Policy Discussion: Newbie Games

[Mr. Flay]

I could argue for firmer deadlines in Newbie Games. I wonder if there's some sort of standard we can come to; I think two weeks is enough time, so long as everyone is participating, to evaluate a Day One. It's not "realistic" in the same sense that most games won't call Day after 2-3 weeks, but Newbie Games that drag on for 2-3 months aren't much fun for people either in my experience, and maybe it would cut down on the dropouts.

But if one of our points is to show people the slow, methodical pace of games on MafiaScum, then this suggestion has no merit. Unless we want to speed up that pace sitewide...

[Mr. Flay]

Clarification: I think 7-0 when all seven are complete newbies to the game is a bad idea, but I don't see a problem with games in which 3-4 are first-timers and the rest have played a completed game on MafiaScum. I think we vastly overrate the importance of ICs when compared to the Moderator, Wiki, and people's

actual experience

, which may have come on other sites or in RL games!

And yet,

mafiascum

, GL, and a dozen other sites have all had all-newbie games work out just fine. I wonder that we're being too elitist here; as mith said, some ICs are worse than having no advisor at all.

.... We're Mafiascum <.<

Correct. And we started out without Newbie Games at all, much less IC "helpers" or advisors, or even a wiki! And somehow, we managed, by and large.

So 326 ended in a Quick Lynch. So what?

It's one game.

I've seen it done numerous times with 4-3 as well (especially if one of those ICs is one of your scum on D2), MeMe, IH, and EmpTyger all pointed it out after the game, and none of those players is likely to make the same mistake again. Lesson learned, right? We take this place way too seriously, sometimes...

[The Fonz]

Clarification: I think 7-0 when all seven are complete newbies to the game is a bad idea, but I don't see a problem with games in which 3-4 are first-timers and the rest have played a completed game on MafiaScum.

I was just thinking, people who have completed one game seem less likely to flake, even if they are still newbies by site standards. And having a set of 'Sandbox' type games for people who've completed one 'regular' newbie game and want to experiment amongst one another keeps semi-newbies out of the main newbie games queue, unless they felt they need the help, which might mean you could preserve 4-3 there.

It would need very good modding though.

[mith]

EmpTyger, I haven't read all of N326 obviously, but I'm not seeing what was so terrible about what happened there. There were obviously mistakes made by the town, but I'd bet they learned a lot from those mistakes. If perfect play is the standard we're trying to achieve in a two day newbie game, we're crazy.

I think you're misrepresenting the 7-0 argument. I'm not suggesting we stick 7 brand spanking new players in a game and turn them loose without any help or information. Part of what I hope comes out of this (and I'll be writing more on it when I have time) is a more complete guide for the new players.

The concept of an IC player is relatively new. It's one way of showing the basics, but it's certainly not the only way. Plenty of great players have learned the game just by reading the rules, and maybe a previous game or two. I think it's possible that we're even harming the new players by giving them ICs to rely on early on; some newbies might get used to the idea of someone being there to provide all the answers, rather than doing some reading and working it out for themselves.

[IH]

They had a fruitful day 1 of learning experience sure, but day 2 was a pointless technicality that didn't do anything but hand the scum a win.

Now the game would have clearly gone on, and perhaps a different game that was more fun to play and provide more learning would have gone on with the simple statement of 'Don't vote for someone in Lylo" and explain lylo.

I have a newbie intro that I've begun to post in all my newbie games, and I'm adding that one to it = )

[mith]

Well, yes, exactly. "Don't vote

too quickly

in lylo" is something that could easily be put into some sort of newbie guide. I fail to see how this would be any less helpful than an IC IH putting it in an opening post.

[IH]

Well that was more of the main point, that the only way that 5-2 should be the accepted norm after a newbie burst is that IC's would have to cover every thing possible in the game of mafia on day 1.

[matrix]

according to mafia scums definition I am a newbie.

I have played several 9 person turbo games (days last 20 mins) and 1 "long" game with 17 players - days lasting a max of 12 hours NIGHT falling on majority.

So I'm way ahead of some of the "newbies" here and aabout on the same level as other newbies.

I am content with playing a couple of shorter games to get used to the site etc.

Altho why do your newbie games run with 7 players?

Wouldn't a better newbie game be a 9 player game - with the games starting on a Day phase and the Cop getting a n0 peek (if he exists) with 2 mafia.

You could then run a ratio of 6:3 - clear the backlog much faster along with providing at least one IC player pro town and at least 1 IC player making it to d2.

apologies if the c9 7player format has been done to death already.

[Raffles]

The games here lasts way, way, longer than either of the turbo games or long games. However, if you feel confident enough then feel free to join a mini.


One problem I find with a newbie game is it is so

dry

. I find it stripped down to bare compnents and there is not much excitement to play it. The first day especially can be very sterile.

I don't think it takes much to spice it up. If newbie games had a cop head-first, (since C9 is so favourable to the scum side anyway) then the town side has some information to start with. The flip side is that newbie cops might claim on the first day. Another one might be to add a town mason pair. Some ICs here might complain this is too complicated.

I don't agree with having 9 players. A C9 doesn't hold the same level of excitement as minis or normal. In retrospect, it is probably one of the hardest setting to play in because it is favoured so much to the scum side, and so heavily relied on communication. Some might argue this is a good training, and I whole-heartedly agree. But to newbies, this is probably feels like being dropped in a deep end. Newbies find this too much, and drop out of the game altogether.

I think it might be a good idea to drop 2scum:5townie setting. Have at least one power-role for the town.

[JDodge]

I don't think it takes much to spice it up. If newbie games had a cop head-first, (since C9 is so favourable to the scum side anyway) then the town side has some information to start with. The flip side is that newbie cops might claim on the first day. Another one might be to add a town mason pair. Some ICs here might complain this is too complicated.

The average town win rate in a newbie game is roughly 33.52% at the moment. The average town win rate without the townie-only setup, however, increases to 34.18%, which tells me that any change will be trivial at best. It's good for newbies to experience being a townie.

[Raffles]

I'm not really concerned with the win rate, as far as newbie game is concerned. The whole point of a newbie game is to teach, not strictly to win. It doesn't matter if you lose so long as you've learnt and has been armed with enough know-how to play a mini normal. I'm saying the newbie games might need a spark of interest.

[Raffles]

Another good way is to have a mod that can write a good scene. I know Mr. Flay sets the theme ery well with writing very good night-scenes, introductions, etc. And have the mod diligent enough to write vote count at the top of every page, etc.

[Tyfo]

If the site goes for 7-0, would an technical IC player then not be able to join any newbie-games? I'm still a newbie by heart, and have lots to learn. -_-

[Jack]

I've seen games with all newbies that have a lynch within a page. IC's were a great help in my first game, although I got the same info from reading past games.

[matrix]

The games here lasts way, way, longer than either of the turbo games or long games.

how long do games last on average?

I note that the mod in my game *probably* won't let a game day last longer than a month... A MONTH !! ?? !

What differences to game play does having much longer days make to the game? From my admittedly noob point of view it seems that this favours the scum even more as they can now take as long as they like to craft posts that "sound" stream of conciousness when they are in fact nothing of the sort.

The scum also have plenty of time to work out in intricate detail their plans for the next days lynch who to attack and why etc etc.

Are there also plus points for having a longer format for the town as well?

Are there any games hosted here that run at a faster pace? - one of the things I enjoy about playing turbo games is that it involves a lot of "thinking on your feet" - when you are under real time pressure often the mafia make little mistakes they might not otherwise and you can pick apart their arguments (of course the harder part is to convince your fellow dumb townies that x is scum because of y without them lynching you )

I am not saying loooong games are bad - just trying to understand why.

I might jump in to a mini game soon - thanks for the HU.

[IH]

Longer games give the town more time to analyze things, make better connections, and generally get a better read on people.

You should look at some PBPs and such.

Raffles, I would also say that stripped down games are some of the best ones. As long as they're relatively small, then they're fun. It gets down to the real grit of the game. Town looking for scum.

= )

[Raffles]

One problem I see with ICs being in the game is the scum ICs misleading newbie town. If we get 2:5 and both ICs are scums, then for example they may persuade the town into no lynch on the first day. Whilst haing three ICs might solve this to some extent, it's not foolproof. The town IC maybe ridiculed in the face of two more experienced IC scums.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

ICs have an obligation to teach, so I don't see that happening. Playing to win is one thing, but I don't think any IC would go that far.

Besides, there are plenty of newbies who do know a bit about the game. It's a horribly risky strategy.

[Raffles]

Yah, that was an extreme example, but I can see it happening with many other stuffs. I was more trying to convey the unfair amount of influence over the newbies. Newbies will naturally think ICs know better. This can lead to few problems, as there is no "standard model" for IC. Every IC has different opinions, some more extreme than others. Take me for example, I believe that most of the scum-tells don't actually work.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

As long as you don't present it as an absolute truth, I see no problems with newbies being exposed to different opinions. There is no one way to play mafia.

[Raffles]

To solve the IC problem, maybe lift the restriction on number of games ICs can participate? Instead of being one, maybe three? I'm in one game as a newbie atm, and I'll be an IC soon. I'd love to help out but as I understand it, I'm only allowed to participate in one newbie game altogether.

Also, I see shortage of Mods in newbie games too, but an excessively large queue for mini normal. Maybe the requirement for newbie game mods should be lowered to same level as mini normal mods.

I don't think these two would involve too much risk.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

ICs can already play in multiple games.

[thedocsalive]

Hey guys, I just stopped by this site for a bit for the first time in awhile, so sorry if I skimmed over anything.

Why not divide up the newbies into groups? You have those who are completely new, and those who either have played two or three (pretty arbitrary, doesn't really matter which) games on mafiascum or claim to have outside experience. Depending on how many newbies fit into this "experienced newbie" category, you can run games 4-2-1 (newbie, IC, experienced newbie) or 3-2-2. This should help contribute to running games almost as smoothly as 4-3, while using only two IC's. Of course, the negative is if it really won't have much of an impact at all, and it's just a total waste of time. Also, I apologize in advance if this was suggested already and I didn't read it.

Oh, and I read a bit of the first page, and 7-0 games could be terribly messy.

[EmpTyger]

[Thought I posted this already, but my Internet connection seems to be a little blippy…]

Re N326: Perhaps it might be better to hear from the newbies from that game, rather than extrapolate from my own opinions. I’m also realizing I might be veering too much into the specific and away from the general by referencing just one game; a discussion of that specificity might be better suited to post-game analysis within the thread itself. I believe that N326 was the first of the 2:5 games to end, so it might be worthwhile to analyze a larger data set when more have concluded. With that said, however:

They had a fruitful day 1 of learning experience sure, but day 2 was a pointless technicality that didn't do anything but hand the scum a win.

Actually, the problem I saw with N326 was that D1 consisted of the ICs trying to convince 1 newbie about certain aspects of how the game is played while that newbie refused to accept, thinking that the ICs were mafia. I’m not really sure how fruitful that was. (And perhaps I erred in my approach- and right now I am realizing in retrospect I should have definitely have checked in with the mod.) D1 had discussions more suited to the Mafia Discussion board than a Newbie Game thread, became highly theoretical, involved a fraction of the town, and dominated the game. And while D2 certainly had a lesson that was imparted, it seems it was a lesson that shouldn’t have needed to take 3 weeks to be taught.

I’m not looking for perfect play; I don’t even expect perfect play to be taught. I’m just hoping *something* positive is being taught, and I’m not sure how much got taught by N326. (And this also might be a long-term question rather than one answerable immediately.) Maybe I’m just bitter because I feel kind of bad giving harsh postgame here’s-what-you-should-have-done feedback to players who didn’t really have any real chance to do anything differently.

As for the spout-a-lot-of-information-at-the-start-of-D1 approach, I’m not a fan. First of all, without context, it loses much of meaning. Second of all, I’m still skeptical of how much attention would be paid to an IC with the ratios as they are. But most importantly, I don’t really think it’s an effective way to teach. If it were merely a matter of dispensing information, then why do we not just have newbies read some old games and forgo newbie games? Because it’s one thing to *say* that D1 begins with random voting and proceeds to a lynch, and that one careless vote in lynch-or-lose ends the game, and what WIFOM means. But it’s another thing for the newbies to *learn* these things. The newbie games ideally allow newbies to experience these lessons, so that they are learned in a very effective manner; for the reasons I’ve mentioned, I don’t think a 2:5 ratio would enable those experiences.

[Raffles]

ICs can already play in multiple games..

What's the max number of IC games?