Newbie 865 - Game over!

[tracker]

unvote

qax i think you did the right thing on both occasions, I still can't figure out why Sirpent claimed cop to begin with, and it's made me reconsider how I play the game, I've hinted that I've found IKD scummy the whole game but I after the fake cop claim I've gotten sidetracked.

however, after Sirpent's actions I must ask you this;

Are you 100% serious about you claim and results?

there are two reasons I find myself needing to ask this, the first of which is that I've hinted that I've found IKD scummy, you could be a scum hoping to come in at this point and play off of the suspicions I have announced and slip by with a win in lylo tommorow, the second of which is Sirpents claim.

After you answer, I will place my vote

[qax42]

@

tracker

:

qax i think you did the right thing on both occasions, I still can't figure out why Sirpent claimed cop to begin with, and it's made me reconsider how I play the game, I've hinted that I've found IKD scummy the whole game but I after the fake cop claim I've gotten sidetracked.

OK.

however, after Sirpent's actions I must ask you this;

Are you 100% serious about you claim and results?

Yes. I'm not some kind of lumbering buffoon.

there are two reasons I find myself needing to ask this, the first of which is that I've hinted that I've found IKD scummy, you could be a scum hoping to come in at this point and play off of the suspicions I have announced and slip by with a win in lylo tommorow

Asking me isn't going to make me claim scum now, is it?

the second of which is Sirpents claim.

After you answer, I will place my vote

Recall the aforementioned "lumbering buffoon" bit.

I mean I'm personally a little disappointed that I joined into a solved game. This was a fun game to read, and I was hoping to do some good scumhunting (well, more than what I've already done).

My question to you is: even if you're not 100% about my claim, what is your thoughts on the PBPA given your suspicions?

[Toon Fighter]

ikd, say something! Defend yourself! Why did you get so inactive after qax42 accused you? If you were town you would have counterclaimed, so I'm very inclined to believe qax42. Also, you were very active before his accusation, and you never posted afterwards.

I would like to see you defend yourself before I hammer or not... But if you don't post before Monday 23h59, I will hammer you.

[tracker]

I was planning on hammering today except that I really didn't get on and I suppose TF is right and we should at least give him a chance to post something. IKD either defend yourself against these overwhelming charges and die honorably or we'll have to lynch while you lurk.

[imkingdavid]

Responses in green.

Hello! Analysis is ready—I was almost through reading before I got the confirmation PM because the game was really interesting.

@

Town

:

Vote: imkingdavid

Someone please unvote SirPent because imkingdavid will hammer and SirPent will flip town.

Actually, everyone had had ample opportunity, including myself, to hammer and haven't. I am trying to keep the day going instead of end discussion. Also, it's not only in my power to hammer.

Long WoT approaching. There's a TL;DR at the bottom for the uninterested.To clarify, when I say "town" I mean the general populace of the proverbial town, with no allusions to role or alignment.

I claim Cop. I get one investigation a night, am sane and can be roleblocked. I'm not 100% sure if that ensures a mafia roleblocker or not. Mod-confirmed sanity check.

Only way to confirm a roleblocker is to lynch one. Mods usually like to cover all their bases whether or not there actually is a certain role.

N1 Canada investigated tracker, who is confirmed town, but nothing on his role. N2 Hercule Poirot never submitted an action, so the Mod randomly picked imkingdavid and returned a positive result.

And why should we believe you? We already see what happened last time we listened to a claimed cop.

I don't necessarily expect anyone to believe me after the shit storm that was SirPent's behavior since replacing in, so it's a good thing that imkingdavid was my number one scum candidate since the early pages. Here is a breakdown of his scummiest posts:

Post numbers in this format: (actual)/(isolation)

#53/11: Votes RPG based on some very questionable meta. Self-proclaimed weak and unnecessary vote—FoS would have sufficed on such a weak argument.

Nothing came of the vote, and discussion started. FoS would not have initiated any discussion at all. Are you pro or anti-discussion?

#83/19: Votes Toon Fighter for lurking. Another weak vote.

Pressure votes encourage activity. I did not foresee a lynch at that time, so there was no cause for concern. Had a wagon built up based on his inactivity, I would have unvoted, simply because I am against Lynch All Lurkers.

#84/20:

So are you admitting to talking to your scum buddy this time around?

That is

extremely

scummy. Holy crap. The line of logic is absolutely flawed, and as it stands that is just putting words in RPG's mouth. Furthermore, any experienced played should know this.

I was clarifying his wording in his post.

This is later followed by:

This is an interesting piece of evidence here. I understand that this could have been an innocent unintentional use of words but it also could be a Freudian slip. If so it suggests that

(1)RPG is scum;
(2)RPG's scumpartner is one of the people he has not interacted with yet.

This is one confirmed scum riding on the back of a weak argument by his partner and giving it apparent merit.

So because the confirmed scum supported what I said, I must be scum? Sounds more like a newbie scum player trying to look pro-town by supporting the more experienced players. Doesn't make me scum.

#98/21: Unvote the wrong person. More evidence of throwing the vote around in an anti-town way.

As I have said, I have performed just as erratically in other games in which I am now seen as town. One of my flaws is that I don't pay attention sometimes, or I forget when I change a vote sometimes. I've done it as town, and I think I did it as scum the one time I was scum (if my memory serves me right).

#103/22:

To be entirely truthful, it is mostly instinctual gut feelings based on what I remember from your meta. like I said above, I'll take some time to actually compare the two games. Sorry if it's a null tell. But it did get some discussion, did it not?

So you admit to making a hasty vote, but then it almost seems like you try to justify it by saying it got discussion?

Yep.

Speaks for itself.

Yes, it was a rather hasty vote, and it got discussion. So?

#104/23: Re-votes TF. More voting confusion.

See above. I've done worse in other games just because I didn't pay enough attention. I really am trying to work on that.

#125/28: More misunderstandings. This one in particular is not scummy by itself, but together with the general play, it is more scummy than not.

As I said in that post, it was a misunderstanding, since I misread what he said. It wasn't a difficult mistake to make.

#142/31, 156/32: Begins to distance himself from Neo-con John after strong arguments put forth primarily by PaltryExcuse and tracker. Note how #142/31 just piggy-backs on existing arguments, and #156/32 seems to be an expansion on the "NCJ is not there anymore"-argument. The post is filled primarily with speculative observation.

Kind of hard to add all new material sometimes. However, rather than go inactive, I decided it best to at least show my support. And what's wrong with the expansion?
Also, since when are speculating and observing scummy?

There is this:

But we still have a good amount of time until deadline and discussion is still going.

Pressuring people to avoid the hammer until he can mount a defense, or buying time to let NCJ do so? Or it could be that he's working on trying to push someone else, probably tracker, back into the limelight and save his scumbuddy.

Looking back, I can see how that might appear that I was just trying to buy time. However, I had my vote on NCJ, not tracker. If I had found tracker more scummy than NCJ, I would have had my vote on him.

It worked (though, with a different lynchee):

Honestly, I don't think much of it at all. I was ready to hammer tracker until 1, I though I was being replaced and then 2, IKD posted. I'll have to look over Neo-Con John's posts and the case against him again.

I'm just saying it didn't seem like a good idea to hammer immediately after someone points out we still have plenty of time.

This read to me like newbie taking the word of an IC who, it seems, used his experience to influence people.

That's the point of an IC. Use your experience to help new players. And I guess to a point, experience always influences someone. Null tell.

It ends with:

As a side note, I, by policy, do not like to try and look for scum partners and links between people until we know who one of the scum is. In order to not detract from the current discussion, I will refrain from posting why, unless someone doesn't understand how it can be a bad thing.

Reads a bit like an IC using his experience to try further distancing himself from the target, again.

So you disagree with my thought process? If so, by all means let me know why I'm wrong and then I will present why I think I'm right. Like I said sometime near the start of the game, I'm not God. I have my own opinions of how the game is run. If someone disagrees, they are more than welcome to let me know and we can discuss it. That's the point of a newbie game; to let people figure out what they do and do not agree is good gameplay.
So if you disagree, let me know. If you agree, then why is this post a problem?

#162/33: Finally votes NCJ when it looks clear that there's no alternative.

I was allowing him time to respond and see if he could defend himself against the accusations. He didn't and I found that along with the accusations to be overwhelmingly scummy. So, I put my vote where I thought would be the best place for it. And I was right. How is this scummy?

#175/35:

This post sounds like a lot of "I don't really care much about who gets lynched, I just want the day to end, but I don't want to draw attention to myself by ending after someone points out that it might not be beneficial to do so." Which is definitely NOT pro-town.

I don't think it reads like that at all. It reads like someone who, with a combination of advice from an IC, a mod mistake and general inexperience got confused. Not that hammering tracker is a good idea in hindsight, but he did play quite a scummy game if you remove imkingdavid and Neo-con John from the game.

What's the mod mistake you are referring to? o.O And that's how the post read for me, so that's what I posted. If you see it as something different, that's your opinion, and you're welcome to point it out.

Post ends with a FoS on Gayle. I guess now that the town is committed to voting Neo-con John, it's too late to throw the vote around like earlier.

Vote = I want him lynched. FoS = there are two scum in the game, so lets keep an eye on more than just the one. No need to change my vote because I'm happy with it.

#192/36:

Ok, at this point it looks like it's down to tracker or NCJ for a lynch unless we have a last minute wagon in the next few days. Or if we don't come to an agreement, it's No Lynch. So everyone needs to make a decision before deadline or we'll basically waste a day.

Yet some more pushing of other options. Still pushing tracker, brings up the no-lynch idea again and is trying to create confusion.

Wha...? Are you really confused after reading that post? I was laying out the facts. tracker and NCJ were the top two, but I was making sure people realized that if we didn't reach a majority it would be a no lynch. I wasn't showing support of a no lynch.

That post was meant to make people choose sides. Wasn't trying to confuse anyone, and I don't see anyone who was confused by it.

#200/38:

Having 3 different votes and 2 different FoS's by page 8 is hardly a reason for suspicion. It shows that I'm looking around and weighing possible options. If I had, say, 5 or 6 different baseless votes by now and was throwing suspicion at every person without much consistency, then there might be a cause of concern.

Actually, this is a cause for concern. There have been 5 people you've thrown suspicion on, almost all of which was done via very little analysis or others' analyis. Cause Of Concern.

Actually, I think I've shown suspicion for almost everyone in the game. That's because as a town, we don't know who is the remaining scum, and by focusing on one person, we let them slip by if that's not the right person. No "Cause Of Concern."

We're going to take a sidebar into my predecessor, Hercule Poirot's posts for a second. I normally wouldn't explain my predecessors actions, but it highlights some interesting things.

#221 (Hercule Poirot): States that he considers tracker innocent—this is a cop signaling. He follows with some really flawed vote analysis, but then gives a nice:

How good do you think our odds of winning this game are?

Of course, it would be very rude of me to ask that without answering.
I'll say, 97%. Unless something goes horribly wrong, I'm sure we can win this.

I guess he was correct. I'll say the "horribly wrong" is that I'm unable to make you guys believe my roleclaim before we make a lynch decision tomorrow.

#231: Hercule Poirot's odd Sherlock Holmes gambit to out a fake cop roleclaim. He knows that one mafia member is down, he's already got a confirmed innocent on tracker, who can confirm him (no chance of being scum buddies in this setup). This is a pretty poor ploy because essentially he's rolefishing and you get idiots like SirPent who ruin everything. Newbie play.

OK, we're at the point where the shit hits the fan.

#268: SirPent just fakeclaimed cop and voted Gayle. In my reading I assumed this was a joke vote for quite a few posts. I can't believe anybody took this seriously. Every single one of his posts after that until the most recent has been of a troll (Gayle caught that one: #283). One that ruined the game, I'm afraid.

#284: tracker voted Gayle, which, as a semi-experienced player, blows my mind. I can't believe that anyone would fall from that. If there were three guaranteed scum, I didn't have a guaranteed town confirmation and tomorrow wasn't LyLo, I'd be pushing hard for back-to-back imkingdavid and tracker lynches.

So if we just decided that both tracker and I are scummy for it but we only have 1 remaining scum, why are you still using it as "evidence"? It shows that even town players can do something that may seem scummy.
In any case, when someone makes a role claim, I try to take it seriously. Yes, it's regrettable that SP has basically screwed up the game for us with his fake cop claim, but at the time I provided my reasoning behind the vote, and I voted. I did what I thought was best. And as I pointed out, now realize that a much better choice would have been to lynch SP instead of Gayle. But hindsight is 20/20, and we can't go back, now can we?

#285/45: One hour after tracker, imkingdavid swoops in to vote Gayle. Looks like less of a muppet now that he's followed tracker. No IC should ever put a vote on such a terrible claim.

I had had no time to really post anything until then. If you will notice my other posts, I pointed out that I found the claim scummy, and it just happened that I had voted after tracker. It wasn't as a piggy back. If tracker hadn't voted before me, I would have still voted. Also, as you'll notice, I even then did not wish to push the lynch just yet so that we could get some discussion. But then Gayle decided to screw us over and self-hammer (which you should never do, btw).

#288: Gayle self-votes. Terrible idea, though I understand the frustration. Never self-vote unless it guarantees town win.

Agreed.

#289/290: Both Toon Fighter and PaltryExcuse pick up on tracker and imkingdavid's ridiculous votes.

...

#291:

I just didn't like gayle. :p I really Didn't excpect that to pick up so much steam and a quick lynch, the real scum if I didn't guess correctly on gayle, lies between ikd and tracker.

I probably wouldn't have joined the game if I had read this far before I got my confirmation PM. Or, well, if I knew that I was going to be a cop with a confirmed hit on the last mafia member already. Too easy.

Mighty convenient to join in and have "the answer" to the game, eh? And you try build on the current confusion caused by the previous cop claim with your own claim. I see no reason to believe you and more than I now see to have believed SP. I hope we don't as a town make the same mistake again.

#300/47: imkingdavid tries to explain his actions. Very scummy explanation with a lot of apologies because of poor judgement, a recurring theme. Especially with:

Sorry. Oh wait, I just apologized. = scum. Ok, read this post, and this post (not the whole thing, since it's rather long). They are both me as town. So apologies aren't inherently scummy. I try to apologize when I screw up, which is more than I can say about some people.

s far as SP is concerned, here's my take on it. It would be complete idiocy to make such a claim that early on in the game as scum. On the same token, it would but just as stupid to make the claim as cop, especially since we just found out that he was lying if he was either scum or cop. So either he just doesn't care about the game and is screwing us over to give the scum an easy win, or he's being overly scummy on purpose to make us think he's not scum

Why is this being presented now, after you were responsible for getting Gayle lynched?

You can't put all the blame on me, although I do admit I did misjudge when I voted. However, tracker and gayle and SP were also responsible for his lynch. I'm not trying to shift all the blame, but I'm just finding it odd that you find it necessary to focus on one person. Maybe my blunder is more significant because I'm IC, but you can't disregard the others.

#315/51:

I am tempted to hammer as it is, but given that the day is only just beginning and we need to wait for a HP replacement (and I'd like to hear his/her take on things before we move on), I will not do so.

"Tempted to hammer"? Another quicklynch? No, this time there's an explanation that there will be some forethought, probably to avoid Toon Fighter jumping on him again.

So now forethought is scummy? Would you rather I had hammered?

@

imkingdavid

:

I assume you realize the statements about you throwing your IC weight around aren't personal—I'd do the exact same thing in your situation, probably. Though maybe a little subtler!

I try not to let IC get in the way of my play. I understand that new players will naturally be influenced by the more experienced players, but even still I am just as much a player in the game as anyone else is.

TL;DR

:

I'm a sane cop, confirmed imkingdavid as scum N2, and have shown he's played a scummy game anyway and has buddied with Neo-con John while he was alive. Tracker confirmed innocent N1. SirPent is basically a troll, and I'll actively avoid games with him in future.

Since I don't expect everyone in the town to believe me after SirPent's actions, I have presented a PBPA of imkingdavid highlighting a lot of scummy behavior.

Someone unvote SirPent to take him off L-1 before imkingdavid can make good on his hammer threat, at least until my case can be discussed.

That area tag

is

cool.

Alright, there's my defense. I tried to respond to everything that begged a response, and I think my points are sound, so I would appreciate it if you would respond to all of it (no picking and choosing, please).

[Elmo]

Day 3, Vote Count #2

imkingdavid (2) <- qax42, SirPent

Not voting: imkingdavid, Toon Fighter, tracker

The

deadline

is Sunday, 27th December 20:00 UTC, which is 12 days, 19 hours and 58 minutes from this post. If deadline hits, there will be No Lynch.
With 5 alive, it's 3 to lynch.

SirPent has been banned from the site, so I'm looking for a replacement for him.

[tracker]

All right, I actually read the this whole thing, and IKD, you haven't convinced me otherwise yet, my responces in red.

because I dislike WOT, I'm going to try and shorten this one.

Responses in green.

Someone please unvote SirPent because imkingdavid will hammer and SirPent will flip town.

Actually, everyone had had ample opportunity, including myself, to hammer and haven't. I am trying to keep the day going instead of end discussion. Also, it's not only in my power to hammer.

Hammering this early in the day is suspicious, even with Sirpent's previous actions, we were giving him a chance to defend himself, like we're giving you chance to defend yourself.

I claim Cop. I get one investigation a night, am sane and can be roleblocked. I'm not 100% sure if that ensures a mafia roleblocker or not. Mod-confirmed sanity check.

Only way to confirm a roleblocker is to lynch one. Mods usually like to cover all their bases whether or not there actually is a certain role.

actually we can confirm the presence of a roleblocker, if qax is cop, and a doctor appears that confirms the presence of a roleblocker, come on IKD don't you know the set-up?

N1 Canada investigated tracker, who is confirmed town, but nothing on his role. N2 Hercule Poirot never submitted an action, so the Mod randomly picked imkingdavid and returned a positive result.

And why should we believe you? We already see what happened last time we listened to a claimed cop.

So what are you suggesting here IKD? My thoughts on it further down

#83/19: Votes Toon Fighter for lurking. Another weak vote.

Pressure votes encourage activity. I did not foresee a lynch at that time, so there was no cause for concern. Had a wagon built up based on his inactivity, I would have unvoted, simply because I am against Lynch All Lurkers.

then why not ask the mod to replace him?

#84/20:

So are you admitting to talking to your scum buddy this time around?

That is

extremely

scummy. Holy crap. The line of logic is absolutely flawed, and as it stands that is just putting words in RPG's mouth. Furthermore, any experienced played should know this.

I was clarifying his wording in his post.

This isn't the only instance of putting words in people's mouths, I do believe I re-call this happening at least once more, with over-exaggerating my policy on lurkers, maybe more but I have under 5 minutes to complete this entire responce so I'll find this out for sure later

This is later followed by:

This is an interesting piece of evidence here. I understand that this could have been an innocent unintentional use of words but it also could be a Freudian slip. If so it suggests that

(1)RPG is scum;
(2)RPG's scumpartner is one of the people he has not interacted with yet.

This is one confirmed scum riding on the back of a weak argument by his partner and giving it apparent merit.

So because the confirmed scum supported what I said, I must be scum? Sounds more like a newbie scum player trying to look pro-town by supporting the more experienced players. Doesn't make me scum.

true, this alone doesn't make you scum

#98/21: Unvote the wrong person. More evidence of throwing the vote around in an anti-town way.

As I have said, I have performed just as erratically in other games in which I am now seen as town. One of my flaws is that I don't pay attention sometimes, or I forget when I change a vote sometimes. I've done it as town, and I think I did it as scum the one time I was scum (if my memory serves me right).

links?

#103/22:

To be entirely truthful, it is mostly instinctual gut feelings based on what I remember from your meta. like I said above, I'll take some time to actually compare the two games. Sorry if it's a null tell. But it did get some discussion, did it not?

So you admit to making a hasty vote, but then it almost seems like you try to justify it by saying it got discussion?

Yep.

Speaks for itself.

Yes, it was a rather hasty vote, and it got discussion. So?

I think the point he's trying to make here is that you sowed confusion

#104/23: Re-votes TF. More voting confusion.

See above. I've done worse in other games just because I didn't pay enough attention. I really am trying to work on that.

more links please?

#125/28: More misunderstandings. This one in particular is not scummy by itself, but together with the general play, it is more scummy than not.

As I said in that post, it was a misunderstanding, since I misread what he said. It wasn't a difficult mistake to make.

#142/31, 156/32: Begins to distance himself from Neo-con John after strong arguments put forth primarily by PaltryExcuse and tracker. Note how #142/31 just piggy-backs on existing arguments, and #156/32 seems to be an expansion on the "NCJ is not there anymore"-argument. The post is filled primarily with speculative observation.

Kind of hard to add all new material sometimes. However, rather than go inactive, I decided it best to at least show my support. And what's wrong with the expansion?
Also, since when are speculating and observing scummy?

another possible way to show support is by writing it out, best way to add material is to wait for the lynch canidate to post something, and if he doesn't till his replacement posts something

There is this:

But we still have a good amount of time until deadline and discussion is still going.

Pressuring people to avoid the hammer until he can mount a defense, or buying time to let NCJ do so? Or it could be that he's working on trying to push someone else, probably tracker, back into the limelight and save his scumbuddy.

Looking back, I can see how that might appear that I was just trying to buy time. However, I had my vote on NCJ, not tracker. If I had found tracker more scummy than NCJ, I would have had my vote on him.

more scummy or until I became a threat?

It ends with:

As a side note, I, by policy, do not like to try and look for scum partners and links between people until we know who one of the scum is. In order to not detract from the current discussion, I will refrain from posting why, unless someone doesn't understand how it can be a bad thing.

Reads a bit like an IC using his experience to try further distancing himself from the target, again.

So you disagree with my thought process? If so, by all means let me know why I'm wrong and then I will present why I think I'm right. Like I said sometime near the start of the game, I'm not God. I have my own opinions of how the game is run. If someone disagrees, they are more than welcome to let me know and we can discuss it. That's the point of a newbie game; to let people figure out what they do and do not agree is good gameplay.
So if you disagree, let me know. If you agree, then why is this post a problem?

watch for my responce to this below, I will have it in blue

#175/35:

This post sounds like a lot of "I don't really care much about who gets lynched, I just want the day to end, but I don't want to draw attention to myself by ending after someone points out that it might not be beneficial to do so." Which is definitely NOT pro-town.

I don't think it reads like that at all. It reads like someone who, with a combination of advice from an IC, a mod mistake and general inexperience got confused. Not that hammering tracker is a good idea in hindsight, but he did play quite a scummy game if you remove imkingdavid and Neo-con John from the game.

What's the mod mistake you are referring to? o.O And that's how the post read for me, so that's what I posted. If you see it as something different, that's your opinion, and you're welcome to point it out.

here i think, don't actually remember exactly what I had in mind, will return to this when I have more time

Post ends with a FoS on Gayle. I guess now that the town is committed to voting Neo-con John, it's too late to throw the vote around like earlier.

Vote = I want him lynched. FoS = there are two scum in the game, so lets keep an eye on more than just the one. No need to change my vote because I'm happy with it.

but didn't you say that we shouldn't look for scum partners until after the fact?

#192/36:
#200/38:

Having 3 different votes and 2 different FoS's by page 8 is hardly a reason for suspicion. It shows that I'm looking around and weighing possible options. If I had, say, 5 or 6 different baseless votes by now and was throwing suspicion at every person without much consistency, then there might be a cause of concern.

Actually, this is a cause for concern. There have been 5 people you've thrown suspicion on, almost all of which was done via very little analysis or others' analyis. Cause Of Concern.

Actually, I think I've shown suspicion for almost everyone in the game. That's because as a town, we don't know who is the remaining scum, and by focusing on one person, we let them slip by if that's not the right person. No "Cause Of Concern."

town tunnel, scum spread, ever heard of it? It goes against some people's opinion but it's something I've kind of noticed on this site.

OK, we're at the point where the shit hits the fan.

#268: SirPent just fakeclaimed cop and voted Gayle. In my reading I assumed this was a joke vote for quite a few posts. I can't believe anybody took this seriously. Every single one of his posts after that until the most recent has been of a troll (Gayle caught that one: #283). One that ruined the game, I'm afraid.

#284: tracker voted Gayle, which, as a semi-experienced player, blows my mind. I can't believe that anyone would fall from that. If there were three guaranteed scum, I didn't have a guaranteed town confirmation and tomorrow wasn't LyLo, I'd be pushing hard for back-to-back imkingdavid and tracker lynches.

So if we just decided that both tracker and I are scummy for it but we only have 1 remaining scum, why are you still using it as "evidence"? It shows that even town players can do something that may seem scummy.

However, I'm confirmed town now, and you're still up in the air, scum do scummy things too

In any case, when someone makes a role claim, I try to take it seriously. Yes, it's regrettable that SP has basically screwed up the game for us with his fake cop claim, but at the time I provided my reasoning behind the vote, and I voted. I did what I thought was best. And as I pointed out, now realize that a much better choice would have been to lynch SP instead of Gayle. But hindsight is 20/20, and we can't go back, now can we?

So your're saying we should lynch Qax42?

#285/45: One hour after tracker, imkingdavid swoops in to vote Gayle. Looks like less of a muppet now that he's followed tracker. No IC should ever put a vote on such a terrible claim.

I had had no time to really post anything until then. If you will notice my other posts,

I pointed out that I found the claim scummy,

and it just happened that I had voted after tracker. It wasn't as a piggy back. If tracker hadn't voted before me, I would have still voted. Also, as you'll notice, I even then did not wish to push the lynch just yet so that we could get some discussion. But then Gayle decided to screw us over and self-hammer (which you should never do, btw).

if the claim was scummy then why did you vote?

I probably wouldn't have joined the game if I had read this far before I got my confirmation PM. Or, well, if I knew that I was going to be a cop with a confirmed hit on the last mafia member already. Too easy.

Mighty convenient to join in and have "the answer" to the game, eh? And you try build on the current confusion caused by the previous cop claim with your own claim. I see no reason to believe you and more than I now see to have believed SP. I hope we don't as a town make the same mistake again.

so again you're saying that we should lynch qax42 instead of you

#300/47: imkingdavid tries to explain his actions. Very scummy explanation with a lot of apologies because of poor judgement, a recurring theme. Especially with:

Sorry. Oh wait, I just apologized. = scum. Ok, read this post, and this post (not the whole thing, since it's rather long). They are both me as town. So apologies aren't inherently scummy. I try to apologize when I screw up, which is more than I can say about some people.

will do this when I have more time, promise

s far as SP is concerned, here's my take on it. It would be complete idiocy to make such a claim that early on in the game as scum. On the same token, it would but just as stupid to make the claim as cop, especially since we just found out that he was lying if he was either scum or cop. So either he just doesn't care about the game and is screwing us over to give the scum an easy win, or he's being overly scummy on purpose to make us think he's not scum

Why is this being presented now, after you were responsible for getting Gayle lynched?

You can't put all the blame on me, although I do admit I did misjudge when I voted. However, tracker and gayle and SP were also responsible for his lynch. I'm not trying to shift all the blame, but I'm just finding it odd that you find it necessary to focus on one person. Maybe my blunder is more significant because I'm IC, but you can't disregard the others.

i'm ok with tunneling you until you either A, refute everything, or B, are lynched

Alright, there's my defense. I tried to respond to everything that begged a response, and I think my points are sound, so I would appreciate it if you would respond to all of it (no picking and choosing, please).

k, tried to respond to as much of it as possible in 5minutes, and cut the rest, (actually I went over and am eating out here too). Will make a decision tommorow or later tonight when I have more time,

Mod: Any info on why Sirpent was banned?

[imkingdavid]

First of all, It would have been better for qax to respond first, not tracker. It was qax that I was responding to anyway, not tracker. If tracker has some questions, he can ask. I still expect a response from qax.

@tracker: you're still planning on making a decision tonight!? Deadlines not for a couple of weeks. And you guys are accusing me of being hasty with my votes. I'm already at L-1 and we're about to go into lylo, and you and qax are saying I'm being hasty.

Anyway, I will respond to tracker's post, I will cut out everything but tracker's response for the sake of saving space.

Hammering this early in the day is suspicious, even with Sirpent's previous actions, we were giving him a chance to defend himself, like we're giving you chance to defend yourself.

Correct. I understand that. Where did I say otherwise? My point with this was to say that yes, I could have hammered, but I didn't. And on top of that, other people have had plenty of time as well. So I was saying that him pointing me out by saying that "imkingdavid will hammer and SirPent will flip town" is sort of unfair; more than just I could have hammered.

actually we can confirm the presence of a roleblocker, if qax is cop, and a doctor appears that confirms the presence of a roleblocker, come on IKD don't you know the set-up?

Ok, but we would have to lynch both a cop and a doctor in order to do so, as lynching is really the only way to confirm a role (except in the case of a cop having a proven guilty). So yes, you're right, we could confirm if we had a roleblocker, but only if we did the most anti-town thing there is: call out both the doctor and cop if there are even both or either of them, and then then lynch both of them and make sure they both come up as power roles. If they both do, then we do have a roleblocker. However, this is not plausible for this game as trying this would mean instant defeat. And it's not really smart to do this in any game, really.

Other than that, the only way is to lynch the roleblocker, if there is one. That's all I was saying.

And no, I don't know the set up. What are

you

suggesting?

So what are you suggesting here IKD? My thoughts on it further down

Suggesting? More like

implying

, really, that we should not trust everything he says. I feel like he's trying to capitalize on the fact that we already had one false cop claim, so now it is slightly more believable for another in theory.

then why not ask the mod to replace him?

...I believe I did. Or I was going to if he didn't post. Anyway, he wasn't in danger of a lynch, so where's the issue here? Are pressure votes now scummy?

This isn't the only instance of putting words in people's mouths, I do believe I re-call this happening at least once more, with over-exaggerating my policy on lurkers, maybe more but I have under 5 minutes to complete this entire responce so I'll find this out for sure later

Links?

true, this alone doesn't make you scum

ok.

links?

I did provide them below in my previous response, although they were in answer to a different question. However, you can look through that game and see what I'm talking about. We have plenty of time, so it's not like we're hard pressed for a lynch, so look through that thread some.

I think the point he's trying to make here is that you sowed confusion

I don't recall anyone being confused, except perhaps me those times I unvoted and revoted the same person and whatnot. If you were confused by whatever I did, it wasn't my intention. And why are we bringing this up now instead of when it happened. If there was any confusion, it should have been brought up then so I could clarify what I meant by anything. It makes so sense to bring up past confusion when you failed to ask for clarification.

more links please?

See what I said above about the links in the previous response.

another possible way to show support is by writing it out, best way to add material is to wait for the lynch canidate to post something, and if he doesn't till his replacement posts something

So if I wrote out everything everyone else had already said instead of implying it it would be fine? No, you would still accuse me of parroting.

more scummy or until I became a threat?

It's things like this that make me feel like you are set on my lynch no matter what I say. So why not just go ahead an hammer? Seriously...

watch for my responce to this below, I will have it in blue

What the part about you not remembering what you had in mind? Well, I'll wait for it when you remember. I don't see what all there is to make of this though...

here i think, don't actually remember exactly what I had in mind, will return to this when I have more time

Ok...

but didn't you say that we shouldn't look for scum partners until after the fact?

Until after we found one, yes, which we have. What point are you trying to make here? How is an FoS scummy now?

town tunnel, scum spread, ever heard of it? It goes against some people's opinion but it's something I've kind of noticed on this site.

hmmm nope never heard of it. too bad it's not accurate. Tunneling is anti-town, so town should not do it.

However, I'm confirmed town now, and you're still up in the air, scum do scummy things too

Did I miss something? I don't recall anyone confirming you as town.

So your're saying we should lynch Qax42?

I am saying that we should think through who we lynch today instead of doing like I helped us do yesterday and rush to a lynch. However, my points I made against HP still stand.

if the claim was scummy then why did you vote?

Because the thing to do when you find something scummy is vote.

so again you're saying that we should lynch qax42 instead of you

Well, of course I'd be against a lynch of myself. No one here wants to be lynched. But all I'm doing is pointing out my thoughts. If you want to use them as points against me, then go for it.

will do this when I have more time, promise

Waiting. We have plenty of time, so take some time and read through the rest of my part in the thread too. We have a few weeks or so weeks until deadline.

i'm ok with tunneling you until you either A, refute everything, or B, are lynched

Go for it. But if we end up losing because you decided to tunnel, then keep that in mind next time.

k, tried to respond to as much of it as possible in 5minutes, and cut the rest, (actually I went over and am eating out here too). Will make a decision tommorow or later tonight when I have more time,

Like I said, why are you in such a hurry? Deadline is on the 27th. Take your time and think this through.

[qax42]

@

imkingdavid

:

Finally showed up! Not to worry, I'll respond to each point, but it can't happen tonight, since I want to discuss what tracker has said and your subsequent responses to that as well, and it's a lot more than I expected.

After a quick skim: your response is a direct attack on me—so why haven't you voted me, then? Moreover, a lot of your attacks are WIFOM/OMGUS, but I'll get into the detail later.

@

tracker

:

To be fair, it's anti-town to answer for someone else. Doesn't matter in this game, but imkingdavid is right. You should wait for me to answer otherwise, if I was hypothetically scum, I could claim a lot of your answers as my own and get a free ticket.

@

Town

:

I should add, I'm totally cool with lynching right now. As I've said, the game is town-won for an ikd lynch. I'll try log on tomorrow to write up the post, but it can't happen right now, sorry.

[Elmo]

Mod: Any info on why Sirpent was banned?

SirPent was an alt of Mufasa aka whoot1234, who was previously banned for cheating. See here & here.

Nicodemus replaces SirPent. Thanks!

[Nicodemus]

Hey all, I read through this thread last night, so I'm good to go.

First of all, Sir Pent indeed was lying about being a cop, I am nothing more than a vanilla townie. When I got to that part in the thread I was absolutely aghast at what happened, and I do think that tracker and IKD should be held highly suspect for their jump on that completely ridiculous Gayle wagon. However, the fact that NCJ was so against tracker on day one leads me to believe that he is town.

Now, when I was reading through the thread I took pains to try and determine who I thought was most scummy, given the current information I had (NCJ was scum, RPG, PE, and Gayle were town) and the two that stood out to me the most were TF and IKD. Since IKD shows up on both those lists, and since qax has made an absolutely stellar case against him, I do not have any qualms voting for him. I know it sucks to join in a game so late that basically my first post seals the deal, so I'm going to hold off voting for a bit, but yeah, my vote is almost definitely going to IKD

FoS: imkingdavid

[Nicodemus]

Just realized that SP already had his vote on IKD, so my FoS was pretty pointless. Like I said, I don't want this game to be over ridiculously quickly, so I'm

unvoting

. My vote

will

be on IKD though, barring amazing new evidence.

[Nicodemus]

OK, sorry for the triple post, but I had one more thought. Where's the downside to lynching IKD?

It goes like this: There's only 1 scum left in the game, and four town. If we lynch IKD today, and he flips scum, well, it's over. If he flips town, however, we'll go into tomorrow at lylo. Now, if this happens (which, I admit is unlikely), we'll have caught qax in a complete lie (his positive result on IKD N2), and so can lynch him the following day. Tracker is all but town IMO, and TF has proved himself with his questioning of the Gayle lynch yesterday. If IKD was truly town, he would want to sacrifice himself to incriminate qax so we could lynch him tomorrow. Really, with only 1 scum left in the game it's pretty simple. Lynch IKD today, and if he flips town lynch qax tomorrow. Only scum would refute this.

Any other opinions?

[imkingdavid]

OK, sorry for the triple post, but I had one more thought. Where's the downside to lynching IKD?

It goes like this: There's only 1 scum left in the game, and four town. If we lynch IKD today, and he flips scum, well, it's over. If he flips town, however, we'll go into tomorrow at lylo. Now, if this happens (which, I admit is unlikely), we'll have caught qax in a complete lie (his positive result on IKD N2), and so can lynch him the following day. Tracker is all but town IMO, and TF has proved himself with his questioning of the Gayle lynch yesterday. If IKD was truly town, he would want to sacrifice himself to incriminate qax so we could lynch him tomorrow. Really, with only 1 scum left in the game it's pretty simple. Lynch IKD today, and if he flips town lynch qax tomorrow. Only scum would refute this.

Any other opinions?

You're welcome to do as you please without the our consent. If you feel it is in the town's best interest to lynch me, go for it. Or if you feel that allowing further discussion is more beneficial, don't hammer. Your choice, really.

[Toon Fighter]

He can't hammer now, there is only one vote on you.

[Nicodemus]

OK, sorry for the triple post, but I had one more thought. Where's the downside to lynching IKD?

It goes like this: There's only 1 scum left in the game, and four town. If we lynch IKD today, and he flips scum, well, it's over. If he flips town, however, we'll go into tomorrow at lylo. Now, if this happens (which, I admit is unlikely), we'll have caught qax in a complete lie (his positive result on IKD N2), and so can lynch him the following day. Tracker is all but town IMO, and TF has proved himself with his questioning of the Gayle lynch yesterday. If IKD was truly town, he would want to sacrifice himself to incriminate qax so we could lynch him tomorrow. Really, with only 1 scum left in the game it's pretty simple. Lynch IKD today, and if he flips town lynch qax tomorrow. Only scum would refute this.

Any other opinions?

You're welcome to do as you please without the our consent. If you feel it is in the town's best interest to lynch me, go for it. Or if you feel that allowing further discussion is more beneficial, don't hammer. Your choice, really.

Yes, it's my choice, but I'd still like your feedback on my decision. If you truly are town, then you wouldn't be giving me such a poisonous drink to swallow. "Well, it doesn't matter what I think since you seem to be a crazy killer who's liable to go off at any time, so just do what you think is best and we'll just have to deal with the consequences." Just answer, do you think your lynch would be a good move for the town?

[imkingdavid]

He can't hammer now, there is only one vote on you.

...is that all you have to say? How about you add to the current conversation. Might be beneficial.

If you truly are town, then you wouldn't be giving me such a poisonous drink to swallow.

WIFOM noted.

it doesn't matter what I think since you seem to be a crazy killer who's liable to go off at any time

Putting words in my mouth noted.

Just answer, do you think your lynch would be a good move for the town?

Trying to skirt any blame for potential town flip tomorrow by seeking my permission to vote me... noted.

but to answer your question, in my opinion, it would be anti-beneficial to lynch me.

[Nicodemus]

but to answer your question, in my opinion, it would be anti-beneficial to lynch me.

OK, so why exactly would it be anti-beneficial to lynch you? Besides you qax is the most suspicious person left, since he claimed cop and fingered you. I can't believe that he would do this if he was merely a townie, unless we have another SirPent-type clone joining this game, which would be ridiculous beyond measure. Therefore, we are left with two options: 1) he is a cop and has a scum-scan on you, or 2) he is the remaining mafia and is using the cop claim to force a lynch. If the second option is correct, although you may not like letting yourself be lynched, if it leads to revealing that qax has been lying then I believe it's a necessary sacrifice for you to make. I know that if we lynch you and you flip town I will be all over qax tomorrow, and, although I don't want to speak for them, I feel that TF and tracker would feel the same.

I understand that we need to discuss the situation, but can you not at least agree with me that if qax is lying and you are telling the truth, the best way to get us to believe you is to flip town? And yes, I realize that I was putting words in your mouth with my previous post, but I felt that you were dodging my question from two posts ago, which is why I responded the way I did.

[imkingdavid]

As I have said, if you feel it is the best case scenario to lynch me in order to ensure a town win, then go for it.

OK, so why exactly would it be anti-beneficial to lynch you?

purely selfish reasons, tbh.

[tracker]

The reason I was being so hasty with that post is that when I make promises I try my hardest to keep them. So when I said I'll post more tommorow, I posted more tommorow, I only had five minutes to analyze and comment on that post, so I did the best I could in five minutes, actually I went overtime and ate supper by the computer, I almost got in trouble for it. I know I haven't been the most prompt player in the past and I know that some of you resent that, but I'm making it my goal on here to always keep the deadlines I set for myself.

As I don't have much time on here, and the amount of time I'll have for the rest of the week is up in the air, I'm not going to post anything oversized until this weekend, that said I'll try and comment on at least a couple major points every day, starting with two of the biggest in my opinion

IKD, I'm confirmed town, there is only one scum left, and that's either you or Qax, if Qax is a cop then he's got an innocent on me, if he's scum, then it doesn't matter who he points the finger of innocence at because his scum-buddies dead. The only remaining possibility left is that I'm town.

A minor point that bothered me, IKD, as an IC, I find it hard to believe that you're ignorant of the set-up. The mod said in his opening post it was F11, and it's the same in all newbie set-ups.

Also, we don't have to lynch both a cop, and a doctor, or lynch a role-blocker before knowing the exact set-up. A doctor's night protection can show his presence and there may even be more, I'll have to think on this matter more.

that's just about all I have time for until tommorow, except for one other thing,

hmmm... I rewording/retracting what I said about self-lynching, if your town, and it's not lylo, and another player claims to have a guilt read on you (making sure first that there's no possibility of millers). Then it would be acceptable and probably even a good sacrifice to self-lynch as you win with the town who will then procede to lynch the lying scum who claimed a guilty on you.

So IKD, if your not ready to be a maytr to die for the cause, then what do you suppose we do?

[imkingdavid]

Note much time atm, but I figured I'd respond to this since it seems there is a misunderstanding:

A minor point that bothered me, IKD, as an IC, I find it hard to believe that you're ignorant of the set-up. The mod said in his opening post it was F11, and it's the same in all newbie set-ups.

Also, we don't have to lynch both a cop, and a doctor, or lynch a role-blocker before knowing the exact set-up. A doctor's night protection can show his presence and there may even be more, I'll have to think on this matter more.

I know it's F11, but that setup has 4 possibilities. I'm saying we as a town do not know the specific setup. All we know for sure is that there was 1 mafia goon, as he has been lynched. The rest is up for grabs.
The only way we can have a roleblocker is if we either have both a cop and a doctor or if we have neither. So in order to tell if we have a roleblocker, the only way to know is to either lynch both the cop and the doctor if they exist, or to lynch the roleblocker if he exists. Do you follow?

As far as us knowing if we have a doctor by whether or not a lynch happens, it's quite easy for the mafia to just not make a night kill to create the impression of a doctor. Not that that would be optimal scum play in most cases, but if they are trying to pull some stunt, that's how it would work.

Although I just remembered that this mod in particular randomizes any unsent night actions, so the above wouldn't work in this case. But you get what I'm saying, correct?

Anyway, no more time tonight. Good night!

[tracker]

yes, i get it, and I suppose that the scum could also tell the mod nokill or something of the sort, but the set-up is pretty much irrelevant at this time, as there are only two canidates for lynch at this moment, (or at least there is only two in my eyes) and those are IKD and Qax. One of them has to be town, which brings up another thought, springing from the talk about talking one for the team,

@Qax, since you're the cop, then would you be willing to be lynched today knowing that tommorow after seeing you flip cop, we would then proceed to lynch IKD, as he would have to be guilty?

@IKD, you say that your not the scum and Qax must be scum because he's reporting a guilty on you, correct?

Sirpent and TF, what are your thoughts on this matter? please don't flak out now, when we're so close to the end.

[Nicodemus]

yes, i get it, and I suppose that the scum could also tell the mod nokill or something of the sort, but the set-up is pretty much irrelevant at this time, as there are only two canidates for lynch at this moment, (or at least there is only two in my eyes) and those are IKD and Qax. One of them has to be town, which brings up another thought, springing from the talk about talking one for the team,

@Qax, since you're the cop, then would you be willing to be lynched today knowing that tommorow after seeing you flip cop, we would then proceed to lynch IKD, as he would have to be guilty?

@IKD, you say that your not the scum and Qax must be scum because he's reporting a guilty on you, correct?

Sirpent and TF, what are your thoughts on this matter? please don't flak out now, when we're so close to the end.

For the record, my name is Nicodemus, not Sir Pent. Please do not associate me with that name

Now, I guess I'd be good with the game shaking out either way, but really I feel like lynching qax today and waiting to lynch IKD tomorrow is really only dragging out the inevitable. I do understand that ensuring qax's identity as the cop proves beyond a shadow of a doubt IKD's guilt, but is it really any different than lynching IKD and proving qax's guilt? I don't really think so. Unless you or TF has played an unbelievable crafty game, and, in addition, qax is one of the most mean-spirited players of all time, I think we can safely say that either IKD or qax is the scum. Since almost all evidence is pointing towards IKD, I say we go ahead and lynch him today, and if he flips town we simply string qax up tomorrow.

Of course, it really doesn't make much difference to me as the game seems neatly tied up from every angle. Put me down as a ready to lynch IKD, but will lynch qax if everyone else wants to go that route.

TF, qax, your thoughts?

[Toon Fighter]

As Nicodemus said, unless something is very weird, either IKD or qax is scum. So, why are we wasting time here not lynching one of them?

Vote: IKD

And, if he flips town, lynch qax tomorrow. This game is basically won.

[Elmo]

Day 3, Vote Count #3

imkingdavid (2) <- qax42, Toon Fighter

Not voting: imkingdavid, tracker, Nicodemus

The

deadline

is Sunday, 27th December 20:00 UTC, which is 10 days, 1 hour and 35 minutes from this post. If deadline hits, there will be No Lynch.
With 5 alive, it's 3 to lynch.