Policy Discussion: "Normal"

[Kelly Chen]

superstring, no one would ever claim their SK flavor EDIT:

except when a scumbag seems to be claiming psychiatrist

. What that PM says is totally unimportant to gameplay.

But let's say that was a cop role PM.

You are a Frenchman, and you are sick of those damn Italians, with their pasta, and their olives, and their gardens, and their olive gardens. Enough is enough.

You can investigate somebody every night and see if they're Italian scum. You win with the town.

Now if I'm scum and think I'm going to try fake claiming cop, or even some other role, if you or someone ask me what kind of flavor I have, and I just make something up, there's a good chance you'll decide I'm lying because it's not similar to your real flavor.

That is a bad thing for a normal game.

[mith]

I wouldn't say

never

. SK claims aren't completely unheard of... right Thok?

[superstring91]

superstring, no one would ever claim their SK flavor. What that PM says is totally unimportant to gameplay.

But let's say that was a cop role PM.

You are a Frenchman, and you are sick of those damn Italians, with their pasta, and their olives, and their gardens, and their olive gardens. Enough is enough.

You can investigate somebody every night and see if they're Italian scum. You win with the town.

Now if I'm scum and think I'm going to try fake claiming cop, or even some other role, if you or someone ask me what kind of flavor I have, and I just make something up, there's a good chance you'll decide I'm lying because it's not similar to your real flavor.

That is a bad thing for a normal game.

i suppose that role flavor isnt completely important to game play, but I'm a bit of a writer, and i like to give characters motive. and in this case, the "frenchman" SK does have releveance to the flavor:
the frenchman role i posted is from a game im designing, and frenchman sightings were mentioned in the flavor intro

i used this to exemplify a flavored PM as opposed to a mechanical, cut & dry PM

EDIT: this is not supposed to be a discussion on what goes into PMs, but how to distinguish normal from themed games,
i suppose that PMs go a bit into the theme, but in most cases, it's not consequential

[superstring91]

forgot to add:

What that PM says is totally unimportant to gameplay.

unimportant to gameplay, but makes it more enjoyable for the player, which ultimately affects gameplay.
and i think that most players like the game better if they have a mod who puts time and effort into what he is doing, which is ultimately telling a story[of course based on the actions of the town]

[Mert]

I always thought that a Normal could have a themed setting, but not themed characters.

For example, mafia in London or mafia in Neo Tokyo 2046AD or mafia in 1920s Germany or whatever. As long as the mechanic is effectively mafia in town killing townies then to a certain extent it doesn't matter if every player is a robot or is a badger or a kitchen utensil because there are still mafiates and there are still townies.

It's clear that I am wrong under the current definition, but I would have thought that theming the 'backdrop' to the game was fine so long as the characters were still within the remit of the (presumably soon-to-be-specified) predefined roles. Obviously this means player-specific role names are a no-no too.

That said, I think Kelly Chen makes a good point about ease of fake claiming the flavour you give, so there would be a need to be careful. Perhaps death scenes etc could have their setting themed, but the PMs must be standard or at least unthemed?

[Mr. Flay]

I could see including 'backdrop' (good word) thematic setting as okay in Normals so long as all the Roles and Role PMs are completely standard. The Mafia in Sicily is much like the Mafia in New York or Chicago, is much like the Russian Mob, is much like the Irish Mob, etc...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cr ... anizations contains a wealth of backdrop information, very little of which would actually have any effect on gameplay so long as the role PMs were neutral, right mith? Or are we all playing in 1940s Sicily/New York?

[superstring91]

so, role PMs in a normal have to be cold? i don't like that at all

as i said earlier, in my view, the mod is a story teller. that story is about the players, who assume roles and become characters. its the mod's responsibility to bring them to life. one way to enhance these characters is through the PM.

i dont think a game should be classified as themed by its role PMs

[Mert]

as i said earlier, in my view, the mod is a story teller. that story is about the players, who assume roles and become characters. its the mod's responsibility to bring them to life. one way to enhance these characters is through the PM.

I don't entirely agree. I think it is the mod's role to bring the story to life, but it's the players and their imaginations that ascertain how much those players get from the story. I would imagine that if I got a "cold" role PM saying I was the doctor, I could apply that to whatever 'backdrop' theme was given to the game without needing a mod-written PM spelling it out for me.

But that's just me, I'm sure some people love getting their role PM dripping in loads of flavour etc - I just think the flavour of the game itself and the setting of it is more important for building a storyline than the individual role PMs.

As I say though, that's just my personal opinion and I'm sure there are others.

[Rainbow Brite]

Oh, duh. It just occurred to me that this:

A normal game does not have to have any other roles other than Mafia and Townies. If it includes other roles, they should mostly be considered standard, such as Cop, Doctor, Vigilante, Roleblocker, Mason, Traitor, Serial Killer.

Could be leading some people to think "Any Role that is on the Wiki is Standard." Granted, that doesn't excuse Early Morning and the like, but I'll try to be helpful instead of obstructionist and come up with my personal bright-line list:

Absolutely Normal:

Cop, Doctor, Vigilante, Roleblocker, Mason, Serial Killer (incl. Arsonist), Mafia, Townie, Godfather.

I'd argue with Traitor, as it involves a weird alignment rule. The old wiki even listed Godfather, but not Roleblocker, Vigilante or Traitor, under Basic Roles.

if someone said to me "this game only contains standard roles", this is what i would consider "standard roles".

Almost Certainly Normal:

Non-Sane Cops (except Random), Less Effective Doctors (incl. Bodyguard), Traitor/Spy, Role Cops such as Gunsmith/Burglar/FBI Agent/Psychiatrist, Bomb/Army Veteran (variant Vigilante), Nurse, Deputy, Mayor/Governor/whatever-we-call-the-Stop-a-Lynch-role, Werewolves and the above role names that go with them.

several of these i would consider, well, very unusual at the least. i haven't seen fbi agent in a game

ever

. ok, it might be in the wiki, ok it might be a minor variation on other roles, ok it might have been relatively standard three years ago - but i wouldn't consider it a "standard role".

(shrug) I still think that any list would be a bad idea, and that perhaps that rule should just be lost or at least softened. Perhaps just change it to "it is recommended that most or all of the roles in a normal game be commonly understood standardized roles", or something like that, rather then a hard-and-fast rule that's never really been enforced.

but then we're back to a circular situation, as what

is

commonly understood and standardised? if i claimed "angel" having come from a site where mafia usually features two groups, mafia and werewolves, i'd argue very strongly that angels

are

commonly understood and standardised. if i'd been playing for five years, i could easily consider fbi agent CUAS, but most recent players (i'd wager) wouldn't.

I've got to say that I strongly disagree with "scum mason" and "inventor" not being normal roles, especally scum mason. If masons are normal roles, then the town should NOT be able to rule out the POSSIBILITY of a scum mason being in a normal game. Not a common role, sure, but as soon as people claim mason, the town shouldn't be able to instatnly rule out the possibility of a scum mason just because the game happens to be in the Little Italy forum. Same for roles like "miller" and things like that; they're not common, certanly, but I think it's quite important for game balance purposes that it be commonly understood that such roles are at least POSSIBLE.

i disagree with this philosophy, which boils down to "you should have to question everything". if we have an understanding of what constitutes "standard roles", playing a game with standard roles only means we know what kind of bastard-modding (and scum masons are most definitely bastard-modding) is off limits. if we

don't

know what's off-limits, what's the point of putting any restrictions on what roles are available, and how do we know what "normal game" actually means?

also, what does inventor do precisely? it's not quite as bad as cult but i've seen variations on the theme. it's clearly not "standardised" in the same way cop is.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I should point out that millers still get lynched. Question everything is all fine and dandy but if the odds are too low it is not going to affect people's play.

[Rainbow Brite]

I should point out that millers still get lynched. Question everything is all fine and dandy but if the odds are too low it is not going to affect people's play.

claiming miller buys pretty much exactly zero goodwill. if you investigate as scum, you're getting lynched.

edit: millers shouldn't know they're millers anyway. :/

[Kelly Chen]

forgot to add:

What that PM says is totally unimportant to gameplay.

unimportant to gameplay, but makes it more enjoyable for the player, which ultimately affects gameplay.
and i think that most players like the game better if they have a mod who puts time and effort into what he is doing, which is ultimately telling a story[of course based on the actions of the town]

I don't know if you're seeing my point here. I'm saying it doesn't matter what flavor you give to a scum role; that won't break anything. But if you give flavor to town roles you run the risk that the town may be able to find scum just by scum's inability to make believable claims. In my opinion there should never be any risk of this happening in a "normal" game.

[superstring91]

as i said earlier, in my view, the mod is a story teller. that story is about the players, who assume roles and become characters. its the mod's responsibility to bring them to life. one way to enhance these characters is through the PM.

I don't entirely agree. I think it is the mod's role to bring the story to life, but it's the players and their imaginations that ascertain how much those players get from the story. I would imagine that if I got a "cold" role PM saying I was the doctor, I could apply that to whatever 'backdrop' theme was given to the game without needing a mod-written PM spelling it out for me.

But that's just me, I'm sure some people love getting their role PM dripping in loads of flavour etc - I just think the flavour of the game itself and the setting of it is more important for building a storyline than the individual role PMs.

As I say though, that's just my personal opinion and I'm sure there are others.

i agree a lot with what you've said here, and i absoleutely agree that the flavor of the game, and setting are more important, but Role PM is the icing, the cherry on top, if you will.

i love PMs with flavor. and i can do fine with a cold PM, but i prefer to write flavorful PMs

[MrBuddyLee]

It'd be nice to have a few games that didn't hinge on the believability of claims for a change. Normal is normal.

[Adele]

SK, Ok
Psycho, not so. Not if there's a Shrink.

I move that movable alignments are decidedly

ab

normal.

If you can't deal with a bit of flavour in the morning posts, PRs or oneshots, I really don't think that hearing "okay,

now

you have to do X Y Z to win" is going to confuse and anger you - and put you right off it.

[gorckat]

@superstring: If there Normals are determined to have a standard list of available roles with standard PMs, then the next step up the complexity scale is Themed "Normals" where flavor is used. It could range from being just flowery roles and maybe individual names all the way up to the line between themed and mutated/experimental type games.

[StallingChamp]

*sigh* Well, guess my "Normal" game with a non- {book/movie/etc...} theme has to be redone...

[Yosarian2]

edit: millers shouldn't know they're millers anyway. :/

That I strongly disagree with. A miller that knows he's a miller and can therefore perhaps try to somehow avoid getting cop investigated or whatever is a much more interesting role.

[Yosarian2]

(shrug) I still think that any list would be a bad idea, and that perhaps that rule should just be lost or at least softened. Perhaps just change it to "it is recommended that most or all of the roles in a normal game be commonly understood standardized roles", or something like that, rather then a hard-and-fast rule that's never really been enforced.

but then we're back to a circular situation, as what

is

commonly understood and standardised? if i claimed "angel" having come from a site where mafia usually features two groups, mafia and werewolves, i'd argue very strongly that angels

are

commonly understood and standardised. if i'd been playing for five years, i could easily consider fbi agent CUAS, but most recent players (i'd wager) wouldn't.

Well, if that's what we're going to do, then I wouldn't mind having a list of "normal" roles, but I still strongly disagree that there should be a hard rule about it.

disagree with this philosophy, which boils down to "you should have to question everything". if we have an understanding of what constitutes "standard roles", playing a game with standard roles only means we know what kind of bastard-modding (and scum masons are most definitely bastard-modding) is off limits. if we

don't

know what's off-limits, what's the point of putting any restrictions on what roles are available, and how do we know what "normal game" actually means?

Well, it's not so much that you should have to question everything, but I tend to think that totally eliminating even the possibility of scum masons tends to unbalance the mason role in most games. If the mod wants to TELL the masons that "you know with 100% confidence that your parters are all pro-town" then that's fine, but that shouldn't be the only option.

On another note, if we do try to make a list and strictly follow and enforce it (which I still think is a bad idea), minor variations on standard roles should be fine in a normal game. That is, if vig is fine, then one-shot vig, can-kill-on-odd-numbered-nights vig, ect, should also be fine. If Godfather is on the list, then "Godfather-that is immune to cop investigations", "Godfather that is immune to nightkills", "Godfather that is immune to both cop investigations and nightkills", "Godfather that does not know if he is investigation/nightkill immue or not", ect, should all be fine. If vig is on the list of normal roles and miller is on the list of normal roles, then a miller-vig should also be an acceptable normal role.

I tend to think there's a lot of flexability in what kinds of roles can be in a game and still have it be a normal game, and I don't think we should lose that.

[superstring91]

@superstring: If there Normals are determined to have a standard list of available roles with standard PMs, then the next step up the complexity scale is Themed "Normals" where flavor is used. It could range from being just flowery roles and maybe individual names all the way up to the line between themed and mutated/experimental type games.

i hate that idea.
"normal" should not be standard.
if all normal games were created on this basis, then every game would be the same. nothing would change.
modding is an art. an art of creation. not an art of copying and pasting.
i can see having a list of "normal" roles, and perhaps some

suggested

PMs but saying "these are the roles you can use, and these are the only role PMs you can use for them" is wrong. it takes all the fun out of modding, and doesnt teach new mods anything.

i dont think having a "themed normal" section is the answer.
i think the answer is drawing the line between theme and flavor. this should be done by restriction of roles, and mechanics.
if there is anything with special roles, or special mechanics[most likely brought about by roles] those games should go in the "theme" section

[Yosarian2]

By the way, I agree with superstring. Flavor is fine in role PM's. There's no sense in trying to require mafia games to be univerally as bland as possible.

[StallingChamp]

Before I remake my entire set-up, can I get a straight answer on whether a non-published theme (example: Family Mafia, with roles such as "Mother", "Bother", etc...) is ok in a normal?

[Blackberry]

When I first started modding I asked MeMe whether I should mod my Berry Game in the Normal or Themed...

The way that it was explained to me:

A themed game is one in which a player may need

extensive knowledge

about the topic (for claims and such).

Such as a game based on a TV SHOW, BOOK or CARTOON.

[Mr. Flay]

Stalling: yes, that's themed by current definitions, esp if "Mother" = Doc and Father = Roleblocker, for example.

[MeMe]

When I first started modding I asked MeMe whether I should mod my Berry Game in the Normal or Themed...

The way that it was explained to me:

A themed game is one in which a player may need

extensive knowledge

about the topic (for claims and such).

Such as a game based on a TV SHOW, BOOK or CARTOON.

I'm

pretty

sure this was both before we had two separate forums and before mith drew the line clearly -- but I'll not forget that you just tried to get me in trouble.