Mini 1183: Mafiamatical Mathia - Game over!

[Oopidstay]

My point was and is that the sooner we get out of RVS the sooner we can do serious scumhunting

self voting applies pressure on no-one and we get no nearer out of RVS

therefore self-voting is a pointless anchor into the RVS and offers no momentum to the game (by itself at least)

Why haven't you indicated any suspicion of implosion, Morthas, and don, then? (That was a rhetorical question.) Point being, they weren't trying that hard to "get out of RVS and do some serious scumhunting" with their votes at that point of the game, either. What makes my self-vote different enough to make you call it scummy while ignoring the three people I just mentioned?

Of course self-voting doesn't generate moment

by itself

. If it did, it wouldn't be reaction hunting, would it? The whole point of doing something controversial is to see how people respond to it (or at least it should be). (By the way, we aren't in RVS anymore. Thank you. )

Also, Juls' reason for voting me, while misguided, is a lot more sensible than yours. Your attempt to validate your stance by equating it with someone else's is noted, though.

[Twistedspoon]

Of course self-voting doesn't generate moment

by itself

. If it did, it wouldn't be reaction hunting, would it? The whole point of doing something controversial is to see how people respond to it

but that's just it isn't it?

You didn't think it was controverisal as shown by

How is self-voting necessarily playing against my win condition?

Also

What makes my self-vote different enough to make you call it scummy while ignoring the three people I just mentioned?

ah the Tu Quoque logical fallacy

firstly

1) it doesn't matter that I haven't come round to the other players yet. Don't deflect onto them
2) I never called your self vote scummy now did I? I never said it was scummy. That's misrepping right there

[Morthas]

@twisted:
(Ok let's presume it's common sense that self voting is scummy. (Doubt anyone disagrees with me)
ii.Town player 1 does the scummy thing knowing it's overly scummy and stupid to do so, thus a town player with the ability to see things further than the obvious will not bother accusing him because it's a null tell.
iii.Look at people who try to accuse him of it being scummy.

iii. It's more likely that scum would accuse player 1 because scum find player 1 an easy target to attack thus looking like they are scumhunting.) <--- Gauging reactions with a good reason + Get's us out of RVS faster

My opinion on the whole debate
FOS at Juls because above explained reasons.
FoS at implo because of his convinced defense.
Null for Oopid since the idea of calling him town because of gauging reactions contains too much WIFOM
Not sure about Twisted, deserves a FoS atleast , Same reason as Juls + Played a game with him before and because of that game i am deciding i need more time to judge him.
Kalofer [joking]Complete and utter scum[/joking], Screw you, Shiro is fabulous D: Null


P-Edit: Double Ninja'd, going to read the above posts just a bit later.

[Oopidstay]

You didn't think it was controverisal as shown by

How is self-voting necessarily playing against my win condition?

This is a logical fallacy. Even if I didn't think something was controversial, that does not prevent me from recognizing that other people can consider it controversial, thus allowing me to use it to provoke responses.

Also:
1. So you do suspect them? The issue is why are you being selective in your application of suspicion? Why jump on me and not on one of those other three who, according to your reasoning for voting me, could just have easily garnered that vote?
2. So...you're saying that my self-vote was just anti-town. What does that make me, then? Anti-town as well?

[Twistedspoon]

Also:
1. So you do suspect them? The issue is why are you being selective in your application of suspicion? Why jump on me and not on one of those other three who, according to your reasoning for voting me, could just have easily garnered that vote?
2. So...you're saying that my self-vote was just anti-town. What does that make me, then? Anti-town as well?

1) to apply pressure obv. It seems to have worked. If you want my opinion on others though I think there might be one scum on my wagon. Kalofer and Impolsion's votes look like complete overreactions and an easy ticket to go unsuspected through my wagon

UNVOTE:

might have to do some thinking.

2) Your self vote was pointless at best. Unless you still think it was a good reaction fish in which case I would like to know what conclusions you were going to make from people pointing out that it was a waste of a vote

before

you self-voted

[Juls]

Unvote, vote implosion

. The more I think about it, the excuses he fed Oopid read as buddying.

@Morthas, can't help but notice that the post above doesn't come with any votes despite FoSing. Are you saying your RVS vote on implosion has become a real vote?

P-edit: he already noted his reactions in a previous post.

[Hoppster]

Day 1, Votecount 4

theplague42 - 0

[L - 5]

Twistedspoon - 3

[L - 2]

(implosion, Oopidstay, Kalofer)

Kalofer - 0

[L - 5]

Morthas - 0

[L - 5]

Juls - 1

[L - 4]

(don_johnson)

implosion - 2

[L - 3]

(Morthas, Juls)

Wickedestjr - 0

[L - 5]

don_johnson - 0

[L - 5]

Oopidstay - 0

[L - 5]

No Lynch - 0

[L - 5]

Not Voting - 3 (theplague42, Wickedestjr, Twistedspoon)

Deadline: Wednesday June 15th at 21:00 BST

Time left:

(expired on 2011-06-15 16:00:00)

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Juls is V/LA Thursday-Saturday.

The vote-count has been corrected - with 2 votes, implosion was at L-3 instead of L-4 as originally put.

[Twistedspoon]

2. So...you're saying that my self-vote was just anti-town. What does that make me, then? Anti-town as well?

well... sorta

as DJ put it

the rvs self vote is a discussion starter, but the ensuing discussion generally ends up being something more at home in a theory thread than in a game. at least thats my experience. self voting can actually be a useful tool if done right, but i think it takes experience to know when and how. it can help out regardless of your own alignment.

in short:

rvs self vote is null, anti-town. juls has every right to say this:

Right now, it's the worst vote out there. I have no reason to move my vote until he proves himself.

Kalofer and Impolsion's votes look like complete overreactions and an easy ticket to go unsuspected through my wagon

Yeah, I'm uncomfortable with the implosion sheeping too. I've played with implosionscum before. this is similar

VOTE: implosion

[Oopidstay]

2) Your self vote was pointless at best. Unless you still think it was a good reaction fish in which case I would like to know what conclusions you were going to make from people pointing out that it was a waste of a vote before you self-voted

I think I stirred the waters up enough to get some stuff to work with. I was mainly looking for bad reasons to vote me and overdefensiveness. Speaking of the latter...

Unvote: TwistedSpoon. Vote:

(P-edit: sees three votes on implosion.)

FoS: implosion

I'm still wary of you, Twisted, but I'll buy the pressure argument for now.

[Morthas]

Last post for today,
@

mod: Vote count is incorrect, implosion is closer to lynch

@Juls: Eh, yes, not completely sold on him being scum though (which is why i FoS'd him)

Mod-Edit:

In terms of where I had him at 2 votes [L-4] whereas 2 votes is actually L-3, right?

Corrected, and thanks for pointing this out.

[Twistedspoon]

I'm still wary of you, Twisted, but I'll buy the pressure argument for now.

and I'm still slightly wary of you but this ceasefire seems for the best

[Wickedestjr]

Mod: Unfortunately, I'm going to be V/LA this weekend. Very limited access Friday, no access Saturday, and slightly limited access Sunday.

Mod Edit:

Noted.

[Wickedestjr]

Kalofer and Oopidstay are scum.

Vote: Kalofer

[Wickedestjr]

question for all: do you find it more difficult to random vote when you are scum, or when you are town?

I've never random voted as scum and rarely do it as town. But I imagine if I was random voting as scum, then it would be more difficult.

@Juls- So, just to be clear, do you find Oopidstay suspicious at all for his selfvote?

2) I never called your self vote scummy now did I? I never said it was scummy. That's misrepping right there

Is it unreasonable for Oopidstay to have assumed that you found the self vote suspicious? If so, why?

Kalofer and Impolsion's votes look like complete overreactions and an easy ticket to go unsuspected through my wagon

Implosion was the first person to vote you.

Yeah, I'm uncomfortable with the implosion sheeping too.

Again, implosion was the first vote. How is that sheeping? Are you not paying attention?

I've played with implosionscum before. this is similar

Link, please.

[Twistedspoon]

Kalofer and Oopidstay are scum.

Vote: Kalofer

cool

how sure are you? Any reasons?

[Twistedspoon]

Kalofer and Impolsion's votes look like complete overreactions and an easy ticket to go unsuspected through my wagon

Implosion was the first person to vote you.

first vote or not it was still a complete overreaction to me pointing out that a self-vote isn't exactly that helpful. But I want to move on from the self-vote topic for now. I'm prepared to go along with the reaction fishing story.

I shall concede the point that I forgot implosion was the first vote though. My memory had oop as voter #1. nvm
I'm interested in your kalofer/oop theory right now

Is it unreasonable for Oopidstay to have assumed that you found the self vote suspicious? If so, why?

sorta. At the end of the day it was just an RVS vote. But it was suspicious/worthy enough for an RVS vote if that makes sense to you

I've played with implosionscum before. this is similar

Link, please.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... 34&start=0

Implosion and I didn't post much in that game. I have a faint memory of posts that didn't fit in though. This game is rather hazy in my mind :/

[Wickedestjr]

cool

how sure are you? Any reasons?

Yes, I've got reasoning. And it's pretty strong for only 2 pages into the game. I'm not explaining, yet, though. Waiting to see what others think.

first vote or not it was still a complete overreaction to me pointing out that a self-vote isn't exactly that helpful. But I want to move on from the self-vote topic for now. I'm prepared to go along with the reaction fishing story.

My reason for mentioning he was the first to vote you was to address the 'easy ticket to go unsuspected through my wagon' comment. How did implosion and Kalofer overreact, in your opinion? And why is that suspicious? Personally, I see no overreactions.

[Wickedestjr]

@implosion- which allignment do you enjoy the most: town or scum?

[Twistedspoon]

How did implosion and Kalofer overreact, in your opinion? And why is that suspicious? Personally, I see no overreactions.

well from my PoV the votes were enough of an overreaction. I played my part by pointing out the self-vote and placing my RVS vote on oop.
Pointing out the obvious and adding a page 1 RVS vote does not usually merit such a response in my experience :/

[Wickedestjr]

So are you now saying you didn't vote for Oopidstay because of his selfvote? Because that's what it looks like you are saying in your last post.

Also, what do you think of Kalofer?

[Twistedspoon]

i voted him because of the self vote, sure. It was pressure worthy and something to talk about. I also wanted to get the game going and build some momentum which a self-vote usually doesn't create

but at the end of the day it was still an RVS vote. Self votes could have come from any alignment so I didn't consider it particularly scummy, just something that was just asking to be questioned and voted.

Kalofer? Eh
he has one post with content so it's hard to say.
Town? Maybe. Deluded town if he is though. He got the wrong end of the stick in our last game together too when he could have confirmed me as town and prevented my lynch, but he chose not to for some bizzare reason. So it doesn't surprise me that kalofer may have the wrong end of the stick here too.

I'll give him a null-town read, which is really generous since he has only one post of content

and looking back through the microscopic Kalofer iso I am reminded that Plaguey is in this game, but he hasn't shown up

@Mod: does plaguey know the game has started? If not, remind him please

can we take plague's lateness as a town tell? Surely in the scum QT he would have been alerted if the game had begun? I don't know :p

[Hoppster]

Day 1, Votecount 5

theplague42 - 0

[L - 5]

Twistedspoon - 2

[L - 3]

(implosion, Kalofer)

Kalofer - 1

[L - 4]

(Wickedestjr)

Morthas - 0

[L - 5]

Juls - 1

[L - 4]

(don_johnson)

implosion - 3

[L - 2]

(Morthas, Juls, Twistedspoon)

Wickedestjr - 0

[L - 5]

don_johnson - 0

[L - 5]

Oopidstay - 0

[L - 5]

No Lynch - 0

[L - 5]

Not Voting - 2 (theplague42, Oopidstay)

Deadline: Wednesday June 15th at 21:00 BST

Time left:

(expired on 2011-06-15 16:00:00)

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Juls is V/LA Thursday-Saturday.

Wickedestjr is V/LA Friday-Sunday.

@Mod: does plaguey know the game has started? If not, remind him please

theplague42 has been reminded that the game has started. If 48 hours pass since the game start without him posting, he will be prodded as usual.

[Twistedspoon]

c'mon plaguey

the party's just getting started

[Wickedestjr]

FoS: Twistedspoon

[Twistedspoon]

is this another instance where you're witholding reasons?