Mini 1166: Town Hall Mafia (GAME OVER)

[ThAdmiral]

Yeah, but this is the only game he's in, so that doesn't really mean anything...

[C-Worl]

True.

[sAbLLimINal]

If I was scummy in wanting to hammer but being afraid to hammer, I'd be hammering town, would I not? As such, I would be encouraging this wagon, rather than discouraging it.

I don't get what you're saying here. I voted for you because you said that you won't be hammering right now, which indicates that you actually wanted to hammer.

I actually agree with Fishy on this one; as things stand, there's no reason that kuz should have claimed. He was at L-1, but no one has indicated a willingness to drop the hammer vote, as far as I remember. I mean, I'd prefer it if someone did, because he's scum, but until that happens, he shouldn't claim.

So you're saying that it's better to kill him instead of waiting for him to claim? That doesn't really help us much at all.

[Mitsuru Kirijo]

I said I won't be hammering right now because I don't support this lynch, for reasons I've already explained. It really is as simple as that.

iamausername, I still had my vote on you because of RVS. My bad.

Unvote.

[Beefster]

Kuz has been prodded

[Fishythefish]

Is disappearing really a scumtell? I'm not convinced that scum under pressure are more likely to stop posting than town under pressure.

@MK: quite a lot has happened - who do you think is scum?

Somehow I missed this response to me:

I tend to think of buddying as somewhat more sophisticated than what you are implying. To me buddying is stuff like agreeing with someone's reads, defending them against attacks, copying their cases,

as well as

calling them town.

1) OK. The point I was criticising (from 86, that town reads shouldn't be questioned) is still absurd to the point where I doubt you could believe it.
2) On the other point, you seem to be saying both of the following:
- The main point of wagons at this stage is pressure, and you put kuz at L-1 to put him under pressure.
- It's scummy that kuz hasn't claimed at L-1.
Did you think kuz would claim when you put him at L-1? Did you want him to?

[C-Worl]

^ My own personal answer to the last question (even though it wasn't asked of me) is yes, I wanted kuz to claim. Everyone should claim at L1.

[ThAdmiral]

Is disappearing really a scumtell? I'm not convinced that scum under pressure are more likely to stop posting than town under pressure.

I think it is far more likely to point to scum than town.

Somehow I missed this response to me:

I tend to think of buddying as somewhat more sophisticated than what you are implying. To me buddying is stuff like agreeing with someone's reads, defending them against attacks, copying their cases,

as well as

calling them town.

1) OK. The point I was criticising (from 86, that town reads shouldn't be questioned) is still absurd to the point where I doubt you could believe it.
2) On the other point, you seem to be saying both of the following:
- The main point of wagons at this stage is pressure, and you put kuz at L-1 to put him under pressure.
- It's scummy that kuz hasn't claimed at L-1.
Did you think kuz would claim when you put him at L-1? Did you want him to?

1) We'll have to agree to disagree.
2) To be honest I wasn't thinking of forcing a claim when I put him to -1; it was mainly to put pressure on and to see how he would respond. However given that he was at -1 for a while and his response (which was basically just whining) made him look even worse I do believe he should have claimed.

[Fishythefish]

Seems to me there's a pretty blatant contradiction between you saying he's scummy for not claiming at L-1, and you saying you weren't thinking about claims when putting him there. If you think that being at L-1 is a good reason for claiming, you don't put someone there without wanting them to claim.

[Rhinox]

He seems upset that I have identified a townie so soon.

This is the best point in the game so far.

vote: kuz

that's -1

This is a horrible reason to put kuz at L-1. Even if that is the best point in the game, its not a L-1 worthy point. Especially because I see the same reasoning regarding iam/cworl as he does. He may have picked the wrong choice of words to express the point, but its sound logic.

I think we will have to agree to disagree here.

Furthermore in a 9 player game people are going to be getting to -1 fairly quickly. To me this is a good thing as the main point of wagons are pressure, and being at -1 is as much pressure as a person can be under. This will help with reads as people's behavior is most telling when they are under pressure.

Talking about behavior...
Note that since kuz has been at -1:
- he hasn't claimed, even though he has posted and therefore has had a chance to do so.
- other than the one post he has basically stopped posting. This is particularly odd as during the first few days of this game he was involved in a flurry of posts.

The overdefensiveness is not the main point, it's the fact that he seems really upset that someone has a town-read on someone else.

Question: what does scum have to gain by claiming to have a town-read on someone? Oppose that to: what does a scum have to gain in a situation where no one has town-reads on anyone else?

c'mon, one look at your join date tells me you should know better than this.

You're telling me in your 4-5 years on site, you've

never

seen scum call out town reads or agree with town reads?

That scum

always

try to make sure nobody has town reads on anybody and are likely to get visually upset if someone expresses a solid town read? I don't buy it.

Bolding mine.

That's not the point though. Town-reads just shouldn't really be questioned, even if they are by scum. If scum want to claim a town-read on town, fine by me. That's just one less town they will be able to lynch come end of day. In fact if scum want to claim a town-read on

scum

, great! Just makes it that much easier to catch their buddy when they die.

Well let me say it another way. I questioned iam's town read on cworl because it seemed like a questionable reason to call cworl town. Scum don't need to find legit town reads, because they know town from scum (not 3rd parties or other scum but you know what I mean). Calling another player town for a bad reason looks like fake scumhunting (er, townhunting? POE scumhunting?) in an attempt to look like a townie.

I disagree that town reads shouldn't be questioned if the reason for the town read is bad. Townies shouldn't be riding other players off as town so easily for weak reasons. Bad town reads should be questioned to the same extent as bad scum reads.

Given your examples:
scum claims bad town-read on town: I see town and scum reverse town reads all the time. They're certainly not locked out of not voting the townie at the end of the day, and it isn't a scum tell to do so because townies do it all the time too.

scum claims bad town-read on scum: "great! Just makes it that much easier to catch their buddy when they die." - given this is your thought, wouldn't it be plausible that clever scum claim town reads on townies to set up false scum partner links in the event the scum dies? Don't say it never happens because I once got lynched as a townie due to a similar false connection to a dead scum.

also:

town claims bad town-read on scum: scum potentially gets a free ride if the town doesn't question the bad town read.

to be thorough...

town claims bad town-read on town: a bad read is a bad read even if it happens to be correct. It deserves to be questioned just like a bad scum read even if it happens to be correct.

I don't have any problem with putting someone at L-1. I have a problem with someone placed at L-1 (or any vote really) for a bad reason. So back to your original vote, what makes kuz's objection to the town-read vote worthy, but my objection not?

Last point - automatically claiming at L-1 isn't a mandatory procedure. Kuz wasn't stalling, it was clear he wasn't - well, shouldn't - be getting lynched yet, no one was asking him to claim, and no one was threatening to hammer. If you wanted kuz to claim, why didn't you ask him to?

C-W:
Sorry, not ready to compromise, not while

Rhinox is being this slimy. (Most recently: voting for ThA because ThA *agreed* with the case Rhinox was making.)

Though while we're waiting, if you assume kuz to be guilty, who do you think his partner might be?

uh... you wanna try this again? ThAd agreed with iamausername. I disagreed with iama and unvoted kuz. Or... is there something I'm missing?

First sentence makes no sense. If it's the best point in the game, then of course it's an L-1 worthy point.

Well yeah ok I see what you're saying but the "Even if" comment I made was suppose to imply that I didn't think it was a good point. But I guess, even if L-1 is ok, neither you or ThAd questioned kuz - something like "why are you upset IAUA thinks Cworl is town?" ya know, do some scum hunting? And then ThAd already insinuated that kuz is scummy because he didn't claim at L-1, but notice ThAd never asked him to. It seems like ThAd isn't trying to pressure kuz trying to get a read on him, but more like he's just trying to convince the rest of us to suspect/vote kuz.

Last sentence is also wrong. It's not sound logic. People discredit these kind of 'townslips' all the time, on the basis that "scum could fake it", but have you ever actually seen any scum player do that? I know I haven't.

eh.. I don't know if I could find you a specific example, but it sounds like something I would try to do, maybe even accidentally - such as, I'd be thinking about trying to confuse the town about the total number of scum or something. Yeah, I'd say its reasonable to assume its something scum would think of doing intentionally or unintentionally.

But I'm not saying its always null (or if I did, thats not what I meant). If its a new player and you have to explain to him why he has to be town and he still doesn't get it, then yeah its probably a town tell. The issue I took was that c-worl figured it out

on his own

. Makes me think its plausible he could be clever enough to plan that sort of a town slip. Doesn't make it a scum tell, just less of a town tell and more towards null. Definitely not "confirmed town".

But like I said already, I understand what you're saying, I just disagree. I don't like that ThAd just sheeped you among the other things I've mentioned.

Second point is entirely accurate, and telling, though.

Yeah. Newbscum has disappeared. No surprises here.

right, because newbtown

never

get frustrated and disappear either

Seems to me there's a pretty blatant contradiction between you saying he's scummy for not claiming at L-1, and you saying you weren't thinking about claims when putting him there. If you think that being at L-1 is a good reason for claiming, you don't put someone there without wanting them to claim.

bingo.

[sAbLLimINal]

I'm agreeing with Rhino and Fishy.

VOTE: ThAdmiral

Talking about behavior...
Note that since kuz has been at -1:
- he hasn't claimed, even though he has posted and therefore has had a chance to do so.
- other than the one post he has basically stopped posting. This is particularly odd as during the first few days of this game he was involved in a flurry of posts.

To be honest I wasn't thinking of forcing a claim when I put him to -1; it was mainly to put pressure on and to see how he would respond. However given that he was at -1 for a while and his response (which was basically just whining) made him look even worse I do believe he should have claimed.

Pretty much what Fishy is saying, but it is a contradiction. In the first quote, ThAdmiral makes a note about kuz not claiming being at L-1, but then says that he wasn't really attending kuz to claim and that it was just to be for pressure.

@ThAdmiral: What kind of response were you looking for if you weren't intending on kuz claiming?

[EmpTyger]

[I'm going to be a little busier irl next week, but do not expect to need to be replaced.]


I think a lot of people- on both sides of the argument- are missing the point.
The issue is not what the correct reaction in an abstract lynch-1 situation.
The issue is how *kuz* reacted in *this game*.

Don't just narrowly look at the single reaction. Compare that to how kuz has acted elsewhere in the game. Kuz had absolutely no problem responding to C-Worl's initial accusation. He's talking about LAL and chainsawing. He is not a newbie. Let me repeat that:

Kuz is not a newbie. Stop shielding him with that excuse.

(The only way I'll believe he's a newbie is if he's mafia, and his partner overstuffed his ears with too much advice.)

I'm very tempted to give up on Rhinox and give kuz a 24 hour post-or-be-voted ultimatum. Let's see how I feel tomorrow.


Rhinox:
You said that kuz was suspicious and voted him.
Other players said that kuz was suspicious and voted him.
You said that the kuz-voters were suspicious, because of how they were voting kuz.

I don't think I've ever seen an innocent player get upset that their suspect is being voted.


sAb:
In the future, could you make it clearer who is being referring to? Posts like [102] are hard to follow.

[Mitsuru Kirijo]

Honestly I'm thinking ThAdmiral at the minute, because he basically seems really shifty about his opinions and his tone, particularly when it comes to claims and Kuz, are immediately off to me. He seems a little too determined to find Kuz scum. Post 66 is just an agreement and a vote, with no real substantial effort to bring his own opinions to the table.

And as for the end of post 86, I don't know what to think of it. Why shouldn't town reads be questioned? Isn't this a game of opinions and subjection? If we don't act on our suspicions, then are we supposed to sit and quietly agree with reads we believe to be wrong? I have to say, Does that mean that because the majority of people believe that X is town, that they are town? Not until their alignment is proven by a lynch. If I think a town read is wrong, then I would come out and say it. Not to mention I've seen it in other games. Calling out reads isn't exclusively a noob town tactic, even though Kuz's tone was a clustercrap of idiocy. This is a game of opinions, is it not?

Anyway, I won't place my vote till I see his reaction to my post and the posts of others.

[Fishythefish]

I think a lot of people- on both sides of the argument- are missing the point.
The issue is not what the correct reaction in an abstract lynch-1 situation.
The issue is how *kuz* reacted in *this game*.

Actually, for what I'm saying here kuz's reaction isn't relevant. I'm saying that I can't see town ThAd believing what he says about L-1 and claiming, but not thinking about claims before putting someone at L-1.

Looking at kuz's reaction here, he posted to argue a point (on which he was wrong), called his wagon "so freaking scummy", and then hasn't posted again. Can someone explain how any of that's a scumtell? Flaking is something that happens, and it happens more when people are under pressure. I don't see that that's any more true for scum than town.

[iamausername]

I actually agree with Fishy on this one; as things stand, there's no reason that kuz should have claimed. He was at L-1, but no one has indicated a willingness to drop the hammer vote, as far as I remember. I mean, I'd prefer it if someone did, because he's scum, but until that happens, he shouldn't claim.

So you're saying that it's better to kill him instead of waiting for him to claim? That doesn't really help us much at all.

No, I'm not saying that at all.

- He should not claim until he is at L-1 AND someone who is not already voting him indicates a willingness to do so.
- This has not happened yet.
- I would like this to happen, because I think he is scum.

That's what I was saying.

The issue I took was that c-worl figured it out

on his own

. Makes me think its plausible he could be clever enough to plan that sort of a town slip.

This is plainly ridiculous. If he was deliberately playing dumb, why on earth would he tell us that he'd figured out what I was getting at?

You're saying that C-Worl, being a devious scummy type, deliberately pretended to think there were more scum than he knew that there actually are, in order to make people think he was town due to ignorance. Then, when his plan succeeds, and someone actually does declare him town due to his ignorance, he first pretends not to know what they are talking about, and asks them to explain, but then explains it himself, because what, he got bored of waiting?

Let me ask you a simple, direct question; do you think C-Worl is scum?

Looking at kuz's reaction here, he posted to argue a point (on which he was wrong), called his wagon "so freaking scummy", and then hasn't posted again. Can someone explain how any of that's a scumtell?

Well, calling his entire wagon "so freaking scummy" instead of trying to identify the particular individuals on the wagon who are scum strikes me as pretty scummy.

For the people voting ThAdmiral, I want to note that I was recently in a game with him where he was town, and he hammered two players within the first eight pages of the game without waiting or even asking for a claim, and I would like to know if this information has any effect on your reads here.

[Fishythefish]

Looking at kuz's reaction here, he posted to argue a point (on which he was wrong), called his wagon "so freaking scummy", and then hasn't posted again. Can someone explain how any of that's a scumtell?

Well, calling his entire wagon "so freaking scummy" instead of trying to identify the particular individuals on the wagon who are scum strikes me as pretty scummy.

For the people voting ThAdmiral, I want to note that I was recently in a game with him where he was town, and he hammered two players within the first eight pages of the game without waiting or even asking for a claim, and I would like to know if this information has any effect on your reads here.

Well, he only called his whole wagon scummy after arguing with every individual player on it. He had an issue for every reason that people were voting him; from there, calling your wagon scummy is on a tiny OMGUS step away.

That information definitely sounds relevant; someone who hammers early without waiting is just the kind of person who would put someone to L-1 without thinking about the consequences (ie. reckless and antitown). Link please?

I've played with ThAd before, and my vague impression isn't recklessness of this sort. I must check that meta out some time.

[iamausername]

here

[ThAdmiral]

Seems to me there's a pretty blatant contradiction between you saying he's scummy for not claiming at L-1, and you saying you weren't thinking about claims when putting him there. If you think that being at L-1 is a good reason for claiming, you don't put someone there without wanting them to claim.

Well I have to admit sometimes I don't think all that far ahead, but to say that I have been acting in a "blatantly contradictory" way is a bit over the top.
I further address this point down at the bottom of this post.

Well let me say it another way. I questioned iam's town read on cworl because it seemed like a questionable reason to call cworl town. Scum don't need to find legit town reads, because they know town from scum (not 3rd parties or other scum but you know what I mean). Calling another player town for a bad reason looks like fake scumhunting (er, townhunting? POE scumhunting?) in an attempt to look like a townie.

You're probably right that this does happen, but I'm not sure how much scum do this. Do you think Iam was doing it in this case?

I disagree that town reads shouldn't be questioned if the reason for the town read is bad. Townies shouldn't be riding other players off as town so easily for weak reasons. Bad town reads should be questioned to the same extent as bad scum reads.

Ok, well obviously if a town read is based on something terribad it should be questioned, but I think Iam's read was based on something not-insignificant.

Given your examples:
scum claims bad town-read on town: I see town and scum reverse town reads all the time. They're certainly not locked out of not voting the townie at the end of the day, and it isn't a scum tell to do so because townies do it all the time too.

But if you're trying to say it doesn't make them look worse/more suspicious

at all

you are wrong. Sure they can make up a reason for their behaviour flip, and sometimes it might even be a good one, but any given scum would rather not have to go back on one of their reads if given the choice.

scum claims bad town-read on scum: "great! Just makes it that much easier to catch their buddy when they die." - given this is your thought, wouldn't it be plausible that clever scum claim town reads on townies to set up false scum partner links in the event the scum dies? Don't say it never happens because I once got lynched as a townie due to a similar false connection to a dead scum.

Sure this happens. But occams razor. That is all.

town claims bad town-read on scum: scum potentially gets a free ride if the town doesn't question the bad town read.

Of all four scenarios this is the only one that truly is bad for town, but the likelihood of a scum making a town-tell is much less than the likelihood of an actual town making a town-tell so I don't think this is as much of a danger as you think it is.

to be thorough...

town claims bad town-read on town: a bad read is a bad read even if it happens to be correct. It deserves to be questioned just like a bad scum read even if it happens to be correct.

Yeah, but you can't argue with the fact that in this situation the town cause is helped, not hindered, by the read.

In summary: 3 out of 4 ain't bad, especially when the 1 that is bad for town is also very rare.

I don't have any problem with putting someone at L-1. I have a problem with someone placed at L-1 (or any vote really) for a bad reason. So back to your original vote, what makes kuz's objection to the town-read vote worthy, but my objection not?

I don't remember your objection sticking out from before. I went back and had a look and the tone and content of your objection compared to kuz's is totally different. You were asking a question to iama, kuz was basically getting mad about it.

Last point - automatically claiming at L-1 isn't a mandatory procedure. Kuz wasn't stalling, it was clear he wasn't - well, shouldn't - be getting lynched yet, no one was asking him to claim, and no one was threatening to hammer. If you wanted kuz to claim, why didn't you ask him to?

Fishy said he thought kuz was "scummy" and emp said "I'm ready to shift my vote back to you", so I'm not sure where you are getting the "no one was threatening to hammer" from.
Perhaps I should have asked kuz to claim, but I didn't.

[ThAdmiral]

It seems like ThAd isn't trying to pressure kuz trying to get a read on him, but more like he's just trying to convince the rest of us to suspect/vote kuz.

Can't I be doing both?
I thought the whole point is to try to convince others to vote who you think is scum?

Second point is entirely accurate, and telling, though.

Yeah. Newbscum has disappeared. No surprises here.

right, because newbtown

never

get frustrated and disappear either

I would say it's a better indication that they are scum than that they are town.

@ThAdmiral: What kind of response were you looking for if you weren't intending on kuz claiming?

When I pressure someone I'm not looking for a particular thing for them to say, although in general I like people to explain themselves and why they were saying what they were saying. Often I look more at how they say it than what they say - I try to gauge if they are being open and honest; I try to gauge their motivations etc.

I think a lot of people- on both sides of the argument- are missing the point.
The issue is not what the correct reaction in an abstract lynch-1 situation.
The issue is how *kuz* reacted in *this game*.

Bing-fucking-go!

[ThAdmiral]

For the people voting ThAdmiral, I want to note that I was recently in a game with him where he was town, and he hammered two players within the first eight pages of the game without waiting or even asking for a claim, and I would like to know if this information has any effect on your reads here.

Btw they were both scum as well.

That game was awesome.

[Rhinox]

Rhinox is being this slimy. (Most recently: voting for ThA because ThA *agreed* with the case Rhinox was making.

does not equal

Rhinox:
You said that kuz was suspicious and voted him.
Other players said that kuz was suspicious and voted him.
You said that the kuz-voters were suspicious, because of how they were voting kuz.

I don't think I've ever seen an innocent player get upset that their suspect is being voted.

Moving the goalposts FTW I guess
Also, I only was suspicious of ThAd for the way he voted kuz, not "the kuz-voter

s

".
You're either deliberately misrepping me, or need to read my posts without the confirmation bias you somehow developed on me for whatever reason. What was it, because I joined the thread late?

Back to the first quote, show me where ThAd agreed with this:

kuz asking about gambits and LAL seems like it could be newbscum trying to figure out how much he can get away with. And post #29 is entirely overdefensive.

hint, this is why ThAd voted kuz:

He seems upset that I have identified a townie so soon.

This is the best point in the game so far.

vote: kuz

that's -1

@ kuz: why would you assume that we would know your playstyle, and then get all whiny when it turns out we don't?

This reason I disagreed with. And this is why I unvoted kuz, in case you were wondering:

@Rhinox: Overdefensive? It's called I don't let anyone try to take advantage of me. I am known throughout smashboards for doing town gambits. It's just what I like to do because it makes the game more enjoyable/exciting for me. Since this is my first game on the site, I wanted to hear the site-specific view of it. Why you both are assuming malicious intent behind the question is beyond me. Also, Iama has a town read on Cworl and his phrasing, not me.

@Rhinox: Or I could have just asked about it in thread, which was much easier.

His responses to me seemed genuine. Also, he saw the same thing I saw regarding iama's town tell on cworl.
Just because kuz was the first player I voted does not mean:
A) He would always be my top suspect.
B) He would be my only suspect.
C) That I should be ok with anybody voting him for any reason.

----------------------------------------------------------

I think a lot of people- on both sides of the argument- are missing the point.
The issue is not what the correct reaction in an abstract lynch-1 situation.
The issue is how *kuz* reacted in *this game*.

Don't just narrowly look at the single reaction. Compare that to how kuz has acted elsewhere in the game. Kuz had absolutely no problem responding to C-Worl's initial accusation. He's talking about LAL and chainsawing. He is not a newbie. Let me repeat that: Kuz is not a newbie. Stop shielding him with that excuse. (The only way I'll believe he's a newbie is if he's mafia, and his partner overstuffed his ears with too much advice.)

I don't think I recall seeing anyone giving kuz a newbie pass. Or at least, thats not what I'm doing if thats what you're insinuating.

I think a lot of people- on both sides of the argument- are missing the point.
The issue is not what the correct reaction in an abstract lynch-1 situation.
The issue is how *kuz* reacted in *this game*.

Bing-fucking-go!

What about kuz's reaction to being at L-1 makes him scum?

----------------------------------------------------------

This is plainly ridiculous. If he was deliberately playing dumb, why on earth would he tell us that he'd figured out what I was getting at?

You're saying that C-Worl, being a devious scummy type, deliberately pretended to think there were more scum than he knew that there actually are, in order to make people think he was town due to ignorance. Then, when his plan succeeds, and someone actually does declare him town due to his ignorance, he first pretends not to know what they are talking about, and asks them to explain, but then explains it himself, because what, he got bored of waiting?

Let me ask you a simple, direct question; do you think C-Worl is scum?

Its all in my posts, man... quote the whole thing next time.

But I'm not saying its always null (or if I did, thats not what I meant). If its a new player and you have to explain to him why he has to be town and he still doesn't get it, then yeah its probably a town tell. The issue I took was that c-worl figured it out on his own. Makes me think its plausible he could be clever enough to plan that sort of a town slip.

Doesn't make it a scum tell, just less of a town tell and more towards null. Definitely not "confirmed town".

Also:

I agree that C-worl seems town but due to his exchange with kuz.

I was originally thinking it could be accidental rather than deliberate as scum or town, but I guess thinking about it a little more (I was previously thinking on the basis of not realizing this was a 9p game and failing to realize there would only be 2 scum), that were cworl scum he would have (probably) talked with his scum partner pre-game, and forgetting you only talked to 1 scum partner is a bit unrealistic.

What are we arguing about anyways? You made a point, I disagreed with it but saw your point of view. I don't think you're scummy and I don't think cworl is scummy. If you're trying to get me to believe cworl is confirmed town, its not going to happen at this stage of the game. Doesn't mean I'm arguing to lynch him.

----------------------------

You're probably right that this does happen, but I'm not sure how much scum do this. Do you think Iam was doing it in this case?

No, after questioning IAUA, I don't think he was doing that. But I wouldn't have been able to determine that without questioning him.

But if you're trying to say it doesn't make them look worse/more suspicious at all you are wrong. Sure they can make up a reason for their behaviour flip, and sometimes it might even be a good one, but any given scum would rather not have to go back on one of their reads if given the choice.

eh I see what your saying, but I think it forces me into a WIFOM loop if I think about it too much. For example, if it was always more suspicious to reverse a read that scum tried to never do it, then it would actually be a town tell to reverse reads because scum would never do it.

Sure this happens. But occams razor. That is all.

Yeah, but also scum could call a townie town just because. Or when a townie is about to get lynched for towncred. Or etc.

I guess what I was really getting at between the 4 scenarios is, suppose IAUN gets lynched or vigged or something today/tonight and happens to be scum. Would you think, based on IAUN calling cworl town, that cworl is more likely to be scum, town, or null? What if IAUN is town? Is cworl town/scum/null? What if cworl dies first and flips town. Is IAUN town/scum/null? What if cworl flips scum? Is cworl town/scum/null?

Basically, I'm saying town or scum can point out town tells (or scum tells) on town or scum, and the only way to do that is in fact through questioning players' town reads and scum reads. There is no set rule that if a player calls town on another player, you will no for sure the other's allignment when one of them flips.

Fishy said he thought kuz was "scummy" and emp said "I'm ready to shift my vote back to you", so I'm not sure where you are getting the "no one was threatening to hammer" from.
Perhaps I should have asked kuz to claim, but I didn't.

Fair enough. I remember emp saying that but I guess I didnt remember kuz was in the VC at the time emp made that comment.

I don't remember your objection sticking out from before. I went back and had a look and the tone and content of your objection compared to kuz's is totally different. You were asking a question to iama, kuz was basically getting mad about it.

It looked more like obnoxious disbelief rather than anger to me, but in the context of his playstyle I can see how it looks like anger. Isn't it just semantics though? I mean, 2 different ways of saying the same thing. Emp's argument is that kuz isn't a newb, but if this comment makes kuz scum I would have to believe he is newbscum because experienced scum aren't going to get mad about a townie calling town on another townie (especially in the first 4 pages of the game) let alone show that anger in thread. Whereas, if I thought scum hated townies to have town read on other townies, I'd look first for the more experienced guy going about it discretely (not to implicate myself or anything ). Just thinking about the possibility that you singled out kuz because his playstyle would make him an easier lynch.

Can't I be doing both?
I thought the whole point is to try to convince others to vote who you think is scum?

You can do both, but not a the same time. If you're convincing others to vote who you think is scum, you have to already think the player is scum, and thus already have a read. IMO, it seemed like you skipped the figuring out stage and jumped right into the convincing others to lynch him stage. Unless you "figured out" he was scum entirely from his reaction to iaun calling cworl town, then I stand by my original comment that its a weak reason for thinking kuz is scum.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

For the people voting ThAdmiral, I want to note that I was recently in a game with him where he was town, and he hammered two players within the first eight pages of the game without waiting or even asking for a claim, and I would like to know if this information has any effect on your reads here.

Btw they were both scum as well.

That game was awesome.

@iaun: well yeah, but...

yeah, I guess then I wouldn't expect ThAd to ask for a claim then...
but, why would ThAd care to point out that kuz didn't claim at L-1 then if he doesn't care about claims before lynches?

@ThAd: *twitch* is the fact that they were both scum in that other game supposed to make us think you're town who's right about kuz in this game? (rhetorical question, mostly).

[C-Worl]

And there we go.

Some new guy

responds

Kuz tried to play the newbie card on himself. I acknowledged at the beginning that I didn't know anyone. So the only way I can see this point is that he assumed I was coming after him for being a newbie and he defended himself by saying "some new guy"

[C-Worl]

why would ThAd care to point out that kuz didn't claim at L-1 then if he doesn't care about claims before lynches?

Because there's a difference in context. He can not care about the claim at L1 (bc anyone can fake claim at L1 and it's easier than some make it sound) but the fact that Kuz DIDN'T claim shows that he needed time to MAKE a good fake claim (Good ones take time) It's scummy as hell.

Hypothetically.

If I got you to L1 and you claimed VT let's pretend I wouldn't care. It wouldn't shift my opinion one way or the other bc it's an easy fake claim. Same with claiming other common roles like Cop, Doctor, and Tracker. Because normally if you were one of those roles you should have been smart enough not to draw enough attention to be put at L1. So your claim wouldn't really be something that I cared about. HOWEVER, being put at L1 and NOT claiming gives off tremendous scummy vibes bc there are people who were asking for it. If you were town the simple reaction should be I'm [] with no thought really needed to be put into it.

[Beefster]

Votecount 1.5

kuz (3) - C-Worl, iamausername, ThAdmiral
ThAdmiral (3) - Rhinox, Fishy, sAb

Rhinox (1) - EmpTyger
C-Worl (1) - kuz

Not Voting

- Mitsuru Kijiro

With 9 players alive, it takes

5

to lynch.

Seeking a replacement for kuz

[ThAdmiral]

What about kuz's reaction to being at L-1 makes him scum?

- Whining about being called scum
- saying the people who called him scum were scum
- disappearing

Basically, I'm saying town or scum can point out town tells (or scum tells) on town or scum, and the only way to do that is in fact through questioning players' town reads and scum reads. There is no set rule that if a player calls town on another player, you will no for sure the other's allignment when one of them flips.

You're right. I have probably been banging on about the situation too hard, but I believe two things are true:
1. scum is far more likely to call people scum, and far less likely to call people town
2.

generally

when someone has a town tell on someone else they shouldn't be attacked for it for the reasons we have already talked about

I don't remember your objection sticking out from before. I went back and had a look and the tone and content of your objection compared to kuz's is totally different. You were asking a question to iama, kuz was basically getting mad about it.

It looked more like obnoxious disbelief rather than anger to me, but in the context of his playstyle I can see how it looks like anger.

Isn't it just semantics though? I mean, 2 different ways of saying the same thing

. Emp's argument is that kuz isn't a newb, but if this comment makes kuz scum I would have to believe he is newbscum because experienced scum aren't going to get mad about a townie calling town on another townie (especially in the first 4 pages of the game) let alone show that anger in thread. Whereas, if I thought scum hated townies to have town read on other townies, I'd look first for the more experienced guy going about it discretely (not to implicate myself or anything ). Just thinking about the possibility that you singled out kuz because his playstyle would make him an easier lynch.

I think

tone

and the

way

something is said is very important when trying to determine alignment.

dammit run out time.

more later...