Mini 1267~ Complete

[implosion]

Why do you call yourself confirmed town and then proceed to speak from a neutral point of view?

[Pine]

Not entirely sure where you're getting a neutral point of view from that, it's my point of view.

[implosion]

Pine, Retro & Bez*: Confirmed Town

Bionic, Implosion, Regfan, Triangle: Not confirmed Town.

We

have three lynches at our disposal. The odds of

us

fucking up are pretty small. Lynch away.

[Retrospective]

What are you even saying implosion?

A neutral point of view would be saying 'Town has three lynches', 'the odds of town fucking up'... Using we and us includes himself in the town.

[implosion]

i might have misinterpreted it. it sounded like he was implying that we should all agree with his plan. Like, saying that the odds of us fucking up are small is implying that the town as a whole will be willing to assume that pine is town.

[Regfan]

I'll elaborate into why I think he's scum other than due to PoE when it's not 2:30am.

Reading back into this it's not as strong as I thought but other than Pine I'm failing to see how anyone else can be scum so I'll go into it anyway.

- Beyonds calling Pine a 'victim' reads as off as does the fact that he states he has a relatively strong town read on Pine throughout the whole day until near the end where it comes nulltown while complaining about 'meta, meta, meta' for the read. Pine avoided Beyond for most parts of D1 and limited interaction with him, the one bit of interaction he does have he states he likes Beyond and nothing more.

- Pines agreement and suggestion that holding of investigating Bez today and instead outright lynching him would lead towards the following occurring if Bez was town and the final scum was a RB which is highly possible: 1) No clears due to reports 2) A mslynch occurring 3) Retrospective having to explain Implosions death tomorrow and likely be mslynched due to it.

- Pines lack of care about what happens today, although this game is almost in the bag there's no reason at all to lay down and suggest random lynching whereas scum don't want to find reasoning to suggest that someone is scum as when they flip town they're in bad shape thus random lynching is optimal for them.

He gave a fos on triangle, and then eventually just collapsed into calling him town. And he said he couldn't read new players, then later said that triangle was town because he sounded more like new town than new scum. It feels like scum wanting to be ambivalent on their partner and then deciding that it's better to call them town.

This is all true however he attacks her suspicion of him while calling her town in Post #305, the manner in which it's done doesn't read as distancing. On top of that he tries to defend himself against not claiming directed towards her remarks in Post #327 that makes me lean against them being partners.

I think I need to see a current top suspects list from people.

Town (S->W)

: Bionichop2, Retrospective, Implosion, (Large gap), Triangle123 = Bez.

Scum (S->W)

: Pine.

[Me=Weird]

votecount

bezukhov(1): Retrospective
triangle123(2): implosion, bionicchop2
Retrospective(1): Bezukhov
Pine(1): Regfan
bionicchop2(1): Pine
Not Voting(1): triangle123

With 7 alive, it's 4 to lynch.
Day 2 deadline is December 2, in (expired on 2011-12-02 23:11:17).

[Bezukhov]

Um Jeff... there was nothing reasonable OR logical about anything in that case. I've cooled down so you can take this legitimately. You cannot label something logical if you had to ignore 16 other logical and reasonable conclusions to get there. I know you're trying to defend him because I was an ass but I refuse to believe that you really see even a figment of merit in Bez play this whole game. Seriously, ISO him. Perhaps I was too mean but god this site is frustrating me. I decided to come back to MS because I didn't want to deal with how bad the players at EM are and I really wanted to play mafia. But between this game and my other current game, it pains me to say that I fear EM might be smarter. I am absolutely appalled at the level of play from over half the players I've met here and it adds insult to injury that this site holds itself in such high regard. After Bez informed us that he would not remove his vote from the uncc'd protective role who claimed completely unprovoked to put himself in autoloss if he is scum for ANY reason, he thoroughly earned my disrespect. I will say this though, I should have handled myself better and not thrown a fit so I'm sorry for being such a dick.

I wont say anything else about the matter. I will just replace out of any future game Bez enters from here on out if I stay onsite.

Since the Mod is apparently unwilling to take action on this, I'm actually going to go ahead and accept this apology, half-assed as it may be, since it's a bit stupid for me to hold up this game because of this clusterfuck.

Consider that last sentence to be +1'ed.


For everyone's benefit: I FULLY understand the point about Retro's unprovoked bodyguard claim being a stretch for scum to make. If he somehow doesn't die, it will be hard for him to explain, e.g. at LYLO, why he wasn't night-killed AND was unsuccesful at protecting the right players at night. THAT BEING SAID, are there any reasons besides the roleclaim why Retro is as-good-as-confirmed-town in most people's eyes? I have read his eventual explanations regarding my earlier questions, but they are not very convincing (About the timing of his claim:

"Yeah, my bad, I should have waited"

; about the Nurse-claim:

"I was unfamiliar with the role and thus confused"

; about the doc-claim joke: Nothing, as far as I'm seeing).

The point is, the same logic he's using would go for any non-vanilla roleclaim any player would make in the same spot (see #440, where Regfan makes essentially the same argument about implosion's claim). This means that, if we allow for the possibility of Retro being smart enough to foresee this situation, it is possible that he (as pretty desperate scum that just lost their buddy) would try a risky play like this, and hope to out-WIFOM the town long enough to win. It seems to be working for now, also (and yes, I realize that the last sentence is not an argument in itself).

So if any non-Retro player could clarify why Retro is town, that would be great. Maybe I can learn something from it and not suck so bad (lol).

I do wonder why Retro is still voting me, by the way.

I'll read the rest tomorrow.

[bionicchop2]

OK, we need to get things moving here. We are not lynching Retro, Bez or Implosion today. Get your votes off them. Retro is going to flip a coin and protect either Bez or Implosion so Mafia can only kill Retro or one of the 4 'unclears'.

We choose a lynch out of: me, triangle, Pine and Reg.

Bez - there is no reason for us to go through the exercise of explaining why retro is town outside of his role claim right now.

[Retrospective]

I'm not gonna coin save Bez. Scum, go ahead and shoot him.

[triangle123]

Vote: Regfan

Process of elimination. Deadline's coming up soon and I really wish I had more reasoning behind this.

[bionicchop2]

I'm not gonna coin save Bez. Scum, go ahead and shoot him.

Cool. In the meantime, get your vote somewhere useful.

[Pine]

Hmm. Actually, I'm looking over Regfan's list again, and noticing that he has Bezukhov down near neutral, only one notch above me. Bezukhov is confirmed Town. Why the hell would he have him down there if not to throw suspicion where there should be none?

I could support a Regfan lynch.

Unvote
Vote: Regfan

[implosion]

I dislike a regfan lynch.

This is all true however he attacks her suspicion of him while calling her town in Post #305, the manner in which it's done doesn't read as distancing. On top of that he tries to defend himself against not claiming directed towards her remarks in Post #327 that makes me lean against them being partners.

I cringe every time i try to read post 305. He eventually says

Triangle acts like noob-town. Not much more to say. I don't like her case of saying BB is probably town->null-> possibly scum without much thought explained to the transition. It's almost too quick.

And that sounds like scum saying their scumbuddy is town while keeping a "way out."

not sure what to make of 327. BB sounded like he was responding to the town as a whole and not just triangle.

Bez - there is no reason for us to go through the exercise of explaining why retro is town outside of his role claim right now.

Well said.

[Regfan]

Hmm. Actually, I'm looking over Regfan's list again, and noticing that he has Bezukhov down near neutral, only one notch above me. Bezukhov is confirmed Town. Why the hell would he have him down there if not to throw suspicion where there should be none?

Consider it slightly paranoia due to ho bad Birthdays interactions with him is along with process of elimination. To put it simply I find it near impossible for one of Retro, Implosion and Bionic to be scum therefore my suspicion of Bez as minimal as it is given the innocent on him still places him as more likely to be scum than most other players.

All of that's trivial though because I think you're scum.

[Pine]

Implosion claimed a cop innocent on him. Either Implosion is our one remaining scum, in which case Bez is innocent, or Implosion is telling the truth and Bez is innocent that way. That is all that actually matters in the end.

I don't mind taking one for the team if I have to, but I will not let you perpetuate a falsifiable case against Confirmed Town.

[Bezukhov]

Regfan, can you point out where I had "bad interactions" with B_B?

To everyone, if we assume all PR-claims are true, we still have four unconfirmeds with three lynches available. So the game isn't won yet (even though if you're unconfirmed town yourself, it obviously looks like that).

I prefer a Pine lynch ATM, since Regfan, bionic and triangle have been more protown-like overall (great reasoning, I know).

UNVOTE: Retrospective
VOTE: Pine

[Papa Zito]

fin.