Newbie 937 ~ Mafia Lite [Game Over]

[skerterg]

To answer the questions:

Everyone: Do you prefer being Town or Scum, and What is your experience with Mafia?

I don't have a preference yet, as this is my first game of internet Mafia. I have played IRL, but not that much. However, I have followed several games around here for the past several weeks and have familiarized myself with the general workings (RVS, WIFOM, etc.). I love puzzles, which is one of the reasons I signed up!

skerterg - Did you enjoy getting your role PM?

Yes, as I was quite excited to start a game.

1. Do you prefer a faster paced game or a slower game with discussion?

2. Do you think online mafia is more a psychological game or a logic game?

3. On day 1, do you think that a random lynch is better than no lynch?

4. Do you think that WIFOM is a scumtell?

5. Do you think that OMGUS is a scumtell?

6. Would you classify your playstyle as aggresive, analytical, passive or other (if so, state what).

1. Can there not be a fast paced game with discussion? Three weeks seems like a long time (especially when you are used to browsing through twenty pages of discussion in a few hours), but I guess I have nothing against a slower game. Gives more time for the suspicions to brew...

2. Though there are no physical/visual giveaways, I still think there are many ways of revealing yourself to be scum. Because of this, I'd say it is more psychological. When you are dealing with real people in an imperfect world, it is hard for things to be straightforwardly (is that a word?) logical.

3. From what I've read in threads, random lynch is better. However, I have no experience myself, so I'm just following the general consensus here.

4+5. I agree with Red Star. A person using WIFOM as his sole argument is likely scum.

6. I would have to say analytical, though I will follow my intuition first as a starting point.

[KittyMo]

Vote Count II:

[2] horrordude0215 - (Exilon, popsofctown)

[2] Exilon - (skerterg, horrordude0215)
[2] skerterg - (razorback, ahoda)
[1] popsofctown - (kelikar)
[1] razorback - (Red Star)

[0] ahoda - ()
[0] keikar - ()
[0] Kranix - ()
[0] Red Star - ()

[1]

Not voting

- ( Kranix)

With

9

alive, it's

5

to lynch!

Deadline is at Wednesday, April 28, 2010 at 4:00:00 PM (Sacramento time)

It's the quiet ones you gotta watch...Well while you're watching the quiet one I bet a noisy one will f*cking kill you..." ~ George Carlin

Though I stole this quote of G. Carlin from VRK. :b

[kelikar]

Now here's some of my questions, for everyone:


1. Do you prefer a faster paced game or a slower game with discussion?

2. Do you think online mafia is more a psychological game or a logic game?

3. On day 1, do you think that a random lynch is better than no lynch?

4. Do you think that WIFOM is a scumtell?

5. Do you think that OMGUS is a scumtell?

6. Would you classify your playstyle as aggresive, analytical, passive or other (if so, state what).

1. It's hard to say because I've only ever played 1 game that lasted more than 30 minutes. But I guess that's why I was attracted to this site in the first place: To play a lengthy, analytical game of Mafia. So I guess I prefer long and discussion filled.

2. I feel it's more psychological because you never know what the person behind the username is really thinking, and you don't have any facial expression or nervous habits to give it away. Although, there is a lot of logic included too.

3. I would say random lynch, but I don't like that word. Random usually implies that there was no thought put behind it, and I feel you need a reason to lynch someone, be it ludicrous or not. So I guess only if there's thought behind it.

4. I still haven't quite grasped what WIFOM is, but judging by what I think it is, no.

5. OMGUS is usually not a scumtell, unless they blatantly do it and are completely serious about it. I've only ever seen people do it as a joke though.

6. Judging from my play at EM and my first game at the other forum, I would say I'm really passive. Sometimes I feel like I just get so lost in what people are saying that I feel I can only watch. But that's why I'm playing a newbie game, so I can improve upon that.

[Exilon]

In sincerity though, why was I given a softball? Why don't I get a theory question like everyone else?

Skerterg's wasn't a theory question either D:

Now here's some of my questions, for everyone:


1. Do you prefer a faster paced game or a slower game with discussion?

2. Do you think online mafia is more a psychological game or a logic game?

3. On day 1, do you think that a random lynch is better than no lynch?

4. Do you think that WIFOM is a scumtell?

5. Do you think that OMGUS is a scumtell?

6. Would you classify your playstyle as aggresive, analytical, passive or other (if so, state what).

Lots of questions
1. I have this thing with fast-paced games - they rub me in a very wrong way. I feel that when things are fast, they're rushed - and when they're rushed, they're generally wrong. So I prefer slower games with more discussion, instead of just going for the heck of it. The more, the merrier, as they say.

2. Online AND offline mafia is based on a lot of logic. There's the difference that you can't see the people you are playing with on online mafia, so that gives the logic a great bump when comparing with offline. In my opinion, online mafia is more of a logical game, but there's still a lot of psychology involved. Gauging people's reactions through what they post is in itself more psychology than logic, for example. And personality is a crucial factor one has to consider when analyzing posts.

3. I can't really say because I don't think I will ever random lynch or no-lynch on day 1 (aside obvious exceptions), but for the sake of it, hypothetically speaking, if we had to choose between totally random lynch or no-lynch on the F11 (this game) setup? I'd go for no-lynch, because, even if we have a 2/9 chance of catching scum, we also have 1/9 or 2/9 (depending on the setup) chance of catching a power role, if there is one. Furthermore, we also have a 7/9 chance of catching a pro-town role. The odds aren't favorable to the town. Even if the death of a townie can give us some information, it doesn't give us as much information as he would give us by contributing to the discussion were he alive the next day. Besides, we're sure that someone is going to get night killed (if it doesn't, it's better, nothing changes except for the fact that we know we avoided the 1/9 chance of hitting the doctor, or the mafia is setting up a fakeclaim which could be risky for them)(and don't forget that since we have a 50% chance of having a cop, we can get a free night of investigations), and that by itself will give us death-related information to go with. We don't get much information for a randomly lynched townie - after all, it was a RANDOM lynch. I know many people say to never "no-lynch" on the first day, but they had the choice of having a justified and discussed lynch.

4. WIFOM? Well, not really. Most of the arguments on a mafia game are a little WIFOM'ish, because there's many things you can't comprove (for example, nature and intention of nightkills). Unless we're talking about blatant and useless WIFOM which doesn't have any other purpose and effect other than confuse the townsfolk or defend /attack desperatly... but I haven't seen someone do that, really.

5. Assuming that OMGUS is the sole act of voting for a person who voted you, then I don't think it can be considered a scum-tell. If a person's OMGUS is consistent, justified and / or reasoned, then I don't think one could consider it a scumtell. If there isn't any reasoning, it becomes a little more suspicious, but this can be applied to any vote after RVS, I believe; so the issue isn't really OMGUS as much as the reasons for the vote are.

6. On my last game, I was classified as "not being convicing / forceful enough to be the necessary town leader". I agree with that, even if I'll try to change it a little bit (always learning, right? ) I'm kind of a passive player, but I'm very analytical.

Hum, did I write too much? I do tend to get engrossed in what I write :s

[razorback]

Horrordude, since you like RQS, anything you'd like to ask everyone?

Sure!

Everyone: Do you prefer being Town or Scum, and What is your experience with Mafia?

ahoda - Policy Lynches: Good or Bad?
skerterg - Did you enjoy getting your role PM?
Kranix - Lynch All Lurkers: Yes or No?
Exilon - Lynch All Liars: Yes or No?
iPot - Do you prefer to make your decisions off of logic or gut?
Red Star - Do you find lurking to be a scum tell?
razorback - What do you think is the best way to scumhunt?
popsofctown - Who is your scumbuddy?

My answers to the top 2 questions: I love being scum. It presents a fun challenge and I think it's a lot more enjoyable. I've completed 2 games so far on this site and several on a different one. Anyone who wants to look at my completed games, they can be found on my wiki page.

And if anyone has any questions for me, let me know and I'll answer them!

you know i'm nopt going for that whole role fishing plan like they did i'm smart enough to see past that.


as for your scumhunting i have many diffrent way just not going to let myself be sucker in this game.

[Red Star]

Why don't you want to answer the questions, eh? It makes you look incredibly suspicious, especially considering the complete lack of sense in your post. Denying information to the town only hurts town.
Please answer the questions, razor.
(also, hate to be a grammar/spelling nazi, but please...)

[Red Star]

Why don't you want to answer the questions, eh? It makes you look incredibly suspicious, especially considering the complete lack of sense in your post. Denying information to the town only hurts town.
Please answer the questions, razor.
(also, hate to be a grammar/spelling nazi, but please...)

[Red Star]

sorry about the double/triple post, stupid laggy internet connection...

[Exilon]

Red Star, he did answer horrordude's question (partially?). He didn't quote any part of your posts, though :s

you know i'm nopt going for that whole role fishing plan like they did i'm smart enough to see past that.

Why is it rolefishing? :s All he did was pose some questions pertaining game theory( aside from the other cases)... The most he's probably going to get is information about people's personality...

[razorback]

well i think any one that ask's about roles happen's to fall under role fishing. and that is just not how i play the game no matter how bad it may make me look what horrordude0215 wrote: back there was scummy enough to put themself on my radar. for give me if i seem diffrent in my play style then all of you but it's just the way i do thing's.

[kelikar]

well i think any one that ask's about roles happen's to fall under role fishing. and that is just not how i play the game no matter how bad it may make me look what horrordude0215 wrote: back there was scummy enough to put themself on my radar. for give me if i seem diffrent in my play style then all of you but it's just the way i do thing's.

You seem a little quick to point your finger at horrordude. His question about which faction you prefer seemed like a scumhunting technique to me. Maybe it was to gauge how certain people feel toward playing a specific faction and compare it to how they're playing this game? Even if he was scum, he knows who town is, so asking which one they prefer isn't going to help them find the power roles if there are any. They'll just get information they already know.

[horrordude0215]

I'll answer the other questions when I get back (I'm going to a friends house), but razorback, could I get a link of your completed games? According to your wiki, you only have 1 game, and to be an SE you have to have 2+ completed games.

Thanks!

[popsofctown]

we also have 1/9 or 2/9 (depending on the setup) chance of catching a power role, if there is one. Furthermore, we also have a 7/9 chance of catching a pro-town role.

Or 0/9's.

[popsofctown]

um, if the mod could fix that abysmall quote tagging, that'd be nice.

You're welcome, Pops. =] ~Kitty

[KittyMo]

Vote Count III:

[2] horrordude0215 - (Exilon, popsofctown)

[2] Exilon - (skerterg, horrordude0215)
[2] skerterg - (razorback, ahoda)
[1] popsofctown - (kelikar)
[1] razorback - (Red Star)

[0] ahoda - ()
[0] keikar - ()
[0] Kranix - ()
[0] Red Star - ()

[1]

Not voting

- ( Kranix)

With

9

alive, it's

5

to lynch!

Deadline is at Wednesday, April 28, 2010 at 4:00:00 PM (Sacramento time)

Prods:

Kranix

has gone more than 48 hours without posting and may be prodded on request. If he goes more than 72 hours without posting, he will be prodded.

"Beware: some liars tell the truth" - Arab Proverb

"Lying is done with words and also with silence." - Adrienne Rich

"We are drowning in information but starved for knowledge." - John Naisbitt

[Exilon]

we also have 1/9 or 2/9 (depending on the setup) chance of catching a power role,

if there is one

.

That possibility (0/9) was there from the start, pops xD

well i think any one that ask's about roles happen's to fall under role fishing. and that is just not how i play the game no matter how bad it may make me look what horrordude0215 wrote: back there was scummy enough to put themself on my radar. for give me if i seem diffrent in my play style then all of you but it's just the way i do thing's.

You seem a little quick to point your finger at horrordude. His question about which faction you prefer seemed like a scumhunting technique to me. Maybe it was to gauge how certain people feel toward playing a specific faction and compare it to how they're playing this game? Even if he was scum, he knows who town is, so asking which one they prefer isn't going to help them find the power roles if there are any. They'll just get information they already know.

Hum, I think they always get information they don't know; asking where they like to play looks like an icebreaking question to me, though.

Refusing to answer is one reaction which can give us lots of information, actually - maybe more than actually one or other answer he could have given to a question about game theory (but he did answer his question about scumhunting, even if there was one or two grains of salt). He pointed out what he thought - that he saw those questions as rolefishing. I don't really agree that it was rolefishing rather than an attempt to start discussion (and yey, it worked), but that's beside the point.

I guess this is a little WIFOM, but let's see: (just my quick analysis of it)
If he wanted to lay low (in case he was a power role), he could have just answered the question without giving away anything that could be revealing. If he was scum, rolefishing is favorable to them and therefore he could have, just as easily, answered the question, and no one would look at him for it, since everyone is doing the same thing.

Sure, he pointed a finger, but I guess it wasn't unreasoned, at least from his point of view.

It's late here, so if there's anything a little less coherent tell me and I'll try to address it when I'm a little fresher in the morning xD (I probably shouldn't write when I'm half-asleep, but I couldn't resist; addiction is terrible (addiction to mafiascum? Really? Is that even possible?))

[popsofctown]

Addiction to mafiascum is exceptionally common.

I don't read much on the questions or seeing the questions as rolefishing. Both are perspectives I've seen townies have. So right now I don't feel I have much to go off.

1. I enjoy faster paced games, although it's generally held that town tends to win the slow discussed games and scum tend tend to win the quick ones. Reading players who were forced to make decisions more quickly is more fun to me so, and analysis never gets too burdensome in a fast game.
2. I think psychology is applied logic. So this is like asking if math or physics is more important in determining how a roller coaster will behave. Neither are important, ultimately they are one and the same, just at different levels of examination.
3. Random lynch is better than no lynch. The math works out that you ought to, I can't remember how to spell it out though. You'd have to have far more than a doctor and a cop for the power role issue to make no lynch better.
4. WIFOM isn't really a scumtell.
5. OMGUS isn't really a scumtell. Both of these are just really emprical. Neither is action is really related to the scum wincon.
6. Passive

[skerterg]

3. I can't really say because I don't think I will ever random lynch or no-lynch on day 1 (aside obvious exceptions), but for the sake of it, hypothetically speaking, if we had to choose between totally random lynch or no-lynch on the F11 (this game) setup? I'd go for no-lynch, because, even if we have a 2/9 chance of catching scum, we also have 1/9 or 2/9 (depending on the setup) chance of catching a power role, if there is one. Furthermore, we also have a 7/9 chance of catching a pro-town role. The odds aren't favorable to the town. Even if the death of a townie can give us some information, it doesn't give us as much information as he would give us by contributing to the discussion were he alive the next day. Besides, we're sure that someone is going to get night killed (if it doesn't, it's better, nothing changes except for the fact that we know we avoided the 1/9 chance of hitting the doctor, or the mafia is setting up a fakeclaim which could be risky for them)(and don't forget that since we have a 50% chance of having a cop, we can get a free night of investigations), and that by itself will give us death-related information to go with. We don't get much information for a randomly lynched townie - after all, it was a RANDOM lynch. I know many people say to never "no-lynch" on the first day, but they had the choice of having a justified and discussed lynch.

Exilon, how much information do you think you can get on day 1? Enough for a justified lynch? At least enough to generate some information about each of the player's suspicions and reasons for such? From what I've read, no-lynch is a

bad

idea. It helps the mafia more than the town. I can tell that you were aware that this is the commonly-held view because you acknowledged that "many people say to never 'no-lynch' on the first day," and since no-lynching benefits the mafia, your statement seems like a slightly scummy thing to say.

If everyone accepts a no-lynch on the first day and proceed directly to night (with little discussion), then after we know who has been killed at night, we have slightly more information and a slightly higher chance of randomly catching the mafia (since an innocent is now known, albeit dead). However, we still do not know any information about who the mafia might be; we just eliminated one person. I much rather prefer RVS to this, because at least that generates information on who accused someone first, second, etc. I strongly believe that because Mafia know who their allies are and who regular townie are, their accusations/actions can be analyzed to find them out. In addition to their accusations, their reasons for accusing (once you get past the entertainment-only reasons for the very first RV) can be documented. If there are contradictions or inconsistencies or flip-flopping later, then these can be analyzed to make better judgments later on. The central purpose for day 1 is to even out the information gap between mafia, who have all the information (except for cop, doctor, or lack thereof), and the townies, who are generally bereft of any information. It is at least a head start compared to a no-lynch on day one.

Also, usually if a cop or doctor is at L-1, he/she is expected to roleclaim to prevent a loss. Of course, this gets into the issue of what the game setup is, whether a mafia is fake roleclaiming, etc. but at least we will have the name of the person to suspect.

Sorry for the slightly lengthy post. It is getting late for me, so if anything is unclear, feel free to ask.

[popsofctown]

hb

[Exilon]

Happy birthday, by the way, skerterg =D

Exilon, how much information do you think you can get on day 1? Enough for a justified lynch? At least enough to generate some information about each of the player's suspicions and reasons for such?

I hope I understood this the right way.
There's always a lynch on Day 1, so for at least 3 people the lynch is justified, otherwise they wouldn't have voted... Right? (Assuming "justified lynch" is any lynch whose votes had (good) reasoning behind it). And we can always generate information, be it enough or not (but what is enough for each person depends on themselves).

Apart from that, what you said is nice and all (and I do agree with the explanation you gave for the no-lynch, note) but I think you're missing some points, which I addressed in the original post.

If you're going to say "your statement seems like a slightly scummy thing to say", let it be known that selective quoting, which is what you did, is grounds for much more suspicion, not to mention it invalidates any reason you have for saying what you said. Let me explain this better:

I can tell that you were aware that this is the commonly-held view because you acknowledged that "many people say to never 'no-lynch' on the first day," and since no-lynching benefits the mafia, your statement seems like a slightly scummy thing to say.

Your reasoning, as stated in this post - is the following:
Exilon supports no-lynch --> Supporting no-lynch is scummy --> Exilon is scummy.

But that's not what I said, or rather, you're missing the context. I didn't say "I support no-lynch period". The original sentence read "I know many people say to never "no-lynch" on the first day,

but they had the choice of having a justified and discussed lynch.

". You purposedly left that last part untouched, paying attention to only the other. In the context provided, and I

stated this

, if we had to choose between a

TOTALLY RANDOM

lynch, (as in: "let's just spin a roulette with our names and whoever gets choosen dies, no questions asked") and a no-lynch, I'd go for a no-lynch. In this exact (and hypothetical context), we don't get any kind of information either way, so I'd go for no-lynch (and I explained why thorougly in the post, I believe).

It's like you only grabbed one half-sentence from that excerpt, even though you quoted the whole answer, and used it to point a finger and enter a full-fledged dissertation about why no-lynch is bad - but not in the same context that I used to answer my question.

I don't really like giving names to stuff (because I'm awful with definitions, it seems), but could you call this... strawmanning?

[razorback]

I'll answer the other questions when I get back (I'm going to a friends house), but razorback, could I get a link of your completed games? According to your wiki, you only have 1 game, and to be an SE you have to have 2+ completed games.

Thanks!

i'm sorry but most of them are not finished and that wolud get me a mod kill. so if you wnat them look them up under my name i'm not risking my ass for those link's not in this game. i made that mistake once and will not agian.

[popsofctown]

razorback, you need 2+ COMPLETED games to be an SE. It's totally fine to post links to COMPLETED games.

[skerterg]

Ah, thanks, Exilon. I didn't understand what you meant by saying "they had a choice of having a justified and discussed lynch." Doesn't everyone have the choice for a justified and discussed lynch, and therefore no-lynch won't occur?

We need more discussion! Where's ahoda and especially kranix?

[ahoda]

i've been reading. just haven't had a reason to post

[horrordude0215]

Here's a question for you horrordude: It's getting close to LYLO and the town is having a mass claim. One of the people claims watcher and posts all their results. You happen notice that they actually found scum, but never announced, even though they had the result almost 5 game days before the scum was lynched. How do you react? (This is based on a Mafia game from another forum that I forgot about.)

I would think it’s a bit suspicious, sure… but before jumping to conclusions, I would ask them WHY they didn't reveal their results... then if they didn't give me an acceptable answer, lynch them! lol

In sincerity though, why was I given a softball? Why don't I get a theory question like everyone else?

I just like screwing with the IC... it's always fun!

1. Do you prefer a faster paced game or a slower game with discussion?

Medium paced... if a game is too slow, it drags on forever, and then the group loses interest.

2. Do you think online mafia is more a psychological game or a logic game?

I think it's more logical... putting the pieces of the puzzle together is more important than why the person said something, in my opinion

3. On day 1, do you think that a random lynch is better than no lynch?

Always. The only time you should no lynch is when if you mislynch, you lose. (IE 3 townies, 1 scum)

4. Do you think that WIFOM is a scumtell?

If that's their only argument, then probably yes.

5. Do you think that OMGUS is a scumtell?

Not always... if you're just shooting down logic or providing your own, it's fine. But if they're just voting for someone without giving reason, then yes. (Unless it's RVS)

6. Would you classify your playstyle as aggresive, analytical, passive or other (if so, state what).

I'm really not sure what my playstyle is yet... I'm experimening with some new things and learning the pros and cons of each type... I'll let you know the answer to that when I figure it out lol.

My answers are in bold.

you know i'm nopt going for that whole role fishing plan like they did i'm smart enough to see past that.

It wasn't role fishing, it was just to help with discussion... defensive much?

well i think any one that ask's about roles happen's to fall under role fishing. and that is just not how i play the game no matter how bad it may make me look what horrordude0215 wrote: back there was scummy enough to put themself on my radar. for give me if i seem diffrent in my play style then all of you but it's just the way i do thing's.

I wasn't asking about your role... I was just asking you a simple question. I have no idea what you're trying to say after the colon though, so I can't really respond to it lol

i'm sorry but most of them are not finished and that wolud get me a mod kill. so if you wnat them look them up under my name i'm not risking my ass for those link's not in this game. i made that mistake once and will not agian.

Again, this seems to be pretty defensive... I'm not asking for a link to your ongoing games, just your completed ones.

i've been reading. just haven't had a reason to post

That's called lurking... you may want to avoid that in the future. You couldn't find anything you could comment on though?


So far I haven't seen much stick out as scummy to me except Razor's overdefensiveness, which I see as a scumtell.

Unvote, vote razorback