Mini 880 - Mini Quick and Dirty - Game Over

[Amished]

Mostly I'm lazy.

However, I feel that "meta" is used to back more weak cases than strong ones. It requires everyone to read every game that's referenced fully; as well as every other game that the person having a case against has played in as well. Meta of a role is a subjective thing at best; and can be cherry picked to oblivion at worst to make it look like a case is better than it is. If somebody wishes to read my games for enjoyment, you're both not reading the right games, and wasting your time, but go for it.

Also, anybody that's even close to competent (which I believe all of you are, and I like to think I am as well) is aware of their own meta and can play to one. If he (or anybody) builds a case and then wants meta as a "backup"; sure, I'll think about giving it to them then. However, if they're just gonna meta for the fuck of meta (putting your time out of thread instead of in thread) then I believe it's anti-town and should be discouraged.

[Papa Zito]

Ohnoes, this started.

Be back soon, with Chinese food, to see what brilliance has spawned ITT.

Also, for myriad reasons, especially for the lulz, and not caring whether RVS has ended yet or not:

vote: Amished

[ODDin]

Holy crap you guys are fast.

1) Zorblag:
1.a) Do you mind not speaking in Troll-speak? It makes my head hurt and make your posts harder to read, which is bad.
1.b) Personally, I think checking the mod's patience is silly and bitchy. I figure he asked us to put votes in the bottom of the page for the sake of conveniece, to make them easier to find. No need to be so harsh about it.

2) I find Scien's approach useful. The way he accused AGar is a good way to get out of the RVS, and it indeed brought us out of the RVS (personally I think we're out of it, although are arguments are still pretty weak). Brnging the game out of the RVS is a good thing IMO.

2) Seeing the above, I don't really like how eKim attacked Scien over it - feels a bit like trying to keep the game in the RVS, maybe.

I don't think any arguments here are really strong, mine included, but I agree with Raskol that town should generally vote for those they find scummy. It's not always the absolutely best thing to do (pressure votes and other things might have a townie not vote for his number 1 suspect), but at this point, I think it's a useful tool to get out of the RVS. Non-random votes - even ones based on very weak arguments - shake people up and set them on the right path, from my experience.

So in light of the above:

vote: eKim

[ODDin]

Also, my wiki is up to date with all of my completed games.

[Papa Zito]

1) AGar: Why do you only want PZ to come in? So you can 2fac him like you always do?

wut

Yo yo yo!

Shoot, 3 people in this game I've played with *shifty eyes*

Vote: Papa Zito

Oho!

unvote: Amished
vote: AGar

Wait, no, there's scum here.

unvote: AGar
vote: SerialClergyman

[BigBear]

In regards to vote's, as long as the voting process is clear, i will count it. If a vote is not obvious to me, and i miss it, please point it out along with the post number where you unvoted/voted. Just leave some space between paragraphs and votes. I tend to miss the unvotes and all that are at the end of sentences.

Official Vote Count

Papa Zito (1) - AGar
SerialCleargyman (3) - Amished, ekiM, Papa Zito
ekiM (2) - Raskol, oDDin
AGar (1) - Scien
Sando (1) - SerialCleargyman
oDDin (2) - VP Balter, Zorblog

Not Voting:

Ojanen, Sando

[SerialClergyman]

I think my wagon is trying to tell me something.

Amished = famished
ekim = eating
Papa Zito = sounds like a pizza place.

famished, eating at Papa Zito's?

[Amished]

Dinosaur meat shouldn't be that tasty then...

@PZ: 2fac is a Starcraft thing. AGar's avatar is a really good Starcraft player known for aggressiveness (nickname "Berserker") who plays the Terran race and used a lot of 2 factory (2fac) builds to be aggressive.

Also @PZ: I have a lot of stuff to say to you in a bit. :glare:

[AGar]

1) AGar: Why do you only want PZ to come in? So you can 2fac him like you always do?

Well, since you forced my hand, I wasn't going to two-fac, I was planning a Deep Six. /starcraftdiscussion

I really feel like ekiM is reaching on Scien here, but I'm not sure. I'm way out of my league in this game

@Raksol - my wiki is up-to-date with every game I've played, and all the games I'm currently in. I implore you to try and understand my meta, because I sure as hell don't.

[AGar]

Oh also, since we've left RVS and I have no reason to really suspect Papa Zito right now:

Unvote

[Raskol]

Amished---it's okay, you have enough material on your Wiki for me to work with. I was asking primarily for games from those who don't have pages.

WRT meta---I don't use meta for cases, generally speaking, nor do I either use or accept meta defenses. I think it's more useful than you give it credit for, though. In order to fake a meta tell, someone has to be conscious of it---and most people would be surprised how little of their behavior they're consciously aware of. There are other reasons why meta is useful, too, but I won't go into those. As for time spent in thread vs. out, the things I look for don't generally take long to find, and I wouldn't read other games at the expense of this one in any case---anything I do will be after my inthread time here, not instead of it.

[Raskol]

3) Raskol's 38 seems like a weak attempt to cast suspicion on something that's not inherently scummy; especially at this point of the game. Counterpoint to your {Raskol's} argument: If I find every "lurker" suspicious for not posting yet, should I then vote all of them? It's not going to affect anything.

I expect votes to be placed when there's a need for a vote. If people are active and will answer questions you post to them, don't really need a vote. If they do something so scummy you don't think that they could be town, sure, go ahead and vote. If they're avoiding questions deliberately or unintentionally, go ahead and vote. But if you think that somebody needs questioning, but you don't really have an overall scum-vibe from them; ekiM's reaction is just fine.

-Of course it's weak. As multiple people have said so far, there's little to go on in the early stages. If we wait until we have something serious to go on before we begin scumhunting, though, we never will. Not everyone can hang back and watch, or there never will be anything to watch.

-Yes, if you find it even slightly suspicious then you have better than random reason to vote all of them. You can't, though, so I would accept a vote on any one of them. I wouldn't accept as townie-rational a vote on someone you had no suspicion of when there was someone you did have suspicion of, though.

-You say it won't change anything. I disagree. It may not be game-shattering, but there are several reasons it helps.

1

: it commits and locks you into a pattern of voting that does not hurt town but can hinder scum, at the very least making it slightly more difficult for scum to maneuver the way they would like.

2

: Although it may not be a lot, every vote you place adds a little pressure and solidifies your seriousness in suspicion. People respond to votes, even weakly reasoned ones, differently than they respond to voteless questioning.

It's better than nothing.

[Ojanen]

O M G.
I just realised I have been seeing a cangaroo in the place of a dinosaur for half a year.

@Raskol: what do you think about AGar's recent unvote?
After which exact post did you start to find ekiM suspicious?
@Zorblag: do you feel having a methodological predetermined voting pattern is helpful to get us to content stage?

We have two weeks for D1, and less for subsequent days. Let's not faff around for ages.

Last time I saw someone get worked up over an obvious joke in RVS, they were scum.

You seem to want out of RVS, yet you finding Scien's more serious vote suspicious seems to hinder the very process - what gives?

[Ojanen]

Also, I'm starting the game on the worst possible note - I fell pretty ill yesterday. And I must travel extensively and work on top of that during the end of the week, regardless of whether my fever will come down.

@Mod:

I expect access problems until Sunday.
My apologies.
I'll try to drop by when I can.

[Papa Zito]

Oh also, since we've left RVS and I have no reason to really suspect Papa Zito right now:

Unvote

That's because I'm town, as usual.

SerialClergyman is totally scum though.

Also @PZ: I have a lot of stuff to say to you in a bit. :glare:

[Zorblag]

@ODDin, Troll prefers to use Trollspeak but if it really be troubling after another couple days then Troll can drop it. Troll did ask about it before the game started but perhaps you didn't see that question (Troll says much so it be easy to lose a question or two in the words at times.) Troll also had a reason other than just being a pest to push on the voting formats. If BigBear was planning to be strict about it then there were going to be times people expected votes to get counted when they didn't. Eliminating any ambiguity about that now before it comes up with a L-1 situation or a potential hammer was important. Evidence for this as an issue can be seen in the fact that the three players who posted before Troll all used the wrong format.

Mod: Thanks for clearing the voting issues up! From here on out Troll will try to observe your preferences as them do be entirely reasonable.

@Ojanen, the methodical voting pattern occasionally leads to the content stage via the examination of the motives for using a methodical voting pattern. In fact in Tofu Mafia it lead to a fair amount of suspicion for Troll (if Vi be watching the game Troll be sure that them hate that Troll be doing it again.) Mostly it be a way to flag those who aren't participating yet in the early game until Troll has a better reason to cast a vote though.

Some further thoughts then:

Scien is playing like Troll expects him to as town rather than scum based on previous experience.

ekiM isn't playing like Troll thought him might if him were scum (though that be less strong a statement than it might appear.) Additionally, the expanded rules for claiming under pressure he gave are ones that Troll agrees with for the most part. That should be largely common sense though.

Raskol's stance of votes seems to be desirous of imposing his early game vote theory which Troll no particularly agrees with on everyone else. Troll no loves that at all. Troll needs to watch him play more and decide whether it will just be a game style thing (from his posts in MD Troll thinks that could easily be the case.)

Papa Zito be using an opening Troll has seen him use in games Troll hasn't been in and doesn't seem that informative.

AGar doesn't get to play the newbie card this game. He has enough experience relative to the rest of us that it's not acceptable. Further, the end of RVS is a terrible reason to unvote despite how often it be given.

Amished's take on meta seems fine to Troll. Troll uses meta primarily to get a feel for levels of competence which be harder to fake if people be playing to win. Clearly some of these other thoughts be evidence that Troll takes away some feel for the type of play to expect for alignments for some players but it just be useful for an initial read. Mostly in this game Troll knows that Troll can expect across the board competence so the meta will be less of an issue.

Sando needs to post so that Troll will see more of his play and stop associating him with Santos just because of his name. Also, he's the first person alphabetically not to have posted yet.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

Unvote: ODDin

Vote: Sando

[Amished]

@Raskol: Also remember that Truant is my alt that I played one game with you for like 2 days. Percy should've been lynched D3... Christ.

Unvote
Vote: Sando

AGar, ODDin and Sando are the three people I've never read a game of so I'm looking more at them right now. Sando (not santos, his LOST play still gives me nightmares, but only if I was town *evil chuckle*) should've had plenty of time to post. GOGO bandwagon on a lurker.

I wouldn't have thought not posting a lot would be that much of an issue with the type of people that we have, either.

Hope you get better soon OJ.

[Raskol]

@Raskol: what do you think about AGar's recent unvote?
After which exact post did you start to find ekiM suspicious?

---I would prefer that he form an opinion about what's going on and vote accordingly, if he thinks enough has happened that votes need no longer be random.

---Post 36.

[BigBear]

Sando will be Prodded tomorrow morning if he does not post by then.

Also, Albert B. Rampage is willing to replace

Sand.... i mean anyone,

if need be.

[Papa Zito]

^^^ I think that would be too much awesome for one thread.

Moar SC votes. Let's get a wagon rolling.

[Amished]

Hrmph, Sando hasn't posted for over 2 weeks. So much for thinking he was nervous scum.

Unvote
Vote: SerialClergyman

Bandwagon ho!

[Amished]

EBWOP:

@Mod: Could you post slightly regular votecounts? Easier to see what people are doing with their votes.

[SerialClergyman]

Vote hopping a bit nervously there amished. I want the game to go the distance, no giving away your scumminess too early...

[Amished]

I think you're misreading my intentions. I have no experience with Sando, but I thought that he was going to be devoted to the game like I am. Being the last to post in 4 pages seemed like he was nervous to not drop any scumtells. However, when I looked at whether or not he was actually around, he wasn't.

Without a votecount, I can't see a BW for myself, so I picked up on the last one mentioned (PZ -> you).

However, calling me scum for voting too much (votehopping nervously) and then landing on you looks like OMGUS, but without a vote cause you don't want to vote for somebody you know is pro-town in the real phase of the game.

[Zorblag]

Troll be tired and off to Troll's cave now but even as tired as Troll be Troll can see that we have a vote count this page. How curious.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh