Mini 1003 Mafia - Game Over

[RetroAudio]

V/LA: 1 Day

Sorry, I am having alot of shit to do now >.<

[Mindgamer]

well... quite the opposite; voting aggressively helps getting a discussion started, helps wake people up a little... I always found it an useful tactic in the early game when there is just little information available...

It also makes it so that you don't have to take responsibility for your early game votes, which is not good.

Questions!

b) how would you characterize your playing-style?

Unpredictable.

d) what do you think about bandwagons?

Bandwagons (not to be confused with lynchwagons) are awesome. They are an effective way of putting pressure on players and they give a lot of information (who is willing to join a certain bandwagon, who isn't? For what reason? Etc.). Bandwagons are also imo the perfect way to get out of RVS.

e) what do you think about RVS?

I think it sucks. RVS barely stimulates discussion, can go on for very long and is pretty much a time waster. There are much better game starters, for example bandwagons.

Secondly, I feel like you're acting quite scummy yourself. Taking it upon yourself to cement a pro-town position among us all, by actively posting. In addition, your spreading of blame that almost nears contempt of other players seems to further this idea. In your posts you have attacked Chihuahua, Tripod, Tasky, Clockwork and erratically attacked RetroAudio. Then when we add to this my first part, Mafia know who their enemies are, a full on attack towards Chihuahua, who obviously acts more newb than scum seems suspicious.

I disagree. Attacking and pressuring other players is a very effective scumhunting method. Why do you think this is scummy?
You also say that cementing a pro-town position is scummy... Being pro-town is being scummy now? I'd like you to elaborate on your post.

[Tasky]

Sorry I haven't posted; I'm away from home at the moment and have very limited Internet access. I posted this in my other game, but I forgot about this one. I'll read up and begin posting as soon as possible.

Again, sorry for the delay.

please answer the questions... do something... stop posting useless things!

First to everyone (including Tasky) – please answer questions b,d, and e that Tasky posed. I’ll start –

a) which role do you prefer to play (no esoteric roles please)? in particular, do you prefer being mafia or townie?

– This is a pointless WIFOM exercise.

b) how would you characterize your playing-style?

– I’m very analytical and tend to post in large chunks, as should be obvious by now.

c) if you were to cast an arbitrary vote, who would you vote for?

– We realistically have cleared RVS at this stage so this serves no purpose.

d) what do you think about bandwagons? –

Forming wagons is an important part of the daytime play in finding scum. They provide a myriad of information. Jumping on a wagon with little to no reasoning is generally scummy, especially when repeated.

e) what do you think about RVS? –

It’s best made as short as possible. Content is better than randomness. That said you can gather information from RVS actions.

I really think a) should be answered, at least for interest... I just want to hear the truth... you like playing scum, tell it; you like playing townie, say it...
question c) was actually for AWA, since he skipped the RVS...

now my answers:

a) which role do you prefer to play (no esoteric roles please)? in particular, do you prefer being mafia or townie?

– I prefer playing townie in face-to-face-games, cause one can risk more, and really has to play well in order to achieve something... first time I play online-mafia, so I can't answer about that

b) how would you characterize your playing-style?

– (again this is more my face-to-face-style, online-style still has to be formed) I like taking control of the game, ask a lot of questions, but I usually start really attacking people only after a while of talking and some information came up.

d) what do you think about bandwagons? –

I really don't like early bandwagons, especially lynchwagons... they help scum find easy targets to jump on... I can accept that in online-mafia that's the best you have (since you don't have facial expression, and similar) to provoke a notable reaction, but still the face-to-face-mafia-player in me keeps me from liking them.

e) what do you think about RVS? –

I don't think RVS is totally random except somebody is really voting with dice... and I think that scum will be more likely to target townies than scum, even in RVS (even if subconsciously)... therefore I do like the idea of getting some statistical baseline at the start of the game... but, I have to say I prefer RQS (which is more like I play in f-t-f-games)...

as somebody already said, only scum (well, and masons or similar things) can act coordinated in mafia, for townies that's just plain impossible

Blatantly untrue. Town can get a group of players who have strong Town reads together and work in a coordinated fashion. It only tends to be useful in larger games but it can happen.

well... this is definitely not going to happen in early game where each townie is on it's own... of course later in the game townies will start to form "groups of trust" but they can never be totally sure of them (except aforementioned masons or something related to cops)
and so the effectivity drops... and, btw, this does not have to happen, in my experience this happens rarely

each fresh, new thoughts help the town by adding information to the discussion in one way or another... so, scum can either try to say something irrelevant or even anti-town and masking it up as a logical argument (the one I classify as fresh, new thought) or they have to do something which takes away the burden of having to contribute actively, e.g. bandwagoning

I think you are greatly underestimating the ability of scum to present cogent, credible arguments based on poor Town play.

well ok... but you are assuming town is playing poorly... isn't it obvious that a poor playing town will lose?

[Lemon]

@Tripod - To clarify, I'm not calling him a mafia, but I see it as somewhat suspicious.
Chi definitely seems more careless and newblike than a mafia. Unless this is a new mafia strategy, he feels more newb town, referencing the wiki.

@Mindgamer - It may be effective scumhunting, but it is also effective in diverting attention from yourself. And he probably isn't the first to act really pro-town to shake off suspicions. Obviously pro-town is usually for the town, but Magna's type of pro-town pushing seems to be doing is spreading suspicions and attention elsewhere, diverting them from himself.

[Zang]

Votecount-

Chihuahua0 - 1 - (MagnaofIllusion) (L-6)
Mindgamer - 1 - (Tasky) (L-6)
Lemon - 1 - (Mindgamer) (L-6)
nopointinactingup - 1 - (chihuahua0) (L-6)
youngminii - 1 - (RetroAudio) (L-6)
Tasky - 1 - (nopointinactingup) (L-6)
MagnaofIllusion - 1 - (youngminii) (L-6)

Not Voting: AWA, Lemon, AClockworkMelon, Untrod Tripod, Equinox

7 to lynch

Deadline is July 20 at 9:00 pm EDT

[Equinox]

I'm going to get to analyzing all the posts during my absence, but I guess I can do these first:

a) which role do you prefer to play (no esoteric roles please)? in particular, do you prefer being mafia or townie?
b) how would you characterize your playing-style?
c) if you were to cast an arbitrary vote, who would you vote for?
d) what do you think about bandwagons?
e) what do you think about RVS?

1. Townie. There's freedom in being a townie that one doesn't have with any other role, mainly because a townie has no worries about self-preservation.
2. No idea. Really. I just go with it. >_>
3. Wait, didn't we just go through a round of RVS? What is this question for? (For the record, I voted for nopointinactingup. If I were to vote now, it'd be Tasky.)
4. Bandwagons are a good way to get reactions from people and clarify reads, as long as it's a legitimate and well-backed wagon. Bandwagons are also good stuff to analyze, before and after flips.
5. RVS is a good way to get a game started. Better than RQS, IMO, since RQS leads to theory discussion, which is both useless and anti-town because it distracts people from scum hunting. Save the theory stuff for the Mafia Discussion forum. :/

[MagnaofIllusion]

I think I'll come to the defense of Chi to the newbie card. Firstly, we're SCUMHUNTING. His mistakes scream more newb than scum. Attacking him would only rid him from the game and prove useless to the town in the long run.

You seem to be confused. Newbie is not a game alignment. Scum is. I don’t give any leeway to players outside of the Road to Rome for what you are calling “newb” play. The place for that is the Newbie cue. Once you venture from Newbie’s friendly confines I assume you are confident in your ability to play the game. Mistakes made are mistakes made and worthy of examination.

I’ll state it plainly once again … bad play is bad play. You may blindly believe that it can only be attributed to Newb Town play if you wish. I will not.

Please explain what you mean by “attacking him would only rid him from the game”. Do you mean he’s likely to replace out? Do you mean by lynch? In either case how do you assume it will prove ‘useless’ to Town in the long run. Are you stating you know Chi’s alignment?

Secondly, I feel like you're acting quite scummy yourself. Taking it upon yourself to cement a pro-town position among us all, by actively posting.

So you find it scummy to actively post? Your basis for Mafia theory is certainly different than mine

In addition, your spreading of blame that almost nears contempt of other players seems to further this idea. In your posts you have attacked Chihuahua, Tripod, Tasky, Clockwork and erratically attacked RetroAudio.

I’m going to address concerns and question players as much as I like. It’s called scum-hunting. Your use of loaded phrases like “spreading of blame that almost nears contempt” is noted. I’m going to ‘attack’ every player in the game. I’m looking for scum. Prodding their thinking, motivations and posts is how I do that.

Please back up your statement that I “erratically” attacked RA. I see nothing erratic at all. If anything it appears another attempt by yourself to use loaded phrasing.

Then when we add to this my first part, Mafia know who their enemies are, a full on attack towards Chihuahua, who obviously acts more newb than scum seems suspicious.

Funny that you state that the Mafia know who their enemies are. This post by you, if anything, looks like a Chainsaw defence for Chi.

Chi definitely seems more careless and newblike than a mafia. Unless this is a new mafia strategy, he feels more newb town, referencing the wiki.

Look up Razorback in Newbie 914 if you want a perfect example of why newb-style play does not indicate alignment. And the Wiki is not a bible of Mafia truth. It’s a handy reference. Appealing to the Wiki’s authority is not Pro-Town.

It may be effective scumhunting, but it is also effective in diverting attention from yourself. And he probably isn't the first to act really pro-town to shake off suspicions. Obviously pro-town is usually for the town, but Magna's type of pro-town pushing seems to be doing is spreading suspicions and attention elsewhere, diverting them from himself.

If it was effective at diverting attention you wouldn’t be making your poorly reasoned attack, would you? If you can come up with some reasonable support for your assetion that my play is scummy please bring it up and I’ll address them. Otherwise your “Too Town for Town” argument is just a WIFOM exercise.

I look forward to your future attacks on other Pro-Town players

I really think a) should be answered, at least for interest... I just want to hear the truth... you like playing scum, tell it; you like playing townie, say it...

Regardless of what you want to hear what scum-hunting purpose does it serve? You aren’t going to get any useable evidence formt he responses. It’s simply busywork.

well... this is definitely not going to happen in early game where each townie is on it's own... of course later in the game townies will start to form "groups of trust" but they can never be totally sure of them (except aforementioned masons or something related to cops) and so the effectivity drops... and, btw, this does not have to happen, in my experience this happens rarely

You said it was impossible. That’s clearly wrong. It may not happen often but I have seen it used effectively in games of all sizes on this and other sites.

well ok... but you are assuming town is playing poorly... isn't it obvious that a poor playing town will lose?

When I say poor Town play I mean individual players, not the group as a whole. One or more players playing in a scummy manner can give Scum plenty of chances to display Pro-Town style “scum-hunting”.

Nopoint and RA

– we could really use some solid input from both of you.

MOD – I’ll be V/LA from today at 4pm EDT until Tuesday for the holiday weekend. I probably will be able to check the thread but may not be able to post significantly in that time.

[RetroAudio]

a) which role do you prefer to play -
Mafia, it fits my playstyle well.

I don't know why.

b) how would you characterize your playing-style? –

Defensive, Misleading and Innocent

c) if you were to cast an arbitrary vote, who would you vote for? –

Someone who has both a penis and a vagina. Alternatively, someone who has no votes.

d) what do you think about bandwagons? -

Bandwagons (not to be confused with lynchwagons) are awesome. They are an effective way of putting pressure on players and they give a lot of information (who is willing to join a certain bandwagon, who isn't? For what reason? Etc.). Bandwagons are also imo the perfect way to get out of RVS.

e) what do you think about RVS? –

A quicksand

[RetroAudio]

Tasky, you were suspicious at your behavior at Page 2. Take note: It was an RVS Period, and yet you were so sketchy and too inquiring.

Why is a bandwagon suspicious? Answer please.

chihuahua, I bet your balls are sweating.. Mr... Too nervous and trying to conceal it with "humorous" shit?

[RetroAudio]

UNVOTE
VOTE: Tasky

[youngminii]

chihuahua, I bet your balls are sweating.. Mr... Too nervous and trying to conceal it with "humorous" shit?

That's exactly what I said and everyone came to his defense holding up the newbie card.

Is that even allowed? I mean, maybe he slips up more scumtells because he's a newbie. Yay WIFOM.

[Tasky]

Tasky, you were suspicious at your behavior at Page 2. Take note: It was an RVS Period, and yet you were so sketchy and

too inquiring

.

tell me why "too inquiring" is a bad thing... inquiries bring information, information exposes scum => inquiry is good
so in your opinion the RVS is when everybody leans back and does nothing? how is one supposed to get out of that period then?

Why is a bandwagon suspicious? Answer please.

as I stated, my real-life-mafia experience tells me that scum really likes to jump on other peoples bandwagons, so that they can attack someone without having to put much arguments behind it... I already accepted that in online-mafia it can be different since there is no possibility of face/emotion-read but still I keep an eye on people who are to eager to bandwagon

b) how would you characterize your playing-style? –

Defensive, Misleading and Innocent

could you please explain this point a little better? what exactly do you mean by misleading? isn't that a bad thing?
how is "innocent" a playing-style?

[Tasky]

oh, btw:

FoS: RetroAudio

[RetroAudio]

scum really likes to jump on other peoples bandwagons

Actually, the scum will try to break bandwagons if it makes good points. They will and will like the town going nuts. Deal with that fact. Bandwagons isn't the same with

"FUCK YES! LET'S LYNCH HIM".

It's extracting information, applying pressure, getting reactions and an emotion depressant.

Tell me why "too inquiring" is a bad thing

Too inquiring

is synonymous to

obvious pointless defensiveness

if it is used to point out

Day 1:

RVS

behaviour. Now how is it a bad thing? hmm.

could you please explain this point a little better?

I answered the question with a smile on my face, without thinking of any better term to describe it. You may ask Mindgamer about how I really play, lol.

[Untrod Tripod]

Tasky, you were suspicious at your behavior at Page 2. Take note: It was an RVS Period, and yet you were so sketchy and too inquiring.

Why is a bandwagon suspicious? Answer please.

chihuahua, I bet your balls are sweating.. Mr... Too nervous and trying to conceal it with "humorous" shit?

A bandwagon in and of itself is not suspicious. Someone who is consistently one of the last couple votes on a wagon or consistently hops on wagons with little to no original ideas or clear reasoning is suspicious. Simply following the voting patterns of more vocal players is suspicious. Being overly aggressive is suspicious, especially when you're criticizing someone for something that's been commented on a lot. Throwing votes on people with little to no reasoning is suspicious.

UNVOTE
VOTE: Tasky

Let's having something beyond "sketchy" and "too inquiring". "Sketchy" is what you call that guy who feeds chicks liquor until they don't mind the fact that he's tattooed on 85% of his body and lives with his grandparents. Tasky is not sketchy (as far as I know) and I'm uncertain as to how you can be "sketchy" in a game of mafia. Check on how popular usage of that word goes. It doesn't mean what you seem to think it means.

I don't mean to be overly critical, but your last couple of posts are throwing up a lot of red flags for me.

[Tasky]

scum really likes to jump on other peoples bandwagons

Actually, the scum will try to break bandwagons if it makes good points. They will and will like the town going nuts. Deal with that fact. Bandwagons isn't the same with

"FUCK YES! LET'S LYNCH HIM".

It's extracting information, applying pressure, getting reactions and an emotion depressant.

noted your selective quoting there... I said much more than just that... go reread my post

Tell me why "too inquiring" is a bad thing

Too inquiring

is synonymous to

obvious pointless defensiveness

if it is used to point out

Day 1:

RVS

behaviour. Now how is it a bad thing? hmm.

how can "inquiring" be synonymous to "pointless defensiveness"?? really don't get that point

could you please explain this point a little better?

I answered the question with a smile on my face, without thinking of any better term to describe it. You may ask Mindgamer about how I really play, lol.

why don't you tell me... what do you fear in telling us your playing style?

what exactly do you mean by misleading? isn't that a bad thing?
how is "innocent" a playing-style?

you dodged this questions... I'd really like you to answer them

[RetroAudio]

No, because I don't have any idea how to say it myself *scratches head*
I mean Misleading as in "So close but so far, so far but so close." Innocent is a fail word that popped into my mind, I don't know how also O.O

Sketchy is unsubstantial or imperfect. And I used the term correctly, Tripod.

I'll be sleeping, good night.

[Tasky]

I'm definitely going to vote RetroAudio now... for totally dodging my questions:
UNVOTE: Mindgamer
VOTE: RetroAudio

[nopointinactingup]

and another thing... I'd really want to hear from AWA... he/she hasn't said anything execpt "/confirm"
just so you can find in the game and make up a little for the information you owe us, how about answering this questions:
a) which role do you prefer to play (no esoteric roles please)? in particular, do you prefer being mafia or townie?
b) how would you characterize your playing-style?
c) if you were to cast an arbitrary vote, who would you vote for?
d) what do you think about bandwagons?
e) what do you think about RVS?

@mod: please prod AWA

a> Either is fine.
b> It could be anything.
c> Lemon
d> Pro-town, as explained by the above. It's one of the best ways around to stimulate discussion.
e> I don't like it, but it's sorta the only way to start things.

@Chi: Playing the newb card hardly works on Newbie games let alone these kinds of thread, so if you joined the game in this thread, please treat it seriously. If you are town, we expect you to be rational, scum-hunt and provide your arguments. If you fail to do so, the town will likely lynch you whether we feel you are town or not because doing nothing and providing no input while remaining a big question is totally Anti-town.
Some Questions for you:
1> Are you Scum?
2> How do you hope to find scums?
3> How do you feel about Magma's attack on you?

@Lemon: Though I believe we shouldn't be all on Chi for his posts, I completely object to putting up with Chi as she is now. If she doesn't know how to get stuff done then we have to show her the hard way, not the easy way. And I believe that's what Magma is trying to do. Of course, if he was just trying to find an easy lynch target then we would know once the wagon started, but right now it's hard to say anything about Magma.

@Magma: I still think Chi's play and Lemon's defense for Chi is null, but I'd like to here their replies.

[Untrod Tripod]

scum really likes to jump on other peoples bandwagons

Actually, the scum will try to break bandwagons if it makes good points. They will and will like the town going nuts. Deal with that fact. Bandwagons isn't the same with

"FUCK YES! LET'S LYNCH HIM".

It's extracting information, applying pressure, getting reactions and an emotion depressant.

This is just imo, but I don't really see why scum would try to break a bandwagon if it's not on them. I would think that scum would want the focus to not be on them whereas a townie would be eager to prove their innocence. Then again, a scum would be eager to prove their innocence too if the spotlight was on them. I don't think there's a set behavior for bandwagons for any alignment. It's really more circumstantial. I'm kind of not digging your tone here of "listen, dude, I know what I'm talking about. This is what scum do, "deal with that fact". You're not really proving any kind of authority here with your posts, so your implicit statement of "I know what I'm talking about, guize" is sitting really uneasily with me.

Tell me why "too inquiring" is a bad thing

Too inquiring

is synonymous to

obvious pointless defensiveness

if it is used to point out

Day 1:

RVS

behaviour. Now how is it a bad thing? hmm.

Ok, uh...inquiry would be aggressive. Tasky is aggressive. Defensiveness is kind of what you're doing right now

could you please explain this point a little better?

I answered the question with a smile on my face, without thinking of any better term to describe it. You may ask Mindgamer about how I really play, lol.

way to ignore the question, buddy

RA gets my vote and it'll stay there until I get a good reason to move it.

vote RetroAudio

[AClockworkMelon]

b) how would you characterize your playing-style?

Dry.

d) what do you think about bandwagons?

I'd rather people vote for someone because they think they're scum than because they want to follow a trend.

e) what do you think about RVS?

I think it's unnecessary but I've never been in a game in which it wasn't used so I can't be sure.

[chihuahua0]

I'm lost here. I need some time to read over the last few pages.


a) which role do you prefer to play (no esoteric roles please)? in particular, do you prefer being mafia or townie?

Anything besides Townie.

b) how would you characterize your playing-style?

Talkative and accusing. I post too much.

c) if you were to cast an arbitrary vote, who would you vote for?

Hmm...do you mean random votes? Or votes between two wagons.

d) what do you think about bandwagons?

If the person is condemned as scummy, yes. Policy vote wagons are fine too.

e) what do you think about RVS?

I don't know what it is.

[chihuahua0]

@nopoinatactingup:

I'll answer your questions.

1> Are you Scum?

This is a test question, and almost any answer I use here will be used against me. No answer.

2> How do you hope to find scums?

The moment someone slips up and everyone piles onto him/her.

3> How do you feel about Magma's attack on you?

I need to go back a little bit to look at it, but I have a gut feeling that he might be using me.

[chihuahua0]

On another thought, he's just pointing out flaws in my logic, like if this is a Newbie game. I keep starting these games on the wrong foot, which might affect my metagame, if I stay on this site.

[AClockworkMelon]

1> Are you Scum?

This is a test question, and almost any answer I use here will be used against me. No answer.

If you had said "no", how could we have used it against you?