you give to a scumkill is automatically WIFOM. Thus, no conclusion you can draw from the kills can make a strong case.

*sigh*
You all seem to be ignoring my words... argumenting about a kill is NOT definite to finding scum. But it can provide a base from where to start. Why is people so unconfortable around this idea? WHy are YOU so against it? Because it signaled you as posible player?
I'm usually told that setup-speculation is bad, but here we are, wondering how many scum there is and no one has said anything there was anything wrong about it. What's the HUDE deal with nk speculation then? Also, Note that I said that futher NK would not be useful because they will be probably covered with WIFOM but I think the n0 kill allows a reason...

Did scum knew that the RVS was gonna be avoided like that? if not... why would they think of wifom?

It's really wierd how you are desperate to push the 4 scum theory, but it is in the interests of the town anyway to promote cautiousness.

Ok... this kind of posts always scream scummy to me. This is called SOFT-PUSHING or SOFT-IMPLYING or whatever. You agree with me in the quid of the matter but still call me "weird" for it. Weird is used when you want others to think... oh...

if it's weird it must be scummy...

Uncool tactic.

What's with all the rhetorical questions??

I know SF has a strong personality. I'm just testing the waters. What's wrong with them, anyway? are you just adding fluff to an otherwise lame case?

The kill would be most likely to come from someone who knows hascow. Furthermore, I believe that a senior player on the scum team would have more sway and would help direct the kill toward someone like hascow, as opposed to someone a newer person might be more inclined to kill based on overall site rep alone.

I agree with this.

Convenient? Whats your relationship with Hasdgfas?

I'd appreciate if you read what I said a long time ago before asking that SAME question.

I've played with Hascow before and he was not a very active scum player... at least in that game. Maybe it was because the town had 80 % of lynchable material (Empking, Zwets, Dejkha, Wall-e and Hewitt). Anyway... If I had to kill... knowing there were no protections whatsoever... I would've killed... sensfan? Mastin? someone random that I don't know? Probably I wouldn't have had a voice in a scumteam....

Note 2 things.
1) I STATE my relationship with hascow.
2) I say that I would probably have no voice on a scumteam so that means that there's no kill that could rule me out or make me townier because it wouldnt probably be my choice.

Trying to appear pro-town, whilst not actually saying anything.

BM... you're really starting to annoy me and you're really starting to look like trying to fake a case instead of actually scumhunting.

I said the whole healthy thing to avoid a Sensfan flame up for nothing. We are not going to lynch him, you or whoever just for a nk theory.

Possibly the least intelligent thing i have ever read. ^

Why coach Zach? And who is Steph?

^ Possibly the less useless comment I've ever heard.

At least STATTE why you don't agree with it instead of insulting my intelligence. I'm here for the fun, not for you to insult me without reasons. I'm open to arguments but won't accept disrespectful people.

If you had meta-ed me... you would find that I usually try to coach everyone into playing in a way wich I think is the optimal way... I may be mistaken but it's what I think is good. A player can take it or leave it.

Steph is Stephoscope. A player who Zach and I defended because the players against him (Amished and DDD) where going after him with a WRONG case. He turned up scum in the end but the case on day 1 was not good enough. There were other things that made him scummier on later days but not D1. I reminded Zach of not setting his mind on something because we could have a surprise, as we did. I actually though that Steph was town for a great part of that game. That's why I wont be hard set on Mastin town. But right now, I don't feel the case on him is enough. I think it's more of a reflex of accusing the most talkative player in the game.

its not wierd, it's completely logical...

Ok. Stop with the contradictions without explanations. EXPLAIN. EXPLAIN. EXPLAIN. If you state something, don't leave it hanging there. No one has the ultimate truth.

Lol, wow. It's the Random Vote Stage. Get over it. xD

...

In any case, my vote was not without reason. Mastin came right out of the gate pushing an argument that was not only completely illogical, but was also likely to lead to the lynch of AT LEAST 1, and possibly 3 or 4, townies. What do you expect me to do?

Ok. I didnt take it that seriously but I guess it's somewhat valid to vote for him. But... would you lynch him for it?

Oh, sorry i didnt realise we'd instituted a rule where the first players to post are protown. 0.o

YES Rule 195 of the mafia handbook!!!!
no, seriously, I didn't mean that. I meant that he can probably do a lot of good to this game. Posting helps, IMO, if someone posts a lot and then flips town we may see what he was thinking, who was against him, etc. if he flips scum... we have a gold mine of info. That's why lurking is so detrimental to town and no one should do it if they're town so scum cant hide in a lurker pool.

Active and great player, as he may be, it doesnt mean he is town

I know

, or worth keeping around.

I wouldn't be so sure about that as I've explained before.

Nor does it make people who are suspicious of him, automatically scummy.

No, BUT, I think one may always sense if a vote is forced or not. Benmage's vote, for example, sounded forced to me.

The only way you can claim that Mastin destroyed the RVS, is if you assume that he is scum, and/or the wagon on him is legitimate. You don't seem to believe this, thus you cannot claim that we have left the RVS.

what??? I don't follow your logic that the only way in wich RVS was destroyed is if mastin is scum... Could you rephrase it in a way a 5 year old could understand?

Also, how many jokes vote are are you seeing?

*Alexhans scores!

How many times have you played with Mastin? I've gotta admit, he strikes me as the kinda guy who probably attracts more attention than he deserves, not the other way around. Why then, should it be wierd that he would get that attention here. In a game of this size, a 3rd vote is nothing, yet you appear to have shat a brick.

Is it because Mastin is your scumchum, or more likely, because he is town, who you feel can be manipulated?

woah... Loaded questions... (Bolded for emphasis)
"Are you scum because of A or are you scum because of B?"

Brain explodes...

1) I know it's wifom but thinking I would defend a scumpartner on D1 with such a great enthusiasm is underestimating me. Greatly.
2) While this is not totally unthinkable. I know that defending a player doens't help to go unnoticed and you may get heat for it (like YOUR F%&% senseless Vote!). I've learned that scum is safer being mild on the first stages of the game and then attacking with "great" and "bombastic" cases faking conviction. Also, I DONT think Mastin is so easyly influenciable. And why would I feel the need to manipulate him when he is throwing flowers in my direction before I do?

I've played twice with him (again, you're not paying attention) but he marked me with his playstyle.

btw, BM, when did you stop beating your wife?

Thats funny, because you did the exact same thing with Mastin, and myself. The only difference is, it appears you were being serious

Oh... so you were joking? that explains your sudden change to an Alexhans vote...

You said yourself that opinions are important. How seriously do you take an unsubstantiated claim?

I've been criticized for taking things to seriously but it's just a desire to optimize this game. Hascow was KILLED after all. Have you got no conscience???

Can you please explain the bit in bold?

"If you dont Help Dont criticize"
there's a way to critic constructively that has an intended goal. There's another that only creates violence. We should avoid the latter. This is a game after all and I don't want to get worked up like I did before. Flaming me to get reactions is not a valid recourse. I will just ignore you and I advise anyone else to do the same. Let's play, inspect, scumhunt, retort and all that jazz... but keep up the positiviness so we can make it an enjoyable experience.

Damnit bro. Could you BE any more transparent? I'm intrigued to hear what Mastin makes of this. You quite clearly KNOW that Mastin is town, because you wouldnt defend your buddy like this. What i dont understand is the passion behind it. Are you and Mastin a couple irl?

So... what I get from this is...
1) You've JUST STATED Mastin is town by saying I KNOW mastin is town.
2) You think I'm scum buddying up to mastin (fail, you're more plain than I am for thinking that a defense means someone is scum).

the passion comes from a FEELING. I don't want mastin out at this point. I KNOW he has a lot to offer and I didnt get scum vibes from him.

Maybe if you quit whinging and listen to the points against Mastin with an open mind, you might fare better in the game.

I don't understand you... You accuse me of buddying a TOWN mastin but then you coach me to open my mind?

anyway, it's good advice and I already started doing that. GIEFF's post was pretty good. But I'll have to do my own meta-research to get a real feeling.

It's a really exploitable theory. Not protown.

I STILL don't know where you lean...

You keep fencesitting along your whole post between Mastin and me... but when going after me you strongly imply I'm buddying him... it's pretty contradictory.
-----------------

Agreed. Ironically, Alex mentions M91 as solid reason for NK speculation, noting that Sens’ N0 death wasn’t random. Except the other scum group, which I was a part of, removed everyone we played with from the player list and then randomly killed from that list N0 as to throw off townies trying to do this exact kind of speculation. BM’s last two sentences perfectly sum up my opinion on this matter.

Sicilian Mafia:

Sensfan might be a good kill. I don't know him, but I think he is a skillful player--seems well known around the site.

As said earlier, empking/zwet have a tendency of not being very contributive, they are actually beneficial to have around. Sensfan sounds good.

Japanese Mafia:

Anyways, here's the list of people in the game with us removed and the people I want to keep around removed as well. Feel free to repost the list removing players you want to keep around so we can figure out who we want to kill on N0.

I have only played with one of them and it's an ongoing game, so I am little help here. I've seen some SensFan play before and could go for him as the kill on night 0.

later... DDD just states his proposal.

Anyways, here's my proposal for N0...

Kill: Zilla
Block: Benmage

So I don't have a clue if there's a motive or if it's just random. But I clearly remembered the sensfan kill speculation and motives by people in BOTH scumteams.
---------

I vote for who I think is Scum. That's it, that's all.
If you have any doubts about my ability to read with my gut, ask GIEFF.

Ok... But one doesnt make a lynch. If you state some good reasons you will be able to convince people (specially me, I wont go for unreasoned votes)

Discussing and stating opinions about the Night Kill = Not Fucking Healthy
Shutting the fuck up about stuff the Scum has full control over = Healthy

meh... seems like a lot of people disagree with me. I've stated my opinion about the matter. We'll have to deal with the differences.

I'm willing to go on record saying there are are not 4 Scum.

Ok. The more I hear all of you, the more I doubt my own 4 scum theory... BUT, as I've said, let's not take 3 for granted. It doesnt hurt us to think about wcs.

You really think a mod like Yaw would make a 4:11 set-up? I think it far more likely that we're dealing with a 3:12 set-up, and there's even a higher chance of 2:13 than 4:11.

I don't really know. I thought it up as if I were the mod. don't know Yaw enough because I just played a newbie game with him as mod.
--------------------
118: QFT (someone agrees with me!!! )
---------------------

Alex - if you think jumping on a Mastin wagon is "really scummy", why didn't you follow up on it at all? All you did was throw out an FOS to one of the players on the wagon, without any further questioning or prodding. Looks to me as if you don't really think the wagon is all that scummy - you just want it to fall apart from THREATS of scumminess

Because I didnt want to lose my broomhead vote... I want the guy to stop lurking or to appear and react. I can't have 2 votes so I stated my opinions in a clear way and I Fosed him. It's good enough for me. He will have to answer. Can anyone doubt that I find him scummy atm?

Then why are you so sure Mastin is town that you freak out when he gets 4 votes? That is inconsistent.

No GIEFF. I NEVER called mastin town. I just said that he doesn't seem town to me and that I don't like the cases on him.

If I think someone is Scum, and they are at L-1, absolutely I will hammer. I expect the same of everyone else in this game.

If you hammer a townsperson with that logic and you dont explain why said person is scum it's totally anti-town.

[alexhans]

EBWOP: Where I say "
^ Possibly the less useless comment I've ever heard. " I mean the MOST.

[Benmage]

V/La till sunday.