Policy Discussion: "Normal"

[Kelly Chen]

The Normal definition used to say (or said elsewhere) that werewolf flavor was admissible.

I think inventor is much closer to themed than a governor (which I assume is what is meant by mayor). I'm split on gunsmith vs. hider since the former requires the concept of "has a gun" while the latter does seem like a multi-part role.


Anyway I propose thirty-two forums plus Road to Rome.

a.

<=12p vs.

b.

>12p

c.

Mafia/werewolf flavor vs.

d.

Other flavor

e.

Standard mafia rules vs.

f.

Mafia mutations

g.

Normal roles vs.

h.

Complicated crazy roles

i.

Open/semi-open vs.

j.

Closed

Frankly, I wouldn't want to see something like "futuristic mafia", with basic roles, standard mafia rules, with no source material to look up and with flavor that in no way affects the day discussion in the "theme games" forum; if I sign up for a game in a themed forum, I would be kind of disapointed to see a regular mafia game like that with just a tiny amount of flavor that has no effect on game play in any way to be considered a "theme" game.

I agree with your post, though I note that the current situation is that instead of being disappointed by themes that are too normal, you can be disappointed by normals that are too themed.


Mafia 43 (Married...) is an example of a game that arguably has mafia flavor but in my opinion can't usefully be called "normal" when you look at the claims the scum had to come up with. There are probably better examples...

[Thestatusquo]

53 was not normal by any stretch of the imagination.

[Kelly Chen]

I would say 53 was a BCEHI and themed due to the H (role selection). Whereas 43 was arguably BCEGJ which should be normal. (Due to the wedding theme I guess BDEGJ is arguable, in which case 43 wasn't normal due to that.)

What I want to say is that even if 43 is considered mafia-themed and with normal roles, the theme was so heavy (and with the setup closed) that it's not useful to call it "normal" except to players who really are seeking out games with a mafia theme, as opposed to games that simply don't have tricks to them.

[Zindaras]

But mith's "normal" vision is different than mine and

he's the boss

. Disagreeing is fine, ignoring rules because you disagree

isn't

.

Have you contemplated murdering him in his sleep? That usually works when you disagree with someone.

Not that I'd know, obviously.

I don't think we should have these rules for Newbie games. The Newbie setup is completely open. The PMs are (or should be) listed in the first post. You could, potentially, have a Shower Curtain-Yuri Gagarin scumgroup, and it should still cause no confusion, because the setup is 100% open.

I ran an offending Newbie game, and the flavour didn't hurt the game at all (at least, not as far as I have noticed). In fact, I'd say it probably helped the game by making the flavour somewhat more interesting and allowing the mod more freedom in writing Death Posts.

Same goes for other Open Games. Did the role names in Jungle Republic confuse anyone? For Smalltown 2: Scrubs Mafia (I know it's in Coney Island, but that's besides the point for now), does the fact that it's based on Scrubs in any way matter? No, because all the Role PMs are in the first post.

For the rest, I think I'm going to agree with Yossy here.

[Yamahako]

What if you defined a Mini Normal as:
A Game with standard roles (to be defined) that has flavor limited to public domain or original material.
and a Mini Theme as:
A Game with non-standard roles, or a game that has flavor based in non-original or copyrighted material.

Public domain is rather easy to define, as is original material. Additionally, it wouldn't be terribly difficult to define a set of roles as "standard" that people should be familiar with enough to play the game. A Mini Theme game would just be any game that doesn't fit in the Mini Normal category.

[Yamahako]

maybe even change public domain to non-published. I guess Goldie-locks and the Three Bears might even be too themed...

[mith]

Quick comment while I'm taking a break:

For Smalltown 2: Scrubs Mafia (I know it's in Coney Island, but that's besides the point for now), does the fact that it's based on Scrubs in any way matter? No, because all the Role PMs are in the first post.

In that case, it doesn't matter to the gameplay. It could matter to the enjoyment value. That's the whole point, isn't it? If it didn't matter

at all

, why have the themes for open games? If you're going to argue that a little flavor adds something to the entertainment value, surely you have to accept that a little flavor could just as easily take away from the entertainment value. Eddie Izzard is great, but if you didn't know who he was, would you want to play in an Eddie Izzard themed game over a Mafia themed game, all other things being equal? (Ok, that's a bad example, you'd probably research Eddie Izzard, see how cool he is, and be all for playing in an Eddie Izzard game. So replace it with something you hate.)

(Btw, I think the fact that games like Smalltown 2 exist disproves Yos's argument that we wouldn't have basic-but-flavored games if we enforce the current rules.)

[mith]

I don't think we should have these rules for Newbie games. The Newbie setup is completely open. The PMs are (or should be) listed in the first post. You could, potentially, have a Shower Curtain-Yuri Gagarin scumgroup, and it should still cause no confusion, because the setup is 100% open.

Oh yeah, I forgot one more point:

f. Some of the flavors are just plain stupid.

[Rainbow Brite]

mith's definition of normal makes sense, and it nicely and unambiguously defines "pure mafia" as it were.

re: "standard roles", if we're going to use a phrase like that, we need to explicitly define and list them. any guarantees about setup have an in-game effect and part of the point of a normal game is to eliminate ogm as far as possible. also, where do standard roles end and nonstandard roles being - cop's fine, but is naive cop? insane? random? mason's fine, but is scum mason? recruiting mason?

i'm not suggesting what that list should be, just that there should be a list, otherwise the restriction is effectively meaningless.

however -

is there any demand to play "pure" games?

given the choice between playing a game with a theme that appeals to me, a theme that's meaningless to me, and a themeless game, i'm always going to go for the appealing theme. people

expect

flavour and flair in design from their mafia games now. IF we had pure mafia-themed games in the normal, and standard-setup games with mild themes in coney island, what would be the relative player take-up rate?

is there any demand to mod "pure" games?

for

most

mods, the attraction of modding their game is the design of the game, not the process of running it. for those who mod for the process of running it and giving back to the community, they like to stamp it with a bit of their identity. people like their games to be appreciated and remembered, and whilst normal games can be appreciated and remembered,

it's not for the modding

, it's for the game situations.

after all, why define "normal" as something that, overwhelmingly, isn't wanted by players?

if we're going to define normal as that, we need a further distinction between "current standard" (ie themed game with named roles (whether from a pre-existing theme, with researching and outguessing flavour, or fruit-themed roles etc) but no rules variations or original/massivedly obscure roles) from "experimental/nonstandard" games. because nowadays, named roles and some sort of flavour

are

standard.

[Mr. Flay]

I'm sorry, but if only

certain

long-existing Roles are allowed in Normal games, then we

need

an explicit list that's been voted on/come from On High. Susp. in Sicily had a Gunsmith, which I assumed was a variant Cop (and again, was approved by the List Mod). The Role's dead now, of course, so I'm not giving anything away on the setup.

I agree, actually, on Newbie Games not being flavored at all. But I don't see what's so hard about splitting the lists, if we define once and for all what falls into what, explicitly.

Re: Brite, I think there IS demand for Normal Games of all sizes. I just don't think it's 50% - more like 1/3, which is why a Normal/Themed/Mutated split makes sense to me.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

(Btw, I think the fact that games like Smalltown 2 exist disproves Yos's argument that we wouldn't have basic-but-flavored games if we enforce the current rules.)

Smalltown isn't basic though. It has a game-changing mechanic. There are tons of games with one major change but otherwise a basic setup. (Space Monkey, Kingmaker. etc...)

I agree with [57].

[mith]

Ah, didn't read it closely enough. Nevermind.

[Mr. Flay]

Oh, duh. It just occurred to me that this:

A normal game does not have to have any other roles other than Mafia and Townies. If it includes other roles, they should mostly be considered standard, such as Cop, Doctor, Vigilante, Roleblocker, Mason, Traitor, Serial Killer.

Could be leading some people to think "Any Role that is on the Wiki is Standard." Granted, that doesn't excuse Early Morning and the like, but I'll try to be helpful instead of obstructionist and come up with my personal bright-line list:

Absolutely Normal:

Cop, Doctor, Vigilante, Roleblocker, Mason, Serial Killer (incl. Arsonist), Mafia, Townie, Godfather.

I'd argue with Traitor, as it involves a weird alignment rule. The old wiki even listed Godfather, but not Roleblocker, Vigilante or Traitor, under Basic Roles.

Almost Certainly Normal:

Non-Sane Cops (except Random), Less Effective Doctors (incl. Bodyguard), Traitor/Spy, Role Cops such as Gunsmith/Burglar/FBI Agent/Psychiatrist, Bomb/Army Veteran (variant Vigilante), Nurse, Deputy, Mayor/Governor/whatever-we-call-the-Stop-a-Lynch-role, Werewolves and the above role names that go with them.

Maybe Normal:

Tracker/Lassie/Watcher, Hider, Cowardly Reporter, Commuter, Post-Restricted Role, Siblings/Lovers, Traitor, Bulletproof Townie, Cult (sorry PJ), Miller.

Probably Not Normal:

Scum Mason, Neighborhood Watch, Retired Cop, Inventor, Jester, Actor/Fool/Priest/Vote-Modifying Roles, Survivor, TFPTSLBOOIA, Switch/Framer/Target Changing Roles.

[Zindaras]

In that case, it doesn't matter to the gameplay. It could matter to the enjoyment value. That's the whole point, isn't it? If it didn't matter

at all

, why have the themes for open games? If you're going to argue that a little flavor adds something to the entertainment value, surely you have to accept that a little flavor could just as easily take away from the entertainment value.

I'll accept that. I've noticed the same thing on WotC: there are many players who prefer simple non-flavour games over the themed games. I don't support making every game flavourful.

I don't think it matters for the open games. I do, however, think it matters for closed games. I can live with your more strict interpretation of themed, as well. Personally, I don't think Futuristic or Ogre Village are strictly bad for the Normal List, as long as

only

the flavour is different. No roles like Ogre Guardsmen, just a Cop, or maybe an Ogre Cop.

Eddie Izzard is great, but if you didn't know who he was, would you want to play in an Eddie Izzard themed game over a Mafia themed game, all other things being equal? (Ok, that's a bad example, you'd probably research Eddie Izzard, see how cool he is, and be all for playing in an Eddie Izzard game. So replace it with something you hate.)

Eddie Izzard is awesome. A friend sent me a couple of things. He's funny.

Oh yeah, I forgot one more point:

f. Some of the flavors are just plain stupid.

Yeah, I specifically chose the silliest possible flavour to prove the point that flavour doesn't complicate things in an open setup.

[Kelly Chen]

Smalltown 2 isn't basic enough even if you strip out the flavor? Why not? mith has said an open role (split role/alignment) game could be normal.

I don't agree with mith's point that flavor in an open setup could hurt it, unless it's something really pretty offensive. I signed up to play Scrubs because I knew it would be an open setup. I don't know anything about Scrubs except what some of the characters look like from the commercials. The worst I figure could happen is that I miss some game-irrelevant jokes.

I have even less idea what Eddie Izzard is, but I don't see the problem if it's an open setup. Wouldn't it at least be nice to play with people who ARE interested in the particular flavor?


Regarding roles...

I don't like saying Arsonist is relatively normal because then Fireman probably is too.

I suspect burglars, chefs, and inventor type roles are better off not normal. They all require a little mod creativity don't they?

I believe tracker is definitely normal! And retired cop is a backup cop isn't it? I think that's fine... I've always rather disliked the cowardly reporter role as an inelegant mix of a hiderish role and a watcher. I'd rather see watchers in normal games than cowardly reporters.

If we do come up with a list of roles that definitely can be accepted then we could take the next step and write the official role PMs that go with them. Or at least the official format of such role PMs.

[Mr. Flay]

Arsonist is just a variant SK, isn't it? I don't see a difference between "SK", "Arsonist", "Psychopath", and "Cannibal" except in their kill methods. If those variations are not okay, I *definitely* want to know that. And their respective investigators just are Role Cops...

On the flip side of this discussion, Open Games are supposed to be Normal, but I definitely wouldn't call Vengeful "Normal", as the mechanics are rather weird. So we really need to get a grip on this...

[gorckat]

@Mr Flay- I'm playing my first non-Newbie Normal and if there is anything not on your first list of normal roles, then I'm gonna feel a little...well- pissed.



I, personally, like the idea of straight-up normals with nothing but Mr Flay's "Absolutely Normal" roles. It seems to me you win those games by having fun and playing better, not being the first to guess the setup or what roles are around.

In terms of flavor messing with a Newbie, 309 had all role PMs posted. The cop and doc had names assigned to them. The scum and townie PMs had a list of possible names. The cop outed himself

page one

by saying it would be hard for scum to fake claim since names were assigned. (Scum still lost, but we were both newbs )

I'm in a Newbie mini on another site. Its theme is High School Talent Show. Newbie friendly it is not (imho), since each player has a unique role and PM, plus there was a little debate over whether a certain roles could be in a Newbie there (roles you will not find in a Newbie here, although I am comparing 7 vs 12 man setups).

I think there should be a list of "Normal" roles. I think a Normal should not assign names to roles- you are the role, the role is you. Generic townie PM should always be posted. Standard role PMs for Normals makes sense, as well.

On the flavor side, only the setup and mod's posts should have any flavor in a Normal- it shouldn't enter into the role PM, affect play or affect the ability to claim. It should be only a touch of flair that makes getting to what role the person lynched or found dead had more entertaining.

[/opinion]

[ac1983fan]

Arsonist is just a variant SK, isn't it? I don't see a difference between "SK", "Arsonist", "Psychopath", and "Cannibal" except in their kill methods. If those variations are not okay, I *definitely* want to know that. And their respective investigators just are Role Cops...

On the flip side of this discussion, Open Games are supposed to be Normal, but I definitely wouldn't call Vengeful "Normal", as the mechanics are rather weird. So we really need to get a grip on this...

The SK variations all have opposite counterparts on the townside. Arson has the firefighter, psychopath has the psychiatrist, and cannibal has the FBI agent.

[Kelly Chen]

Arsonist is just a variant SK, isn't it? I don't see a difference between "SK", "Arsonist", "Psychopath", and "Cannibal" except in their kill methods. If those variations are not okay, I *definitely* want to know that. And their respective investigators just are Role Cops...

Well, personally I would never complain about an arsonist. I would raise my eyebrow at a claimed fireman though. And if I were making a list of roles likely to occur in a normal game I'm pretty sure I wouldn't put fireman very high on it.

On the flip side of this discussion, Open Games are supposed to be Normal, but I definitely wouldn't call Vengeful "Normal", as the mechanics are rather weird. So we really need to get a grip on this...

Good point. That's like ACFHI. And if Vengeful is defined as not normal we can be pretty sure it won't be played anymore, since people won't use mini theme modding slots to run a 5p game.

[Zindaras]

(Btw, I think the fact that games like Smalltown 2 exist disproves Yos's argument that we wouldn't have basic-but-flavored games if we enforce the current rules.)

Smalltown isn't basic though. It has a game-changing mechanic. There are tons of games with one major change but otherwise a basic setup. (Space Monkey, Kingmaker. etc...)

What about Mafia 56? The game's run in the Normal forums, but has a major rule change (no role reveal post death).

[Yosarian2]

Oh, duh. It just occurred to me that this:

A normal game does not have to have any other roles other than Mafia and Townies. If it includes other roles, they should mostly be considered standard, such as Cop, Doctor, Vigilante, Roleblocker, Mason, Traitor, Serial Killer.

Could be leading some people to think "Any Role that is on the Wiki is Standard." Granted, that doesn't excuse Early Morning and the like, but I'll try to be helpful instead of obstructionist and come up with my personal bright-line list:

Absolutely Normal:

Cop, Doctor, Vigilante, Roleblocker, Mason, Serial Killer (incl. Arsonist), Mafia, Townie, Godfather.

I'd argue with Traitor, as it involves a weird alignment rule. The old wiki even listed Godfather, but not Roleblocker, Vigilante or Traitor, under Basic Roles.

Almost Certainly Normal:

Non-Sane Cops (except Random), Less Effective Doctors (incl. Bodyguard), Traitor/Spy, Role Cops such as Gunsmith/Burglar/FBI Agent/Psychiatrist, Bomb/Army Veteran (variant Vigilante), Nurse, Deputy, Mayor/Governor/whatever-we-call-the-Stop-a-Lynch-role, Werewolves and the above role names that go with them.

Maybe Normal:

Tracker/Lassie/Watcher, Hider, Cowardly Reporter, Commuter, Post-Restricted Role, Siblings/Lovers, Traitor, Bulletproof Townie, Cult (sorry PJ), Miller.

Probably Not Normal:

Scum Mason, Neighborhood Watch, Retired Cop, Inventor, Jester, Actor/Fool/Priest/Vote-Modifying Roles, Survivor, TFPTSLBOOIA, Switch/Framer/Target Changing Roles.

I've got to say that I strongly disagree with "scum mason" and "inventor" not being normal roles, especally scum mason. If masons are normal roles, then the town should NOT be able to rule out the POSSIBILITY of a scum mason being in a normal game. Not a common role, sure, but as soon as people claim mason, the town shouldn't be able to instatnly rule out the possibility of a scum mason just because the game happens to be in the Little Italy forum. Same for roles like "miller" and things like that; they're not common, certanly, but I think it's quite important for game balance purposes that it be commonly understood that such roles are at least POSSIBLE.

I suggest we drop the whole concept of "normal roles", at least as a rule, perhaps just make it a vauge reccomendation. Any limitations or list of possible roles tends to give the town information about what might be in a closed game, and I think that's probably not a good thing in general.

If i had to define "normal role", I'd probaby say "Any role that is commonly understood and mostly universal". That is, I would certanly consider a gunsmith or a scum mason to be a normal role, because if I see a death scene, and the mod says Fritzer (gunsmith, pro-town) or Mr. Flay(scum mason) or anything like that, I and everyone else will instantly know what the mod's talking about and will have a pretty good idea already of what those roles might mean or how their existance might affect the stratagy. I know what a gunsmith and a scum mason are, and if I see one or if I get the role I know what to do with it or about it, without the mod having to explain any more, which I would think would make it a "standard" role.

The other problem is that making a list of standard roles would limit the development of the game of mafia. For example, I recently created a "jailkeeper" role for an open role game, which both protects and roleblocks the target, and it's been used in at least one other game since then. It's a pretty simple role, pretty intuitive, and I think it had distint advantages over the more "normal" roles, like if there's a jailkeeper instead of a doc it makes questions like "when should the cop claim" a lot more interesting. But if we make a list now, then a role like that won't ever BECOME normal. And that's true for a lot of things; a lot of roles that are "normal" now were invented my a specific mod at a specific point in time, and they've added a lot to the game, I think. But if we don't allow mods to try out roles like that in "normal" otherwise basic mafia-themed games, those roles probably won't ever become normal.

[Yosarian2]

On the flip side of this discussion, Open Games are supposed to be Normal, but I definitely wouldn't call Vengeful "Normal", as the mechanics are rather weird. So we really need to get a grip on this...

Well, I think open games are supposed to have a normal

theme

, and to not be too "wierd", but many of them have unusual roles and such.

[Mr. Flay]

And yet, mith's opening post on the Open Setup Discussion and Nominations thread says, "In order to be eligible for the Open Game list, a setup must fit the Normal Game definition. " Maybe it just needs to be updated; my point is that things aren't as clearcut as they appear at first.

And I'm not proposing that we Freeze in Stone For All Time the list of Basic/Normal Roles, only that without

some

concrete list, ambiguity and unintentional violations will continue to occur. I'd personally support your Jailkeeper (Mafia 37 in New York had a similar role, but it was part of the Mayor's lynch-protection) if it was nominated for later addition. But mith has a point, in that Normal Games shouldn't require any research beyond maybe going to the Wiki, and a role name should mean the same thing every time. Even if the Wiki does have to list the possible variations that are allowed...

[Yosarian2]

(shrug) I still think that any list would be a bad idea, and that perhaps that rule should just be lost or at least softened. Perhaps just change it to "it is recommended that most or all of the roles in a normal game be commonly understood standardized roles", or something like that, rather then a hard-and-fast rule that's never really been enforced.

[superstring91]

On the flavor side, only the setup and mod's posts should have any flavor in a Normal- it shouldn't enter into the role PM, affect play or affect the ability to claim. It should be only a touch of flair that makes getting to what role the person lynched or found dead had more entertaining.

[/opinion]

so, you're saying that you would prefer role PMs to say something like:

You are the serial killer. you can target 1 person every night to be killed. you win when you are the sole survivor.

over

You are a Frenchman, and you are sick of those damn Italians, with their pasta, and their olives, and their gardens, and their olive gardens. Enough is enough. Your goal is to get rid of them all. You can kill once per night. You win when everyone else is dead.

i think flavor in a role PM creates the character. it provides motive. it makes being that character more fun