Open 289 - Hard Boiled - Game over.

[Krazy]

In any case, ythan isn't the nk bait he once was.

Next:

unvote; Vote: TheBigLebowski

[Ythan]

Is RVS meaningless, or just not participating it? Why do you break this up into two parts?

They're the two reasons you provided for maintaining your vote on me when you couldn't use policy anymore.

I questioned Umbrage because he chose to characterize you in that way but not comment on your behavior. This read as positioning.

Characterized me in what way exactly?

You're trying to characterize me as tunneling when you haven't posted anything that was not in direct reaction to me this whole game. All I asked you to do was to participate in the game or provide some commentary on any player other than me, something you still have not done.

I'm through pointing out that you're tunneling. It's not like it's something I have to explain more than once. You're not disputing it, you're turning attention to me, I'm satisfied with the status of the accusation.

You yourself just characterized lurking as reading the thread but not participating in it.

I defined it that way, actually. Don't use weasel words.

Yes, the prod attempt was stupid and probably the only good justification for characterizing me as tunneling you have. Next please?

To clarify an earlier point, I can build a case on you if I wish, and if you dispute the case I will support it. But I need not repeat that you're tunneling until I'm blue in the face. I have said my piece. Asking for more because you don't like it is not good play.

As I mentioned, this is true, insofar as in this regard I was partly tunneling. Next?

You

were

not

partly

tunneling, you are entirely tunneling. At this point you're not asking for better evidence, you're asking for more evidence. This is even worse.

This is not tunneling. You said you read four players, but did not provide any commentary for the isos you did read, despite the fact that you apparently cleared them. You chose to read four isos that is apparently not me and not umbrage; excluding yourself and the lurkers, that's basically every active player in the game. But apparently asking you to share any thought on any player is tunneling.

Unfortunately, I said I was reading players, not active players. The rest of this quote chunk falls apart without that.

Very astute, and true, since that was is where my vote is.

Placing a vote on the player you tunnel does not make it any more acceptable.

If there is a player being ignored, then I tend to focus on them to draw them out.

You specifically chose me, and I am not the only player who fit that criteria. Because you're tunneling.

Although there are several players not posting much, some people were at least commenting on Xto. TBL and Quaroth at the time hadn't posted much, but the length of time still hadn't been that great, so I chose you since you also chose not to participate in RVS.

You began before I posted. Chronological error.

Your current criticisms are that I am tunneling. Very good, and as I mentioned, at least partly true.

At least as in anywhere from partly to entirely.

lolwat? You can go the whole game saying jack shit but you can't wait 10 seconds for me to type up my full response?

You made a post recognizing the post but neither addressing it nor intimating that you had more on the way. I'm not going to give you the benefit of the doubt when this is your play so far.

[Ythan]

So are you going to ever address any player other than me or is this just going to be a quote war?

Are you paying any attention you dolt.

[Krazy]

I questioned Umbrage because he chose to characterize you in that way but not comment on your behavior. This read as positioning.

Characterized me in what way exactly?

Funny or whatever he said. In any case he chose to quote your entire questions+answers with only an impression of how funny they were without actually engaging you.

You yourself just characterized lurking as reading the thread but not participating in it.

I defined it that way, actually. Don't use weasel words.

Okay, you defined it that way. That changes my comment how?

As I mentioned, this is true, insofar as in this regard I was partly tunneling. Next?

You

were

not

partly

tunneling, you are entirely tunneling. At this point you're not asking for better evidence, you're asking for more evidence. This is even worse.

No, Ythan, you are COMPLETELY tunneling. I WAS only partly tunneling. Until you STOP tunneling you will continue to be COMPLETELY tunneling.

The rest of this quote chunk falls apart without that.

Oh, okay, so you've read what, 8 posts in the game now other than mine?

Tunnel harder and faster Ythan, please. You might not make it to China in time for tea, otherwise.

You specifically chose me, and I am not the only player who fit that criteria. Because you're tunneling.

I have explained why I continued to focus on you after the initial (mostly) random vote, and it was certainly partly because I know you have time to get into quote wars like this with me but refuse to even say the name of another player in the game unless they are responding to me.

You began before I posted. Chronological error.

I voted for you before you posted, this isn't the same as focusing on you before you posted.

You made a post recognizing the post but neither addressing it nor intimating that you had more on the way. I'm not going to give you the benefit of the doubt when this is your play so far.

Your post interrupted my EBWOP.

Glad to see you're not willing to give me the benefit of the doubt. I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that you would address other players other than me, and you STILL haven't done this, claiming that I'm trying to occupy too much of your time, when you refuse to address any other player than me. Honestly there is no evidence right now that you have read a single post in this game that did not have my name as a part of it. And then you mount your entire case against me on the basis that I am tunneling on you, saying I'm the only player that you have found interesting (but you apparently can't be bothered to read Umbrage's posts, only my commentary on them).

[Krazy]

So are you going to ever address any player other than me or is this just going to be a quote war?

Are you paying any attention you dolt.

Read your own iso and show me a point where you say the name of a player that is not quoting a post of mine.

[Ythan]

I'm not saying it's scum or town, it just looks odd.

I know I'm not the first to say this, but why bring it up if you don't think it's relevant?

Need to reread the rest of you v Con/you v Snake. It will probably feature this bait issue which at first glance concerns me. I don't like retroactively calling one's suspicious behaviors a town act of baiting.

[Ythan]

So are you going to ever address any player other than me or is this just going to be a quote war?

Are you paying any attention you dolt.

Read your own iso and show me a point where you say the name of a player that is not quoting a post of mine.

As I read through other isos, player by player, I'm going to stop in between each and address the new material in the thread. You are the only other person posting right now. This is not complicated and yet you are doing your best to fail to grasp it.

[Krazy]

I wanted you to take positions, you're taking positions, crisis averted.

I would say that my policy lynch vote on you should make sense by now without having to address the other game, but I know from experience that people can only really understand this by actually talking to you (which truly ironically, my policy lynch vote has apparently given everyone an excuse to not talk to you yet).

[Ythan]

I brought up the xotxm thing to see how people would react, let me get a feel for the people here. I really do doubt ConSpiracy's motives in asking me that question, but my vote on him was mainly to see how you reacted to a serious vote early in RVS. Just my little way of getting to know you.

So the reason that you singled out that xtoxm (going to call this guy tom from here on out so I don't have to think about the x's every time I type his name) post was to look for reactions? Why that post? Why the way you did it? I want your thought process going into that comment.

I don't understand why you would immediately assume ConSpiracy had some ulterior motives, as asking questions in early game can only help move the game forward.

Well, my questioning ConSpiracy's motives could only help move the game forward, so what's the problem?

I think Snake's question here was valid, but no answer.

Ooh, quick to judge, are we? I'm voting you because you've contradicted yourself. See above. You seem desperate to stop RVS and get a wagon started.

I don't think this was evident when you placed the vote.

When I voted ConSpiracy, I made sure to let everyone know it was a serious vote. I was setting myself up as bait, and you bit.

I threw out that bit about xtoxm because I wanted to see who would either attack him, or come to his aid. Snake did the latter. Same basic principle with the vote on you.

Two explanatory posts for the xtoxm comment, I want these to be easy to find so I'm including them here. I find it odd that you say you wanted to see who would attack or defend him when you said you didn't find his behavior scummy in the first place. Also, the vote on Con was the same thing? That seemed different. It was an actual attack, wasn't it?

Krazy, leave Ythan alone. Now. Keep your personal disputes out of this thread. I'm not having my game contaminated with your marital disputes. As of yet, I see no reason for a policy lynch. I do not see Ythan as lurking or otherwise not participating, at least not as much as some of the players here. You two better get along or replace out.

Don't mischaracterize this as going both ways. Krazy is the one who started shit in this thread and the one who kept it going.

[Ythan]

I wanted you to take positions, you're taking positions, crisis averted.

I would say that my policy lynch vote on you should make sense by now without having to address the other game, but I know from experience that people can only really understand this by actually talking to you (which truly ironically, my policy lynch vote has apparently given everyone an excuse to not talk to you yet).

If you keep complaining about this nonsense I'm going to keep telling you to cry about it, k?

[Ythan]

Okay, you defined it that way. That changes my comment how?

Different words mean different things. Shocking.

No, Ythan, you are COMPLETELY tunneling. I WAS only partly tunneling. Until you STOP tunneling you will continue to be COMPLETELY tunneling.

Until you can make an intelligent explanation of how I'm tunneling or you're not I'm just going to post this face whenever you make a bare assertion to that effect, k?

Tunnel harder and faster Ythan, please. You might not make it to China in time for tea, otherwise.

I have explained why I continued to focus on you after the initial (mostly) random vote, and it was certainly partly because I know you have time to get into quote wars like this with me but refuse to even say the name of another player in the game unless they are responding to me.

Lol no.

I voted for you before you posted, this isn't the same as focusing on you before you posted.

Except you've been doing nothing but that since your first post. You going to say that's not the truth?

Glad to see you're not willing to give me the benefit of the doubt. I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that you would address other players other than me, and you STILL haven't done this, claiming that I'm trying to occupy too much of your time, when you refuse to address any other player than me. Honestly there is no evidence right now that you have read a single post in this game that did not have my name as a part of it. And then you mount your entire case against me on the basis that I am tunneling on you, saying I'm the only player that you have found interesting (but you apparently can't be bothered to read Umbrage's posts, only my commentary on them).

I'm going to take this the direction the other game went and just cut through all this nonsense to call you a dumbass if you don't get on track and stop tunneling, Krazy.

[Krazy]

lolumad?

[Ythan]

lolumad?

You are contributing nothing to this game. If you play like trash I'm going to call you trash.

[Ythan]

13 - From iamusername. Something about this vote bugs me. RVS of someone with a vote already on them seems strange.

...

16 - This is obviously trying to get a bandwagon going on the most viable person. It's a null tell for me on page one, but at least it gets people talking.

These two comments, in one post, seem to contradict each other. Additionally this is a long ass post with a poor way of referring to the posts in question. Please use quotes, and if you could do so to clarify the points you're still holding onto at this point in the game I would like that.

[Ythan]

So Krazy's case is that I talked to him while I was working my way alphabetical. See how I can sum it up in one sentence instead of making a ton of bullshit posts.

[Ythan]

I'm unconvinced that Krazy is anything more than tunneling awfultown just like the last game we played. I'm going to give him a short while to calm down and address points made against him, particularly those disputing his empty case, because I've seen him play exactly like this as town very recently.

I am most likely to vote Umbrage right now, as he has the most of my outstanding questions, but those were made since his last post so I'm going to abstain for the moment.

[Krazy]

My vote has been off you since the beginning of this page. Why do you think I have any interest in currently pursuing a case on you? Wait, that's a rhetorical question: I don't. Every point you make in 110 is irrelevant after 108. You were lurking, then you were tunneling, and then you started participating, which is exactly what I asked of you.

inb4OMGURSTILLTUNNELING: Believe it or not, if 3+ people are going to go through the weekend with one post, then I'm going to defer judgment on the wagons forming on the active players until I have some sense of the full party.

[Ythan]

It's a shame that you're astute enough to recognize that your joke of a (former) case is moot but not quite bright enough to see that you're still really dim when it comes to your perception of my play this game. It's almost as if you don't take in anything that I say. But I already overtly insulted you once tonight and that will be enough for now.

[ConSpiracy]

Care to explain the right thing now?

I voted you to get reactions, and I got a nice big fat one from Snake Eyes.

If you voted for me to get reactions, why didn't you initially get that I did the same with my vote for you? And why did you unvote that easily when I told the reason for my vote? It just doesn't really add up.

@ Ythan

Though I don't really like the RVS myself, don't you think there has to be one? I have played one game without a RVS and it started very lurky. The RVS starts discussion.

13 - From iamusername. Something about this vote bugs me. RVS of someone with a vote already on them seems strange.

...

16 - This is obviously trying to get a bandwagon going on the most viable person. It's a null tell for me on page one, but at least it gets people talking.

These two comments, in one post, seem to contradict each other. Additionally this is a long ass post with a poor way of referring to the posts in question. Please use quotes, and if you could do so to clarify the points you're still holding onto at this point in the game I would like that.

This is very strange. Care to explain Vordark?

[Vordark]

36 - From Abelcain. I like most of this post. I don't like the reasoning of "saying something outrageous and making it sound serious" in order to "get a reaction". That seems like an easy way to backpedal on something you've been called on.

You do realize you're thinking that I'm backpedaling about my attack on someone's

signature

right? I admit, I was hoping to see Krazy get nervous because his signature happened to contain the name of someone in this game completely by accident and it looked like I was taking it seriously. But at least in my next post I admitted that my comment was just a ploy and not in any way serious, unlike someone who assured us that he was really serious and told us much later that he was setting himself up as bait.

I was commenting on the general reasoning. The basic idea of doing something most would consider scummy as some sort of ploy or gambit is as likely to confuse and distract the town as it is to gain any real insight. If such a tactic is accepted by the town as legit, then it opens the door for anyone to say "Oh, that was just a gambit" when called on something scummy. True, your specific case, in isolation, is almost certainly harmless, but any time that reasoning is employed, I think it should be attacked.

I noted that I'm neutral toward you right now because you chose to employ that reasoning. The rest of your posts all seem good to me.

13 - From iamusername. Something about this vote bugs me. RVS of someone with a vote already on them seems strange.

16 - This is obviously trying to get a bandwagon going on the most viable person. It's a null tell for me on page one, but at least it gets people talking.

These two comments, in one post, seem to contradict each other. Additionally this is a long ass post with a poor way of referring to the posts in question. Please use quotes, and if you could do so to clarify the points you're still holding onto at this point in the game I would like that.

This is very strange. Care to explain Vordark?

There is nothing strange here. iamusername represented his vote as an RVS. His vote landed on someone who already had a vote on them. It seems odd that someone would chose to RVS someone with an existing vote. CS did not attempt to represent his vote as an RVS vote at all, instead he asked Umbrage his thoughts on people in the same text, making it clear that he meant to get a bandwagon going.

@Ythan: I have seen this manner of playing thread catch-up used in many games in the archive. If ever the exact text of the post I'm referring to is important (such as when I am making a direct reply), I will use quotes.

[DarthYoshi]

@Krazy: Right now, your vote just looks like an attempt to make it look like you weren’t tunneling on Ythan. Which you were. I completely agree that the town should be pressing lurkers to participate, but you still seem to really only care about one lurker.

Krazy:

He completely ignored my query about Ythan, which makes him tunneling already if nothing else

Pot, kettle, black, yada yada yada. Also, I’m basically ignoring posts #84-117, because I don’t care remotely enough about your’s and Ythan’s schoolyard screaming match to read those walls.

Snake Eyes:

Votes and bandwagons give the discussion context. You'd never get anywhere without votes. Do you not agree?

With votes, sure. There’s a reason RVS exists. But there is also a reason why it is called RVS and not RBS.

Snake Eyes:

Just a slight townie vibe, from his initial questioning of Umbrage.

What specifically about his questioning of Umbrage gave you a townie vibe?

Vordark:

Vordark: Why wouldn't we want to move out of RVS and into meaningful discussion?

Hadn’t heard from a number of players at that point, but I think this is a more fast-paced game than I was either feeling or anticipating, so at this point, I don’t really care. Also—what exactly are you seeing as a chainsaw? You’re saying my behavior is ‘odd’ and not really saying anything as to why.

Umbrage’s #66: o.O #69, too, now that I think of it. Chill the f**k out, man. That you are reacting the way you are makes me think your votes really were OMGUS, and it doesn’t make you look good.

@Ythan: At what point can we expect your thoughts on individual players (aside from Krazy)?

Vordark:

The basic idea of doing something most would consider scummy as some sort of ploy or gambit is as likely to confuse and distract the town as it is to gain any real insight. If such a tactic is accepted by the town as legit, then it opens the door for anyone to say "Oh, that was just a gambit" when called on something scummy. True, your specific case, in isolation, is almost certainly harmless, but any time that reasoning is employed, I think it should be attacked.

You do realize there has already been a fair amount of people explaining away potentially odd actions and votes with, "Oh, it was a ploy to get a reaction?"

@Town as a whole--though I was uneasy with CS’s vote on Umbrage, he hasn’t done anything after that to really set off my scumdar, so my read on him is mostly neutral. My vote is better served elsewhere atm.

Unvote. Vote: Krazy.

Your play so far has been hellaciously anti-town, regardless of your alignment.

[Vordark]

Vordark:

The basic idea of doing something most would consider scummy as some sort of ploy or gambit is as likely to confuse and distract the town as it is to gain any real insight. If such a tactic is accepted by the town as legit, then it opens the door for anyone to say "Oh, that was just a gambit" when called on something scummy. True, your specific case, in isolation, is almost certainly harmless, but any time that reasoning is employed, I think it should be attacked.

You do realize there has already been a fair amount of people explaining away potentially odd actions and votes with, "Oh, it was a ploy to get a reaction?"

Yes. In fact, I believe I have already said just that.

Vordark:

Vordark: Why wouldn't we want to move out of RVS and into meaningful discussion?

Hadn’t heard from a number of players at that point, but I think this is a more fast-paced game than I was either feeling or anticipating, so at this point, I don’t really care. Also—what exactly are you seeing as a chainsaw? You’re saying my behavior is ‘odd’ and not really saying anything as to why.

I have seen nothing as definitively chainsaw. The actual statement I made is as follows:

47 - DarthYoshi post. Why wouldn't we want to move out of RVS and into meaningful discussion? Not seeing a lot of what I'd call "defense" from Snake Eyes. That smells a bit like a chainsaw to me, but eh. I agree with the rest.

You jumped on Snake Eyes when he wrote what you deemed a "defense" of ConSpiracy. That "smells a bit like a chainsaw to me, but eh". Attacking someone who supports another player, purely on the basis that they are supporting them, seems fishy. The closest example in my mind to that type of behavior is the chainsaw defense.

[Umbrage]

OK, now I'm pissed off.

It's nice that one of Snake's later posts gave you a way to avoid my question, but that still doesn't explain what you thought CS had to gain that Snake didn't when you originally posted that.

It's obvious from his actions Snake wasn't interested in reactions. If he was, he would've pointed out the bad reactions, and attacked other people.

CS's serious votes at that point consisted of the obligatory "Xth vote on anyone in RVS is scummy" vote and your seemingly-OMGUS vote. CS's vote on you was a deliberate third vote. Which one seems like it's more serious?

Fine, it's obvious I can't change your mind on this, but you have to see where I'm coming from. CS' vote on me was not accompanied by any reasoning, or even saying that I'm scum. There is NOTHING there that suggests it's a serious vote. Whereas my case on CS was a true attack.

Nobody else thought there was anything up with the question either. The post was a bandwagon, not a setup. He got the reactions and wagon solely with his vote; the question had nothing to do with it. You're the one searching for a reason to say someone's trying to make you look scummy with an impossible question.

Yes, I realize that NOW, after CS has said the exact same thing. And what is with this whole 'nobody else thought it was scummy' crap? I don't give a shit what the majority thinks, if something strikes me as scummy, I point it out. Only scum try to avoid posting opinions that aren't popular.

Funny that you happened to pull a gambit that makes every single one of your posts look like OMGUS. Especially since your "reasoning" seems to be... well, you like falsely quoting people, right?

YES THAT WAS MY FUCKING MASTER PLAN I NEEDED AN EXCUSE TO OMGUS PEOPLE SO I CREATED THIS GAMBIT BECAUSE WE ALL KNOW HOW WELL OMGUS WORKS AND IT IS SUCH A GOOD THING TO DO AS SCUM.

You obviously do not know what you are talking about. OMGUS is when you vote someone who is voting you SOLELY because they are voting you. You do not PLAN to OMGUS. OMGUS is bad as town AND as scum. Why would I not only WANT to OMGUS, but actually create a plan to provide an excuse to do it?

That being said, you've "proven" absolutely nothing. All you've gotten Snake to say is that he found you more scummy than ConSpiracy - specifically, that he had no scumreads on CS while you were acting pretty scummy. It's also nice to say that your "serious vote" on CS wasn't really serious and you just said it to lay bait for a trap, but that would mean you saying that your vote was serious was also a lie. "Lynch All Liars" is a popular policy for a reason.

Shut up right now, because you clearly haven't BEEN PAYING ATTENTION. Snake ADMITTED that his vote on me was because he found me SCUMMY, which means he was LYING when he said his vote was just to BANDWAGON to get us out of RVS. You want to lynch a LIAR? Lynch him.

And I'm so sorry for pulling that gambit that got us out of RVS and led us to catch LYING SCUM.

If you voted for me to get reactions, why didn't you initially get that I did the same with my vote for you? And why did you unvote that easily when I told the reason for my vote? It just doesn't really add up.

I unvoted because I believed you. I had no reason to disbelieve you. I suppose I should've picked up on your attempt to get reactions, but somehow I didn't think of that.

ONE LAST NOTE: I'm leaning toward Krazy and Ythan being scum together, and doing this shit to try and distract the town from any actual real scumhunting. I haven't read all of their back and forth, and I don't plan on doing so. They are making this thread almost impossible to read. I will say again: KEEP YOUR PERSONAL SHIT OUT OF THIS GOD-DAMNED THREAD!

[TheBigLebowski]

So are you going to ever address any player other than me or is this just going to be a quote war?

I would like us all to take a moment and address how ironic this post is.

[Umbrage]

So are you going to ever address any player other than me or is this just going to be a quote war?

I would like us all to take a moment and address how ironic this post is.

VOTE: TheBigLebowski

You're obviously not lurking, so what the hell are you doing?