Mini 862 ~ Mafia of Order (Game Over!)

[VP Baltar]

Oh, and Juls, I was sleeping. Even legends need rest some times

[Sotty7]

Sorry guys I am sick/dying which has lead to the slacking. Trying to pick it up.

Juls post 74 makes me feel good about my vote on her. She takes the time to throw dirt on the Colbat claim while at the same looking for excuses to believe it. Classic fence sitting enabling to go either way depending.

I'm not lynching Cobalt based off what I've seen so far and Sens makes me want to /headdesk until my brains leak from my ears, but he's probably town as well. I'm comfortable with my vote where it is.

This.

I could also switch my vote to VP now after reading post 78 where he makes pretty lame excuses for unvoting Colbat while still trying to portray him as scummy/VI.

[Cobalt]

That being said, Cobalt's sensitivity to being voted should be noted, nor do I like his attempt to divert town away from any potential 3rd party by saying its no concern of town or the fact that he is spending a ton of posts to say essentially nothing. His defense is a bit much for the mild pressure that is on him, though I don't have any experience with him, so I can't say if this is coming from scum or town.

I don't see why this is so hard to understand. As town, we ignore 3rd party. We don't care. They are completely irrelevant. The mafia is the only target we have.

I agree with Sens that Cobalt's softclaims are complete BS, especially after he already said that he has a fakeclaim. I have no knowledge of the theme, so his claim means nothing. Also, if you were so powerful, why would you claim so readily? And if you have fakeclaims to protect how awesomely powerful you are, why not use one of those first? That doens't make sense to me.

Why would I lie to the town? Especially, why would I lie to the town after engineering a bandwagon on myself? The reason for this play is that my claim is unassailable, so I decided to use that to catch scum who would hop on a me-wagon with poor reasoning.

I did? please quote. What actually happened is that you and cobalt took all kinds of inferences from one line where I said if Sens is telling the truth, Cobalt should probably be lynched and then extrapolated them into a grand theory about how I'm psychotically trying to get cobalt lynched. Your ridiculously over the top defense of Cobalt is starting to grate on me though.

Are you reading my posts at all? That's not even close to what I said. Go back and read it again. I'm voting you because you made a statement that shows you don't have the motives of a player with the town win condition.

Sens makes valid points about a Lyncher. Cobalt attempts to deflect these with outguess the mod "what if the lynchee is mafia". I'm sure Goat thinks this is a good argument.

I'm not playing outguess the mod, Sens is by bringing in hypothetical third parties. I proved that any third parties can't have factional wincons and should therefore be ignored.

I'm annoyed that this argument has basically been 4 people. I'm more annoyed that half the people who signed up for this game seem to be entirely ignorant of the flavor. Just my name claim is enough to make me confirmed

*cut* ~Vi

[Locke Lamora]

First of all, outguessing the mod in this game is a terrible idea. Nobody should be doing it.

VP: no, you pointed out what you thought the advantages for scum were of claiming post counts early. I don't think you gave a balanced view of the advantages and disadvantages of claiming, you just said it all favours scum and then voted Cobalt for being eager to know numbers. Do you think that the advantages for town stated by Cobalt are simply incorrect? Also, how do you reconcile Cobalt being a VI with the strong doubts you express at the end of 78 about the softclaims?

Cobalt: why did you claim as quickly as you did?

[Cobalt]

locke: a) I was at L-2
b) sens asked for a claim, and he's the only one I have a solid town read on

[SensFan]

Sens makes valid points about a Lyncher. Cobalt attempts to deflect these with outguess the mod "what if the lynchee is mafia". I'm sure Goat thinks this is a good argument.

I'm not playing outguess the mod, Sens is by bringing in hypothetical third parties. I proved that any third parties can't have factional wincons and should therefore be ignored.

I'm not outguessing the Mod at all, are you reading my posts? I have INFORMATION that there is a third party here. No hypothetical scenarios here, I know it to be true.
And you haven't proved shit, Cobalt. You've deflected every possibility that this is a 'race' of sorts. You seem to think that because us killing the 'Mafia' (which is a term that is rather vague anyways) means we win removes the chance that there could be someone (or some people) out there that can win before us, ending the game.

[Cobalt]

Wait, that ISN'T what you said. You said you had information that you _think_ there are 3 win conditions. That doesn't mean there's a third party. It doesn't mean all 3 wincons are factional. Why are you saying something different now? Before you weren't even sure your information was correct, and now you think it's solid proof of a third party?
Also, no, Sens, you're wrong. It's simple linguistics and grammar. The town win condition says kill all the mafia players to win. If there was any 3rd party win condition, it would have to be individual OR require that some mafia members be alive to trigger. Otherwise, there would be a chance that the town wincon and this 3rd party wincon could trigger at the same time, leaving the game over with 2 factional win conditions fulfilled. This would be a broken game. I don't know why this is so hard for you to understand. Also, why did you not comment on my full claim after pushing hard for it?

Vi: you cut off one of my recent posts. I assume this was due to it being over 450 words: however, I copy-pasted that post into Word and got only 408 words. This was including all code and words in quotes. What gives, eh?

Blame this~ ~Vi

[SensFan]

Wait, that ISN'T what you said. You said you had information that you _think_ there are 3 win conditions. That doesn't mean there's a third party. It doesn't mean all 3 wincons are factional. Why are you saying something different now? Before you weren't even sure your information was correct, and now you think it's solid proof of a third party?
Also, no, Sens, you're wrong. It's simple linguistics and grammar. The town win condition says kill all the mafia players to win. If there was any 3rd party win condition, it would have to be individual OR require that some mafia members be alive to trigger. Otherwise, there would be a chance that the town wincon and this 3rd party wincon could trigger at the same time, leaving the game over with 2 factional win conditions fulfilled. This would be a broken game. I don't know why this is so hard for you to understand. Also, why did you not comment on my full claim after pushing hard for it?

I

think

there are 3 wincons, just like a Cop thinks he's Sane. I'm going to be acting on the assumption there are 3 wincons.
And based on the fact there are 3 win conditions, there is "Kill all Mafia" "Control the town" and "SOMETHING ELSE". The fact you assume that that something else can't take precedence over the Town wincon is ludicrous. I don't understand why its impossible there is a Jester/Lyncher/'NK-magnet' or something else that could win before the Mafia die

and cause the game to end on the spot.

In fact, I know its not impossible.
Hell, maybe there's an SK whose flavour is that he's a "Mafia Rogue" or something like that, and so needs to die for the Town's wincon.

[DTMaster]

@Town
If Colbalt's claim is true then

do not vote him

. Flavour wise: Miciah is the priestess of Yune.

Also her having fake claims make sense since she has various titles throughout the game and has diffrent personas/represent diffrent in game factions but ultimately is a part of the main cast. (I hate using her since she's so meh compared to the other mages but her personal tomes makes up for it. Plus the Brigade fails with low levels when Ike's party has good growths like them :<)Your A-Ability (which I want to assume is called Sacrafice) mirrors what Miciah can do in game. Flavour text fits.

@Sens
While yes in normal mafia: flavour has nothing to do with the game, in theme it works as a base to help sift through targets. The only issue comes with fake-claims and if scum has it. Which of course comes with the issue of Colbalt. Flavour wise I can reason everything he is from the character he says he is.

Also what about survivor. In this case it would be best to ignore the 3rd party completely since a survivor lynch is wasted.

@Goat
66: If there are 3rd parties it should be read: all anti-town factions.

@KMD
Why aren't you questioning then? Follow up work involves pressing, and questioning is one of them.

Also

Unvote

Vote: Debonair Danny DiPietro

I want to hear more from you since you only posted twice with little content. Your scum list please, and other relavent thoughts with the current relevations.

[SensFan]

Also what about survivor. In this case it would be best to ignore the 3rd party completely since a survivor lynch is wasted.

A Survivor might as well be Scum, and has got to be lynched.

[Goatrevolt]

He attacked VP Baltar because VP Baltar wanted to lynch him because Baltar thought he was 3rd party despite that not being relevant to the town win condition.

I did? please quote. What actually happened is that you and cobalt took all kinds of inferences from one line where I said if Sens is telling the truth, Cobalt should probably be lynched and then extrapolated them into a grand theory about how I'm psychotically trying to get cobalt lynched. Your ridiculously over the top defense of Cobalt is starting to grate on me though.

Good. I would prefer to not have to be "ridiculously" over the top, but I'm not going to stand for someone I believe to be town getting lynched for frivolous reasons. If that is a problem to you, please let me know why it is problematic, and maybe we can seek to resolve it. Thanks.

Sens makes valid points about a Lyncher. Cobalt attempts to deflect these with outguess the mod "what if the lynchee is mafia". I'm sure Goat thinks this is a good argument.

Cut the Ad homs right now. I really don't have the patience to deal with you harassing everything I say with misreps or trying to pigeonhole me into stances or other crap like that. If you have a problem with any of my stances, feel free to step up and say so, but stop taking pot-shots at me from the sidelines.

It's a bad argument, but the original argument is just as bad. Really, a lyncher? If your theory has to resort to making up potential 3rd party roles to keep the pressure on then maybe it's time you dropped it, am I wrong? How about we don't worry about any 3rd party roles unless we actually have reason to.

This game is turning into a bad theory discussion. Here is a simple point.

We don't know what the 3rd party is, so we should probably stop worrying about it until we do

. We're doing what's equivalent to "hunting for the SK" before we even know there is a SK in the game.

Let's stick to the mafia. It's what we need to do to win.

IF

we encounter a 3rd party along the way that is detrimental to our win condition, then we can deal with it. All this baseless speculation is nuts, and unhelpful.

I'm keeping my vote on KMD.

[Juls]

Juls post 74 makes me feel good about my vote on her. She takes the time to throw dirt on the Colbat claim while at the same looking for excuses to believe it. Classic fence sitting enabling to go either way depending.

Sotty, this is redonkulous. I think your dying/sickness is effecting you here. Cobalt was well on his/her way to being lynched and I certainly want to ere on the side of caution here when it comes to someone claiming a powerrole and giving two names. I was posting and thinking at the same time (yes, I am talented) and on the one hand I noted that it would be pretty ballsy as scum to give two names on the off chance that no one had these supposed big names but on the other hand he could be using his partners fake claim as well. Either way, I need to review the flavor to figure out which I lean more toward. Further, you voted me as a joke vote I thought? So your joke vote turned into super serious mode? How convienant...

[Vi]

The Imperial Prime Minister Sephiran casts a grim eye on dishonesty. If he finds out what has been going on in Daein under our rule...

Vote Count:

Cobalt (L-4) ~

VP Baltar,

SensFan, Kmd4390, a cold starry night
VP Baltar (L-4) ~ Debonair Danny DiPietro, Locke Lamora, Cobalt

Kmd4390 (L-6) ~ Goatrevolt,

DTMaster

Juls (L-6) ~ Sotty7
a cold starry night (L-6) ~ VP Baltar
Debonair Danny DiPietro (L-6) ~ DTMaster

Not Voting:

fuzzylightning, Juls

--With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
--Deadline is Saturday, October 17 2009.

(8 days left)

Post Count:

a cold starry night - 5
Cobalt - 18
Debonair Danny DiPietro - 2
DTMaster - 4
fuzzylightning - 4
Goatrevolt - 8
Juls - 4
Kmd4390 - 5
Locke Lamora - 2
SensFan - 15
Sotty7 - 2
VP Baltar - 7

[Cobalt]

Juls post 74 makes me feel good about my vote on her. She takes the time to throw dirt on the Colbat claim while at the same looking for excuses to believe it. Classic fence sitting enabling to go either way depending.

Sotty, this is redonkulous. I think your dying/sickness is effecting you here. Cobalt was well on his/her way to being lynched and I certainly want to ere on the side of caution here when it comes to someone claiming a powerrole and giving two names. I was posting and thinking at the same time (yes, I am talented) and on the one hand I noted that it would be pretty ballsy as scum to give two names on the off chance that no one had these supposed big names but on the other hand he could be using his partners fake claim as well. Either way, I need to review the flavor to figure out which I lean more toward. Further, you voted me as a joke vote I thought? So your joke vote turned into super serious mode? How convienant...

lol, are you suggesting I'm using Micaiah as a falseclaim? She's the protagonist. The main character. Her motivations and actions drive the story. I dunno how else to put this. It's like claiming Odysseus in an

Odyssey

themed game. It's claiming Mario in a Paper Mario game. It's claiming mith in a "Founders of Mafiascum" game. This should be the most obvious role in the whole character list. Also, why haven't you taken the 3 minutes it would require to read the wikipedia page yet?

Please note, guys, it's C-O-B-A-L-T. As in, the element. Not Colbat. Not Colbalt. Cobalt.

sotty, you're a smart guy, why don't you help me wagon VP? Juls can wait while we let her keep sitting on her fence. VP made a more obvious slip.

[SensFan]

You seem to think your claim clears you.
Should I direct you to the Harry Potter game where Harry, Ron, and Hermione were the Scum?
What about the OOTS game where Varsuuvius (one of the main protagonists) was given as a fakeclaim to Scum?
What about the game where the only scumgroup was called 'Mafia B'?

Stop trying to game the Mod. Stop trying to assume you know exactly what 'Mafia' means in the Town win condition. Stop trying to pretend that whoever the hell you claimed must be Town.

[Cobalt]

Um, did you read the intro? The Knights of Guidance, the good guys in the game, are the town. Why are you accusing me of gaming the mod when I'm going off info in MY ROLE PM?

[SensFan]

Um, did you read the intro? The Knights of Guidance, the good guys in the game, are the town. Why are you accusing me of gaming the mod when I'm going off info in MY ROLE PM?

I don't know what a Knight of Guidance is.
The fact these Knights are possibly Town doesn't mean that you aren't. Or did I miss the line where it tells me that Mawhatever is Town and has been given a fakeclaim solely to make him look scummier?

[fuzzylightning]

First off, I believe Cobalt's claim, it makes sense with flavor and I can understand why he was given the possibility of a fake claim and a safe claim.

Sens, you are being completely ridiculous regarding the 3rd party. As was stated earlier, we should not be worrying about the third party until we know that it exists and what it is, and what its win condition could possibly be.

VP, when you ask me questions, wouldn't it make sense that I answer them? With that said, why would you attack me for posting "a lot" with few posts right after I answer those questions? Why do you believe that Cobalt is a VI?

Vote: VP Baltar

, something about the way he is playing just irks me. He is very quick to judge other players and jumps on them when they do something that he questions with marginal reasoning.

[Locke Lamora]

Cobalt and Sens should stop arguing over Micaiah and third parties. It's not getting us anywhere and it's wasting posts. The speculation is pointless and it's turning into a circular theory debate.

Fuzzy: your vote on VP seems to be based on his aggressive playstyle. Do you think that being 'quick to judge' is a scumtell? Where, specifically, have you found VP's approach to be scummy, other than his remarks about you?

DTMaster: what do you mean, 'if Cobalt's claim is true'? If we knew whether Cobalt's claim was true or not, I think it would make voting a much easier decision. Is Cobalt definitely town for you?

[VP Baltar]

if you were so powerful, why would you claim so readily? And if you have fakeclaims to protect how awesomely powerful you are, why not use one of those first? That doens't make sense to me.

^Please answer these Cobalt.

Do you think that the advantages for town stated by Cobalt are simply incorrect?

Yes, frankly, but it doesn't much matter now that most people have claimed theirs. I still think it would be easier for scum to lie up front about posts rather than later.

how do you reconcile Cobalt being a VI with the strong doubts you express at the end of 78 about the softclaims?

I'm not sure. The two reasons he listed aren't much for reasons toward claiming this early in the game if he's such a major power role. It still doesn't make sense to me, but not much he has said this game has. Right now, I'm more inclined to let him prove his ability by giving posts to a group assigned target over night. That way we can at least tell if he is lying about that or not.

@GR-look up what Ad homs are. There wasn't any ad homs in anything you quoted. I think Cobalt has said some pretty poorly thought out theories so far in this game, and you seem willing to back him on those, that's all I was saying. I'm entitled to my opinion. That being said, you're right about the theory discussion thing and I think it is time we move on. What are your thoughts on A Cold Starry Night?

VP, when you ask me questions, wouldn't it make sense that I answer them? With that said, why would you attack me for posting "a lot" with few posts right after I answer those questions? Why do you believe that Cobalt is a VI?

It would make more sense if you actually made good use of your posts instead of posting 100 words and saying essentially nothing. Defend yourself, sure, but you also have to actively try to figure out who the scum are.

Cobalt is a VI because he says things like "OMG I'M MACKALACKA, THEREFORE I'M OBV TOWN" and "TOWN SHOULDN'T LYNCH THIRD PARTIES".

As far as my playstyle, please tell me what is scummy about questioning players?

[VP Baltar]

and more ACSN votes, please.

[Sotty7]

Further, you voted me as a joke vote I thought? So your joke vote turned into super serious mode? How convienant...

No I voted you to start an early wagon. Votes turn serious when people do scummy things. Am I supposed to just give you a reprieve because you were my first vote of the game?

Also, have you reviewed the claim yet? What do you think now?

@Cobalt: I can roll with a VP vote, sure. They both did the same thing near enough.

Unvote, Vote: VP

^ lynch -2 at my count.

[Vi]

Right now, when they look at me, they have love and affection in their eyes, but would they look at me the same way if they knew? I don't want to find out, Sothe. I don't think I could bear the truth.

Vote Count:

VP Baltar (L-2) ~ Debonair Danny DiPietro, Locke Lamora, Cobalt, fuzzylightning, Sotty7

Cobalt (L-4) ~ SensFan, Kmd4390, a cold starry night
Kmd4390 (L-6) ~ Goatrevolt
a cold starry night (L-6) ~ VP Baltar
Debonair Danny DiPietro (L-6) ~ DTMaster

Juls (L-7) ~

Sotty7

Not Voting:

fuzzylightning,

Juls

--With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
--Deadline is Saturday, October 17 2009.

(7 days left)

Post Count:

a cold starry night - 5
Cobalt - 20
Debonair Danny DiPietro - 2
DTMaster - 4
fuzzylightning - 5
Goatrevolt - 8
Juls - 4
Kmd4390 - 5
Locke Lamora - 3
SensFan - 17
Sotty7 - 3
VP Baltar - 8

[Juls]

Also, have you reviewed the claim yet? What do you think now?

Yes I have and am inclined to believe Cobalt at this point. It's very difficult to get a feel for how townie a role name is when you aren't familiar with the subject matter but it seems to me Micaiah is the lead character. Cobalt's role is kinda weak though for such a strong character. It makes sense flavor wise (by what I read) but he is also burning through posts like a mad person.

Right now I think I have more town reads on people than I do scum people which is good because it narrows the field. I won't go into those at the moment because it only helps scum. I will say with regards to VP, I have a neutral read on him and the fact he is at L-2 gives me pause.

Two on the top of my list for scum are Sotty and DTMaster. DTMaster is admittedly mostly gut based on the way he words his post. By talking about Sotty I am running the risk of being accused of OMGUS but I don't really care. Two things strike me with Sotty. First, the way she is hopping around and piggybacking with an agressor mentality is reminiscent of when she was scum in our last Vi hosted game. Second, she is providing little in the way of personal analysis and is just piggybacking other thoughts.

Vote: Sotty

[Cobalt]

VP wrote:
if you were so powerful, why would you claim so readily? And if you have fakeclaims to protect how awesomely powerful you are, why not use one of those first? That doens't make sense to me.


^Please answer these Cobalt.

I believe I already did, but I will reiterate. I'm not that powerful at all: I'm just verifiable and impossible to counterclaim. I have 1 fakeclaim, and I didn't use it because I engineered this bandwagon specifically because my claim makes me confirmed town. Claiming vanilla Leonardo after acting scummy and getting run up would have meant getting lynched on page 3.

Cobalt is a VI because he says things like "OMG I'M MACKALACKA, THEREFORE I'M OBV TOWN" and "TOWN SHOULDN'T LYNCH THIRD PARTIES".

Both of these things are true.

juls, keep ridin' that fence, babe. Everyone notice how she posted 1 sentence about the VP wagon at lynch -2 but a full paragraph attacking sotty, the person who last attacked VP?

gonna post less often so I don't get capped out.
I was already going to use my power to prove myself tonight.