Open 260 - Tit For Tat - Game Over

[Gonzoooo]

I have pointed out your contraddiction: you accused people of being scummy because they did not push for lynches (saporo) and at the same time you suspect every single player who joined the only bw that was created so far.

This does not make sense. 1) I can't push every single lynch cause I only have one vote. 2) I don't suspect every single player on the Consig wagon. I haven't said I suspected you at all have I? Your point is that I'm playing aggressively. Guess what, that's not a scumtell.

Still, if u regard as poor performers both voters and non-voters, it is hard to understand your definition of sucm-hunt. Is it perhaps "doing exactly what Gonzooo wants"? I always look for contraddictions. You are always aggressive, I always point out contraddictions. I will tolerate your style, you better tolerate mine.

Really this is such a bad argument. Yes, both

bad

voters and non-voters are playing either poorly or scummily; you know how to avoid doing that? By actually using some critical thinking skills and not just sheeping the largest, lamest wagon. There's no contradiction there because you're creating a false dilemma between the choices of bad bandwagon and no bandwagon when there's always an option of a good wagon instead. So your style of "pointing out contradictions" isn't reality; instead it's "create false dilemmas and intentionally/mistakenly paint pro-town players as scum" and I see no reason to tolerate that style.

Vote Count

Consigliere (2) - implosion, werewolf555
werewolf555 (2) - saporovirus, Gonzoooo
Zhero (1) - don_johnson
Gonzoooo (1) - lewarcher82
mallowgeno (1) - smashbro_of_the_SSS

Not Voting (5) - Consigliere, Xenophon, Powerrox93, mallowgeno, Zhero

With 12 alive it is 7 to lynch. The deadline is set for the end of November 21st, PST.

[lewarcher82]

ok gonzooo, I am starting to get a little irritated. It is a fact that yo quickly dismissed several attempts at scum-hunting by several players; I am the one who called you scummy, but other players contested your way of acting as if you were sure about a lot of things.
If you made a little intellectual effort, which you are not doing, you would realise that some things you made are in fact superficial, and may look scummy.

I am choosing an example. When you quoted a post of mine to criticise the fact that some players were voting consig because of his vote on an empty player, I had already explained that I was not voting him for that very reason. Still your post was an answer to me. I pointed it out, you denied it, and then you changed version and said that you were speaking *also* to me. This change of version is something that would be regarded as scummy, because superficial reasons for defending a player are scummy.

This is just an example. You are extremely vain and arrogant, you assume to know better than anyone and I highly doubt yo do. As a matter of fact, this, and the fact that you omit the "I think"'s from your posts, make it very umpleasant to deal with you.

As for the "contraddictions", every little unconsistency in the level of attention of a given player is interesting, you would be surprised by how well it actually works. Naturally it is not a "contraddiction" in a formal way of speaking (you did not say "P and ~P"). It highly depends on the fact that I consider empty all the arguments you presented to defend consigliere, therefore I still resist yor definition of "bad voter".

Replacements: it is not good that so many players left or lurk. I agree that there is not much we can do before the repl are found... I can go on arguing with gonzoooo, but it would probably mean repeating the same conversation over and over again.

[don_johnson]

1) A BW to L-2 on Day 1 is not poor play. In fact it is a standard procedure to investigate the reactions of the players (not just the voted one).
2) chill the f**k out. I am sick of players who react as if we were about to lynch someone on lylo, which we aren't.
3) That a BW on scum this early would not see this much agreement is false. In fact, it is extremely rare that the first BW of day one ends with an actual lynch.
4) I never used the argument of Consigliere voting a non-existing player to support my vote. If you want to criticise, please read the posts.
5) That this is not your first game is not "relevant", but it does not help because concealing previous games prevents us to know your meta. And since everybody reacts as if we just washed our faces with hot chili pepper sauce, I will already excplicitely state that this is not at all scummy, it just limits my skills at reading you.

1) I agree to a degree. I think you should be trying to form good bandwagons and not terribad ones in hopes of catching the scum at the tail end of it. Conversely, I've been pointing out who I think is scummy on the Consig wagon.
2) Ah no, if I think you're acting scummy, you're getting the full attack. I play to win and every lynch counts.
3)Your'e not making sense. My point is that scum are not going to immediately bus their buddies this early in the game and I appear to be the lone voice of reason in the wilderness of stupidity that is the Consig wagon. This is not town driven. That's what I'm saying.
4)I was not only speaking to you as you're not the only one on the Consig wagon.
5) That's fine. I don't think meta would be relevant anyhow.

1) The answers you gave me are acceptable only in part. I have motivated my vote on Consigliere, which you seem to keep ignoring, It was no strong motivation, but it was the best BW I saw until I read this post.
2) An excess of aggressivity in early game is a relevant element that can even look scummy. No one was lynching Consig, but it looked like you wanted us to unvote really bad. Deal with it.
3) I said my opinion, you said yours. If I were scum, I would join the first BW regardless from the alignment of the voted player, and then I would cautiously get off.
4) Your post 92 was directed to me. Deal with it, again, and do not lie so early in the game. Save it for later.
5) It always is.

^^ this reads like a disagreement.

He's also made lengthly comments that are overtly irrelevant - his "sugar hangover" comment, the Hunter S. Thompson comment.

This is hyperbole. "lengthy comments" probably can't be translated into one liners about HST. He is active lurking, but my problem is that people are trying to trump it up cause he's an easy target that probably isn't going to fight back. I don't like defending other players, but in this case you guys are grasping so badly at whatever and Consig is apparently too lazy to point out these issues that I had to intervene.

Long comments with no content qualify as filler. Filler can be scummy, but in some cases is just a naive mistake. Still, I do not like the way you deny the relevance of this point.

i think the point is that gonzo disagrees with what you have deemed a "relevant" point. filler might be scummy on page 19, but in the early game, many players goof around.

Are you saying that you are 100% sure that Consig is town? If so, how? You say it's because nothing separates him from others... well first of all, there are things. And second of all, even if so, so what? How would that make him definite town?

My "bumbling town" read on him, as I would call it, has been explained pretty thoroughly actually. The fact that his wagon exploded so quickly and so early in the game over weak arguments makes it unlikely to be on scum. Am I 100% certain? Of course not. But I am confident enough in that read to try and stop a bad wagon from being followed through. My goal is to lynch scum, not VIs. I'm starting to see that this player list has trouble distinguishing between the two. This is unfortunate because it's going to take you guys days to wake up and lynch a scum if this is the best you can play.

No, your read was not thoroughly explained. You just answered "he is just a confused newby" to all the questions.

being a "confused newby" constitutes an explanation.

saporo: has also been active in the discussion. Has also done nothing scummy that I see. Also probtown.

I was thinking town too, but now I'm starting to get skeptical. I felt like saporo was more in your face in the RVS stage and I liked that. Now she's being kind of wimpy and not pushing much for lynches. My town read keeps plummeting on her.

saporo is being active; besides, the only players who "pushed for lynches", as you weridly define the voting on day 1, are the ones on a BW that you criticize.

not sure what you are implying here. active =/= town.

tbh, i think you are both in the throes of a "disagreement". i don't see anything too scummy from either side. i don't see either of you making shit up, just not agreeing on what is important and who is doing what.

[Alduskkel]

ThAdmiral replaces xenophon.

[ThAdmiral]

Confirming. Will read up and post as soon as possible.

[lewarcher82]

welcome to the game Admiral

[Zhero]

Hey Admiral, thanks for replacing!

Mallow, thoughts on the game?

[werewolf555]

Now that we have a replacement, we might get somewhere.

[ThAdmiral]

imo, one of the biggest challenges facing a scum player is "fitting in" during the rvs. i think scum may tend to "overcompensate for randomness" in their votes. i.e. they have to try a little harder than everyone else to make their votes look fun and random. not only was the smiley use excessive here, but it was also his

second

vote in the rvs. also, if you'll notice, the joke doesn't even fit right, as consig clearly confirmed in the post lewarcher is responding to. so yeah, its a serious vote. is it a "super serious not gonna ever change my vote no matter what happens" vote? i'll let you figure that one out.

This is actually decent analysis. And lewarcher's sarcastic response to the initial vote is also scummy.

It continues...
Lewarcher tries to play it down, tries to play it casual:

naaaa, don't care much about the pressure, the smilies stuff is just a tipical move to end the rvs, which is very much pro-town. I have seen worse than this, in some other games. At a given point you just need to start provoking one player using a "non-random" argument, no matter how silly. Smilies are just this LoL...
but mallowgeno jumped on it, so from my pov it is totally right to keep voting him.

Gonzooo points out something:

Wait, so it's ok for dj to make a non-random vote to get out of the RVS, but mallow should not come and support that vote to further get us out of the RVS? How is that scummy? Seems to me like a wagon with only one person on it isn't much of a wagon. Explain.

Lewarcher responds by backtracking:

you are correct, dj's vote is not right. It is too silly. I was over-generous in my previous post. But I like keeping my vote on mallow better. DJ just gives me the "I'm so smart I see scumtells that other don't heh heh heh" vibe.

I seriously think we've caught scum already.

speaking of lurkers, I am not moving my vote until mallow posts some content.

This is also a classic scum tell, namely constantly justifying one's vote remaining on a player. It is for a really weak reason here as well (with a bit of mudslinging thrown in for good measure).

The only reason I voted lewarcher was to humor Don.

unvote

I hate the rvs.

huh, I honestly didn't see that coming...

And then after he gets an explanation that the vote wasn't serious he doesn't unvote... Why?

@mallowgeno: I did not see that coming, because, even though I am aware that there was no real big case built on the smilies-stuff, I did not read any evidence of humor in your vote. Nor did the others, as far as I see. I would have preferred a post with you insisting on my alleged attempt at overstressing randomness. The fact that you retract this way definitely bothers me.

so my vote stays where it is, for now.

Oh that's why. Another weak reason to keep his vote where it is.
But didn't you say you didn't like his vote initially because you believed he jumped on you supporting a silly argument?

naaaa, don't care much about the pressure, the smilies stuff is just a tipical move to end the rvs, which is very much pro-town. I have seen worse than this, in some other games. At a given point you just need to start provoking one player using a "non-random" argument, no matter how silly. Smilies are just this LoL...
but mallowgeno jumped on it, so from my pov it is totally right to keep voting him.

...yeah, you did. I guess mallow would have been dammed in your eyes no matter what he said, hey?
(btw that's 2 examples of back tracking now).

Lewarcher then jumps on the consigliere wagon. Why?

Consigliere only posted noise and did little more than apologise in all his posts. He states he is new, he states he does not know how to handle nvs, and so on... the mistake discussed here is just a little mistake, not at all scummy, but it does not show he is town, and the rest of his activity is disturbing me.

Yeah, but why is he scum? How does his behavior help him if he is scum.
Oh wait, it doesn't at all!

In his next post he flings mud at gonzo for defending consigliere and asks for "more votes on consigliere".
umm, no.
(gonzo is, like, the only only one making sense by the way)

Perhaps we should lynch Consig, and move from there on to (if he is scum) his most obvious scumbuddies should be lynched the following day.

Vote: Consigilare

Ok so we've found one of lewarcher's scum buddies. Moving on.

I have the feeling that gonzoooo is attacking a lot of players at the same time with rather weak arguments.

Unvote; Vote: Gonzoooo

First of all hypocrisy.
Second of all this is another vote that is not accompanied with an explanation of why he feels this behaviour is scummy, or would help the scum. You know why he isn't thinking about that sort of stuff?

Because he is scum

!
Scum only need to make something that sounds reasonable enough to accompany their vote, something lewarcher has done time and time again.

tl;dr lewarcher is scum, werewolf is his scum-partner.

vote: lewarcher

[ThAdmiral]

welcome to the game Admiral

Now that we have a replacement, we might get somewhere.

Thanks for the warm welcome guys, but I don't think you are going to like me in this game, lol!



Also during my reread I found this little exchange quite funny:

I would say DJ, because his vote on lew "for excessive use of smilies" REEEAAALY confuses me. Why would that, in the RVS, be considered scummy?

As for Consig, I would say that he's a confused town.

quick response there, powerox. vote about "smilies" really shouldn't be confusing. especially since i explained it thoroughly. what about it "confuses" you?

[lewarcher82]

very superficial reasons. I was working just like everyone else to end the RVS. My vote on consig was explained, and keeping it until the player posted content is absolutely justified.

also: mallow was not damned in my eyes no matter what he said LoL
all the votes I did were explained. I also always explained what I was waiting for before unvoting. I always unvoted once I got it.

(the mallow vote is central in your case, still the fact that I ignored the meaning of humor was explained by me in a post that you are neglecting. Either scummy or stupid, but I don't know you yet, but even gonzooo knows better than using the vote on mallow against me)

finally: it is ridicuolous to say that did not explain my vote on gonzooo. I did it in post 106, quite extensively.

I have the feeling I may be biting some scum legs here, given this reaction. Also: do not worry about me not liking you. I never like people. This is an online game, not a birthday party.

[ThAdmiral]

I have the feeling I may be biting some scum legs here, given this reaction.

Do you ever respond to suspicions against you without mudslinging?

[lewarcher82]

I have the feeling I may be biting some scum legs here, given this reaction.

Do you ever respond to suspicions against you without mudslinging?

I am not sure what mudslinging means. According to an online dictionary, it means: "the practice of making unscrupulous, malicious attacks against an opponent, as in a political campaign". I do not see how the sentence you quote qualifies as such. I would rather say that several sentences gonzooo threw at me, discussing my unexperience and lack of skills, would quailfy as such.

[mallowgeno]

All my votes were explained too Lew. Just because you don't like the reason doesn't mean you can discredit them.

[werewolf555]

and Admiral, if you read post 86, you will find that you pulled my quote out of context

[lewarcher82]

When did I question your votes mallow? I only questioned your vote on me, which was first made without giving any reasons, and I was not the only one to note that. As you gave reasons, I unvoted you and moved on. So I am not sure what are the "votes" you are referring to. Can you please explain?

[don_johnson]

wolf makes me chuckle.

thad: if you think they are partners, can we start with werewolf? though i appreciate you noticing my rvs catch, i still harbor the idea that lew can be town.

Mallow, thoughts on the game?

[ThAdmiral]

I am not sure what mudslinging means.

I shall explain:
Mudslinging is, essentially, a defence mechanism that people use to dispel an attack by calling the attacker in to question rather than their arguments.

From post 90

I hope you two are not scumbuddies, cause if you are and you are so obvious at page 5, this game would be kinda spoiled.

You imply gonzo is scum here, i.e. you sling mud on his name, so to speak.
Importantly you don't back it up with anything other than that he is defending someone, which is not an inherently scummy action.

From post 160

I have the feeling I may be biting some scum legs here, given this reaction.

Here you imply I am scum. Once again you don't back it up with any solid reasoning, just that I am accusing you of being scum. You don't, for example, consider that any town player could possibly conceive of your actions being suspicious - which is ridiculous.

[ThAdmiral]

and Admiral, if you read post 86, you will find that you pulled my quote out of context

This is your 86:

Consig is town...he just apparently ate a trunk full of psilocybin before this game began. For realz, if you're voting him over voting someone not in this game, then you're ridiculous. Particularly disappointed in you saporovirus.

???
This is quite a strange defense. He ate a trunk full of psilocybin???????
This is the dumbest thing that I have ever heard, seems like a scum buddy is trying to stick up for another.

Vote: Gonzoooo

This makes your consig vote look worse. If gonzo was indeed defending someone

as scum

there are two reasons why he would do this:
a) defending a scum buddy so he would not be lynched
b) defending a town to get town cred
So given that you think gonzo is scum, and therefore that there would be a fair (I won't say 50%) chance that the person he was defending would be town, it

makes even less sense

that you would then move your vote to consig?

Also the fact that you think someone is scum because they are defending someone is also bad logic. Town defend other people all the time.

[ThAdmiral]

thad: if you think they are partners, can we start with werewolf?

I am more sure of lewarcher

[implosion]

Activity. Yay. Thanks for replacing, Admiral.

I'm really tired from debate right now. I'll post more analysis/etc tomorrow.

[Alduskkel]

Purple Orange replaces Consigliere.

Prodded saporovirus and smashbro_of_the_SSS, both for the 2nd time.

[werewolf555]

Vote: Gonzoooo

This makes your consig vote look worse. If gonzo was indeed defending someone

as scum

there are two reasons why he would do this:

a) defending a scum buddy so he would not be lynched

b) defending a town to get town cred
So given that you think gonzo is scum, and therefore that there would be a fair (I won't say 50%) chance that the person he was defending would be town, it

makes even less sense

that you would then move your vote to consig?

Also the fact that you think someone is scum because they are defending someone is also bad logic. Town defend other people all the time.[/quote]
That is what I believed, and that since consig had more votes, it would be easier to get him lynched because of his previous behavior.

also d_j

wolf makes me chuckle.

Does this have anything to do with my avatar/sig?

[werewolf555]

oh sorry, I failed the quote tags

[Purple Orange]

Hello, folks! Confirming, and will post something a bit more substantial as soon as I can finish giving the thread another read.

I looked through the thread earlier today while waiting for a response from Alduskkel, and my gut impression was lewarcher as town, werewolf as mafia, and everyone else confusing as heck. Not really sure that's the most likely combination, however, given Admiral's posts, and I need to see if it can actually stand up to scrutiny.

Will try to get something up by tomorrow...hopefully it won't be

too

lengthy a text wall.