Newbie 871 - Game Over Town Win

[starkmoon]

The (not so) quiet city is even quieter tonight, rumours of Mafia in the town seem to have been confirmed and it has been decided that you need to find them and string them up.

Alive

Yankee(herd456)
Zorblag (Annachie)

Dead

RayFrost (DarthRandal1138) (townie) - Lynched Day 1
Incognito (IC) (townie) - Killed Night 1
Tyrope (Yarmond) (townie) - Lynched Day 2
boberz (doctor) - Killed Night 3
ksen (goon) - lynched day 4
McGriddle (townie) - killed night 4
Patrick (SE) (goon) - lynched day 5
With 3 alive it is 2 to lynch.

Good luck, and play well.

Current Status: Day 5 deadline 1st March Midday GMT

[starkmoon]

Rules

Votes

1) Votes must be in bold, if you do not bold your vote it will not be counted. ie

Vote: Playername

2) Please

unvote

if necessary before casting a new vote, it makes counting them much easier.

3) Lynching will require a simple majority of votes. Once a player has reached the necessary majority, their pleas are useless and any attempts to unvote will be unheeded. Feel free to post in twilight, though. With 9 alive 5 votes are required to lynch. With 3 alive, 2 votes would be required.

4) You may

vote: no lynch

. Majority votes of this kind are necessary to end the day without a death.

5) Vote counts will be posted in

blue

at the bottom of the first post on each page.

Deadlines

1) All newbie games are required to have a fixed three week day deadline. All nights have a 72 hour deadline. Deadlines will be shown in the first post of the game with a link to a countdown timer so you can check exactly how long there is till deadline.

2) At the three week deadline lynching will require the same number as votes as usual, if this number is not reached the day will end 'no lynch'.

3) The deadline lasts until I actually lock the thread.

4) If you have a night choice to make, it is due by the posted deadline. I will not wait for you. If you do not submit a choice to me then nothing will happen... at all.. not even a little bit.

Posting

1) The game is not to be discussed outside the thread unless your role specifically states that you may do so – and then only at night. If your role allows you to talk during night you will be given a link to a quicktopic discussion where you may do so.

2) Once your death scene has been posted, you’re dead. Stop typing. A “Bah!” postis allowable, but no more please.

3) No small or invisible text. Don’t edit/delete previously submitted posts either.

4) Don’t quote any PMs from me. If you do, I will be most unhappy, you don't want to make Starky mad...

5) If you anticipate being unavailable for more than 3 days, please post a notice to that effect in the thread. Treat this game as a commitment. Be considerate – don’t leave us hanging.

6) Mods are human, allegedly, if I make a mistake please PM me I will rectify the mistake as soon as I can.

7) Please do not post in

blue

or

red

. These are my colours and I guard them jealously.

8) Please

bold

anything you want me to see.. Also, please try to avoid bolding anything else to ensure I DO see the ones I need to.

Prods

1)A player will get prodded if they have been inactive for three days.

2)Weekends count as one day. (ie If your last post is on a Thursday you will not be prodded till the Monday following)

3) If you do not pick up your prod/post in game within 72 hours of it being sent I will start to look for a replacement.

4) Please post in game if you are going to be unavailable for more than 48 hours.

5) Prods to those listed as V/LA will be sent out on the third day after their expected return.

6) Any player prodded three times will be replaced should a fourth prod be needed.

Misc

Remember, it’s a game and it’s supposed to be fun. Be nice to your fellow players and your mod.

I will edit/add information to the first post as needed. Always check the first post in the thread and the first post on each page for mod updates.

If you have a problem in game please PM me to discuss it.

The rules etc can and will be edited at any point if I deem it necessary.

Breaking the rules can be bad for your health, I reserve the right to modkill for serious/repeated naughtiness.

[starkmoon]

The F11 setup is the current game format used in Newbie games. To prevent the development of game-breaking strategies, these Newbie Games are Semi-Open, wherein the actual game setup is randomly chosen from one of four possible setups as detailed below:

• 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Roleblocker, 1 Sane Cop, 1 Sane Doctor, 5 Townies
  
• 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Roleblocker, 7 Townies
  
• 2 Mafia Goons, 1 Sane Cop, 6 Townies
  
• 2 Mafia Goons, 1 Sane Doctor, 6 Townies

If either of the first two setups are in play, and the situation occurs where the Goon is lynched first, the Roleblocker will still be able to submit both night kills and roleblocks (roleblocking is a function of the Roleblocker; night kills are a function of the scum team as a whole).

These are the Role PMs that have potentially been sent to the players:

Mafia-Aligned players:

Mafia Goon:

You are a member of the Mafia along with your partner,

name

. Since your plot to quietly overtake the town has failed, you will attempt take it by force by eliminating the others until you outnumber the populace.

• During the day, try to blend in with the normal Townies, and attempt to get someone lynched.
  
• During the NIGHT cycle ONLY, you may talk with your fellow Mafia (via Quicktopic) and choose another player in the town to kill that night.
  
• You may communicate privately with your fellow Mafia up until the game thread is opened. Once the game begins, all outside communication must cease until the night cycle.
  
• You win when the number of Mafia equals or exceeds the number of remaining Town players, whether you survive to the end or not.

Mafia Roleblocker:

You are a member of the Mafia along with your partner,

name

. Since your plot to quietly overtake the town has failed, you will attempt take it by force by eliminating the others until you outnumber the populace.

• During the day, try to blend in with the normal Townies, and attempt to get someone lynched.
  
• As a Roleblocker, you have the ability to distract any player throughout the night, effectively negating their night ability, if they have one.
  
• Send the moderator a PM with your choice of player that you want to block. If they have a Night action, it will have no effect. You will not be informed as to whether your roleblock worked or not.
  
• During the NIGHT cycle ONLY, you may talk with your fellow Mafia (via Quicktopic) and choose another player in the town to kill that night.
  
• You may communicate privately with your fellow Mafia up until the game thread is opened. Once the game begins, all outside communication must cease until the night cycle.
  
• You win when the number of Mafia equals or exceeds the number of remaining Town players, whether you survive to the end or not.

Town-Aligned players:

Townie:

You are a normal townsperson, trying to make a living and survive this insanity.

• You have no abilities at Night other than getting a good night's rest.
  
• Although you do not have any special abilities, your voice and vote are powerful weapons in their own right. Use them to your best advantage!
  
• At no time may you privately communicate with any other player.
  
• You win when all the Mafia players are gone, whether you survive to the end or not.

Cop:

You are the local law enforcement, and can tell the good guys from the bad.

• Each NIGHT, you may send the moderator a PM with your choice of player that you want to investigate.
  
• The Moderator will inform you as to that person’s guilt or innocence.
  
• At no time may you privately communicate with any other player.
  
• In a Newbie game, you will always get a correct result (no sanity issues).
  
• You win when all the Mafia players are gone, whether you survive to the end or not.

Doctor:

You are the local physician, and can protect people from harm.

• Each NIGHT, you may send the moderator a PM with your choice of player that you want to protect.
  
• If someone attempts to kill that player during the Night, they will be spared.
  
• You may not protect yourself.
  
• At no time may you privately communicate with any other player.
  
• In a Newbie game, your protection target will always live through the night (no quacks).
  
• You win when all the Mafia players are gone, whether you survive to the end or not.

[Annachie]

'Ello

So what do people think:
Reasoned Vote: Voting for someone for a reason
Random Vote: Voting for someone for no reason whatsoever
No vote: Voting for a no-lynch?

[boberz]

Hi

No lynch seems very silly, particularly now because we want to gather information from a chat on day 1.

I am not a big fan of random vote, because I do not gain information from it, but it tends to happen and allowing it to occur for a bit I do not mind.

Reasoned vote I like, but I don't have much of a reason yet.

---

I would like to ask how much mafia (or close alternative) experience everyone has, as it is a newbie game this is particularly relevant. I have played a lot of face to face mafia but never an online game, I am yet to see how I will adapt.

[DarthRandal1138]

Hello, everyone.

Hello again, Annachie. *tips hat*

@Annachie: No-lynch is a bad idea D1, since it gives us almost no information.
A reasoned vote would, of course, be ideal, but pretty much requires scum to slip up D1.
A random vote is almost inevitable D1, barring suspicious activity from someone, but should be avoided in following days, as more and more information accrues.

@boberz: This is my second game of Mafia ever, but I've been lurking and reading on this site and others for a good, long while, and I feel I have a pretty sound grasp of the underlying theory. Now I just need some good, practical experience.

[boberz]

A random vote is almost inevitable D1, barring suspicious activity from someone, but should be avoided in following days, as more and more information accrues.

I do not understand what you are getting at here? I understand there is usually a random voting stage, where some people choose to throw around apparently random votes, but I would not expect this to last the whole day.

Am I right in saying that you encourage random voting throughout the day, unless a person does something particularly suspicious? In which case I think you are wrong.

[ksen]

Town should never NOT lynch. It is our only way to kill scum and on Day 1 it gets the information ball rolling.

vote: Yarmond

[boberz]

Town should never NOT lynch. It is our only way to kill scum and on Day 1 it gets the information ball rolling.

"NEVER", are you sure, or do you just mean never on Day 1? It can be mathmatically advisable to get the information of another night, and lower the probability of a mislynch towards the end. I agree in Day 1 it is stupid, and most of the time it is stupid.

[ksen]

Town should never NOT lynch. It is our only way to kill scum and on Day 1 it gets the information ball rolling.

"NEVER", are you sure, or do you just mean never on Day 1? It can be mathmatically advisable to get the information of another night, and lower the probability of a mislynch towards the end. I agree in Day 1 it is stupid, and most of the time it is stupid.

No, I pretty mucb meant "never." If town forgoes a lynch they pretty much give scum a free NK. If town doesn't lynch they will never win the game.

[Incognito]

Hi.

First order of business to everyone: please get avatars. They help with being able to determine who said what.

Second order of business is this:

Incog's Pearls of Wisdom

1)

Games on this site tend to move somewhat slowly so be patient!

2)

If you haven't done so yet, you can use the Wiki Index as a good place to learn about Mafia theories and abbreviations that are often used in the game. I'd recommend at least taking a glance through it when you get a chance.

3)

As the IC, I'm here to help you learn the game of Mafia as well as play along. The SEs (Ether and Patrick) are basically ICs too, but they're being silly.

4)

Always remember that this is a game so have some fun.

On to game stuff:

As far as what I think, I think we should be wagoning Ether for lurking -

vote: Ether

FoS: Patrick

just because.

@boberz:

My Mafia gaming experience on this site is listed in my Wiki page. You can look that up by clicking the link underneath my posts. Prior to joining MS, I played on a different site for about a year. So all in all, I've been playing Mafia for quite some time now.

No, I pretty mucb meant "never." If town forgoes a lynch they pretty much give scum a free NK. If town doesn't lynch they will never win the game.

This isn't entirely true; I can certainly think of situations where not lynching is actually beneficial for the Town. Can you or anyone else think of those situations?

On Day 1 though, yes, we should definitely lynch someone only after a substantial amount of information has been drawn from all of the players.

I, too, would like clarification from DarthRandal on what boberz mentioned in post 6. Welcome to MS, all.

[Incognito]

EBWOP: That should say "routine" as opposed to routing...

[boberz]

My vote is not random and it is for incognito

vote: incognito

It is based on very very little at the moment, but I will explain.

Incognito

sets a trap to get a wagon on

ether

, although he makes this so obvious it is almost a joke, it certainly would not hook scum, and if it did then it would only be at L-1 with no scum to hammer which they would not want to do anyway, essentially I am saying this whole thing was a pointless sentence. He also FoS:

Patrick

"just because" which again seems pointless. I asked myself why and nearly dismissed it as random voting particularly since he has played with both

ether

and

patrick

before (and according to your wiki enjoyed playing with them).

The reason I did not put it completely down to random voting (which it could well) be was threefold.

1/ I could not see why you mention lurking at all. Lurking is not a scum tell, active lurking might be but we are much too early to discuss this. It takes conversation to somewhere i deem pointless, pointless to me means it is not adding any value, which means it is creating white noise and hindering town.

2/ You try to test ksen and whoever else wants to answers logic/knowledge/ability to read the wiki, I cannot really work out why. To me town would want to help a person who has not understood by explaining said situation, not try and evaluate their effectiveness, possibly exposing them to scum manipulation later. Not that I believe ksen is a bad player, but that is another issue.

3/ You lick my rear end slightly with your last comment, which I read as trying to get an eager newb (which I clearly am) onside, on two other occasions you agree with me but admittedly add value on those, but not much.

I am also keen to hear from ksen again on the no lynch issue.

[ksen]

Hi.

First order of business to everyone: please get avatars. They help with being able to determine who said what.

I can't seem to get an avatar to load. I'll have to work on that.

No, I pretty mucb meant "never." If town forgoes a lynch they pretty much give scum a free NK. If town doesn't lynch they will never win the game.

This isn't entirely true; I can certainly think of situations where not lynching is actually beneficial for the Town. Can you or anyone else think of those situations?

Except for not wanting to lynch a Jester (but that's more about not wanting to lynch a particular person) I'm not sure what condition could occur where Town would not want to exercise their lynch.

It's our way of removing scum from the game. What scenario could possibly be in place to make us NOT want to exercise it?

[boberz]

What about if there were 4 town and 2 scum, ksen. A No-lynch would mean another NK could definately happen without ending the game. This would then enable any PR to have another night to gain info, it would also improve towns probabilities of correctly lynching the next day, in that day some kind of claim would probably occur a good time to get reads (and if PR claim can be verified gives the only solid info the town will ever get).

[Patrick]

Hey all. My experience at mafia is about 3.5 years, though more on and off lately. I'm an IC disguised as an SE to get myself into this game.

Addressing the theory not covered several times already: no lynch can be helpful in a situation where we have a cop, a doctor and 2 claimed vanillas but no useful investigation results. In that situation, the odds can be improved by no-lynching and having the doctor protect the cop and the cop investigate someone for a more informed lynch the next day. There are probably others possible, most usually when there's an even number of players alive. On day 1, it's pretty much always a bad idea.

boberz, I'm not sure I understand your (2). Do you dislike Incognito asking ksen about when a no lynch might be worthwhile? It seems like you're looking for an answer from ksen too on that.

Vote: Ether

[Ether]

Hi, kids. Incognito, Patrick.

To start us off on the same foot: Incognito, Patrick and I all know each other, haven't played mafia in months and have pretty similar theory. Patrick's totally rusted over and irrelevant, obv, but a part of me is nervous that Incognito and I will trip each other a couple times. And that I'll wind up focusing more attention on them than on you. But I'll try not to do that.

As my first shameful instance of focusing on them, I'm gonna point out that they're probably not scum together. Pregame phase didn't take long enough. Unless he was invisible, which I doubt, Incognito didn't sign into AIM at all last night, let alone at hours where it would be reasonable for someone at GMT+1 like Patrick to be awake. So that's nice.

One

of them, however, is absolutely a filthy scumbag trying to bump me off.

[Ether]

I would like to ask how much mafia (or close alternative) experience everyone has, as it is a newbie game this is particularly relevant. I have played a lot of face to face mafia but never an online game, I am yet to see how I will adapt.

Buncha games since around May 2006, a small minority of them off-site. My Wikiscum profile only links to games I've played on Mafiascum since mid-2007, but my playstyle's changed a lot since I started--I like to distance myself from my early games.

Annachie's first post feels weird--like someone else came up with the dichotomy there. I'm interested in his answer to your question. (But I can't see it as a scumtell.)

Lurking is a scumtell. This might be important later.

[Ether]

I wasn't on AIM between...6 and 8:30ish pm last night, EST. So, um. Feel free to correct me, you two? I'm sure you're very ethical about this sort of thing.

[boberz]

Ether why is lurking a scum tell? Active lurking is a scum tell no doubt, but lurking as a generic term I don't agree. Particularly in a newbie game where newbs may just not contribute much not wanting to make mistakes and such.

---

I realise I am posting a lot and many of them do not seem to be scumhunting so I now aim to rectify that slightly.

Firstly Patrick my number two: When i questioned ksen i did it in a way that i tried my best to explain very briefly why i thought it might be a good idea to no lynch at some point, I felt incognito did not contribute advice as town should have done, like you did (after my post), just told him he was wrong. He also seemed to be trying to get a feel for how logical/adept at using the wiki ksen (and whoever else answered) is, not necessarily a scumtell but adds weight to whichever read one gets, which for me is more scum than town. By questioning ksen I thought that incognito might be trying to see whether ksen was not following the logic well and could be feeling out a possible manipulation later.

Also Patrick I notice you did not pick me up on claiming that lurking is not a scum tell (which I believe it is not) does this mean you agree with me?

Reading this on preview it sounds as if I am accusing you Patrick, this is not the case.

---

Ether why would the pre game need to take a long time if incognito and patrick were mafia? If they know each other and are both fairly adept they could both adapt to a newbie game without a watertight plan this early. Or have i musunderstood their usual tactics, or the fundamentals of night 0 play.

Surely the pregame would take longer if a more experienced player wanted to do a bit of coaching before any posts so that a change in an inexperienced players posts would not happen.

[ksen]

What about if there were 4 town and 2 scum, ksen.

How would town know it was in that situation? In the games I've played on other sites the Town doesn't normally know how many scum are in the game.

A No-lynch would mean another NK could definately happen without ending the game. This would then enable any PR to have another night to gain info, it would also improve towns probabilities of correctly lynching the next day, in that day some kind of claim would probably occur a good time to get reads (and if PR claim can be verified gives the only solid info the town will ever get).

I can sort of see where you're coming from, but IMO Town giving up it's only real weapon is not worth the risk.

[boberz]

There are two mafia aligned players, it is in the rules at the top of the thread. I am slightly worried you have not read these, and it makes me wonder how much you have read of anything. Scum would take notice of posts, but I am wandering into WIFOM.

Based purely on the probabilities there are definately situations where it is worth it, so unless your willing to trust the reads of people you have reads on over mathmatics then I do not really think there is an argument. Town do not lose a lynch, they just postpone the lynch until the probabilities are better and the information is greater, I repeat they do not lose a lynch.

Having said that I do not think this is a scum mistake you have made, but the fact there are two obvious mistakes makes me wonder, but as I said this is WIFOM I should not be thinking about it.

[Patrick]

I wasn't on AIM between...6 and 8:30ish pm last night, EST. So, um. Feel free to correct me, you two? I'm sure you're very ethical about this sort of thing.

I didn't speak to Incognito last night. Though this deduction seems odd if you're having to take our word on that.

Also Patrick I notice you did not pick me up on claiming that lurking is not a scum tell (which I believe it is not) does this mean you agree with me?

I think on the whole scum are more likely to lurk. Both town and scum can get bored and apathetic with the game, but scum sometimes also have strategic reasons to lurk, while town rarely does. It varies from person to person, but it's usually worth at least poking a person to see what's up. I disagree with the case against Incognito, though early vibe from this is town.

How would town know it was in that situation? In the games I've played on other sites the Town doesn't normally know how many scum are in the game.

How many scum do you think we have in this game?

[ksen]

There are two mafia aligned players, it is in the rules at the top of the thread. I am slightly worried you have not read these, and it makes me wonder how much you have read of anything. Scum would take notice of posts, but I am wandering into WIFOM.

I haven't been talking about this specific game in the Lynch/No-Lynch discussion. Yes, the GM has told us there are 2 scum in this game. Is that the normal procedure in this forum?

So you don't need to worry about my reading skills. We have obviously been talking past one another.

[ksen]

How would town know it was in that situation? In the games I've played on other sites the Town doesn't normally know how many scum are in the game.

How many scum do you think we have in this game?

Starkmoon in the OP told us there are 2 scum.