TV Mafia Game Over - Scum Win

[jilynne1991]

Ok, I learned from [REDACTED] that vezo's actually pretty smart, I'm against the rumors that he's a VI. Ok, well I guess he's a VI, but he can be helpful.

[marco1610]

I'm not trying to "implicate" anything, your reason for not participating in the RVS is NOT valid, that's all I'm trying to say. Understand now? You are overreacting, there would be no backlash from you voting in the RVS stage, I'm just telling you there was no reason to really hold back.

If you insist you're not trying to implicate me, then I'm either not putting my point across clearly or you're not paying attention to what I said.

your reason for not participating in the RVS is NOT valid

I didn't avoid participating in the RVS. It is still underway. I did not vote because I did not. No reason. I had yet to go through the thread. I did not know anyone. I was posting from my phone. I did not want to RNG unnecessarily when I could just vote later. Like I did.

You are overreacting, there would be no backlash from you voting in the RVS stage, I'm just telling you there was no reason to really hold back.

But I did not. Not voting at once does not mean I won't vote at all.

[Vifam]

I'm not trying to "implicate" anything, your reason for not participating in the RVS is NOT valid, that's all I'm trying to say. Understand now? You are overreacting, there would be no backlash from you voting in the RVS stage, I'm just telling you there was no reason to really hold back.

If you insist you're not trying to implicate me, then I'm either not putting my point across clearly or you're not paying attention to what I said.

your reason for not participating in the RVS is NOT valid

I didn't avoid participating in the RVS. It is still underway. I did not vote because I did not. No reason. I had yet to go through the thread. I did not know anyone. I was posting from my phone. I did not want to RNG unnecessarily when I could just vote later. Like I did.

You are overreacting, there would be no backlash from you voting in the RVS stage, I'm just telling you there was no reason to really hold back.

But I did not. Not voting at once does not mean I won't vote at all.

I'm not trying to imply you WON'T vote, I'm saying that your reason for NOT voting at the time when Rod had done something genuinely suspicious isn't really *valid*. And the fact that you asked why we are lynching Vizok implies that you didn't want to participate unless there was proof, well, Rod had done something scummy, so isn't that proof enough at this stage of the game?


You seem to think that I'm trying to make you come off as scummy when I'm not.

[Vifam]

Also I had no idea you were in the middle of doing other things, maybe if you said that before we wouldn't be discussing this :/

[MagnaofIllusion]

Talking about vezok is my opinion on why he shouldn't be speedlynched for merely suggesting a mass nameclaim. Moreover, the suggestion that he fullclaims is a way to deter that idea. Even if you think he is scummy, why go for a speedlynch before hearing him claim (I see no pro-town reasoning behind this idea)? I said this because of this post:

So are you saying him full-claiming well before he gets anywhere near L-1 is a good way to deter a ‘speedlynch’? I want to be clear on this point.

This is my first non-marathon game on this site and I don't know any of you. I was not sure whether you were seriously planning to speedlynch vezok or not.

Why, regardless of this, are you worried about a ‘speedlynch’ when he never acquired more than 4 votes?

Magna/Vifam - careful there, as leading mislynches against new players that theoretically shouldn't know how to defend themselves properly is considered a scum tell where I come from.

1. Slight Appeal to Emotion (in classifying yourself as a ‘mislynch’) noted.
2. Where do you come from? Do you regularly assume that recently signed up players there have no Mafia experience by which to “defend themselves”. On your site is it standard procedure to never apply pressure to new players as a scum-hunting measure?

--

(My bold)- Why do you feel the need to label your vote as being on an RVS wagon? I think it is quite clear, considering this was the second vote of the game, that we were still in RVS. There is no reason why a townie would have to make it so clear that their vote is a RVS vote. This looks to me like you are trying to distance yourself from the wagon if it were to result in a lynch on vezok.

Ok, so your assertions are that –

1. Town players never label votes RVS votes?
2. I’m trying to distance from a theoretical lynch that never got more than 4 votes off the ground?

You may want to look at Rodion's join date, he is clearly new to MS.net and is obviously new to the way we do things here. I expect better than this from townMoI. It appears to me that you are grasping at straws in an attempt to get a real wagon going since a vezok policy lynch is not going to happen (which I think is what you were hoping for).

Oh, so pressuring players to determine their alignment and level of competency isn’t allowed?

As for grasping at straws – I think this post by you demonstrates that particular tactic quite well.

[Meransiel]

Param. Can't post today, sorry.

[Pappums Leather Jacket]

Ok, so your assertions are that –

1. Town players never label votes RVS votes?
2. I’m trying to distance from a theoretical lynch that never got more than 4 votes off the ground?

1. I have never, ever, ever seen a townie label their vote as being in RVS. Have you ever done this before? Have you even seen other townies do this before?
2. Yes, that is the way I saw it.

Oh, so pressuring players to determine their alignment and level of competency isn’t allowed?

No, that is fine of course, I just saw it as going after an easy target.

[ThreeIsFrench]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: marco

not getting a good vibe from him. How much experience do you have offsite, marco?

~hip

[marco1610]

I'm not trying to imply you WON'T vote, I'm saying that your reason for NOT voting at the time when Rod had done something genuinely suspicious isn't really *valid*. And the fact that you asked why we are lynching Vizok implies that you didn't want to participate unless there was proof, well, Rod had done something scummy, so isn't that proof enough at this stage of the game?

I asked why we were lynching Vizok rhetorically, as I've already answered. It was even in response to a person saying, "Why are people derailing the Vizok lynch?" If I'm not mistaken, the way people were talking about it; he's a usual day 1 lynch target. And that is why I framed that question.

You seem to think that I'm trying to make you come off as scummy when I'm not.

Well what was I supposed to think when you said

No, trust me, those were excuses. It's the RVS stage, and not knowing people is *Not* a legitimate reason, at all. It's important to apply pressure to the players around you, you're "reason" is anti town.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: marco

not getting a good vibe from him. How much experience do you have offsite, marco?

~hip

A dozen or so games with at least 20-30 people in each game. Around 50 in some. Admittedly, they're not as thorough as the games on mafiascum. The dayphases only last 24 hours where I come from and in thread scum hunting usually takes a back seat to day and night actions.

[Rodion]

Talking about vezok is my opinion on why he shouldn't be speedlynched for merely suggesting a mass nameclaim. Moreover, the suggestion that he fullclaims is a way to deter that idea. Even if you think he is scummy, why go for a speedlynch before hearing him claim (I see no pro-town reasoning behind this idea)? I said this because of this post:

So are you saying him full-claiming well before he gets anywhere near L-1 is a good way to deter a ‘speedlynch’? I want to be clear on this point.

I never said "fullclaim now". I said: "if you're really going to pursue this speedlynch idea over his unfortunate comment regarding the mass nameclaim, at least give him the opportunity to full claim".

Let's see:

1 - There was game talk in the confirmation stage.
2 - After the game started, he got 4 votes in 42 minutes.
3 - One of the 4 players clearly mentioned he wanted a speedlynch . It is now established that he was joking, but I was not sure because:
a - I'm new here and I don't know how you guys roll.
b - this game is unique because people talked about relevant stuff before confirm stage (never seen this before in the other site), so it lead me to consider the possibility that the vezok wagon was not jokevote (or RVS, that seems to be how you call jokevotes here), but a serious one.
4 - I was about to sleep and have no computer access for the next 11-12 hours.

So, yes, I thought he could have been hammered by the time I got to the computer again and considered that pointing to the necessity of hearing from him first was good.

This is my first non-marathon game on this site and I don't know any of you. I was not sure whether you were seriously planning to speedlynch vezok or not.

Why, regardless of this, are you worried about a ‘speedlynch’ when he never acquired more than 4 votes?

Read above.

Magna/Vifam - careful there, as leading mislynches against new players that theoretically shouldn't know how to defend themselves properly is considered a scum tell where I come from.

1. Slight Appeal to Emotion (in classifying yourself as a ‘mislynch’) noted.
2. Where do you come from? Do you regularly assume that recently signed up players there have no Mafia experience by which to “defend themselves”. On your site is it standard procedure to never apply pressure to new players as a scum-hunting measure?

1 - Well, I am a mislynch. Period. Granted, scum would claim to be town as well, but I'm not appealing to emotion as much as stating a fact, fact being "I am town".
2a - ConquerClub. It's actually a site for the board game "Risk", but the forums are big and there is a mafia subforum. Here's the link to the subforum:
http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=213

My name there is the same, Rodion (Rex avatar from Toy Story) - I'm actually new there as well (as far as mafia goes), I probably have around 3 completed and 5 ongoing games of experience.

2b - Yes, we regularly assume that recent signed up players have no mafia experience, unless they claim otherwise.

2c - Obviously, roles are given out randomly and new players are not "immune" to being scum, so they can and should be pressured. Problem is, if you don't have strong evidence against the "newbies", making a tempest in a teapot seems like an attempt to go for the easy lynch and, as such, is viewed as a scum tell.

[Leonshade]

I never said "fullclaim now". I said: "if you're really going to pursue this speedlynch idea over his unfortunate comment regarding the mass nameclaim, at least give him the opportunity to full claim".

That's not what you said. Whether or not you meant that, it's not the message people got from your original post. Mafia's based on communication, saying one thing then claiming that you meant something different when called out on it makes it look like you're trying to give excuses for your behavior.

[Rodion]

I never said "fullclaim now". I said: "if you're really going to pursue this speedlynch idea over his unfortunate comment regarding the mass nameclaim, at least give him the opportunity to full claim".

That's not what you said. Whether or not you meant that, it's not the message people got from your original post. Mafia's based on communication, saying one thing then claiming that you meant something different when called out on it makes it look like you're trying to give excuses for your behavior.

Tl;dr of my first post:

"speedlynch bad, fullclaim good".

You're free to interpret how you see fit, but to me it is clear that I only suggested a fullclaim as a means to deter the speedlynch idea.

[Leonshade]

On vezok: I agree that a mass nameclaim is neutral at best for town and it consequently should not be done. I don't think his request warrants a speedlynch, though (I don't know whether people are serious about it or it is just part of the jokevote stage), but a pressure for him to fullclaim seems good.

The original post for reference.

So yes, "speedlynch bad, fullclaim good" seems to be what you said there. "If you're really going to pursue this speedlynch idea over his unfortunate comment regarding the mass nameclaim, at least give him the opportunity to full claim" does not fit, however. After all, the the two interpretations you've offered are directly contradictory; one implies that vezok should only be pressured to fullclaim (which is what you said), the other says that

if

vezok will be speedlynched, he should be forced to fullclaim first.

Of course, another question is why you would ever pressure someone to fullclaim if you're not planning on lynching them. That's not something you should do on D1 without some very special circumstances.

[silverbullet999]

too lazy to switch (this is silverdrummer)

This head is v/la til friday

sowwiz

[Pinky and the Brain]

Ok, I learned from [REDACTED] that vezo's actually pretty smart, I'm against the rumors that he's a VI. Ok, well I guess he's a VI, but he can be helpful.

Don't like the fencesitting, as she seems to be calling vezok a VI and not a VI in the same post, while not taking a real stance. Not to mention no commentary on anything else going on right now.

Vote: Jilynne1991

Don't like the Rodion wagon. He's defending himself well enough and seems to just be noobtown to me. Also don't like how Magna's pushing him so hard.

-diddin

[Vifam]

Ok, I learned from [REDACTED] that vezo's actually pretty smart, I'm against the rumors that he's a VI. Ok, well I guess he's a VI, but he can be helpful.

Don't like the fencesitting, as she seems to be calling vezok a VI and not a VI in the same post, while not taking a real stance. Not to mention no commentary on anything else going on right now.

Vote: Jilynne1991

Don't like the Rodion wagon. He's defending himself well enough and seems to just be noobtown to me. Also don't like how Magna's pushing him so hard.

-diddin

Gah, didn't even notice that. I agree with this.


VOTE: Jillynne

[Zinger2099]

You know that guy you see going into the convenience store when you stop off at that little town on the way to grandma's house? A sort of shifty looking fella who buys a pack of smokes, a couple of lotto scratchers and a tall boy at ten in the morning? The kind of guy you wait for to come out before you and your family go in? Well, that guy is me. My name is Earl. And if you took the time to really get to know me, find out what kind of person I truly am instead of just stereotyping me because of the way I look, well, you'd be wasting your time, because I'm exactly who you think I am. Hell, I'll pretty much steal anything that isn't nailed down.

[David Xanatos]

I'm not sure where the [REDACTED] came from.. was that a prior game title or was that a smarmy way of saying "I've read his previous games"?

[ThAdmiral]

1. I have never, ever, ever seen a townie label their vote as being in RVS. Have you ever done this before? Have you even seen other townies do this before?

What? Yes, of course.

I never said "fullclaim now". I said: "if you're really going to pursue this speedlynch idea over his unfortunate comment regarding the mass nameclaim, at least give him the opportunity to full claim".

Well actually you said: "I don't think his request warrants a speedlynch, though (I don't know whether people are serious about it or it is just part of the jokevote stage),

but a pressure for him to fullclaim seems good

" which is a poor choice of words. If you really did mean what you say above you should have said something like: "but a pressure for him to fullclaim would be better".

It's ok though, I believe that it was an honest mistake. You sound genuine, and I don't think you are scum.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'm not sure where the [REDACTED] came from.. was that a prior game title or was that a smarmy way of saying "I've read his previous games"?

[REDACTED] is a way to reference ongoing game in a way that skirts site rules enough that it generally isn't Modkill worthy.

[Chevre]

Unvote

this game is a mess. I think a nameclaim is a bad idea; even if factions are randomized, it may be the case that their TV Roles have a factor in any PRs that may exist.

[Pvt Slate]

VOTE: Cj

Because pirates and cats just don't go together.

Yes I am playing, I'm EST.

LET'S GO!

[ZeL1nK]

I am going to vig Zinger tonight. Anyone have a problem with this?

I think a nameclaim is a bad idea; even if factions are randomized, it may be the case that their TV Roles have a factor in any PRs that may exist.

If it's like the last jasont game, roles are randomised, not just alignments.

The reason it's a bad idea is because it's a waste of time and achieves nothing.

[David Xanatos]

I'm curious, why Zinger? Is this Karma coming back to him?

[killerjester]

My understanding is that you have just joined MS from another site after the ‘challenge’ thread in MD. Is this understanding correct?

If so do you have previous interactions or knowledge of Vezok elsewhere?

No, I played SC2 custom map a bit and found my way here independently. I've never heard of vezok before this thread.

The Jilynne lead seems (comparatively) the strongest lead we have atm, and we haven't elicited a response yet so I feel my vote is best placed there so everyone knows we mean srs business.

UNVOTE: VOTE: Jilynne1991