Open 156 - Friends and Enemies - Game Over before 816

[Santos]

6) Sho's examples of players and their hated game play styles is something I really admire seeing someone else stand up and take a stand against the hate on those play styles...but in the end, as I've noticed rereading my past games, can be a huge distraction for the town. Its a learning process of course because once we're able to adhere our posting style and contribute to the thread

without

being an enormous distraction, then we're sure to make for better mafia players.

^fixed bolded.

Vote Count #3

"Hey ZazieR, weren't you FrankiePeanuts a minute ago?" asked muzzz.

"Umm... nope, I've definitely always been here. Yep, definitely." replied ZazieR.

Exalt (2) - Debonair Danny DiPietro, Raivann
Santos (2) - Sho Minamimoto, Kise
Debonair Danny DiPietro (2) - Toro, itacv2
Toro (1) - ZazieR
Sho Minamimoto (1) - muzzz
Kise (1) - ekiM

[muzzz]

I''ve already explained why I''m posting this way.

I think I missed this. Can you give me the tl;dr, or a linky?

[ZazieR]

Here

[muzzz]

Seems fair enough. I'm sure there's better ways, but I don't really mind as long as you don't drown out the rest.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Oi~
It''s good to see some known faces again
Especially two of my previous lovers XD

Will read shortly and post some analysis.

You aren't going to leave me this time so KMD can trick the stupid replacement, are you?

[ZazieR]

Blame Hohum for that *glare at Hohum*

[Kise]

As for Post 57
Not the self-vote trap thingy.
From my experience, it doesn''t work.
And it doesn''t make ekiM scummy.

Considering I regarded Frankie & ekiM as being in the same (scum) boat, it'll take some time before your viewpoint on ekiM's alignment is accepted.

[Kise]

What about Raivann, Toro and itacv2?

I'm familiar with Santos, which is why his name poked out to me. I wanted to know if he was paying attention to the game or not. I didn't bother looking at the player-list, which is why I didn't check the other 3 people you mentioned.

Rai & itacv2 are indeed minimal when it comes to productivity. Toro is not taking the liberal position. He has asked questions.

Quality > Quantity.

But getting back to Rai & itacv2... yeah, they're under the radar as well.

@Santos - Do you plan to stay up to date in thread and comment occasionally?

[Kise]

Toro is not taking the liberal position. He has asked questions.

In other words, I'm OK with Toro's posting so far.

[Exalt]

Exalt, I don't think there's any point in placing a random vote then removing it as soon as the RVS is over. I guess this is kind of tangential though and not scummy if this is just your playstyle/opinion.

A policy lynch is a lynch for someone's playstyle. You're floating the idea of lynching Sho for his playstyle. That's a policy lynch. It's not appropriate, because his playstyle can't indicate his alignment as it's invariant from game to game and was picked in advance. We should be looking to lynch scum, not whomever we find obnoxious. Note also that pushing a policy lynch is a common place for scum to hide.

Frankly, I find your making an issue of Sho's playstyle is being far more distracting than Sho's playstyle itself. Do you think you could try dropping it? What do you think about the other players in the game?

Here is my problem with Sho and the problem that keeps occuring out of it. Everyone is assuming I am saying "vote him as a policy lynch" like it is his natural playstyle that makes me upset, but that is not what I meant when I said I would vote him and keep it there if he keeps it up.

I guess what I'm saying is, a player that plays in such an EXTREME scummy state would always be considered scummy, and if we write it off as simple policy lynch for voting him for being so scummy ALL the time, then he mine as well have an immunity card. If all he does is look and act scummy and we just call it his play style than he is free and clear with that blanket statement for any and all scummy things he does during the game. I DO NOT agree with that, and that is what I'm stressing. I don't care about his play style, but I WILL NOT write it off as simply "his play style" if he continues to act so scummy and anti-town all the time throughout the game. That is what I'm saying. Does that make my position more clear? The rest of you can write him off as a play style, but if he keeps up being scummy by using the play style then I am going to call it scummy, not a play style. Hence my disagreement with it being a policy lynch.

As for Sho's question to me on if I agree a policy lynch is good or not, I do not agree, but I also do not view lynching you for being so scummy as a policy lynch either. If we called every scummy player into question and said "oh its just their play style" then everyone would be a policy lynch, and no one would ever have any good reason to vote. I don't know if the rest of the town will continue to view you as just a play style, but I won't go that black and white with you.

Regarding Post 35
Is this scummy to you or not?
The ad hom is noted.

I'm not sure this question was toward me or not. Please say my name first because it is an open ended question. I guess I will explain it though either way. DDD was acting like a complete ass in his arrogance toward other players, and I told him to stop in so many words. I UNVOTED him because he was stacking up I think 3 or 4 votes at the time, and I wasn't about to keep my random vote on him simply because he was being so abrasive and arrogant. I guess some of you think it is scummy for me to remove my vote (Raivann), but I don't view it as such, and frankly I don't care what you think. I won't structure my vote habits around the opinions of players like Raivann simply to make myself look more "town" in his eyes. I unvoted because I don't see DDD as scum at the moment.

Exalt

, do you think Sho is scummy or not?
Because at some moments I have the impression you do. But at other moments, I don''t get this impression.

I'm very wishy washy on him at the moment. Sometimes I think it is just his play style that is just inherently scummy, while other times I get the feeling that he is doing it with more sinister goals in mind. I really don't know yet, but since I have opinions on both sides of the fence my vote stays for now. Simply put, your impressions of me are correct so far.


I hope that answers the questions put forth toward me. If I missed one, let me know.

@ Debonair Danny DiPietro:

I've noticed you have stayed fairly quiet this whole time, and not since RVS or just recently to joke with ZazieR have you posted anything. I have also noticed nothing has been very substantial, hence it is slightly active lurking. I don't see it as scummy because you are probably just soaking in the information, but now I want to know what your thoughts are. So what are you opinions on the happenings of the game thus far?

@Raivann:

Please answer my question to you on why your single and only post in the entire game is to say that I was trying too hard when I removed my vote. Since it was your only post of the game and since you voted me without explaining it, I'm asking that you do. How was I trying too hard, and in what way did it look scummy enough to deserve a vote.

[Sho Minamimoto]

@Sho: a real-life dollar can't be factored into a hundred real-life pennies. But the worth of a dollar can be factored into a hundred times the worth of a penny. Anything that can be arrived at through multiplication can be factored.
[/b]

Exactly my point. Hectopascal cannot be factored. The worth of a hectopascal *can* be factored.

Kise's Trap seemed like root-1. I mean, a self vote is null and gets as much conversation as a vote does in the RVS. I understand that much. What I don't understand is how someone attacking that (as it is a newer concept) is scummy or indicative of anti-town alignment.

Next, Post 51
Don''t like the question asked here and the same one from Post 45. It''s a very big stretch.

Why?

I forgot about this mafia. Sorry.

1) I hate math. I went to school for something else completely on the other end of the spectrum.
2) Hi, Kise. My contribution so far is just probably being annoyed with the mathematical battle that is going on in the thread so far.
3) I like ZazieR posting this way as opposed to her restricted posting style in Skywalker Mafia by zwet. That was awful reading her posts.
4) At the moment, I don't feel a need for a random vote as it seems we have a few pitched battles going on around the math discussion.
5) Exalt answering Sho about policy lynches would be nice.
6) Sho's examples of players and their hated game play styles is something I really admire seeing someone else stand up and take a stand against the hate on those play styles...but in the end, as I've noticed rereading my past games, can be a huge distraction for the town. Its a learning process of course, because once we're able to adhere our posting style and contribute to the thread with being an enormous distraction we're sure to make for better mafia players.

I'm going to bed, and again, sorry I forgot I was in this.

1. Not Science... Not Philosophy...
So, English, History, or Drama? I'm betting English.

2. This is as humorous as 6 being afraid of 7.

3. I zetta dig her style too.

4. Understood.

5. I agree.

6. I'll cut the "taking a stand" to a minimum.

@Exalt: Well please excuse my dear aunt sally...

Your last post actually made you look like a half decent player. However, you did misconstrue my statement. Empking's play style is inherently scummy. You would not lynch him unless that play style makes Empking look like scum. Well, it does. So, you would policy lynch Empking? Dunno. You have answered my question, but you seem to have left out a loop hole. Also, it is Meta that proves Empking is scummy regardless of alignment due to play style. I have none. So, I suppose your answer to the last question would be no, but put me in there, and it would be yes, until my meta builds up.

Okay, I can accept this.

[Exalt]

Also, I want to point this out about Sho so that everyone understands what his play style really is and what it really isn't.

http://twewy.wikia.com/wiki/Sho_Minamimoto That is the link to the character that he is emulating in his play style. He is using the exact words of the character, along with the characters attributes such as "refusing to get along with others."

This is not some advanced play style that Santos wants to admire so well. This guy is just doing it as a way of trolling. As stated in my previous post, I don't want to "policy" lynch him based on him trolling, but I do want everyone to pay very close attention to him all game and sift through his bullshit in every post to find legitimate things.


My question to the rest of town about Sho: If it becomes impossible to distinguish between scummy or play style at any point in the game in regards to Sho, then what are we supposed to do with him? Ignoring possible scum because of his "play style" is a mistake just as much as policy lynching someone because of their "play style".

Since you all attacked me, I want to know what everyone thinks the best solution between that is. Do we lynch a player who is scummy all the time since we cannot figure out what is genuine, or do we ignore a player that could be possible scum all game simply because of his play style? It is a lose-lose situation in both aspects might I add. Now town, tell me what you think.

[Exalt]

@Exalt: Well please excuse my dear aunt sally...

Your last post actually made you look like a half decent player. However, you did misconstrue my statement. Empking's play style is inherently scummy. You would not lynch him unless that play style makes Empking look like scum. Well, it does. So, you would policy lynch Empking? Dunno. You have answered my question, but you seem to have left out a loop hole. Also, it is Meta that proves Empking is scummy regardless of alignment due to play style. I have none. So, I suppose your answer to the last question would be no, but put me in there, and it would be yes, until my meta builds up.

Okay, I can accept this.

Sho, I will put it this way. I am more than willing to ignore your play style and the disagreements that I may have with it as long as you continue to be cooperative in a manner that can help the town in whatever fashion that may be. My very recent post was made before reading your latest post, and so I will back off of you when I see your posts being responsive instead of purely argumentative over the math aspects of the game. If you are truely scum hunting, then I can have no complaints on your play style, and I will have none.

I have seen empking play, and you are not empking. You are not scummy in the way you put forth arguments, but more so the way you have the ability to distract from scum hunting. As long as I see you as genuinely trying to help town rather than trolling as I did before, then there is nothing for me to say, right? I can accept you just as you accept me then.

Does this answer things a little bit better?

[itacv2]

What would u like me to explain, i have just been reading and havent got any other reason to change vote whatsoever. I still think that using the whole jerk tone and saying it while evading to other topics could mean that indeed DDD is in fact scum. While the scope was on him, briefly, DDD was dodgy and managed to change the target from him. And why should i change my vote and bandwagon when there is little or close to none information or loose lead.

[Raivann]

@Raivann: Please answer my question to you on why your single and only post in the entire game is to say that I was trying too hard when I removed my vote. Since it was your only post of the game and since you voted me without explaining it, I'm asking that you do. How was I trying too hard, and in what way did it look scummy enough to deserve a vote.

No hard evidence, just a hunch.
My explanation was trying too hard, should have said to appear townie.
You also seem overly worried about my vote on you.

I'm sorry for saying I agree w/you ekiM.
It won't happen again.

[Santos]

@ Kise, sure. I was about to say that Exalt's link of Sho being a troll was just about to change my opinion of him, but having read Sho's explanation of his opinion on policy lynches is much more mature than the link leads you to believe.

[Kise]

Kise's Trap seemed like root-1. I mean, a self vote is null and gets as much conversation as a vote does in the RVS. I understand that much. What I don't understand is how someone attacking that (as it is a newer concept) is scummy or indicative of anti-town alignment.

Because ekiM [was the only one who] made a big deal out of my self-vote and tried to take the moral high ground against me.. He voted me because of what I did. Plus, the reason he gives does not click with me because it was already noted that I would be gone for a few days anyway, thus I would not be around to engage in convo & interaction, as he claimed I was going to deny him and the town

[Exalt]

No hard evidence, just a hunch.
My explanation was trying too hard, should have said to appear townie.
You also seem overly worried about my vote on you.

I'm sorry for saying I agree w/you ekiM.
It won't happen again.

I don't see how one vote would make me overly worried, but its whatever you wanna think I guess. I didn't realize me asking you a question to get you to produce some type of content other than a quick vote was showing I am worried. Maybe YOU are the one trying too hard to look town now

[Sho Minamimoto]

Kise's Trap seemed like root-1. I mean, a self vote is null and gets as much conversation as a vote does in the RVS. I understand that much. What I don't understand is how someone attacking that (as it is a newer concept) is scummy or indicative of anti-town alignment.

Because ekiM [was the only one who] made a big deal out of my self-vote and tried to take the moral high ground against me.. He voted me because of what I did. Plus, the reason he gives does not click with me because it was already noted that I would be gone for a few days anyway, thus I would not be around to engage in convo & interaction, as he claimed I was going to deny him and the town

Deny him and the town of what?

No hard evidence, just a hunch.
My explanation was trying too hard, should have said to appear townie.
You also seem overly worried about my vote on you.

I'm sorry for saying I agree w/you ekiM.
It won't happen again.

I don't see how one vote would make me overly worried, but its whatever you wanna think I guess. I didn't realize me asking you a question to get you to produce some type of content other than a quick vote was showing I am worried. Maybe YOU are the one trying too hard to look town now

I would like to note that the above is one of those overwhelmingly beautiful moments (outside of mathematics of course) where Exalt looks like a half decent player.

[Kise]

Self-voting in RVS is anti-town because it denies the town some interactions to work from. Any attempt to reduce the amount of information you're giving in the early game is scummy, because only scum have a motive for it.

[ZazieR]

As for Post 57
Not the self-vote trap thingy.
From my experience, it doesn''t work.
And it doesn''t make ekiM scummy.

Considering I regarded Frankie & ekiM as being in the same (scum) boat, it'll take some time before your viewpoint on ekiM's alignment is accepted.

Then why did you ask for Frankie (me) and ekiM to give their opinion on the other?

[ZazieR]

@Kise

You thought that ekiM and Frankie (me) were scum together, because we were both flying under the radar, according to you.
Who's the scum team now and why?

[ZazieR]

Post 84
Exalt, regarding the first bit about Sho, ekiM had a good comment about it. Can you comment on this quote?:

I find people playing with an affected persona obnoxious, but Sho obviously intended to post this way before he got his role PM so I don't see how it can possibly be scummy. I certainly won't support any sort of policy lynch based upon it.

Regarding Post 35
Is this scummy to you or not?
The ad hom is noted.

I'm not sure this question was toward me or not. Please say my name first because it is an open ended question. I guess I will explain it though either way. DDD was acting like a complete ass in his arrogance toward other players, and I told him to stop in so many words. I UNVOTED him because he was stacking up I think 3 or 4 votes at the time, and I wasn't about to keep my random vote on him simply because he was being so abrasive and arrogant. I guess some of you think it is scummy for me to remove my vote (Raivann), but I don't view it as such, and frankly I don't care what you think. I won't structure my vote habits around the opinions of players like Raivann simply to make myself look more "town" in his eyes. I unvoted because I don't see DDD as scum at the moment.

Perhaps I wasn't clear, but I was asking if DDD's response was scummy or not. See post 35 to see about which response from DDD I'm talking about as you comment on it in this post.

Exalt

, do you think Sho is scummy or not?
Because at some moments I have the impression you do. But at other moments, I don''t get this impression.

I'm very wishy washy on him at the moment. Sometimes I think it is just his play style that is just inherently scummy, while other times I get the feeling that he is doing it with more sinister goals in mind. I really don't know yet, but since I have opinions on both sides of the fence my vote stays for now. Simply put, your impressions of me are correct so far.

You're saying that Sho might have more sinister goals in mind with this playstyle. So can you explain how this playstyle would help Sho-scum?
And about which vote are you talking? You haven't voted anyone after you unvoted DDD.

[ZazieR]

@Sho

I said no more maths DIE!!!

Next, Post 51
Don''t like the question asked here and the same one from Post 45. It''s a very big stretch.

Why?

As stated by muzz, Frankie wasn't looking for scum. He was more focused on theory. So muzz asked him why he wasn't concentrating on scummy looking players. Yes, Frankie did talk about DDD, but only to say that his reactions were understandable. In other words, he was giving his opinion on a player who got attacked who he didn't see as scummy.
S when Muzz asked him why he wasn't looking for scummy players, Toro made this into a different argument against Muzz. Something muzz didn't say/ask.

[ZazieR]

My question to the rest of town about Sho: If it becomes impossible to distinguish between scummy or play style at any point in the game in regards to Sho, then what are we supposed to do with him? Ignoring possible scum because of his "play style" is a mistake just as much as policy lynching someone because of their "play style".

That is, if it does. His poststyle is annoying, but it isn't scummy. Those are two different things. But I'm not the one who may say a poststyle is annoying, as there are some players who say the same about mine.
Besides, there are lots of things to analyse in posts when we have more information. From those, you can see if something is scummy or not. Not from his playstyle.

Since you all attacked me, I want to know what everyone thinks the best solution between that is. Do we lynch a player who is scummy all the time since we cannot figure out what is genuine, or do we ignore a player that could be possible scum all game simply because of his play style? It is a lose-lose situation in both aspects might I add. Now town, tell me what you think.

Or you analyse his posts later on and if you think he acts scummy you show a case? If he acts scummy then, there might be players willing to lynch him.

Can you also re-explain why this isn't a policy lynch to you?