Newbie 871 - Game Over Town Win

[Ether]

Like I said:

I would

[stretch confirmations out as scum]

. Most def.

I don't really think Incognito would do this in practice, but I think it's more likely he'd

believe

he'd do this if he's only been town in non-replacement newbie games like this one.

It's nice to be in a game where I can actually get some reads.

This is meta: Patrick hasn't signed up for a lot of games lately, and hasn't gotten a good grip on them when he has. This comment feels genuine to me.

There was something else in 61, but now I'm sort of thinking I shouldn't use it. Dunno. I still think confirmation WIFOM sort of points in his favor.

[DarthRandal1138]

Where's Randal?

I'm here. I've gone from a 10-hour day of work, straight to a midnight showing of

New Moon

, a couple hours sleep, to another full day at work, where I am posting this from my phone. I'll give the thread a full reread tonight, with some analysis immediately thereafter, or in the morning, if I can't string together something coherent.

[Ether]

I can sympathize with that. But you should still give very quick impressions from your skim right now. Feel free to then change your mind.

[herd456]

Do I insinuate from "trying to help" that I am actually hindering. Why? bad reads, too many posts, crap posts, all of the above.

Nope.

Elaborate on your train of thought there?

I suppose that being on AIM correlates with being online for them, which would then mean that not on AIM=not able to communicate with any scum. It's more of a stretch than is the case for their not being scum together, but I thing it's at least something.

[Patrick]

Ether: ksen's response was just a repeat of what he said already. I don't know whether it means something or not, but the question he asked boberz seems superfluous since he had an answer to it already (the mod telling people there's 2 scum), and I think it's worth trying to find out why, especially since I'm not wild about the rest of his play so far.

I asked for your read on him because you hadn't really talked about him aside from a non-comment about his theory, and he's one of the few people who's given me any scumvibes. I suppose I could have asked him in question form for reads, but I think it's heavily implied anyway.

I'm not sure why you think I need to post more? We've barely been open, and I've spent the majority of it at work or asleep.


boberz, Ether and Incognito all seem town to me. boberz just seems like a slightly paranoid townie, going through thought processes that remind me of how I played as new town, and being proactive. Ether and Incognito both give me protown vibes (with more confidence in the former). @boberz's last post: it's kind of hard to explain, and I'm not locked into those reads, but I think if either of them is scum I'll get the correct read today. The meta hasn't let me down yet, over a decent number of games. The most recent example of Ether as scum is this game, and you've already found an Incognito scum game.

I'm not getting much either way from herd's last posts. Herd, why do you feel Annachie's eagerness for the 3 ICs opinions on each other is scummy as opposed to just eager? It seemed like a logical thing to ask after it's been ttalked about how all 3 of us know each other so well.

[starkmoon]

Official Vote Count

Players needed to lynch: 5

herd456

- 1 - Incognito - (L-4)

Incognito

- 1 - boberz - (L-4)

Patrick

- 1 - herd456 - (L-4)

Yarmond

- 1 - ksen - (L-4)

Players not voting: Annachie, DarthRandall1138, Ether, Patrick, Yarmond

[Ether]

Now that it is tomorrow, I feel that it is time to

vote: ksen

.

I consciously waited to do that.

-

Herd: Incognito's online without being on AIM all the time. Patrick sometimes is, though it's harder to keep track 'cause he's invisible. Both of them are guaranteed to have logged in at least once between when roles were sent out and the thread was unlocked, so yeah.

Patrick: Fair enough on both of those. I'm a bit impatient, I guess. I was (and still am) unsure why you asked me specifically for my thoughts there, but I don't care enough to press.

[Ether]

So would you people stop staring and comment on Ksen yet? (I'm looking at you, Herd.)

[boberz]

I have been clocking in all day to see the response to this, I think there has been enough time for something to happen now so I am not happy. As I say I had a very slight town read on ksen based on the no lynch argument, just because I didnt think scum would push an argument so hard when they were wrong.

The fact that ksen has not said much helpfull but tried to look like a regular poster I don't like but I do not think scum immediately, an experienced player I would think scum.

I do not want to put my vote on him I still think slight town. Have I missed any reasons for your vote or is this a bit of a feeler vote as well.

[Ether]

I typed up a paragraph elaborating on my stance on Ksen, but I want to see more reactions, too.

I wouldn't recommend not posting at all while you wait for other to check in, though. It's a bad habit to get into--and it's just not a fun way to play, you know? (I'd call it scummy, but everyone else also did it, including people I'm more suspicious of anyway. So yeah.)

Having said that, I know that Herd's been online at least three times since I initially placed that vote, including at least once after I called him out directly. Randal's been around, too. (As for Yarmond, I'm not sure if he even knows the thread's open.

Mod:

I know the thread hasn't been open for 72 hours yet, but can you poke him?)

[boberz]

The only reason I waited was because I thought you were trying to get a reaction out of ksen and herd (i hadnt considered yarmond if i am honest) I had been interested to ask you why since you had done it. (although a post or two yesterday made me expect some kind of vote i couldnt work out where though)

What is different from me not posting a response, to you not offering explanation (although i understand why you might not want to do this).

I am getting a more town read off you however.

Who writes these wiki's?

[Ether]

My post drew attention to the fact that I'm stalling--not posting at all, or posting but ignoring the Ksenvote feels shadier. And when everyone stares at each other and waits for someone else to make the first move, that just waits time. (You did post eventually; I'm not being accusatory here.) Like I said, it's a bad habit to get into.

Most of the profiles on Wikiscum are maintained by their corresponding players, even though anyone can edit them. The other articles are written by whoever wants to write them. (The History part of each page might give a hint.) Half the tells are either obsolete or were never true at all, but it does give you an idea of the weird beliefs some players hold.

Speaking of weird beliefs, this thread about commonly-abused "tells" is recommended reading.

[boberz]

I did that unexplained voting thing (as you described it), but that was because i got a read from it (or thought i did). Why might it be scummy? honest question here.

I also used the word WIFOM but it was against my own argument, that I then didnt make (reading it back i should havee just deleted that point).

I will take the advice.

I wont take that tell from your wiki that says if you are active and try to get discussion going then you are town. I will do some work for myself if people have any evidence on you.

I am struggling to get a grip on anything here.

Incognito In the words of Terry Tibbs: Talk to Me. What do you make of ksen/herd?

[Ether]

That thread is satiric. Unexplained voting isn't scummy, but some people think it is. It's one of those things some players (including some ICs) will spring on you without knowing what they're talking about. (My posts on pages 2 and 3 are serious, though. WIFOM isn't a very useful word to throw around.)

I'm not actually sure if my advice on posting would help or hurt you in games without me. I mean, it works for me, and it definitely matches my own preferences and helps keep discussion from stalling, but a lot of towns don't recognize lurkers as a problem.

Herd and Annachie signed in without taking said advice. ¬_¬

What I said in my profile is true, but I try not to play it up too much except as a last resort. I don't expect to be under a lot of pressure this game, so feel free to read me the hard way.

[boberz]

I got that it was satiric, but there must be some basis as to why some think it is scummy does that make sense. If there was no logic (be it false or not) it wouldnt fool anyone, or are you suggesting it would.

I will read you the hard way if pressure comes/I worry that pressure hasnt come when I thought it should. I feel a bit bored just chatting to you ether, but no one else seems to contribute as regularly when I am on.

I still dont really agree on lurking. I think white noise (ie not usefull posts, deliberately so) is much worse than lurking, in newbie games. I do not like the active lurking you rightly point out, I have seen herd twice since your post as well (thanks for saying how to do that).

Do you want to keepp trying to prop up discussion or do you hope that discussions away from ones you instigate will develop at some point. If so can we expect you to post slightly less when this happens.

[Ether]

The logic doesn't really make sense to me, either. It's just something people get into their heads. Looking through past games:

Scum would love to vote someone without giving a reason.

If you are town, why would you do it. You say for reactions. You will look a little scummy, but you will see how the town reacts. Just to make it absurd, would you also hammer a un-cc cop?

Why wouldn't you give reasons? Now we can't be sure that you have them.

I want to know reasons when players vote as it can give the voters time to come up with an excuse why they voted that player and it gives them an excuse to unvote when they need to. I don't trust this kind of play.

Yeah, I feel the same way. This is a pretty slow day. (I'd count being online and not posting--like what Herd's doing--as standard lurking, incidentally. Genuinely not being around is inactivity, and it gets you replaced. Eventually.)

I'm all for other people bringing up points of discussion--technically, Patrick was the one who drew my attention to Ksen. But this is my normal posting style. I sometimes slow down, but it's not intentional--it means I'm bored, and it weakens my grip on a game.

[herd456]

I've been kind of bust today--checking in but unable to post. I'll post some actual content in about an hour.

[Patrick]

I have been clocking in all day to see the response to this, I think there has been enough time for something to happen now so I am not happy. As I say I had a very slight town read on ksen based on the no lynch argument, just because I didnt think scum would push an argument so hard when they were wrong.

The fact that ksen has not said much helpfull but tried to look like a regular poster I don't like but I do not think scum immediately, an experienced player I would think scum.

The second paragraph is more what sticks out to me about his play so far. Being wrong about theory is not usually scummy, especially in newbie games, but I don't think it's a town sign for him to be pushing it; it's relatively easy for scum to talk or argue about general theory as a way to try and appear active. Also, he could be scum who still genuinely believes his side of the argument. Ksen, can you link to a few games you've played on other sites? Thanks.

I don't feel the game has been particularly slow, for what it's worth.

[Annachie]

I think I've said that I think voting without reason, or random voting, is bad. It makes it easier for scum to hide and for scum to manipulate.
I think it's also a way for silly townies to paint targets on their heads, at least if they make a habit of it.

Reasons is data, and we need data.

People have asked for my read on Darth based on our last game together? So far, he's playing the same way. I don't know what to read into that since he was a NK in the last game, but the absence and excuse is a worry. (and were last game too)

Yarmond, Herd, Darth. Who are your top three candidates, for anything, and why?

(Anything: town, scum, power role)

[herd456]

*busy, above

Anyway, I don't really understand Ether's vote on ksen--if anything, his insistence in the argument hints that he's actually trying to figure something out which may end up helping the town, even though it's wrong. He hasn't really said much else, which isn't a scum tell unless it lasts longer than it has.

Annachie, who are yours? I find it odd that you're asking but haven't made your own answers very clear. Nevertheless I'll try to answer. My strongest town reads at the moment are boberz and Ether: boberz for reasons mentioned above, and Ether because of her evident tells, and because she seems to be moving the town in the right direction. (Though I would like a better explanation for her vote on ksen) I would say my biggest scum read at the moment is on Annachie, but it's not a very convincing read. I just don't like how he's asking for who we suspect but hasn't said anything about it himself since his gut feeling about the three ICs.

[Ether]

He

[ksen]

hasn't really said much else, which isn't a scum tell unless it lasts longer than it has.

I just don't like how he's

[Annachie's]

asking for who we suspect but hasn't said anything about it himself since his gut feeling about the three ICs.

Could you elaborate on the difference here?

I disagree with Annachie. Someone who votes without an explanation should be prepared to spell it out later--so scum can't really hide behind them--but it doesn't make manipulation any easier. If someone isn't scummy, people won't vote it.

It only paints a target if people believe that it's a scumtell. Which it isn't.

What do you think of my vote?

power role)

How would this possibly be a good idea?

[DarthRandal1138]

ProTip: If you announce you'll post in the morning, it will inevitably slip into the evening...

Some quick thoughts, to be followed by heavier analysis in a post to follow:

As to any read I might have on Annachie, I really don't have one. We've only played in one game together (the first for both(?) of us), so I can't really establish any real meta on him.

On the congenial nature of Patrick, Ether and Incog's posts: I read quite a few games on this site before I started playing, and am semi-familiar with all three of our experienced posters. I'd not read too much into their banter, and I'm not remotely concerned about any "outside of the thread" type of collusion. That said, if one of them is scum, we need to be on our toes. If *two* of them are scum... we're doomed.

(As an aside, I was truly pleased to see the three of you as our experienced players this game. It's a pleasure to be in a game with y'all. ICs (and SEs) of your quality should ensure an enjoyable game. [/fanboi] ).

On the subject of my posting speed, my work schedule keeps me from posting as much as I would like, and often restricts my posting to odd hours for someone in my timezone (GMT-6). I let my last game get away from me somewhat, and nearly got replaced, but this game seems to be much faster-paced thus far, and I intend to do better.

That said, while I do occasionally check the site from my phone during quiet moments on the job, I try to restrict any serious posting to when I'm at home after work. If you see me online, but I'm not posting, don't assume I'm lurking

per se

. I'm keeping up with the game, but not able to post.

Heavier analysis to come, following a reread.

[Incognito]

I finally got a chance to sit down today. So, some updates on thoughts.

I don't mind Ether's vote on ksen; I'm not really reading him as scummy or townish either way (he's flat-out neutral for me), so I'd obviously like to hear more from him in order for me to be able to get a better read of him. I agree with Patrick and Ether on how posting about theory can be an easy way for a hypo-scum to give the impression of doing stuff without actually doing stuff, and ksen has largely focused on theory as has been pointed out.

Aside from that, I've been thinking a bit about ksen's comments about the number of scum. While I initially thought it might have been slightly scummy since it looked to me like he may have been lying about something, I'm beginning to think his comments probably aren't all that bad after all. I kinda sorta think that if ksen was scum he could have easily used that early opportunity to drop a fake town-tell by acting like he really

didn't

know the number of scum in this game. So, I think the initial stuff was more force of habit if anything and probably doesn't reflect much on his alignment.

Incognito In the words of Terry Tibbs: Talk to Me. What do you make of ksen/herd?

Why are you calling me out specifically? I'm currently voting herd, so I'd think that would give you some indication as to what I might be thinking about him, and I've been trying to engage in conversation with ksen also.

I think I've said that I think voting without reason, or random voting, is bad. It makes it easier for scum to hide and for scum to manipulate.

How so?
If anything, I'd think a scum would likely be more successful at manipulation if he or she actually

gave

reasoning for a vote. I don't think I've ever seen a situation where a scum voted without reason and then some townies just stockpiled on blindlessly because of some telepathic manipulation of the sort.

(Anything: town, scum,

power role

)

Seriously?

I would say my biggest scum read at the moment is on Annachie, but it's not a very convincing read.

You mentioned that you play Mafia elsewhere. How convincing does your read normally have to be in order for you to want to actually take action it particularly in the early game?


I'd like to hear more from Darth and anything at all from Yarmond. It'd also be awesome if people laid down more real votes. The last vote count even with Ether's addition is pretty damn sad.

[Incognito]

Cross-posted.

Heavier analysis to come, following a reread.

Cool.

It's also rather nice to have another fan.

[Ether]

I can sympathize with that. But you should still give very quick impressions from your skim right now. Feel free to then change your mind.

Don't put off posting to make your posts look more thorough. You'll just put them off longer and longer as you keep playing, and then nobody's happy.